Burnley Grammar School

What I've noticed is that when a female comes along and states her position on what she considers an acceptable form of PE dress for boys, and mentions the dreaded bare chest herself like Janet did, then it seems to be even worse to some than when the men say it for some reason. I don't know if I've imagined that. Some of what Janet said rings right to me, we always had female teachers lingering around the boys changing for PE lessons in our middle school because there was no alternative really.

It's getting ever harder it seems for people to clearly separate the present from the past and judge each accordingly. Thus we get bad reactions to the likes of people such as Janet for instance who says she was looking in on her primary class boys changing and even showering in the 70s without realising, even if we were there ourselves at the time, that it was just rather normal behaviour back then to do so and there was unlikely to be anymore to it than that.

Well I've never had Greg2 down as a shill of Alan's so that was amusing to read here tonight.

Look, I've been quite sympathetic to some of what Alan says in the past but that doesn't mean I am not prepared to be critical when I think needs must.

I'm looking forward to hearing from Craig about the Easter Monday barechest run from his whatsapp group he was mentioning here a few days ago, so if you are reading this Craig let us know how it went and if you got those numbers you spoke of.

To Chris G.

Don't start all that nonsense again please, and I'm no 'sock puppet' as you put it either and have big disagreements with Alan on a lot of issues. I'm not sure too many people are posting from coffee shops or public libraries at the times shown in those posts either and certainly not on Easter Sundays like the Janet one. From what I can see my IP address has remained the same with each post so far. The IP address tagging seems to have been working well to weed out the worst excesses here.

Comment by: Chris G on 1st April 2024 at 15:46


"Spring has sprung, and the SockPuppets seem to be emerging from Hibernation, not that they ever really went away, despite the introduction of IP address monitoring. I can get a new IP address just by visiting my local public library, sipping a coffee in Starbucks or Costa, spending time in a Hospital Waiting Room or re-booting my Router if I can't be bothered to go out."

Just to put this boring old cannard to rest, once and for all. I do not go to the public library at 4.00 in the morning (or nearly 9.00 p.m. on Easter Monday), to "change my IP number".

My messages always have my email address on them, and I don't write for anybody else.

I hope that now is perfectly clear?

Hard perhaps to believe, that not everyone agrees with us on things we say, but sometimes, some people do, and it is therefore not surprising that you get messages that are in broad agreement. I doubt anyone believes that you write all the replies that are in broad agreement with your. point of view, and nobody to my knowledge, has ever accused you, of so doing, in the same way you appear to be accusing me. I don't expect an apology, but I would hope that you understand the point I have made in this message.

I thought I might open a can of worms with my comment. So, rather a long reply. Sorry.
Comment by: Stephen on 31st March 2024 at 23:20
We also went swimming once a week during the last two years at junior school, and of course it’s true that children of that age do need supervision and it is usually females who do that at those ages. We went with our class teacher too, and our swimming coach was a woman who worked with schools visiting that pool. It’s crazy thinking back how shy I was about appearing in those skimpy swimming trunks boys wore at that time in front of our teacher and the girls in my class when I was only 10 to 11. We changed in cubicles with two of us in each one. As ridiculous as it might sound, I can actually remember trying to rearrange myself ‘down there’ so that nothing looked too obvious, as other boys, quite rightly, didn’t seem to care. I can’t really get back inside my head at that age as to why I was like that other than I didn’t like being stared at by the giggly girls. By the way, I was very average for my age down there so I really can’t think what i was trying to achieve really. Perhaps just circumstances.

Neil on 1st April 2024 at 00:00
Neil, no I’m not being like Alan, or anyone else in particular for that matter. We’re all who we are and all have our own experiences growing up that might affect us slightly or profoundly depending on many factors. I just remembered certain things that stayed with me and so I had certain awarenesses, certainly by that age. Yes, I’d done all those things like changing together in classrooms at junior school ages, and you are correct, it really doesn’t matter too much when so young. In fact at the time I remember thinking that it was worse for the girls as they had to do PT, as we called it then, in their underwear, whereas boys would just wear our shorts. Yes, Junior schools were always very feminine environments, though we did have two male teachers in my school, one of which was my teacher when I was 10. By that age PT had turned into Country or Scottish dancing anyway, and we kept our clothes on for that. Thankfully, I didn’t experience school showers until Secondary school.

