Clitheroe Royal Grammar School

Fair enough Rob, I was just curious as to why socks weren't considered necessary for PE! I can't really follow the logic, although I suppose the point you're making is that you didn't think about the logic, just did as instructed.
Not wearing a vest in the gym does make more sense though, it could get quite hot and sweaty so arguably was more comfortable for the boys who were in skins. Don't think I'd have objected if our PE teachers had made that mandatory in the gym, not sure about outdoors though!

Mark, but didn't it make you feel good when you were running with sweat in the gym without a top sticking to you!

Similarly to Rob our kit list had vests and plimsolls on it but in reality these were never worn we always did PE shirtless and barefoot. This is what we were told to do and you just got on with it.

Ben, no objection against anyone nowadays wanting to wear socks or a vest when they go for a run. Mark's comment simply reminded me of the start of our first PE lesson at my all boys school when our PE master told us all to strip off completely, including our socks and pants and to come back into the gym wearing just PE shorts. The official list given to our parents included plimsolls and a T Shirt but we never wore anything on top and other than shorts we only wore plimsolls, without socks, when we were sent out on a X country run. I was at school a fair while earlier than you and the regime was strict. If you were told to do something , you never argued but got on with it and did what you were told and got used to it.

Rob, what's your objection to socks for cross country?! White socks were part of our usual PE kit (this was 1990s). I don't recall anyone getting into trouble for forgetting his socks but they were officially meant to be worn for all PE activities.
I don't suppose you'll approve (!) but we also wore vests for cross country. However, in the gym the usual set-up was vests and skins.

Andy A, I never encountered shirts/vests and skins in the school gym; no doubt it would have different if we had played team games. It meant we did not have to bring a top to PE lessons, although we always had to bring a pair of plimsolls in case we were sent out on a run, otherwise we would have had to run barefoot. Of course , we did also have double games lessons every week when we wore rugby shirts with our PE shorts, but still with nothing underneath.

Rob, In the gym teams were either skins and vests or the whole class were told to strip off. Outside half the class were always made to strip off and half kept their rugby tops on. Cross country was always done with the whole class stripped to shorts and plimmies though.

Tyrone, I know what you mean but we had nothing to leave to the imagination. We were always worked hard and made to sweat but we all said how great we felt by the end of each lesson when we got back to the changing room, shorts off, and into the open communal showers. We also had a running track around our playing field which we used in the summer for athletics. We were on the edge of town and I enjoyed the extra freedom of X country through a small wood and out onto the hillside.

Yes Rob also for us pe very short white shorts plimsolls no sock and of course no underwear. which when climbing on bars ropes etc left little to the imagination. We had our own playing field with a running track so we did not go outside for cross country but ran laps of the track and depending on the weather we might be allowed to wear a top, but of course again no pants.

They're certainly wearing a ragbag of kits, and get those socks off! We may have worn plimsolls on X country runs but apart from that we wore nothing other than skimpy shorts for PE.

Shirts off, plimsolls off lads! We always ran barefoot and stripped to the waist

Get yer vests off lads, you're going on a run! We never wore vests for X country. Thirty odd lads running stripped to the waist...it could be more of an endurance test sometimes.

The Covid situation has actually been used for quite the opposite to what you wish for Mr Dando. A young male member of my family in secondary education goes to a school that until last March had a voluntary shower arrangement. After six months off, when they went back in September, usage of the showers after PE classes was suddenly at short notice made compulsory, citing the Covid virus as one reason for more attention to washing thoroughly to keep safe. My nephew is now made to take a towel to school once a week with his usual games kit. There doesn't seem to have been much of a pushback against getting the boys (and girls I presume) showering properly. It seems to have been generally accepted. Whether they intend to keep showers mandatory in the long term after the virus is beaten or reverse the decision back I've no idea. It would not surprise me if many of these Covid changes end up sticking permanently. Apparently it was either do this or completely stop PE lessons, which they were not prepared to do. On PE days they've also told them to be ready and wearing their full kit to school, instead normal uniform attire.

Mr Dando
Fear not! I did not feel that 'shower tunnels' were anything to be endured or feared! I've come out out of worse things than those, and generally smiling!

It is time that the state education system formally abolished the shower corridor that me and TimH had to endure. Let us use the Covid pandemic to remove showers from schools and get rid of the compulsory towel requirement. Better still, abolish PE in schools which is an aftermath of the Boer War in 1902 and allow kids to exercise in the privacy of their own homes.

