Burnley Grammar School

James: like you in shorts and bare chested. sometimes barefoot too. according to the weather.

Daniel63,If it were warm and sunny I would typically go bare chested,otherwise I would wear a polo shirt with my shorts.
How about you?

James, did you have to be bare chested at home when you were in shorts? or how were you "allowed" to wear at home?

Greg 2, thank you for your reply, I agree that' being ridiculed is never good'especially as it was my parents' decision to keep me in shorts while other boys wore long trousers. I think it was a shame that you were bullied when you were wearing your leather shorts,as I would consider that you should feel proud to wear your previous country's costume.
Unlike yourself I didn't have any jeans or long trousers to wear,so I wore my shorts on a daily basis with trepidation.

Tom B, Did the decision you made at the time make it so that you never showered with the other boys? You seem to imply that had it been a mandatory ruling to regularly shower, you might have benefitted from it in some way. Why would you think it’s, ‘an important part of growing up.’ to have to shower with all the others? Do you think it might have help build confidence, or benefitted you in some other way? As far as I’m concerned, I’m not so sure about any of that. I know we all respond differently and have different needs, but I was made to shower with others from a young age, and I really didn’t like doing it. It was forced, monitored, and I couldn’t get out of it. I did get used to it in the end, but never really felt relaxed or comfortable in there, for whatever my own reasons were. But it was clear that others did. Also, my situation that I found myself in seemed to even compounded this dread, as I had to witness it for weeks, which seemed to emphasise and prolong all my discomforts to come. I’m not sure it benefitted me at all, and I still wouldn’t be over keen to shower communally to this day. It’s just my nature, and we are who we all are in the end; there’s nothing wrong with that.

I know boarding school, or national service, forces this individualism out of people, and that some character or personality types might find that being directed into conforming, rather than feeling strongly about your own inclinations, would help them to enjoy things all the more, and that’s fine too. But, like most things in life, there always seems to be a forfeit to pay. I don’t think that being ‘conditioned’ is always necessarily the best option for all…I almost went to a boarding school, as I past a voice trial to become a cathedral chorister when I was little! I chose not to go in the end. Obviously, I’ve wondered about this over the passing years, and at one period appeared to really regret it, as it cartainly would have been a route into a better private education. But, I got over it, and respected the decision I made as a boy, and for the reasons I made them at that time. Today, I’m quite glad I didn’t do it, because I know it would have changed me from the person I became, and I’m quite contented as I am!

James, It’s a pity you still had to wear shorts, and the other boy too, when most didn’t. Being ridiculed by other kids is never good, and reminds of a time when I was on a school trip in Northumberland, though I admit I was only 10. My mother had saved some new black leather shorts for me, which I’m sure she must have brought back from Germany during one of our family visits to relatives there. I admit such shorts sound very kinky today, but back then, to us anyway, it wasn’t the case, and they were much more innocent times. I think mum had saved them especially for the holiday. Anyway, as I got on the coach when we were about to go somewhere, all the kids started laughing at me. I felt really awful and ran off the coach, leaving everyone waiting, ran back to the dormitory and changed into jeans. When I got home I refused to wear them again. Even so, I think I was thought of as one of the ‘cool’ kids at junior school, because I was often dressed in slightly differently styled German clothes; they certainly seemed more colourful compared to the others anyway…but those shorts were probably pushing things too far!

I know I was bare chested in the garden during the summer etc. I never really thought about it. I was never made to do this. Strangely, it never bothered me to just take my shirt off; probably because I had brothers. I do remember playing on a park in Berlin in just shorts when I was little, but felt positively over dressed compared to some of the other kids!! And… I know I sometimes changed into jeans when I got home because I have a memory of doing so and running round to my ‘girlfriend’s’ when I was 11 and having an embarrassing ‘wardrobe malfunction’ with the zip! I know I didn’t wear shorts quite so much after I’d left junior school.

Thank you TimH , that was lovely to watch. It’s very much like the dancing we did when I was 11. I think it’s possible we might have done that very dance, or one very much like it, as I can remember the moving in and out and skipping round in groups of fours. The music we danced to was far more old fashioned and orchestral back then, but big on the accordions! I noticed the man with the stick. I’m glad he didn’t fall over it!