So, here's a general account of my early experiences at that age, and what lead to my comment.

My final year junior school teacher was a great character and teacher who seemed to prefer boys, and she certainly took a liking to me, which I didn’t really mind most of the time. On our first morning in her class, we all filed in and sat where we chose. I sat with friend, near the back as usual. We were soon told to leave these places and to all line up along the back wall. She then pointed to each child telling them where to sit, and each time placing a boy next to a girl. There were always more girls than boys and all this seemed to take some time, until I was the last boy, together with about 10 girls. I slowly began my dreaded feeling, that surely she can’t think I’m a girl, as I’d had that awkward mistake made occasionally throughout my childhood, possibly due to my hair usually being slightly longer than most boys at that time. Finally there was just myself and one, very pretty, girl left. We were placed at the one remaining desk, which had the back of it placed right up against the teacher’s desk, so right at the front of the class. Consequently, I was often asked to the front whenever she wanted someone to help with things; something I would normally have never volunteered to do. On one such occasion I was asked to the front and told to remove my top clothing so she could point at my ribs etc during a biology lesson. That was the last straw and I just refused. She tried pulling on my arm to encourage me to comply but I pulled back, saying I don’t want to do that. I was quite pleased I had the confidence to stand my ground at that young age, to the extent that she eventually gave up and ordered another boy to the front to do it.

On another occasion I somehow ended up lying across her knees at her desk as she playfully slapped my backside, to the hilarity of the whole class. I remember a feeling of slight amusement as part of class clown fun, but also mixed with embarrassment during all the class laughter. She certainly wouldn’t get away with that behaviour today. She also ran the boys’ school football team, choosing me as captain. That was fair enough as I was good at football and did become top goalscorer. But I do remember missing a shot once, with her shouting out very loudly, ‘For goodness sake Greg, you’re not just a pretty face’ which again everyone within ear shot watching nearby seemed to think hilarious, and then as it became half-time, carried on with further teasing during the break. I think I remember walking away from it all and standing on my own for a bit.

I could mention other moments throughout that last year but I’ll leave it there. I suppose I did feel sort of ‘special’ in a childish way, and knew that she seemed to like me. But, imagine if I’d also had to shower in front of her after all this attention, I certainly would have found that very uncomfortable just at that age when you’re not sure about anything. She was actually a very good teacher, and I did do very well in her class. It was her last year as a junior school teacher, and for the next school year she was to join a secondary school as art and music teacher there. As this coincided with my last year at junior school, she’d arranged for me to go to her new school as well, even organising that I’d be in her form. I did attend this school for a short time, but not appearing until late into the second term. But I was to leave after a short time as it eventually proved too far to travel each morning while still recovering from a bad leg fracture that happened during that summer between the two schools…and the pretty girl I was sat next to for that whole school year? We both decided that we liked one another, probably due to seeing one another so much, and she became an early ‘girlfriend’.

Comment by: Alan on 1st April 2024 at 04:12
Alan what always irritates me slightly is that people who’ve found themselves doing certain work, always seem to take the opportunity to announce to everyone what they’ve done so. If you can understand my meaning. Both males and females always seem to do this.

Comment by: Amanda on 1st April 2024 at 15:46


"A high school academy that my sixteen year old son goes to currently has a trans man (a woman who is now identifying as a man) teaching boys PE on the staff and having complete access to the boys changing room to do so."


This is the sort of ludicrous situation we have now employers are going woke with a vengeance. Things get worse in Scotland from today (and no doubt later this year when we have a change of government) because they are painfully PC, and it might be deemed illegal to say that you find the situation distasteful.. If it were me, if your son is uncomfortable with the situation I would find him a better school to finish off his education. It doesn't say much for the headmaster and his board of govenors that they are prepared to connive with this tomfoolery..

Spring has sprung, and the SockPuppets seem to be emerging from Hibernation, not that they ever really went away, despite the introduction of IP address monitoring. I can get a new IP address just by visiting my local public library, sipping a coffee in Starbucks or Costa, spending time in a Hospital Waiting Room or re-booting my Router if I can't be bothered to go out.

