Clitheroe Royal Grammar School

Jason

If it;s the toe-fetishists they are concerned about, then yes to socks. If it's equality, then birthday suits would be cheaper to source, and no chlorine to rinse out afterwards..

Norman, Your daughter-in-law might object but anti-woke media outlets, such as Telegraph, Mail, Express, Piers Morgan on TalkTV, GB News, would love to get their hands on a story like that, so as to support common sense parents in challenging the school.

Next requirement Fiona, well surely at a school as dumb as that they might as well go for socks too. I better not joke, it might just happen. Real world is way beyond parody nowadays.

I'd suggest that school forgets doing swimming lessons completely.

But the school isn't requiring the boys to wear one-piece swimsuits as I would imagine the girls are wearing. They are demanding that both boys and girls wear t-shirts and shorts, which seems rather overkill as swimwear. Whaat will the next requirement be? Full-cover wet suits, diving suits with helmets?

Let me get this right. A school is doing the equivalent of a wet T-shirt event! If it's all about equality then why not let the girls be like the boys, not the boys like the girls. Seriously though, are they attemting to teach people how to get hang ups now? Any self respecting boy should feel far more self-conscious wearing a T-shirt in the swimming pool than not wearing one. We hear stories like this ten times a day now and that's the worry, stupid ideas are getting normalised and accepted without much pushing back.

I'm staggered Norman. What kind of mindset thinks like that and tries to impose such nonsense. Do good for nothing liberal retards.

They're telling them Mike.

I had to call my daughter-in-law and ask her to message me a copy of the note so I could quote it accurately here when you asked.

There is a line in the note I saw from my grandson's primary school that I will quote precisely here: 'we want to create a safe and secure swimming environment for all our young people who take part with confidence and offer non-discriminatory lessons to achieve our schools aims and achievements'

It then goes on to say: 'we ask and require that all boys and girls attend with swim shorts and a close fitting, not loose, t-shirt to be worn while in the pool'.

No colours are specified.

Adding further: 'Pupils who fail to bring with them the required items to the standard expected will not be permitted access to swim'

It looks like they are trying to erase the difference between the genders and homogenise them all the same regardless of boy/girl, male/female.

So my grandson and other boys in his class could turn up and not be allowed to do their swimming lesson because they haven't got a top to wear. They have effectively barred swimming as we all know it and did it. What is this madness. So his mother now ends up with a chlorine smelling wet t-shirt coming home for a wash that needn't be. She's been doing this since September 2021.

This is a primary school and my grandson is only 10. What kind of messaging is this exactly? Is a 10 year old boy supposed to feel ashamed of his body now. Are we considering these children as sexualised or something and needing to be protected?

Many of these same boys go swimming after school in the usual manner anyway. I'm very tempted to fully name the school here and give the name of the headteacher but my daughter-in-law told me not to go that far.

Are they asking them or actually telling them to do that and for what purpose? I think I've heard everything now!

I remember having to bring pyjamas to swimming class in primary school to pass my survival badge. You had to jump in the pool with them on swim a couple of lengths then tred water while removing them. I passed , still got the badge to prove it. Guess your grandson is going to earn lots of survival badges. Seriously though it just sounds plain dangerous to be so politically correct.

One of my grandsons goes to his primary school where they now ask boys to wear a t-shirt top while doing weekly Friday morning swimming according to a note to home his mother showed me the other day. Why is this happening, as neither of us think its sensible and the lad hates it.

Why would anyone doubt barechested school PE still exists, why shouldn't it?

Derek sounded as if he'd spotted a UFO landing on the playing field rather than seen an everyday lesson.

Quite unusual to do that level of x-country at primary school like that. Expecting average ability ten year olds to run that kind of distance is pushing the limits I think, and I preferred going running over other things, although in my primary we just ran around in circles within a painted lanes oval course on the grass. Running appealed to my one-on-one competitive streak against one or two others who I enjoyed beating.

I like the way you talk of your teachers placements around the course to stop short cut cheating, yet at the same time they are driving around in cars, the ultimate cheating! They should be taking part themselves. In my primary we had a dreadful teacher who would never take part in anything at all and just stand there watching as if she was a spectator in her coat and do literally nothing. Teachers should get stuck into their PE lessons in the lower schools as well as in the higher ones.

