Burnley Grammar School

You can almost feel the low expectations that school must have had for all its children.

Apparently Mr. Corkish got sacked for his trouble -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litherland_High_School

Shocking that a genuinely decent teacher got dismissed for raising the bad behaviour of a bunch of really violent ones.

Litherland '81 sounds like the kind of place where 90% of the teachers must have actually disliked the sight of children. Good man Alan Corkish, at least you cared and did something.

1800 beatings per year. School is off for 12 weeks or so, leaving 40 weeks. Roughly 200 days out of 365. So in 200 days 1800 beatings. That's 9 beatings per day, as the film said literally one every 45 minutes. If that headmaster was the only one carrying out these slipperings/canings then he must have been attending to that almost full time every day of the year. How interessting that he wasn't named in that clip. It's a Dickensian level of brutality I would never have believed so recently without that film. If you're beating somebody with a slipper for not having a pen in class then I'd like to know what you have left for genuine troublemaker pupils and proper misbehaviour short of suspension or expulsion.

What a miserable and demoralising school that sounds. The culture of any institution is set from the top. Did the head teacher think he was running some kind of zero tolerance regime there? I mean, a beating for walking on the wrong side of the corridor! 1800 beatings in a year for just 400 boys. That's not a zero tolerance strict regime that's a failing school to put it bluntly, or worse. Whatever it was it did not work did it. I can scarcely believe that level of physical punishment is from an early 1980's secondary school in England. Good for that teacher and those parents who could see sense and what was going on. It sounds like staff morale must have been rock bottom too and the pupils bore the brunt. Totally miserable and shameful. I hope whoever ran that place was out on their ear not long afterwards. They looked decent kids and they deserved far better. That school looks like the kind of place that must have badly affected or even wrecked the life chances for so many able youngsters.

This from as recently as just 1981. You have to be concerned about any school behaving like this and wonder what lies behind it. Take a look;

Litherland High School, Liverpool in 1981.

https://youtu.be/lPIbcT8kjGU

Many thanks for your quite prompt reply to my question Alan.

A shame the discussion gets derailed now and again. I'm quite fascinated why your opinions fire things up on here. But I haven't read everything so maybe I missed something you said earlier on. In that case I'm sure someone here will show me what all the fuss is about with you.

My own father used to almost brag to me about how often he was caned in school by a black robed and hatted headmaster at his desk in his office and thought it did him good!

I still haven't had an answer to the point I made and question I asked on 18th August 2022 at 12:32

Just a lot of bluster and excuse. I still can't see anything there that was said which was untrue.

Paul J.

Nobody has created a narrative that abuse is everywhere, not even Alan. I think to suggest such is a caricature of that posters opinions, and I certainly don't agree with everything he says or the way he states it, in the same way I don't with his arch rival on here.

One thing I will say is that the threshold for the definition of "abuse" has been lowered considerably in recent years compared to thirty plus years ago. But we should not be placing todays threshold for such things onto those years thirty plus ago.

I liked Chris C's comment and endorse that in reply to your question to me.

Christopher C on 18th August 2022 at 18:51

I posed a question which I think was quite legitimate. Do you want to ban that when it doesn't suit the narrtive of abuse is everywhere?

Comment by: Christopher C on 18th August 2022 at 18:51
It's often not WHAT you say but HOW you say it Paul.

For me constant personal attacks undermine anyone's case, factual or not.


^^^^^^THIS ABOVE^^^^^^

Paul J on 18th August 2022 at 12:32
Has Andy said anything that wasn't true? It all looks quite accurate to me. I'm not sure your post is anything other than faux outrage about nothing.


In one word - plenty.

Faux outrage - that comes only from he who you're defending.

It's often not WHAT you say but HOW you say it Paul.

For me constant personal attacks undermine anyone's case, factual or not.

Kris on 17th August 2022 at 22:32

Has Andy said anything that wasn't true? It all looks quite accurate to me. I'm not sure your post is anything other than faux outrage about nothing.

I can't believe he's still at it. Now just picking fault with people for the sheer thrill and enjoyment of it.

When you start pedantic nitpicking at a 77 year old man (Gerald) who clearly wrote his own views and experience you show yourself up for what you're really all about.

