Clitheroe Royal Grammar School

I think it's been the case for a long time that most of us learn to swim in primary school for some reason, meaning any age from about 8 until 12, and you leave primary and never get a chance to swim at school again. I wonder why this is, when secondary school PE is supposed to be even more demanding than primary yet they leave out swimming which is as healthy and good a physical lesson that you could possibly ask for.

Come to think of it, why did most of us even have to wait until primary school to go swimming and learn, why isn't it started nice and early at first schools from the age of 4 or 5 until 8 years old straight away to get children used to, confident and familiar with water. It seems like school swimming is zoned in on a very particular age range as cited by Robbie here.

In response to Ivan,
Swimming and Water Safety lessons are part of the National Curriculum at Key Stage 1 or 2 (primary school), with a target of all pupils being able to swim at least 25metres unassisted by the time they leave Primary. Most schools bus their pupils to their local municipal pool on a weekly basis for a term to do this. However a few are now hiring 'pop-up' pools for a couple of weeks intensive lessons as an alternative.

By contrast when I was at school (1960s / 70s) we didn't have swimming lessons until the first or second year at Secondary School (I can't remember which now).
These were once a week at our local swimming pool, which was quite near to our school, so swimming lessons were always during the first lesson of the day. We met at the pool and were then walked to school afterwards.

Many of us could already swim by then anyway and we also did the Personal Survival test mentioned by someone else in an earlier post.

Robbie.
Thank you for your update about swimming in schools today.
As I have posted previously I was subject to a strict pyjama regime and
I was glad when I was away from home and family and could be free form the strict rules.

Robbie, perhaps not as much of a disconnect as you suggest! Way back in my swimming lesson days, one of the tsks in our proficiency test was to swim a length of the pool wearing pyjamas over our swim-suits, then tread water while removing the pyjamas and contrive some sort of bouyancy aid by knotting the arms, legs and waist openings to create balloons. And then, of course, there was the inevitablw brick to be retrieved from the deep end. Fortunately, I never had to repeat this for real.

Ivan I can answer your swimming question here because I have a number of primary age school children in my extended family and they have all done swimming in their school between age 9 and 11. I have no idea if it is a formal part of their school curriculum however, but they did go along to the closest available swimming pool to learn, all within the last six or seven years. One wasn't very keen to do so I do know that, especially because it involved diving down in the deep end to the bottom of the pool to retrieve an object and bring it to the surface at one point. That is not something I ever had to do when I learnt to swim with the school at a similar age when it all seemed far more straightforward about swimming strokes and styles and lengths achieved. I gained a couple of oval distance badges that could be sewn onto a tracksuit top but got mine stuck on a schoolbag at the time instead. There was one girl who joined the learners one day at my school who had been coming to PE in a tracksuit with swimming badges saying she gained the 10 metres, 25 metres and 50 metres and yet she couldn't swim at all and had to admit she was wearing her sisters top with badges and had been passing it off as her own one day and started the tears when she got caught out poolside while the rest of us were bobbing up and down in the water looking on in amusement at her.

I know it's quite a bit off topic to talk about sleeping habits and clothing (how did that happen?) but I was not allowed to go to bed in anything other than a proper set of pyjamas until I was 16 and always fancied just sleeping with less on, so when I stayed away from home I would always leave the top part off and sleep that way. I had the kind of parents who would rip the covers off the bed to get me up on some mornings if I was sleeping too late, even at weekends, so I always kept the pyjamas on fully at home even though from about the age of about 12 or 13 I really desired to sleep like I knew my father did, completely naked, but if I had done that I'd have been mortified and forever fearing one of them would be in the bedroom pulling the bedding off me to get me up and I wasn't going to let that happen. Eventually after the age of 18 I did start sleeping without a top and quite often naked when I no longer feared a sudden bedroom invasion and cover pull off once I'd grown up more, by which time they knew how I slept in bed anyway.

Another point, when I shared a dorm on a short four night trip to France with school we all had to wear pyjamas top and bottom and I saw a few others actually keeping their socks on in bed too which I'd never done myself and found rather strange.