In the 1970's at my middle school from age 9 to 12 we did cross country runs once a month thoughout the year. They were nearly always on footpaths and as we had a double games lesson they could be long. Looking at a map and from memory it looks like they were typically 4 to 5 miles in length. For a 10 year old of only average stamina and quite heavy build, (though never overweight), like myself 4 miles seemed a hell of a long way. I would be tired out by the time I finished which no doubt has put me off running distance all my life. The teachers would never join in but instead positioned themselves around the course to make sure no-one took a short cut. They took their cars out to the distant positions and I do remember sometimes lads would be rescued by car if they suffered sprains or illness or in the case of the least fit just exhaustion. Our games kit was designed for rugby not distance running. A thick blue long sleeved collared shirt, thick black shorts and blue knee length socks. This was great for a cold windswept rugby pitch in winter but you can imagine how hot it would have been running that way as the weather warmed. Only the most self concious kept their shirts on, most including myself would leave the top behind and voluntarily run bare chested. It was never manditory though.
As you can tell my cross country experiences were much less happy than most who post here. Distance running suits only the fittest boys and 75% I would guess struggle and for that reason cross country was the most widely disliked of all games lessons. In the more inclusive ethos of the present I would guess lessons like mine have disappeared.

For anyone doubting schools nowadays do things how many of us remember in the 70s or 80s literally an hour ago I walked past the perimeter of the local academy high school near me in Gloucestershire (basically a secondary as we remember them) and there was plenty of games activity going on throughout the sports field and a group of what seemed about twenty five boys having what looked like a very casual group run together and all were bare chested with navy shorts and white trainers on. Whether they had all chosen to get out like that or been told to is anyone's guess. Looked like they were staying in the grounds and not leaving the boundary.

In these days of cosseted lads at school, from my window I can see a university sports field which is given over to a full size running track and two rugby pitches. At the present time running is the only thing happening but it's interesting to note that 90% of the lads out running are bare chested. I would also say that about 50% are running bare foot. The track is grass. The girls do not of course run topless but the same number of them run bare foot.

I guess they are just doing what comes naturally.

My grammar did distance running at school once weekly for half the year Sep - Mar and it was done with shirts firmly off our backs and a completely exposed chest and body above the waistline. Don't ask me why, when accompanying teachers wore the school logo'd vest we already had too. Only if it was a hard frost could we do different. Then in the spring & summer we'd do track & field and wear vests more often than not. Work that one out!

I went to state schools until I was 12 and then private school after that until I was 18, latterly covering the years from 1984 until leaving in 1990. It was quite the changeover from the casual ways before 12 and the focussed disciplined ways after that, and PE could end up being on a par with a military style drill in certain circumstances. We had it three times each week.

Cross country running varied dependent on who took us out. Whilst we had standard PE vests for outside, when we got older after the first two years (at 14) we began running without any tops for anyone nearly all the time with our teachers and got used to leaving them hanging in the lockers. School had a weather screen just outside the PE office window and sometimes one of us got sent to check the reading. My main outdoors PE teacher Mr.Symes considered anything above 45 degrees fahrenheit to be fine and healthy for running with a bare chest. That was well under 10 degrees centigrade and he never bothered worrying about the wind direction or the chill factor. It could be very bracing on a thin teenager with minimal body fat, which was most of us really. Nobody seemed overweight in the late 80s.

We ran cross country all year round and did one every week in one of our lessons. You might think that running around outdoors with no shirt on in colder weather was really dreadful, and at times it could be. But unlike some teachers our Mr. Symes would keep abreast of us in the main pack and be the same as us so there were no complaints. You never argued with our teachers anyway. Inside the main gym I'd say half our lessons were shirts off. Some like that kind of thing, some don't. I was ambivalent.