Ged on 17th August 2022 at 08:33

BBC South Today is running a series of reports from their archive during August, one piece per night, that's where the Bognor Cane Company will have come from.

Gerald on 17th August 2022 at 17:53
You forgot to add the 'in my experience' line to your post because your post wasn't univeral and others had different experiences.

Tanya on 17th August 2022 at 18:17
You are of course free to wonder but others have recounted experiences of their own punishments, none has said anything about their mother being the subject of any beating but please, fantasise away, Alan will be very greatful for your ramblings.

James M on 17th August 2022 at 20:06
Corporal punishment of children is not an option these days so your question has no basis in reality. In times past, plenty of boys particularly were subject to corporal punishment, parents in the main laid down rules and consequences so it would not have been anything but the expected consequence of misbehaviour.

What a great question you pose Tanya. It makes you think what those kind of excessive corporal punishment teachers might have been like in the private home with their own. I think it was probably far easier to cane other people's boys, and a few girls no doubt.

Also, did some of these teachers really use it to maximum force they could muster at times?

That was also a decent summary from Gerald of his 50s upbringing. Broadly agree. A father that actively chose to strike a cane at his children deserves no respect whatsoever.

Would anybody on here be prepared to admit they would have felt okay doing so to their own son or daughter?

Comment by: Matthew on 16th August 2022 at 12:37
Reading about how the fathers of some posters subjected them to violence made me wonder if those fathers ever subjected their wives to violence.


Imagine being such a pathetic specimen of a man that you beat your wife and used corporal punishment on your children.

These teachers of olden times who brought out the cane against other people's kids in school - I wonder if many of them did the same back in their own family homes against their own kids?

A cane is a cane to me and I've plenty in the shed that I've used over the years for this and that around the place. They always make a very distictive sound if you swish them rapidly through the air.

But this talk of Bognor Cane Company has made me wonder if there were manufacturers of canes who actually made them specifically for schools in the past and to a spec designed purely as a punishment tool and nothing else, or whether a cane is just a cane whether you stick it in the garden or swipe it across somebody.

I was born back in 1945 and left school back in 1960 when I was only 15 years old. I was never caned in any of the schools I attended, either through luck or because I tended to knuckle down and get on with things. But at home I could give my parents plenty to chastise me about and both my parents would occasionally smack me, although I don't think they did this after I was about 11.

I had a large group of friends and although one or two of them did receive corporal school punishment I know of none who did so at home, other than with a firm hand. Once I saw a best friend given a major smacking right in front of me by his mother, I forget why now. She had no hesitation doing so while I looked on.

To me there is a major difference between corporal school punishment which was an ever present hazard in the 1950's even for well behaved boys who could fall foul very easily, and corporal punishment in the home by parents, in this case using a cane.

Whilst I fully accept there will have been some parents who used this method of chastisement I do think it is worth saying that it should not be considered the norm. I would have found it appalling if my parents had been caning me at home over anything I had got up to they didn't like. I would have felt the same if I had known it was happening to any of my friends. Fathers caning their children, and it would never be the mother would it, just the men caning the sons, is something to me that says you must be failing as a parent if you have to resort to such means.

I would be deeply suspicious of any father who thought the best way to deal with his childrens behaviour was to bring a cane out against them on a regular basis. No father should wish to do that to his child. When I grew up it would not have been seen as something generally used at home.

The fact is that there are people out there who have used this method of chastisement and taken an element of pleasure out of inflicting it. At my school in the late 1950's we had one Maths teacher, Mr Kitsinger, who had a reputation around the school for his relish with his cane or sending boys to the headmaster for it. It was said that he used it with a smirk or soemtimes a smile and would even whistle to himself while doing it in a side room partitioned adjacent to his maths classroom. I wouldn't know because I managed to escape such a fate. A boy at the desk next to mine received this for his constant inability to grasp doing long division at one point and told me he smiled broadly at him after he had punished him. It was a common observation.

We see so much nowadays about the mis treatment of children by their parents, never a week seems to go by. I have no doubt that when I grew up there would have been fathers out there who chose the use of a cane not just to bring their child into line or as a quick chastisement but for a more abusive ongoing relationship. A genuinely good father in the 1950's who was still incredibly strict with high standards and could keep his child in line would never have chosen to cane a son.