Greg 2,I found that some of the boys were as bad as the girls for teasing because I had the misfortune to wear short trousers when most of the boys wore long trousers. I remember one boy of my age whose parents put him back into shorts for school during the warmer months and he tried to hide so as he couldn't be seen in his shorts. I felt quite sorry for him!
May I ask did you have to go bare chested at home and did you have to wear shorts?

Greg, earlier you mentioned that you parents wanted you to be barechested for p.e. and teachers made sure you were. maybe i didn't get it but why your parents wanted it that way? how did you feel about it?

I started out at a junior school which didn’t even have changing rooms and moved to a school with a junior and senior section where the boys were already well used to rugby training and showers that followed.

The showers were not mandatory or at least rules were not enforced in the senior school and over time fewer boys would shower regularly. It gave me the excuse not to but I regret it and was always jealous of the handful of lads who would shower and indeed walk around the changing room naked full of confidence.

James, Yes that sounds typical with the female teacher finding excuses to walk through. No one ever says anything about things like this, but females very often make sure they don’t miss opportunities to observe males of all ages, I’ve certainly had a lot of that growing up, with sometimes accidentally on purpose hands in certain places etc. Not all females obviously, but definitely some.

13 must have been a really awkward age to have bed baths, and I can imagine that being very embarrassing. I was only 11, but certainly starting to become more self-aware, but I used to get really fed up with the girl thing though, I really hated that! It wasn’t my fault I had soft features when I was growing up! I hated the attention, but somehow, eventually you just become resigned to it. The nurses gave me a few ordinary baths too when I out of traction, which I also found a bit awkward, but I think they noticed this and they left me alone to wash myself. They insisted on helping me undress and get in and out, and towel me dry then helped put my clean pyjamas on. All very helpful and routine nursing I suppose really, but to be fair, I did have to be careful and avoid weight on my right leg at that time, but I was just a bit bodily shy I think. I can’t imagine young girls of that age having to accept a situation where teenage boys helped them in that way!

No, I was pleased to get out of wearing shorts and felt quite grown up when I could wear long trousers for school. I had begun to get teased a little about the shorts I wore during my later years at junior school anyway, usually by older girls. There were always remarks, and I can remember them singing, ‘Who wears short shorts’ which I think was song from the 50s, though I’d never heard of it at the time and just thought it was the usual teasing. Anyway, this would have been the late 60s. I just tried to ignore it.

To Greg - and anyone else who might be interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBtTOR1oQjc - Whitby Folk Week from 9 years back - rather restrained - possibly its early in the evening - or very late.
Guy at the stat in black with red boots - he and his partner are singing friends of mine - and the lad at the end (with the crutch) is someone I've known for 'xx' years. The crutch is (was) permanent, btw - marvellous what you can do when you put your mind to it ...

Greg 2, I too went into hospital for an operation on my knee when I was thirteen and was subjected to daily bed baths by female nurses which I found excruciatingly embarrassing.
We often found that the female teacher who sometimes supervised us for games would walk through the changing room to make some excuse to discuss something with her husband.
Did you wear your short trousers when you attended your secondary school?

...TimH no, I didn’t turn out to be a dancer either! No I’ve never seen a ceilidh, but the music sounds as though it could be good! It sound great fun, especially as you say, in the late evening when suitably primed!

Tom B, Thank you. Would that be a junior school then, or maybe a middle school where you’d have to stay for another couple of years? I know it was unusual to have showers in a junior school; though I have known it. It is an interesting concept that whatever you find happening in your social circle as a child, this becomes normal to you as you have nothing to compare anything with. Children therefore, throughout history, have become conditioned to do all sorts of things; some of which wouldn’t bear thinking about.
As regards school showering, I do remember at the time that just having to wash under a shower was very strange to me, as we only had a bath at home at that time. Also, if I remember correctly, we weren’t monitored so closely during showering after the age of 13 or so, so I do recollect many boys not bothering to have one, especially as the games lesson usually took up the last periods of the time-table in the day.