Far worse for me was running cross country during summer. We would run a similar length to winter no matter how hot it got and this could be a bit more uncomfortable than getting a bit fresh in the colder seasons. Running, even with no shirt on, in 30 degree heat with the sun belting down or even in cloudy humid conditions at that heat level was not ideal. I could sweat out some serious amounts of salt and was often dripping so much my shorts were soaked through from the bodily run off. The same went for everyone else, some more than others. Given the chance I would have always opted to take a cross country run shirtless in the colder chill because nobody ever had a problem running in that but there were one or two medical issues with heatstroke and asthma doing so in summer that I saw happen. At about this time there was the start of the ozone layer issue and skin awareness and some of us would bring a sun factor cream for our faces and shoulders and share a dab with others. Two of the boys I used to be in school with in the late 80s have had skin cancers on their backs removed in recent years and I have been left wondering if they were directly caused by too much sun exposure from schooldays when we were outside with no shirts on, even though it would only have ever been for an hour or maybe two per week. I have quite a few moles I never had as a youngster that make me wonder if they have a link to school PE in the sunlight.

Coming in from cross country in winter we always had a proper hot shower awaiting us all but in summer we had an almost cold one to cool our core body temperatures down if it was a hot day. Happy days.

Cross country running barefoot I think isn't as popular as it once was. I ran cross country barefoot like Bernard and Owens minority runners but unlike Bernard we all had the choice although encouraged to run with bare feet. After one bad experience of getting pumps so muddy they might as well be binned or if you had one run and you lost a pump then the barefoot option seemed quite good and once you've tried it you know it's actually alright and not bad or too cold at all to run cross country on a grass or mud surface barefoot

The bit Owen put about connecting with the earth is bang on the money for me. Summer games outside on grass in both my lower schools were always barefoot just like inside and it wasn't until I got to my upper school that I began wearing trainers but because I'd done it without so much at my lower schools when we did outside athletics on grass in summer I deliberately walked out one day barefoot holding my trainers and asked if I could leave them off and did so quite frequently. It caught on and a small group did like me too and preferred it that way. I could often win races against trainer wearing competition so it was no disadvantage to me. I know some people find it odd and others hate to be so and even get fearful of the thought of being asked to do something like that, certainly in school, but I was fine and positive with it.

I think it might be a bit like people who enjoy swimming with nothing on saying they are at one with nature. Never done anything like that but when I did have swimming lessons in school if I could have had the chance to swim like that I would have fancied it just for the feel of it. Obviously that was a no go area. In no way do I consider myself an exhibitionist or a show off, a term Robbie's teacher used back at him which I thought was a really strange thing to say.

I never ran barefoot at school but I do remember a British runner from the 1960s, Bruce Tulloh, who almost always ran barefoot. He was a serious competitive distance runner (Commonwealth Games certainly) and a sub four minute miler.

Good old public information films like the foot on a bottle one listed by Brian. Why did they fall out of fashion? They used to scare kids and adults witless and spread fear of just about anything. How come they never made a public information film about the dangers of male comprehensive school PE teachers who sent you out in the depths of winter on these miserable frozen and wet group runs with so little on designed to do their best to bring on the flu or pneumonia. OK so I'm deliberately being a bit melodramatic but I think many will catch my drift here.

It's an eye opener what some people chose to do at times. Over the past 20 years since I left school I've regularly gone back to oversee long distance/cross country running events associated with my old school and other schools either at it or near it as a hi-viz human course marker on a voluntary basis as I enjoyed this kind of thing when at school myself. What I noticed from the very first one I ever did is that there are a small minority of runners at these events who actually choose to discard any running shoes and instead connect to the earth direct with their feet. Quite a few girls do it, not just boys. This surprised me when I first saw it one wet winter day in early 2002 as this girl came running past me completely barefoot and both feet and ankles solid with mud. I did a double take infact. Shortly after another runner came by much the same. There must have been a couple of hundred runners and maybe four or five like that on that day. Subsequently the pattern has seemed to repeat itself at other events I've stood at, a tiny minority make that their choice. Yet when I ran cross country quite competitively in school 25 years ago or so nobody ever ran like that and based on what Robbie said the reaction was I can but wonder what my own teachers would have answered back to a similar request. Knowing my school as I do I think they'd have said go for it.