I respected my parents and knew how to behave and what would happen if I didn't. A quick smack here and there was expected, almost always instant and on the spur of the moment and could hurt, even through clothing. Caning is more premeditated. If my father had left an actual cane lying about the house ready and waiting for use against me and had actually done so in the manner a school would administer it I very much doubt I would have held him in the same respectful high esteem.

I wasn't taking too much notice but one evening recently meaning within the last month, there was reference to the Bognor Cane Company on BBC South Today. I don't know why the feature was on but there was archive footage of manufacturing including forming the familiar crooked handle and the canes being boxed up for delivery. I would guess it was of 1960's vintage.

This was obviously quite a big business when the cane was present in schools and homes. There were certainly canes present both at school and at home for me in the 1970s.

"Truth Seeker" - I am damned if I do, and damned if I don't. If I don't respond, I am giving in to one especially rancorous poster and if I do I am attention seeking.

I have always felt that things that are said, apparently seriously, need to be taken seriously, and I maintain that - certainly 40 years ago, it would have been unthinkable that a father from my background and area would have sent his son to a shop to buy a cane to inflict corporal punishment on him. It certainly didn't happen in East London. I am not saying that it didn't happen between the wars, say, but I find it incredible to think this happened during my lifetime. As I said most punishments - usually administered with a hand or fist was spontaneous. Any man who did behave in such a manner, and then insist that the son remove his trousers and underpants, was, I would say, at best, a discipline fetishist, with unhealthy and obsessive thoughts about discipline, or - at worst - a dirty old man - like the then-owner of the Bognor Cane Company who even published a magazine "advising" parents on how to "discipline" their children into going to bed at a time he considered suitable etc. Interesting that though he threatend legal action, he never took it - I assume he had a very wise and astute solicitor. That seems to have been a magazine designed to appeal to perverts. I assume such magazines today might be available on the top shelf of some newsagents, or available through some outlets, who undertake to send it in a plain sealed envelope, but to suggest it was a serious magazine, is to suggest that Harry Potter stories are based on reality. . It would not be the sort of publication found in the reading room of a public library. It sounds very niche and very specialist, and so very grubby..

I have to say, frankly and unapologetically, that anybody who regards such behaviour as normal, or even amusing has a very warped mind.

We had two teachers who enjoyed using the cane - one of them clearly gained a great deal of satisfaction out of using the cane - I assume he had a very squalid life, probably a hen-pecked husband at home, who got his own back by terrorising young boys at work. The banning of caning in state schools in 1989 must have been a great blow to his morale.

We should be grateful such uncivilised behaviour is illegal today, and it is a concern that there are still people who would like to see it return.

I also have to say that I am sure a great deal of the memories recounted on many of these pages are fictional. At best, they remind you of the "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch, at worst, they sound like the synopsis for a very seedy film.

Treating children as objects for the gratification of adults is, and always has been, disgusting, like people who inflict cruelty on animals, and they should have been bought to book.

Alan has the most remarkable quality of becoming the centre of attention on this thread and the subject himself. Quite a quality, how does he manage it. I should imagine Alan you must have had the same qualities as a schoolboy with all that it obviously must have brought upon you.

What was your prime motivation for your initial comments on here and what is your prime motivation for continuing to do so considering the kind of feedback you receive?

Giles writing something far too highbrow for the level of discussion that this forum sometimes sinks to with a few on here. No wonder it has largely been ignored. The level of comment is certainly not at Ph.D level calibre, although I found it interesting and it made me think a few thoughts I'd not previously considered.

Reading about how the fathers of some posters subjected them to violence made me wonder if those fathers ever subjected their wives to violence.

Oh Dear ... Oh Dear, Oh Dear, Oh Dear ...

Alan:
My post (15/08 @ 11.22 followed someone referring to the 'Bognor Cane Company' - a 'strange' name so I googled it and got the URL that I posted. I did not read the article - I have more important things to do - and I still haven't read it other than a very quick glance.

You took my initials and posted straight after them - to me (& others) that connects me to those comments. That is not so - I merely provided information and let other people make of it what they will.