Pete - amusing note about you assisting your sister's nights out. It sounds as though your parents had a lot of say in what you both wore.

Forgive my curiosity, but if you never wore a vest at other times, it seems strange to own them just for bed. Did you wear pyjama bottoms, or just your underpants?

Having read the comment by Claire 2nd October, I make reference to her second paragraph:
" I know from when they visit that the pre- and early-teen boys of my own extended family sleep bare-chested, and I also know, from their parents, that this choice is entirely that of the individual boy, with no parental influence in either direction And rightly so! Boys of that age are busy establishing their identities, and freedom of choice in all aspects of personal identity must be paramount."
Unfortunately because my nan had a large influence in my upbringing, it was done in a rather old fashioned way. Hence my comment
"The opportunity of going to bed even without a top on was not going to happen. Pyjamas were always worn all year round."
and how I took the opportunity to discard pyjamas when away from home.
However, despite the strict regime about wearing pyjamas, there was no objection towards the school rules that for PE we wore just shorts no underwear and no tops.
another throw back to an earlier era, although I was at secondary school I was wearing grey shorts up until I was about 13. the last boy to go into long trousers. I was so pleased when that happened and I think that was because it was no longer to buy short grey trousers in my size.

A slight change of tack, but still connected to physical exercise. Do schools still include swimming lessons in their curriculum?
I remember when at junior school we had swimming lessons that were held at the local municipal pool. The lessons were run by an instructor appointed by the local education authority.
for those who could swim a length i.e. 25 yards in those days, they were given a ribbon ( I think it was green) to sew onto their trunks or swimming costume if a girl and they received a certain number of free passes to use the pool.
during public sessions.
If someone passed the 50 yards test 2 lengths then they received a blue ribbon and an additional number of free passes.
We continued to have swimming lessons during my time at an all boys secondary school.
for our lessons at both schools we used the communal school changing room and so we were used to getting undressed in front of each other, and time being of the essence(you dare not keep the instructor waiting) we had no time to worry about seeing each other undressed.
When we had swimming at the secondary school our regular P E teacher took the lessons.
The pool was hired for a day and a school bus ferried the different classes to and from the pool for they designated time slot.

Interesting contrast of experiences here, between Pete and Chris G. I was amused to read how ten-year-old Chris found himself inadvertently catapulted into sleeping topless by his sympathetic and well-meaning mother, but I find it disturbing that similarly-aged Pete should actually have to demonstrate to his Dad that he wasn't wearing a vest or PJ top on his way to bed.

I know from when they visit that the pre- and early-teen boys of my own extended family sleep bare-chested, and I also know, from their parents, that this choice is entirely that of the individual boy, with no parental influence in either direction And rightly so! Boys of that age are busy establishing their identities, and freedom of choice in all aspects of personal identity must be paramount.

Pete - I was introduced to sleeping topless at about the same age as you, but in rather different circumstances. Mum was a great believer in vests, and until I was nine, going on ten, I was expected to wear one 24/7. In fact my wearing a vest under my PJ top was commented on when I spent a couple of nights with one of my aunts. During my last term at primary school. The weather was so that that Mun said I didn't need a to wear a vest to school if I didn't want to (I didn't!), and by extension I stopped putting one on under my PJs at bedtime, but didn't advertise this. So, when a minor heatwave came along, and Mum suggested that perhaps I didn't need a PJ top in the heat, I followed her advice, and found myself sleeping topless by default. Mum took a couple of days to clock this, but saw the funny side of it, and nothing more was said. I've slept topless almost ever since.

Hi Fiona and Claire, I never wore a vest under my school shirt. I remember being given a lecture from dad with something along the lines of as you're picked to strip off for PE more often than not, going bare chested for bed was pretty much the same thing he took the vest from under my pillow and that was that. I never dared actually question him, you just didnt. I did have to drop my dressing gown to prove there wasn't a top for a good few weeks after just to be sure.
There were never constraints placed on my sister though I do remember smuggling clothes out for her on nights out then had to remember to change before she came home- she swore me to absolute secrecy. Hope this helps.