Are we really expected to give much credence to multiple nested Comments on Comments?

Comment by: Alan on 1st April 2024 at 04:12
Comment by: Greg2 on 31st March 2024 at 21:46
"Comment by: Janet on 31st March 2024 at 04:11

A high school academy that my sixteen year old son goes to currently has a trans man (a woman who is now identifying as a man) teaching boys PE on the staff and having complete access to the boys changing room to do so. I am not going to mention the school because it might cause problems if I'm identified and nobody is supposed to be making a thing about it, but this person is still biologically female and sporting clear female characteristics such as breasts. This teacher commonly takes certain gym classes with shirtless boys apparently, my own son included. All I will say is this is in eastern Scotland in a high population area and a large school. What do you think of that then?

How long until trans women, men who identify as women, are allowed to teach girls and get access to their changing areas in school?

Comment by: Greg2 on 31st March 2024 at 21:46


"Comment by: Janet on 31st March 2024 at 04:11
Janet why have you felt it necessary and comfortable to make the announcement that you took boys of various ages for shirtless PE over all those years, in both mixed and single gendered classes, and that you had access to the boys showering at primary school ages. I would have really hated to have had to shower in front of my female primary school teacher when I was 11. Thinking back, she was far too familiar with me anyway when I was at that young age. It’s just typical that there’s total disregard for how boys might feel about this at that age, so the boys will quietly just put up with it, even though they don’t like it. But obviously there would be not a chance in hell that girls would have to put up with that had the genders been reversed".



It's all down to power again, Greg. Janet boasts she could do it because she had the power to inflict it. It clearly doesn't bother her now., nor at the time she held that power.

We had no women teachers but if I had of done, I would have played truant more often, if they were prowling round the locker and shower rooms.


Teachers really annoy me - when they are not boasting about their powers in loco parentis, they are forever whining about how hard done by they are. Their Dr. Roach, a leader of one of the teaching unions was on Radio 4 on Saturday, ahead of a conference speech, giving us all the old hard luck stories about how hard teachers find it to cope:

https://www.nasuwt.org.uk/article-listing/the-teaching-profession-is-in-crisis.html

As far as I am aware the profession has been "in crisis" for the past 40/50 years. I would suggest a crisis of their own making, due to many of their attitude problems. The poor things find it so hard to cope with only 10 weeks holiday a year, a generous salary and pension scheme. Some are even turning to the bottle (some of ours were doing that back in the 1980s - in that one respect they must have been ahead of their times!).

It begs the question how would the delicate flowers cope if they worked six days a week in a supermarket on minimum wage, or in a job that required a degree of physical strength. It also begs another question - if the job is so terrible, why do they stay in it?. If they don't like the job - there's the door.

Money and power are strong incentives.

You sound just like Alan there Greg, actually I had to do a double take at the name just incase! The thing with being at primary school is they were and still are overwhelmingly female by ratio to men are they not.

If you go right back to infants school we changed at our tables in the classroom together in front of the woman teacher, boys and girls beside each other down to our pants and knickers with each other. I don't think anyone cared much at that. There was no changing room other than the class room we were in or we could have gone to a room that divided up a pair of classes with a partition but that was never done. All in it together at that tender age. A proper changing room seemed quite posh to get to ourselves once up to primary school.

Greg2.

What Janet says about primary school is likely not as bad as it seems when written down. When I was at primary school we went swimming very rarely actually but when we did we went along to a nearby leisure centre and two ladies would take us there from school, one would be in charge of girls and the other the boys and keep eye on us in the changing area as we changed in and out of swim stuff and dried off afterwards. Well someone has to watch a group of ten year olds don't they. I remember we often faced the wall as we changed. I think this most happened at ages of 9 and 10, that's 1969-70 in my case. You are right though, it would not have happened in reverse would it, but saying that, I was not unduly bothered. Our teacher was discreet and in Janet's case I very much doubt she was staring into the boys shower like the men might have done but that's only an educated guess on my part. This also comes right back to that mindset that says boys don't do modesty I suppose, although we all know that's completely false in reality. I actually had a lot of private swimming tuition away from school with a close friend of the family and a small friendly learning group.