Here is a school that still makes it compulsory for pupils to have towels!

https://www.glanymorschool.co.uk/Parents/Uniform/

Boys:
Indoor – plain white T-shirt, navy shorts, white socks, trainers
Outdoor – school rugby shirt and rugby socks, navy shorts, football boots

Girls:
Indoor – plain white T-shirt, navy skort, white socks, trainers
Outdoor – plain white T-shirt, navy skort, school ‘rugby’ socks, trainers;School regulation P.E. hooded top is optional;

Year 10 & 11 – Plain navy tracksuit bottoms [no stripes] may be worn;Towel for showers;Shin/ankle guards are required for hockey, football and when playing hooker in rugby. Mouth guards are recommended for hockey and rugby. Footwear should be appropriate for the playing surface



Remember, remember, the Fourteenth of December
PE teacher plot
Child abuse autumn winter shower season
I see no reason why the humiliating shower corridor
Should ever be forgot!

To Matthew - 'Tunnel Showers'.
Simply a corridor or 'tunnel' - usually tiled, with shower sprinklers in the ceiling or mounted towards the top or the walls. Water was turned on by a 'master' tap, or someone was let of gym a minute or two early to turn on individual taps (cold water!). Everyone else went into the changing rooms, stripped and went through the 'tunnel'. The last ones through (hopefully hot water!) turned the water off.

A fairly mild day here today ... looking out earlier on I saw boys from the local Middle School still going to lessons in shorts (not forced) ... and quite a few of us older guys also in shorts.

To Ian - What are "tunnel" showers?

We also had "tunnel" showers. The teacher did not like them and managed to get them altered to standard showers. The rebuild took nearly three months during which time gym went on as normal except we had to strip at the end of the period, form up in twos and then march stark naked past the builders to the swimming pool showers.
We did not like it, especially as a couple of them were hardly older than us, but were told the usual "we're all the same underneath". (I've always thought he should have added "but not all the same size")
Also, I tried the "damp the hair" routine to skive a shower, but out PE teacher had X-ray eyes (so many of them seemed to have this mystical power) and caught me just as I thought I had made my escape. Six of the belt later I had to take a proper shower. I never tried it again although some of my friends managed to get away with it (by the way, the builders had gone by this point)

Thank you for sharing your experience, it sounds like you had a pretty terrible time and it is obvious that your teachers behaved in a way which clearly intended to humiliate and degrade, and the forced wearing if girls uniform certainly raises suspicions that there may have been a sinister element too.

I have pushed back on earlier posts suggesting abuse was the norm and always sinister. I do believe what we consider outdated methods were often applied with good intentions and not for any illicit reason.

I agree with yours and other comments that barefoot outdoor PE is bizarre though I did gymnastics barefoot indoors and remember the dirty soles of my feet but it didn’t bother anybody. I do believe that a fairly basic uniform along with practices such as communal showering are generally positive.

When I think back to running cross country in the rain in a heavy reversible rugby shirt I would have liked to have gone without.

Comment by: Trevor Cooper on 14th August 2020 at 11:57

I was reading Trevor's input earlier and it got me thinking. Back when I was in senior school leaving in 1984 a lot of things went on that made me uncomfortable in the sense that I hated Games and PE, Now back in the day if you did Games you always had to shower, If you raced back to the locker rooms and attempted to wet your hair to avoid it then the gym teacher made you strip off and shower again if he suspected you hadn't. Now that in itself was embarrassing enough as he made you wait until everyone else had finished and gone. Then there was the shower tunnel as I used to call it where everyone went in and on odd occasion the gym teacher would pass the end looking through then walk off, Back then it was seen as creepy in our eyes but nothing was ever said over it.
The skins and shirts were also a major factor as it was done both in the gym and on the sports field, Now I was scrawney at the time and hated being a skin, It felt so humiliating displaying myself on the field where the science block looked over at you, But again you did as told and nobody dared to speak out of line in case of further repercussions and back then you were made to suffer.
Onto Barefoot, What Trevor said makes me think of foot fetishism or am I over reacting. Common events used to get me when entering the sports hall and put into line up when they picked teams , Naturally the skins and shirts was always part of the equasion but then we were to all remove our socks and plimsolls, We all had plimsolls for the sports hall as it was the PE kit back in the day, So why were we removing them to run around barefoot on the dirty sports hall floors, It was odd that they allowed us to dress in them in the changing rooms only to be told to remove them 5 minutes later. Staying with this subject I was a bit of a bugger back in the day and constantly bunking off or getting in trouble and on this occasion I was popping over the back fence after signing in when the games teacher caught us on the other side, Anyway we were frogmarched back inside and our punishments were set, Luckily we missed out on the cane this time but we weren't so lucky with the games teacher as it was his lesson we were bunking off. We had to go and get changed into our PE kits and he came in the changing rooms as we were ready, We were set to go running around the whole school along it boundaries but we weren't getting off so easily, We had to strip to skins and remove our shoes and socks for it, It was freezing and raining out as it was around mid October but we simply accepted without question, We were made to continue it through the 1st break time before being allowed to come in, By then I couldn't feel my feet and they were covered in mud and I was like a block of ice, We had to shower and then we were put on report.