TimH, We really enjoyed the Scottish dancing actually. It was a change and something new to us. It was certainly all very co-ordinated and structured, so you are correct in that we were all being taught how to become much more efficient at all of that. Our teacher would place an old wooden record player on the corner of the stage, and the stylus would be carefully placed at the beginning of a crackly record. The Scottish dancing music always seemed to start with one chord, which was when all boys were expected to bow to the girls opposite, and then we would be off! Having learnt the dance on previous days, there would be lots of skipping around while holding a girl’s hand, and often joining up others in another circle to skip around inside. Quite sweet really. I remember it being great fun and with lots of giggling!

@ Greg 2
Just a quick comment about the 'Scottish Dancing' - it does teach you 'co-ordination' and 'teamwork'.
I'm not a dancer myself but if you've ever seen a ceildh with a 'Folk-Rock' band and lots of people - I'd suggest its about the best aerobic exercise you can get (especially at mid-night after a few beers!)

Interesting post Greg2.

I joined a school aged 11 where the majority of boys had been showering together from the age of 7. This made me very self conscious about it and as regular showering wasn’t enforced I would normally shy away.

Looking back I regret this as I feel showering with the boys is an important part of growing up.

Bernard, I think I was just so self-conscious, which was my nature I suppose. I just remember feeling so exposed all of a sudden, in just a pair of dark blue swimming trunks, and in front of all my classmates, boys and girls and female class teacher. I know my mother was always very self-conscious, so I must have inherited it from her I guess. It was purely for visual protection, or so I thought, at that age as I was only 11 or 12; I probably made things look worse!…I’ve never had a need to mention this to anyone before, but often wondered why I had such feelings or emotions for wanting to do this when so young. Seems silly really.

Greg - your comment about re-arranging yourself "down there" brought back memories. Although we never had swimming when I was at grammar school I remember that I used to adjust the contents of my shorts quite a bit. This was to make things less obvious or more comfortable and most boys did this. In the earlier years we did this as surreptitiousy as possible but later, when it was obvious that we all did it, we were more open about it.
We used to wear short cotton shorts with the waistband somewhere near our waists unlike the way modern fashion dictates. The first time a boy wore the shiny satin shorts was when we were about 14 - it caused quite a stir. I'm not sure if he got into trouble but I don't remember any-one else ever wearing them.

I’ve found it interesting reading the posts about gym lessons down the years. I was a slim, sporty kid, so enjoyed gym and games lessons. In fact at my junior school I was captain and top goal scorer in the school football team! So, here are my reminiscences covering 1960s-70s. I apologise for it going on a bit!

I think like most, my junior school didn’t have a gym. We did ‘PT’ in the big hall, and boys and girls got undressed together in our class room. The boys just wore our shorts, though mine were always much shorter than the other boys due to having a German mother! At that young age, this just went right over my head. The girls would wear just their knickers and vests, which i suppose was unfair, and unusually, a double standard aimed at the girls. By the age of 10, I think some of them were becoming a little embarrassed, so during our last year at age 11, this was replaced by Scottish dancing! I think we just took our shoes and sock off for that.

I’ve always hated gender double standards, and noticed this during my own childhood. I was astonished when I clicked on a link from an older post on here which opened a site describing boys being forced to swim naked with girls in swimsuits in the USA; this being contemporary to my time at school. If this were true, what a twisted, intentionally humiliating and disrespectful, mad culture that was. The nearest I can think of to double standard affecting me would be when I was in hospital during the summer before secondary school. I had managed to fracture my femur, so spent 3 months on a children’s ward. I couldn’t get out of bed as I was in traction, so could only wear a pyjama jacket. I had to enjure a ‘bed bath’ every morning, given by two young, often student, female nurses who often seemed to think I didn’t require any privacy at all. At the beginning I found this really embarassing, but had no choice. My very worse memory was when one of the nurses, having washed my top half, pulled down my bedding and said, ‘Oh. I thought you were a girl!’ I was so embarrassed by this as it just seemed to emphasise that she was looking at me.