At secondary school I remember the men that took me constantly watching us closely as we showered and timing us with the stopwatch to make sure we had our two and a half minutes under the water and it quite often going rather cold on us. I would have been very unwilling to stand there showering if one of the ladies had been watching if I'd had to do that at primary school, but primary age is a very different dynamic to secondary in terms of personal development.

Comment by: Janet on 31st March 2024 at 04:11
Janet why have you felt it necessary and comfortable to make the announcement that you took boys of various ages for shirtless PE over all those years, in both mixed and single gendered classes, and that you had access to the boys showering at primary school ages. I would have really hated to have had to shower in front of my female primary school teacher when I was 11. Thinking back, she was far too familiar with me anyway when I was at that young age. It’s just typical that there’s total disregard for how boys might feel about this at that age, so the boys will quietly just put up with it, even though they don’t like it. But obviously there would be not a chance in hell that girls would have to put up with that had the genders been reversed.

Janet, don't mind my asking (I know this is an incidental question) in what part of the United Kingdom did you teach? I went to school in Essex and thought that perhaps rules vary between local authorities.

Nicholas J.

Just reread the 2nd point Janet made (I have reprinted it here as line 1) and the penultimate line, which I have repeated as well for you:

"2. PE teachers are well within their rights to tell a class they want it done in bare chests...."



"....I was a physical education teacher for 19 years in the 70s, 80s and 90s, covering 1976-95. In that time I took boys and girls primary and secondary classes each week in the school sports hall with boys only, as well as girls only, at secondary level and boys (11-15) were always asked under any teacher, either male or female like me to do so without a shirt inside the school sports hall in the secondary school I worked at from 1979 to 1987...."


You will note she said "told" in the first instance and "asked" in the latter. A typical piece of pusillanimous word juggling much loved by petty officialdom.

Comment by: Alan on 31st March 2024 at 10:59
Comment by: Janet on 31st March 2024 at 04:11
Don't try to sugar the pill, Janet. They were TOLD, by your own admission, not "asked".





You seem to be arguing with yourself here. Janet clearly used the word 'told' and not 'asked' so what are you picking her up about?

I'm sensing an enormous amount if anger within your comments and I don't understand it. I remember having quite big anxieties surrounding PE related issues at school, at first I was afraid, I was petrified, especially showers and being made to get naked, but worked my way through them quite effectively and quickly enough in the end. I was there 1978 to 1984 so covering Janet's own time. I'm at a loss to understand why someone many years later continues to hold this deep seated bitterness on something as simple as a teacher asking a class not to wear a top in a PE lesson though. I certainly didn't care much for doing so myself at school if I'm honest about it but I certainly don't hold any resentment towards anyone for telling me to do such things. See my earlier comment from 29th February about it. Obviously everyone is different and some deal with things a lot worse than others who have the had the same. Happy Easter.

Comment by: Janet on 31st March 2024 at 04:11

"....2. PE teachers are well within their rights to tell a class they want it done in bare chests."....



"...I was a physical education teacher for 19 years in the 70s, 80s and 90s, ... at secondary level and boys (11-15) were always asked under any teacher, either male or female like me to do so without a shirt inside the school sports hall in the secondary school I worked at from 1979 to 1987..."


Don't try to sugar the pill, Janet. They were TOLD, by your own admission, not "asked".

Honesty is the best policy

1. Bare chests in physical education classes are perfectly normal and okay.
2. PE teachers are well within their rights to tell a class they want it done in bare chests.
3. It's okay to feel a bit anxious but it doesn't mean you don't do something.
4. The more you do it the easier it gets, very quickly.


I was a physical education teacher for 19 years in the 70s, 80s and 90s, covering 1976-95. In that time I took boys and girls primary and secondary classes each week in the school sports hall with boys only, as well as girls only, at secondary level and boys (11-15) were always asked under any teacher, either male or female like me to do so without a shirt inside the school sports hall in the secondary school I worked at from 1979 to 1987.

Between 1976-79 I worked at a primary school and took boys PE, girls PE and mixed PE, once again boys (8-11) took much of the gym PE with a bare chest. In this school I also had access all areas when required. Both schools required showering after PE for everyone. Male teachers supervised boys at secondary, I was able to do so at primary. There were no complaints.