However you do say:
'when a group of clearly decent teachers complained about his questionable magazine'.
Glancing, and I stress only glancing, I came up with this, from an item in 'The Times':
BEGINS 'What is more, Family View, a copy of which I have obtained, is about as lurid as the Radio Times, and the females pictured therein are about as undressed as the average underground train traveller in summer.
I was, in short, not shocked by it -- and neither will anyone else be. Family View, which never sold more than 100 copies, has been defunct since January last year.'ENDS

You must have seen the above - it was immediately after the sentence you quoted.

(Thinks - Alan: in your young days did you never look at 'Health & Efficiency' or even buy some 'naughty' underwear?)

I do check sources - especially the ones to relating to Youtube clips - URLs have been posted with wrong descriptions and comments about filmmakers which might be considered 'legally questionable'.

I'm surprised you didn't find something to comment about in this:

Some friends and I sometimes reminisce about our younger days - 'corner shops', etc., come up in conversation but, as far as I can recall, nobody has ever mentioned canes - not even the guy who had a tough upbringing in 1950s & 60s Glasgow.

I think that, like others, I wasn't in a minority in not been beaten as I grew up. I do, though, have a very faint recollection that a neighbour may have had and used a 'switch'.

And with that - time for lunch ...

T

Alan on 15th August 2022 at 05:49

Like others, I find your post utterly offensive.

I chose to recount some details of my memories growing up and because they don't fit with your view of how things were or indeed should have been you have the audacity to suggest I am some sort of pervert. You are insulting and disgusting.

I can now see clearly why others are calling you out on a day by day basis and I'll add my voice to those who would suggest you take your problems elsewhere and stop posting here.

Andrew.

Reading between the lines I am prepared to hazard an educated guess that you probably rather liked your teacher that did that to you and she probably quite liked you. Am I close on that?

I very much liked the resolution to that and the sense of it all. Nowadays she would simply be fired or suspended pending an internal investigation. On balance I'll take the '77 style of sorting things out.

Alan, can you give me 5 examples of what you consider the top five most abusive individual things that happened to you at school and by whom. Genuine interest.

I was once slapped across the face very hard by my female form teacher, a lady of about 40 when she was in a tetchy mood and a I made a comment about it being her time of the month. She really went for me with an unexpected slap. I was shocked at the time but class found it funny. I was 15. She then said sorry at the end of the lesson and even rang my mother at home to say what she did as my face was rather flushed one side. Mum thought I deserved it. No big drama in the end. I actually find it very amusing looking back (1977) and see it for what it was in the moment. I would not dream of feeling abused. Just another part of the spectrum of 1970's school life in a regular everyday school.

I may also be one of those rare beasts who loved most PE and had no issue with shirt loss and having a naked communal shower literally held no bother whatever and felt fine and was something I never worried about for one moment at all about, although I know one or two friends felt very different. But that's all fine either way isn't it.

TimH on 15th August 2022 at 17:31

Don't worry, you're not alone, Alan will find abuse everywhere, he's obsessed and preoccupied by it.

Alan on 15th August 2022 at 19:11

Because you are now being called out by far more than me because of your views, you want the thread terminated? I say no to that, just leave everyone else to get on with it and stay away. That's the best solution.

Tim H: I wasn't dragging you into anything. I was just referencing you as the source of the articles. People are getting a little over-sensitive on here - perhaps it was time this thread was put to bed with all the venom being generated. "Andy" would have to find a new hobby to replace trolling me!

Alan:
I'm not sure why my name is being brought into this ... I merely posted the link to some articles published over 40 years ago.

Some friends and I sometimes reminisce about our younger days - 'corner shops', etc., come up in conversation but, as far as I can recall, nobody has ever mentioned canes - not even the guy who had a tough upbringing in 1950s & 60s Glasgow.

I think that, like others, I wasn't in a minority in not been beaten as I grew up. I do, though, have a very faint recollection that a neighbour may have had and used a 'switch'.

Alan - please don't get me involved in your arguments - I more important things to think about.

Robbie - I pretty much agree with earlier comments today. I haven't forgotten I need to reply to an earlier post of yours.