We did have mixed swimming lessons at both junior and secondary schools, with the boys, thankfully, being expected to wear trunks. I was always quite bodily shy, and as unbelievable as this might seem, I even remember rearranging myself ‘down there’ so that I though I wouldn’t appear to be so ‘revealing’ as I thought the other boys were, who just didn’t seem to care. I don't know why I was so self conscious;though I think I was always just aware of people staring at me. At Secondary School, like most, we had a well equipped gym…and showers! I didn’t join the new school until halway through the second term due to my accident, so couldn’t do gym or games for several weeks. I had to attend the lesson, sit in the changing room, and then, with shoes removed, sit at the side of the gym to observe proceedings. Following the lesson, it seemed all the boys had become so used to the showers, while I was secretly dreading them. When the time did arrive for me to take part, I can remember just undressing quickly. We wore white shorts, white t-shirt and white socks and white trainers. I had Puma trainers, which I was very proud of! Later on in the showers, I just remember undressing awkwardly, and joining the others feeling uncomfortable. As I soon realised I was no different to them, I got used to it. But, during my first time showering, I was so eager to get out and get dressed that I remember putting my shirt on before I had dried myself properly. The Gym teacher barking, ‘Get yourself dried properly before you get dressed boy’ so had to take it off again and dry myself! Like many schools it seems, we were not allowed to wear underwear under our shorts, and I can remember this being checked occasionally; usually when it was a stand in teacher taking us. All boys would stand in line, while the gym teacher walked along, pulled open the front of our shorts, and looked down. We seemed to think nothing of it. Unbelievable really.

Our gym lessons were boys only, though I do remember the girls’ gym teacher would sometimes walk right through our changing room whenever she wanted to. She didn’t need to do this, as the girls’ room was just on the other side, but she just did it, always with a slightly silly, embarrassed look on her face as she looked at us. One boy did complain to the head teacher, but nothing changed. Occasionally, probably when one teacher was absent, we would have our lesson in the gym with the girls. This was always embarrassing because our gym shorts had a tendency to gape when climbing ropes or bars, or indeed, just sitting if we weren’t careful. The girls were certainly aware of this, and took full advantage. They would giggle together and tease us during later lessons we shared. They were never told to stop staring, it’s as though this was just acceptable, and their bonus as they were so blatant. The gym teacher would just smile and say nothing! It was so unfair because, off course, they would be fully concealed by school polo shirt, navy blue gym skirt and knickers.

We did get our own back on one occasion. The architectural set up being the boys' changing rooms on one side, and the girls' on the other, with open shower block in the middle. During the early years the girls enjoyed letting us boys know how undeveloped we were because they’d frequently had time to spy on us in the showers through the keyhole on their side. So, having been given the idea, we soon discovered that if we hurried after our music lesson, the girls would still be in the showers. We’d take turns looking through our side’s shower door keyhole too, until one boy ruined it by completely opening the door, when all the girls screamed and ran out. Typically, just as this happened, our gym teacher walked in and saw us. He shouted at us to get changed. Before we went into the gym, he had five boys touch their toes while he gave us six of the best with a plimsole, which included me!

Danny C,
So sorry to hear of your awful experience, that was definitely abuse and needs calling out. We weren’t abused, our PE teacher didn’t use a permanent marker pen and we were used to doing Indoor PE stripped to the waist. I didn’t mind the PE kit rules and neither did my school friends.

John, your comment about having a cross penned on your chest as a team marker actually happened at my school once too, so similar did your anecdote sound that it could almost have been written by a fellow classmate of mine. Infact I'd like to share something else from an actual email I sent a few months ago to a friend talking on this subject. The following is a cut and pasted paragraph direct from one of my detailed recollections. I've blanked out the teacher name on this public forum......