Protests were minimal on the subject of doing physical education classes in bare chests.

Comment by: Tony on 30th March 2024 at 21:23

"I was playing devil's advocate with my comment Alan, that's all."


OK, Tony - if you say so, only I bound to say it didn't read that way to me.

At least you didn't come out with quasi civil servant-ese about "safeguarding", which Tommy did - I was almost expecting other jargon like "best practice" which I always find especially otiose (does anybody advocate "worst practice"?) and of course when things do go wrong - as they invariably do - the classic "lessons will be learned". Except that they never are, because the same situations crop up with depressing regularity, especially in the area of child welfare. You only have to read national and local newspapers to see that every week.

Re Kieran on 29th March 2024 at 22:15

"I used to go for walks bare chested... There was definitely something fun, earthy and a bit daring about doing so that I liked, plus the feel of it generally." - apologies if going too far off-topic but what made you stop?

I've also been following Craig's comments about the bareskin running group and more recently Jamie Pearson's on the 28th. All sound very positive. Tempted to give it a go myself as I'm guessing there's also benefits to confidence and mental health as well as physical.

Comment by: Alan on 30th March 2024 at 15:33
The old "discipline" argument, eh, Tony?, trotted out as an excuse for bare-chested P.E.



I was playing devil's advocate with my comment Alan, that's all.

Comment by: Tommy on 30th March 2024 at 15:15
Dear me, some dispiriting posts from someone on here. Suggesting that gay people shouldn't be PE teachers, and then PE teachers should only be married or cohabiting men. Implying of course that single men have some suspicion about them.

"As someone who has worked professionally in safeguarding,,,,,, the remedy is robust safeguarding procedures ...."

Problem is it doesn't always work does it, Tommy? Never mind, let's all think nice left wing thoughts and everything will just magically be perfect.

Comment by: Tony on 30th March 2024 at 12:54


The old "discipline" argument, eh, Tony?, trotted out as an excuse for bare-chested P.E. Tell me, did that stop Teddy boys, skinheads, glue-sniffers of the past, or today's epidemic of knife crime, and the need for metal detector barriers in schools (certainly in London) to prevent children, some as young as 10 or 11 taking blades into school?. Uniforms as a cure for violence and delinquency?. I think not.

Of course it didn't - and hasn't. Perhaps treat children like individuals and not herd them together like prisoners, and treat them as such, and they might actually enjoy school rather than resent it - and that is the heart of the matter - kids resent the way they are treated so they hit out - usually at the wrong targets.

I get sick of all the talk of "discipline", because it just doesn't work like that anymore - if it ever did. You might cower them into submission at school (possibly), but just wait till the bell goes.

Dear me, some dispiriting posts from someone on here. Suggesting that gay people shouldn't be PE teachers, and then PE teachers should only be married or cohabiting men. Implying of course that single men have some suspicion about them.

As someone who has worked professionally in safeguarding as well as these views being repugnant stereotypes, they are also tosh. People to be concerned about come from all states of attachment, and the remedy is robust safeguarding procedures and not resorting to stereotyping from decades ago, that never worked anyway.

Comment by: Alan on 30th March 2024 at 05:27
"I totally agree with you, Kieran, and have been saying this for years."


Maybe if you were as persistent with your PE teachers at school as you are on this website over the issues you dislike you might have managed to bore them into submission and got your way.

Logic says that it should make no difference if someone is wearing a red shirt, someone else is in a blue vest and another is in a bare chest, but I think getting everyone just the same, such as in the picture depicting this forum here, is that it promotes a disciplined and well managed approach where nobody stands out as better or worse than the others and is simply a case of a level playing field, literally as far as school attire is concerned. It was rarely any different in my school PE gym.

Comment by: Kieran on 29th March 2024 at 22:15
In response to Craig and also Jamie.

"...When I saw the recent survey from Nathan Hind on here I just wondered why make such a fuss in the first place, as the easiest thing would surely be to let those who like doing PE in bare chests to do so if they want and those who don't like baring their chests just stick the school vest or tshirt on top and cover up, keeping everyone happy. Why does everyone in a PE lesson have to look the same as each other?"