As a choice fair enough but I'm not sure I can agree it's acceptable for a PE teacher who is likely in his trainers to tell the class to get outside running here there and everywhere in their bare feet at any time of year, especially in colder winter conditions. I'm not sure what I would have made of such a demand if it had been made of me but I feel I would have pushed back against it. I can't see any seriously great benefits other than maybe avoiding trainer rubbing and blistering but I can see the potential for sharp object injury with nothing on.

Just go out on your nearest footpath or road surface that might look smooth enough and yet with nothing on your feet what lies beneath you as you touch it suddenly feels rather rough and far from comfortable. I base this on walking in my socks across the road to a nearby house once or twice, never mind my completely unclad feet.

Chris - I've never heard any-one refer to our lack of footwear for cross country as being sadistic - it was just the way we did it and we got on with it. There were far more complaints (not in front of teachers) about being "made to" learn Latin or being forced to use log tables instead of slide rules than about our somewhat sparse p.e. kit. I was not aware of any injuries - if there had been any I'm sure the school would have thought again.

Brian - there were certainly benefits for us to run barefoot. As I said before the muddy nature of the course would have meant our footwear coming off our feet and remaining in the mud - much simpler to not wear any shoes. Another big advantage for us was not having to clean plimsolls that would have got wet through and covered in mud. At the time it really wasn't a problem to run barefoot - I couldn't do it know but children's feet tend to be tougher than those of adults.

Robbie - I'm sorry you weren't allowed to experience the freedom of running barefoot - I'm sure you would have enjoyed it. Teachers did go out sometimes but never with my group so I'm not sure what they would have worn - probably more than we did. We followed an older boy the first couple of times to get used to the route. He would probably have been a sixth former and was, of course, dressed the same as we were. Opinions about kit were not sought by or expressed to teachers - we just followed the instructions.

Bernard thanks. So you ran cross country with both nothing on your feet or up top. Can I ask if your teachers at the time ran with you and if they did it like that too and was it imposed on all of you regardless of opinion? Three and a half miles is a long way to run like that. I'd have liked to have given that kind of running a go at least once but as I said my teacher at the time refused my request quite sharply and considered me to be showing off and wasting his time with stupidity, but I did mean it.

Chris Wendle, not sure what to make of anyone drawing such direct attention to your differences like that. I bet that looked dramatic though. I ofetn found myself drawn to observing my fellow friends feet in the changing room or when not in trainers for inside games lessons. I was aware I was on the smaller side, although I wasn't a short person.

Finally Brian I don't think your fears are anything to have beaten yourself up about and they are not so uncommon as you probably reckon. One of my schoolfriends went to judo classes as a kid to help his confidence and it worked wonders.

Wendle,

I can sympathise a bit there. I had size 10s at that age in school, still do, and felt my feet were huge at the time. I didn't notice any effect on what I did though. Now and again when we got told to remove trainers and socks I got the kind of feelings some say they did with getting their tops off. Lots of people rattle on about their shirtless anxiety from school p.e lessons at senior school level but not so many about their feet anxiety which I'm sure is a thing too with some isn't it? Perhapos it's easier to admit a dislike for being shirtless rather than shoeless.

I cannot believe you actually wanted to run outdoors with nothing on your feet at all Robbie and asked your teacher if you could do it like that. He must have thought you were mad. How weird he thought of your request as showing off. If my teacher had asked me to do that outside I'd have refused and rather taken a few whacks of his plimsoll that he liked to direct at us sometimes as a missile aimed at us or a full on whack job as I mentioned last time. There was an advert on many years ago with a boy running along a beach that was shown regularly. I think as a public information film, about litter I think. It suddenly stopped as his foot was about to step down on a broken bottle poking out of the sand that he hadn't seen, leaving the resultant horrible injury to viewer imagination. I can see no benefit at all to be had from running outside with no footwear for cross country or even shorter lengths.