One of the most surreal things that ever happened to me personally was in a sports hall lesson. The sports hall was where we did the basketball, indoor footy and the most serious exertions in fitness tests that worked up serious sweat. We'd write our times and stats on a whiteboard. One day we entered and the whiteboard was in the middle of the sports hall, rather than at the edge out of the way. We had to sit down cross legged around it in our usual barely clothed attire as our teacher a Mr P****** scribbled some health and body stuff on it. He then decided it wasn't communicating well on the board and picked me and another boy out to get up in front of the rest of class. Without much warning or asking if we minded he began drawing various diagrams on my actual body from the shoulders all the way down to my waist, over the entire chest and arms. Stuff to do with bones, muscles, lungs and breathing and internal organs. The other lad standing with me had the same done all over his back. The idiot used one of those strong smelling thick black permanent marker pens to do this. When he finished he was so proud of his "artwork" that he signed his initials on me. It looked ridiculous and me and this other lad then had to spend the next hour doing our PE class with our teachers graffiti on us. I was not amused. I immediately knew I was going to have trouble getting it off and I did. I remember saying to him but it fell on deaf ears. The shower didn't shift it properly and the teacher seemed the usual oblivious self. The other lad was in an even worse position because he couldn't see what was on his back and couldn't reach it. I went home and that night spent ages soaking in the bath and even had to use a nail brush and a pumice very gently rubbing the black ink off my skin, with my mother wondering why I wanted a bath on a night I didn't usually have one, as she knew I didn't have a bath on PE days as I would have already showered in school. She then got suspicious as I was taking longer than normal. I never told her this happened as I felt an absolute fool. As if barechested PE wasn't enough in itself to be dealing with I had an idiot PE teacher using my skin as his personal drawing canvas.

Jamie - our school had a shorts only policy for all p.e. including cross country - nothing to do with any particular teacher. The only exception to this was the elite football group from whom the school team was chosen. They wore boots and socks with their shorts and practised in shirts and skins throughout the season. They used the better football pitch while the rest of us did activities which usually involved kicking a hard, heavy leather football around the less well drained pitches clad in nothing but our shorts.
One week in three and also if the pitches were deemed unusable by being waterlogged or frozen, we went out on a cross country run wearing the same kit. It seemed a little weird though exciting at the same time to be running barefoot through open countryside and the streets to get there and back. The logic of this became clear after the first heavy rain of the term. Several parts pf the course became very muddy and, if we had started out with plimsolls we would have ended up barefoot or spent a lot of time retrieving muddy plimsolls from the gunge we were required to run through. It was far more sensible to start out barefoot.

Greg, why your parents wanted you to be shirtless all the time?

Let me guess why Greg's parents wanted him to attend gym class barechested.
Maybe they thought going barechested was better for his self-concept.
Maybe they thought going barechested was better for the respiration of his pores.
Maybe they were proud of how he looked and wanted other people to see him.

I give up, so I'll ask Greg:
Greg, why did your parents want you to attend gym class barechested?

Danny C,
Sounds very similar to my experience at school except we only ever wore white shorts for indoor PE. On one occasion when we played basketball our PE teacher couldn’t find the box with the bibs in and had to resort to drawing a large cross on half of the lads on chest and back (non permanent marker used).No tops were ever allowed indoors in the gym.

At a school like mine where all boys had to show up barechested for indoor lessons in our gym and sports hall as mandatory, there was no such thing as skins v shirts because none of us was ever allowed to wear a top of any kind at any point in an indoor PE class. So on the occasions we did some kind of inside team games, mostly in our sports hall, the way we had to mark our teams apart from each other was much of the time simply through the colour of our shorts, one side being black and the other white. I recall a couple of occasions when most of us had just one colour of shorts with us and to mark our teams apart one side had fabric armbands, or wristbands, quite bizarrely. There were no bibs or anything like that ever offered. It was like my school was absolutely determined to keep the purity of its boys barechested PE requirement indoors come what may, even if at times a bib or a temporary top would have made sense.

John, bibs or sashes were worn over white T shirts.

Hi Kevin, you're right it's a logical thing but it's just how it was. Taking your vest off outdoors wasn't everyone's cup of tea. My parents notified the school of their preference that I would do all exercise barechested for aand the teachers made sure that I was.

Tom B,
As you had different coloured bibs or sashes to differentiate teams in the summer did that mean that you all played shirtless?