Pete - did your sister have any comparable sleepwear conditions applied, like not wearing a vest under her PJs or nighties?

Were you actually ordered to stop wearing a vest to bed and to sleep topless, or was it just an invitation to do so? And was it your Mum or Dad who told you what to do? Were you wearing a vest for ordinary daily wear at that point, and if so, did you stop wearing that as well?

Because my mum died when I was young, along with my dad, my nan who we lived with had a large say in the raising of me my older brother. So in effect the influence on my upbringing was let is say a generation behind my friends and fellow classmates.
This showed itself in different ways, one being nightwear. The opportunity of going to bed even without a top on was not going to happen. Pyjamas were always worn all year round.
The only time that I escaped from this was when I went to Scout Camp, or away on a school trip. Although Pyjamas were always on the kit list hardly any one wore them preferring to sleep in their pants. I also did this I suppose that it felt like freedom a chance to be rebellious. After all nana was none the wiser. I mad sure that the pyjamas were scrunched up as if they had been worn.
Having said that at least we had a dad and nan looking after us and a nan who had great home made meals ready for us when we came home from school.

Hi Fiona, I don't actually remember wearing anything other than a vest on top for bed. When I was told to stop my sister (2 yrs older) thought it was hilarious for a couple of days until mum told her to shut up and no more was said. Since then I've always slept without a top and I'm 33 now

Pete, you say you stopped wearing a vest to bed around your 10th birthday, and then slept topless. Were you also wearing a PJ top before then? I was about that age when Mum suggested that I didn't need to wear anything to bed any more, a revolutionary idea but one I thoroughly agreed with.

Tom, Our vests were red,, white, light blue or green depending on your house. The shorts were black with a chunky corresponding coloured stripe running down each leg so it was easy to pick each other out.
My parents both fully supported the school' having us bare chested ouas much as possible regardless of the conditions. Shortly after my 10th birthday I was told I no longer needed a vest for bed and started me sleeping bare chested from that point. .

In the mid to late 90's when I was in school the shirts were optional, but it wasn't explained in advance, but it was introduced by PE teachers on the first day. I think it should have been written in the kit list because it would have allowed us to make a choice in advance and think about it.

In person they explained the kit by saying the indoor kit was the white shorts, bare feet, and a red singlet, but you do not need to wear the top, and it's preferred not to. This meant that those of us who were shy about it were cautious to join the 2-4 boys who would come to class bare chested.

It would have been better, if choice is allowed to have it written in the kit list in advance like this:

Indoor kit
- White shorts
Student may choose to be either bare chested or wear a red singlet

That way when we were buying the kit, my mum could have asked my preference and I wouldn't have had to go through the uncertainty of trying to be brave enough to come to class without the top.

Pete that sounds like my experience. We had four house colours at school and relevant vests for gym according to house colour we were in. Matching house colour socks too, white with a stripe along the top part. Quite a nice kit really. Except we rarely wore it. Most teachers (1974-78) made us change out of our day clothes for school and not bother putting the vest on.

I can only speak for myself but it did feel like many gym teachers in those times preferred classes done with bare chests if they could do so even if the school said you had an actual kit to wear.

Andy. we were told by the PE teachers before the first lesson exactly what to wear - strip to the waist for gym, basketball and cross country absolutely no exceptions in all conditions. Outside usually the teachers handpicked a skins team for football and rugby or they'd simply make the whole class strip usually for a fitness lesson. Though each house had it's own coloured vests and shorts white, red, green and blue the teachers much preferred every boy was stripped off as much as possible.

One for Cameron and myself - true Northerners.
I remember hearing a joke(?) on a Radio 4 comedy programme a few years back about al PE teachers being "Gay, Northern sadists". I smiled and thought to myself "You've only got it partially right - we kept the best to ourselves"..

Did boys know in advance that cross county was run stripped to the waist ? (1970's grammar)

We had the usual kit list, but all it said was "plimsolls are required for cross country in addition to normal pe shorts", so you can read this either way.