Now I feel this has effected me in mental ways as I'm now 50 and I have a bit of a barefoot phobia, I sleep with socks on, I never take my shoes off in the house and feel anxious if I visit somewhere that I have to remove my shoes, I'm just glad now that this has all stopped but I do question wether it was right back in the day.

One more before I sign off, If you were a boy and forgot your kit you were sent to get a loan kit from the female games teacher and often di the lesson with the girls wearing a Maroon gym skirt or if you couldn't find her quick enough you did it in vest and pants which again was a bit much.

Mr Dando I will join you on the march tonight. It is time to speak truth to power and ban infantile nudity/toplessness in schools. We must stand up for those who cannot speak for themselves.

No shy child should be forced to go topless or be compelled to take a "compulsory school shower". There are many educational institutions that no longer mandate this barbarity and the obligation is on us as grown adults to outlaw it once and for all just as we did with corporal punishment.

This poor excuse for a school still has such a coercive directive!

https://www.sph.academy/parents/information-parents/school-uniform

St. Philip Howard St Ralph Sherwin
Catholic Voluntary Academy

P.E. Kit – Additional
A plain black track-suit where P.E. staff say it is appropriate for winter – no logos or designer outfits.
Ties, jumper with school crest and all items of P.E. kit can be purchased from school.
A current price list is included.
Physical Education is a National Curriculum subject and all students are required to participate in the course. All students are required to shower unless there is a confirmed medical reason for not doing so.

I say no student should be forced to shower in school -medical reason or not. The irony, a "Voluntary" Catholic academy with "Compulsory" degradation of its subjects.

It is time to stand with me tonight 2 metres apart and use the pandemic to abolish Compulsory Physical education under the pandemic!

We are told to remember the idea, not the man, because a man can fail. He can be caught. He can be killed and forgotten. But four hundred years later an idea can still change the world. I've witnessed first-hand the power of ideas. I've seen people kill in the name of them, and die defending them. But you cannot kiss an idea, cannot touch it, or hold it.

Ideas do not bleed. They do not feel pain. They do not love. And it is not an idea that I miss, it is a man. A man that made me remember the fifth of November. A man that I will never forget. Now we must act together and give the educational "establishment" a 5th of September 2020 that will not be forgotten.

Behind this mask there is more than just flesh.... one that should not be denuded by the school shower!

Max, I agree. I too was a shy child who would have benefitted from a tough love, or even, dare I mention it, a more disciplined approach.

I do feel that if the PE syllabus became an individual fitness, strength and flexibility programme it would be more inclusive and less demotivating for less athletic children.

This would then help those who have traditionally been left behind in PE to have achievable goals as they would not just be the last to be picked for football or rugby only to stand away from the action. They may even excel and out-perform those who have natural ability on the pitch.

I've found this debate very interesting and can see some of the different points of view. As Trevor said, you can't assume 'one size fits all' and at the same time, I feel it might be counter productive to leave it up to each individual as to what they prefer wearing for PE. That could just exacerbate divisions between the boys who are more confident and those who are shy.
From my own perspective, I think there are some boys who actually benefit from a 'tough love' approach... I certainly did. I was one of the shy boys going into my teens and it wouldn't have occurred to me to do sports or exercise bare-chested - yet suddenly I didn't have any option when the PE teacher announced he was putting us into teams of vests and skins. At first it seemed a terrifying experience - I felt so exposed and self-conscious when I had to take my top off. And like many other things, the more I did it the less it seemed a big deal. In time, my body developed, I grew in confidence as well as stature and it felt quite natural to be running around bare-chested. However, I doubt I would ever have plucked up the courage to take my top off voluntarily - I needed to have the choice taken out of my hands at that time. It's not really about discipline so much as being nudged out of your comfort zone, which isn't a bad thing at times.