I totally agree with you, Kieran, and have been saying this for years.

We are constantly told that this is the era of the individualist, yet the backwards education system in this tight little island continues to want to turn out a human conveyor belt of identical human beings. We are not identical, we are all individuals.

A few weeks ago somebody posted a piece of video from the early 1980s from an American school, some were STTW some had shirts, some had singlets, but there was no great variation in performance and the teacher seemed quite laid back about it,. Time Britain entered the 21st century, and catch up with that American school of over 40 years ago.

In response to Craig and also Jamie.

I used to go for walks bare chested. I used to leave my home, usually around 8:30-9 am weekends and walk for about 3 miles from my home. The total walk was about 60 minutes or so. Sometimes, I would walk down the middle of the street past my neighbours like it on a frosty morning. I would wear walking shoes so I could move fast. Many times I would do this in quite cold weather. It was great. I had a lady friend that was eccentric and a bit older than me and we would walk some days together. She knew I liked doing this. Sometimes, I would take the Tshirt incase I wanted it on along the way but mostly I never took anything with me to put on my chest. She would chuckle at me sometimes while we walked. I would sometimes drive to Starbucks when it opened at 5am wearing no tshirt and then go for a run like that before the working day if it was warm then sit outside and sip my moca shirtless. There was definitely something fun, earthy and a bit daring about doing so that I liked, plus the feel of it generally.

I think it helped with my own inherent shyness I suffered at school on the issue. I determined to overcome being weird about going bare chested. I was only early 20's when I was doing this in the late 90's long before this current bareskin craze got going. By the time I'd got to my early twenties I really regretted being so shy and awkward in school over things to do with PE like having to remove my shirt for the teacher and be a bare chested skin during PE.

I think there are a lot of shy and awkward teenagers in school out there and were in the past like me who a few years later ended up completely different to their school days once they were behind them.

When I saw the recent survey from Nathan Hind on here I just wondered why make such a fuss in the first place, as the easiest thing would surely be to let those who like doing PE in bare chests to do so if they want and those who don't like baring their chests just stick the school vest or tshirt on top and cover up, keeping everyone happy. Why does everyone in a PE lesson have to look the same as each other?

Comment by: Neil on 28th March 2024 at 23:41


Serious question, Neil: Do you think we should just forget about what these men did?. It was a long time ago - let's forget all about it. It couldn't happen now, - could it?

The sad fact is, it probably does happen now - it is just that many people affected by it do not speak up about it while it is happening out of embarrassment, or feeling they will be seen as weak or fear they won't be believed. There also seems to be a view that boys are fair game - there would be howls of outrage if male teachers did what they did to girls. There would certainly be harsher prison sentences meeted out.

We hear of Nicky Campbell and Earl Spencer because they are well known. It happened - and probably still happens to people we have never heard of.

Sweeping it under the carpet, or wishing it would go away is not an adequate answer.

As we have seen, even when some of these old monsters do get caught, the punishments - assuming there is one - are woefully inadequate for all the damage they have done. Pleading old age for something you did when you were not old and frail is the refuge of the coward and it is noticeable they do not even show contrition.

What is your answer, Neil?.

Alan, I plead with you to stop repeating the exact same argument on here on the abuse issue.

Why are you unable to let go of it?

Comment by: Jamie Pearson on 28th March 2024 at 17:27
I've been lurking reading this thread and reading your comments with great interest Craig for the past few months.

Your hugely impressive and positive sounding posts have inspired me to set up my own little bareskin group too with a pair of friends, so we have three in our group set up a couple of weeks ago and one of them has decided to look into doing a social media group maybe on facebook with it too, but I set up our little one on Whatsapp like you have done, with a view to doing some of this throughout the hopefully decent summer ahead.




I agree it's good to read some positive comment around the whole issue of physical exercise even with adults and how wonderful you feel inspired and inclined to give bare chested running a go considering your own admission of feeling nervous as a schoolboy at the prospect. In the end it's down to not being scared of your own self and body isn't it. It does nobody any good to be overly cossetted from such things in school in my opinion, you learn nothing about yourself and will never break free of fears if you are.