The first lesson we were told to get changed, and while most boys were ready with no tops, a few had t shirts or even rugby shirts on. Boys with older brothers knew the rules, maybe other parents talked amongst themselves in advance, maybe some boys/parents didn't believe that even in winter we ran stripped, with no exceptions.

While no sanctions were applied, boys wearing shirts were rapidly told to strip!

Did you know in advance if you had to run shirtless at your school ?

Same as you Andy. Bare chested cross country was the done way at my school in Coventry throughout much of the school year until summer term when they stopped it until autumn term came around again.

I always thought I was hard done by at school and that what we did was a quirk to my school so I've been quite taken to see so many others saying the same on the no shirts running in PE.

I seem so young and fragile when I think back to doing this for the first time aged just twelve and skinny. I recall the first few we did in quite nice weather and being told to get used to doing it when it was far worse outside, and we did too. I think the only time we stuck tops on was if there was actually an air frost!

There was no opting out of the cross country, everybody had to do it. There was no opting out of going out bare chested either unless the teacher decided otherwise. I can certainly remember assembling ready to set off in PE with my teeth actually chattering I was feeling so cold out there at the start, so I'e no idea how cold it really was on those days but it might shock me if I knew the truth what it was.

Teachers seemed somewhat oblivious. It makes me ponder why we ran in this manner so much and what purpose it served to start PE by freezing the class.

You say your parents knew Andy but I don't think I ever mentioned this to mine, or if I did I've forgotten. But that school knows best attitude is right, they'd never have argued with anything school asked like that unless the PE teacher had literally clobbered me perhaps.

In response to Ian's comments about 10 inch shorts. when at junior school the uniform was grey shorts all year round unlike nowadays when the boys seem to wear longs from the day they start junior/primary school.
However, whereas when most boys went to secondary school they wore long trousers. My dad and a few other lads parents decided that we would still wear shorts (yes all year round) I think my dad's reason was because I was not very tall. However by the time I was about 12 shorts to fit were difficult to find and so mine were very short and tight and cause some discomfort.. I think by my 13th birthday my dad relented and at long last I was dressed in long trousers.

We ran bare chested - this was in the Midlands.

As to my parents they firmly believed the school was always right !!

(To be honest, my Mum, thought "poor little lamb will be frozen" but my Dad took the view " toughen him up a bit, not going to kill him to have to strip to his shorts for cross country")

One for the two Scottish boys here, that's a good coincidence. So what did your folks at home make of all this? Running without your shirts on in Scotland in November sounds a bit mean. I ran the cross country in a sweatshirt, long sleeves in southern England and that could be cold enough some runs.

Stuart, happy to let you know. Most often, any laggards would have to do another run or two on the following days. Sometimes PE detentions were imposed (an hour's hard exercise, followed by a cold shower).
Once or twice each term, our teacher would announce that he would impose six of the best (with his Lochgelly tawse) on laggards. The reason for this was to ensure we made the effort, rather than just to punish us, so he said.
It was all part of a tough, zero tolerance regime. Not pleasant, but it made us fit.
I was at school north of Dundee in the 60s, so I am certain that my teacher and Cameron's would have known each other. It sounds though they would have approved of each others methods. I certainly remember visiting PE teachers and maybe he was one.

Ian

Interested you were disciplined for not making a sufficient effort at xc.

We were punished for things like taking a short cut, smoking and for being "lazy/slow"

How were you punished ?

I'm up in Dundee and we were still running shirtless cross countries in November up here back in 1973-75 or so and woe betide any wee boys who thought to suggest we should not be doing so. We used to wave our arms about before beginning but it could be damned chilly at times, no warm up could overcome the colder ones and worse was when wet, milder wet days harder than colder dry ones. One PE teacher was genuinely sadistic and took us out on a frosty morning just the same, I think it was all about endurance or something.

We did cross country starting in the early 60s wearing only plimsolls and shorts (they were short - only 10 inches outside leg). Usually the race was competitive or against the clock, supervised by prefects. They would report back to our PE teacher at the end of the race. Any boy who misbehaved, or cheated, or did not make enough effort would then be punished by him.