I've actually found the film I was writing about, it's from 1973.

https://youtu.be/0bU1varNCkY

Robbie - you've asked about running with big feet. You are right. I had size 14 feet by the age of 15 and I often found I was clumsy while running fast athletics or longer cross country and my teacher did pass comment one time. I do also remember being very self conscious about it, especially inside the gymnasium getting them out with gym class being a barefoot requirement for everyone and I had my teacher in gym one day stick mine next to a couple of boys with the smallest size for a comaprison. One was I think a size 4 or 5, with me nine or ten full sizes bigger at 14 and I wanted their smaller feet and one wanted my bigger feet. We should have met halfway on a size 8 or 9 would have been perfect in my mind like most of the others. It was done with humour but I still found it a bit unfair to do that as it was just the kind of thing to give kids in formative years one hell of a complex. I still think mt feet are far too big and the anatomical myths around that kind of thing are myths for anyone wondering. What is the ideal size anyway?

We ran cross country only in autumn and winter, in shorts and a vest. I can't believe some were made to do that outside barefoot at any time of the year, goodness that was sadistic wasn't it. No extra layers allowed over our legs or tops. Not sure why it stopped by spring really but we went on to do other things and shorter running distances. Big feet made hurdling very tricky for me I also know that and I could never quite manage it very well without knocking every other hurdle over or coming to a crashing halt as soon as I started or halfway.

Sean - your experience was very similar to mine. I was not very good at any aspect of p.e. and hated team games as I disliked letting my team down. For outdoor games the better football players practised separately leaving the less able to play various games involving a football or go out on a cross country run. In theory we ran one week in three but all the less able section would sent out on a run if our pitches were waterlogged. In addition the whole year group would be sent out if the ground was frozen or covered in snow - This did not happen very often.
Like you I always preferred cross country to team games - I may have been in the minority but I'm not sure.
I remember talking while running a few times but usually I was immersed in my own thoughts only to be jolted back into reality when I trod on a sharp stone I had not noticed,

Justin - I think not wearing a shirt at all for cross country was probably better than having to take it off part way round and tie it round your waist or tuck it in your shorts. I'm sure that would have wound me up too.
Our school's p.e. department believed in uniformity of kit so we wore just shorts all year round. This was, of course, before many homes had central heating or double glazing so people in general were used to a wider variation in temperature at home. Our school, on the other hand, had a very efficient heating system which resulted in most of the building being uncomfortably hot for most of the winter. It was quite a relief to get outside and cool off.
I don't think we were too bothered about trying to keep clean - any-one who did would probably have had difficulty keeping up and still got pretty muddy. I remember watching some very muddy water going down the drain in our showers and the remains of the mud on my feet coming off on my towel.

Robbie - we did all p.e. barefoot and shirtless - this was back in the 60s. Our cross country route was probably about three and a half miles long. The first bit was up a sloping track which was very rough with a lot of stones of varying sizes. This was probably the toughest part of the course especially the first few times we ran it. Once I got used to it there was no problem and I think this was pretty much the case for the rest of the runners.
There was then a short section of pavement and a road to cross to get to the area of open parkland for the route proper. This took us along various footpaths some of which were dry and stony and others which could get very muddy. We then returned to the school grounds via another route which involved a benign tarmac footpath along a residential road.
We could run straight through the muddiest parts in our bare feet without having to worry about plimsolls coming off our feet and being left in the mud as would undoubtedly have happened if we had been wearing any. Also, muddy feet can be cleaned much more easily than plimsolls caked in mud. Not wearing shoes or shirts meant that the only item of clothing that needed washing was our shorts - I'm sure my mother wasn't the only one to appreciate that!

Every moment in school PE that I was doing x-country running was a positively joyful experience because it meant for that lesson I wasn't being thrown into either an overly competitive game of football or rugby on the playing fields, both which I simply hated so very much. I'd take running side by side with others, even having a converstion while breathlessly doing it any time, even if I was wet through, out of puff and sweating bucketfuls and splattered with muddiness. I still remember the sense of relief I felt when we got told we were going running. I could tell I was often in the minority with that?

In our younger year groups we often had some sixth form prefects join us for x-country and be with us and it was like bossy older brothers.

Are there any others here who would have taken x-country running every time over football and rugby or who had a similar attitude to me? I was fairly okay at running anyway I have to admit.