Thanks Chris. You say "I didn't hear any dissenting voices". Because you didn't hear them, it doesn't mean to say there were none, and certainly doesn't back up your claim that all your form liked or approved of the practice. By definition most boys who were not comfortable with the situation would hesitate to say so.

I wouldn't stop you or anyone else from dressing as you like, but teachers of all people should know that one size fits all does not apply to every person, and some relaxation in the codes would not have diluted "discipline". I have to say that far too many teachers had a fetish for discipline, often including corporal punishment, perhaps to mask their latent homosexual tendancies.

Trevor
Leaving aside the fact that I was there and I don't think any other contributors to this discussion were, it is a fact that when topless PE was introduced at my first secondary school, about two years after I started there, I didn't hear any dissenting voices. It wasn't a question of surveys or gung-ho advocators. This was 50+ years ago, when most kids were expected to wear underwear vests for most, if not all, of the year and we just enjoyed legitimately spending time bare-chested!. In contrast, the "vests for PE" protocol at my second school was "strict" in that toplessness was never an option, even in the summer, and I still remember the head-master announcing at lunch one day half-way through the Autumn term that it was time that we were all wearing our vests (as itemised on the clothing list).
That was then, and this is now, and I was only reporting it as it was, not advocating a return to the "bad old days". Autres temps, autres mœurs.

Chris wrote " I and my classmates were more than happy to be topless for PE at the former and would have relished the opportunity to be topless at the latter, where vests were strict policy.".


I think you mean you rather than "we". Unless you took a poll how could you possibly know what ALL your classmates would have preferred?. Few boys are going to give their real opinion, especially if they know the questioner is really gung-ho about the subject. I would'nt presume to second guess what people prefer, but they ought to have the opportunity to chose their own mode of dress. Perhaps being August you have forgotten how cold it can be in January. School is not a prison.

Strangely I don't like the second schools "strict" policy either: I don't think anybody should be compelled to do anything they don't want to do. We are all individuals, capable of making up our own minds.

Mr Dando said: "I believe Children can never be happy forced into toplessness or nudity during physical education classes or school changing rooms"
My experience, in two different schools, one with a topless PE policy and the other without, was that I and my classmates were more than happy to be topless for PE at the former and would have relished the opportunity to be topless at the latter, where vests were strict policy. I realise this was several decades ago, but I suspect that today's boys would, secretly at least, prefer to be topless wherever possible. Other posters have noted that boys prefer to exercise topless out of the school environment, through choice rather than compulsion, and I suspect many of today's teenage boys habitually sleep topless too, again from choice..

I believe Children can never be happy forced into toplessness or nudity during physical education classes or school changing rooms. Here is a school which still mandates children take a towel to their lessons.

https://www.beauchamps.essex.sch.uk/uniform-and-pe-kit-for-new-students/

Sports Kit and Equipment for Boys
Black & red sports top with school logo
Black shorts with school logo
Black & red football socks
Trainers (no plimsolls)
White ankle sports socks (indoor & Summer term)
Plastic-studded (moulded) footwear suitable for use on 3G pitch
Shin pads
Rugby shirt
Red sweatshirt with school logo (optional)
Black thermal top/base layer (optional)
Black sport leggings to be worn underneath shorts (optional)
Plain black track suit bottoms (optional)
Gum shield (highly recommended)
Towel

We must use the Coronavirus pandemic as an opportunity to create real self distancing measures for children by abolishing communal changing rooms, compulsory pe lessons, getting rid of school PE kits and allowing kids to exercise at home in virtual work places. It is time to end sex discrimination for all males and consign this sad practice to history.

Interesting comments from Rob McS about his sons exercising topless and also those about young Euan.
I live opposite 250 acres of common land and see on a daily basis people exercising in many ways. Certainly in spring & summer (and into the autumn) I see lads happily exercising topless and as the summer goes through the shorts seem to get shorter and different colours than the usual navy/black.
I suspect a lot of this may be down to the personal 'make-up' of the lads and what their 'peers' are doing and wearing.