Burnley Grammar School

I wasn't taking too much notice but one evening recently meaning within the last month, there was reference to the Bognor Cane Company on BBC South Today. I don't know why the feature was on but there was archive footage of manufacturing including forming the familiar crooked handle and the canes being boxed up for delivery. I would guess it was of 1960's vintage.

This was obviously quite a big business when the cane was present in schools and homes. There were certainly canes present both at school and at home for me in the 1970s.

"Truth Seeker" - I am damned if I do, and damned if I don't. If I don't respond, I am giving in to one especially rancorous poster and if I do I am attention seeking.

I have always felt that things that are said, apparently seriously, need to be taken seriously, and I maintain that - certainly 40 years ago, it would have been unthinkable that a father from my background and area would have sent his son to a shop to buy a cane to inflict corporal punishment on him. It certainly didn't happen in East London. I am not saying that it didn't happen between the wars, say, but I find it incredible to think this happened during my lifetime. As I said most punishments - usually administered with a hand or fist was spontaneous. Any man who did behave in such a manner, and then insist that the son remove his trousers and underpants, was, I would say, at best, a discipline fetishist, with unhealthy and obsessive thoughts about discipline, or - at worst - a dirty old man - like the then-owner of the Bognor Cane Company who even published a magazine "advising" parents on how to "discipline" their children into going to bed at a time he considered suitable etc. Interesting that though he threatend legal action, he never took it - I assume he had a very wise and astute solicitor. That seems to have been a magazine designed to appeal to perverts. I assume such magazines today might be available on the top shelf of some newsagents, or available through some outlets, who undertake to send it in a plain sealed envelope, but to suggest it was a serious magazine, is to suggest that Harry Potter stories are based on reality. . It would not be the sort of publication found in the reading room of a public library. It sounds very niche and very specialist, and so very grubby..

I have to say, frankly and unapologetically, that anybody who regards such behaviour as normal, or even amusing has a very warped mind.

We had two teachers who enjoyed using the cane - one of them clearly gained a great deal of satisfaction out of using the cane - I assume he had a very squalid life, probably a hen-pecked husband at home, who got his own back by terrorising young boys at work. The banning of caning in state schools in 1989 must have been a great blow to his morale.

We should be grateful such uncivilised behaviour is illegal today, and it is a concern that there are still people who would like to see it return.

I also have to say that I am sure a great deal of the memories recounted on many of these pages are fictional. At best, they remind you of the "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch, at worst, they sound like the synopsis for a very seedy film.

Treating children as objects for the gratification of adults is, and always has been, disgusting, like people who inflict cruelty on animals, and they should have been bought to book.

Alan has the most remarkable quality of becoming the centre of attention on this thread and the subject himself. Quite a quality, how does he manage it. I should imagine Alan you must have had the same qualities as a schoolboy with all that it obviously must have brought upon you.

What was your prime motivation for your initial comments on here and what is your prime motivation for continuing to do so considering the kind of feedback you receive?

Giles writing something far too highbrow for the level of discussion that this forum sometimes sinks to with a few on here. No wonder it has largely been ignored. The level of comment is certainly not at Ph.D level calibre, although I found it interesting and it made me think a few thoughts I'd not previously considered.

Reading about how the fathers of some posters subjected them to violence made me wonder if those fathers ever subjected their wives to violence.

Oh Dear ... Oh Dear, Oh Dear, Oh Dear ...

Alan:
My post (15/08 @ 11.22 followed someone referring to the 'Bognor Cane Company' - a 'strange' name so I googled it and got the URL that I posted. I did not read the article - I have more important things to do - and I still haven't read it other than a very quick glance.

You took my initials and posted straight after them - to me (& others) that connects me to those comments. That is not so - I merely provided information and let other people make of it what they will.

However you do say:
'when a group of clearly decent teachers complained about his questionable magazine'.
Glancing, and I stress only glancing, I came up with this, from an item in 'The Times':
BEGINS 'What is more, Family View, a copy of which I have obtained, is about as lurid as the Radio Times, and the females pictured therein are about as undressed as the average underground train traveller in summer.
I was, in short, not shocked by it -- and neither will anyone else be. Family View, which never sold more than 100 copies, has been defunct since January last year.'ENDS

You must have seen the above - it was immediately after the sentence you quoted.

(Thinks - Alan: in your young days did you never look at 'Health & Efficiency' or even buy some 'naughty' underwear?)

I do check sources - especially the ones to relating to Youtube clips - URLs have been posted with wrong descriptions and comments about filmmakers which might be considered 'legally questionable'.

I'm surprised you didn't find something to comment about in this:

Some friends and I sometimes reminisce about our younger days - 'corner shops', etc., come up in conversation but, as far as I can recall, nobody has ever mentioned canes - not even the guy who had a tough upbringing in 1950s & 60s Glasgow.

I think that, like others, I wasn't in a minority in not been beaten as I grew up. I do, though, have a very faint recollection that a neighbour may have had and used a 'switch'.

And with that - time for lunch ...

T

Alan on 15th August 2022 at 05:49

Like others, I find your post utterly offensive.

I chose to recount some details of my memories growing up and because they don't fit with your view of how things were or indeed should have been you have the audacity to suggest I am some sort of pervert. You are insulting and disgusting.

I can now see clearly why others are calling you out on a day by day basis and I'll add my voice to those who would suggest you take your problems elsewhere and stop posting here.

Andrew.

Reading between the lines I am prepared to hazard an educated guess that you probably rather liked your teacher that did that to you and she probably quite liked you. Am I close on that?

I very much liked the resolution to that and the sense of it all. Nowadays she would simply be fired or suspended pending an internal investigation. On balance I'll take the '77 style of sorting things out.

Alan, can you give me 5 examples of what you consider the top five most abusive individual things that happened to you at school and by whom. Genuine interest.

I was once slapped across the face very hard by my female form teacher, a lady of about 40 when she was in a tetchy mood and a I made a comment about it being her time of the month. She really went for me with an unexpected slap. I was shocked at the time but class found it funny. I was 15. She then said sorry at the end of the lesson and even rang my mother at home to say what she did as my face was rather flushed one side. Mum thought I deserved it. No big drama in the end. I actually find it very amusing looking back (1977) and see it for what it was in the moment. I would not dream of feeling abused. Just another part of the spectrum of 1970's school life in a regular everyday school.

I may also be one of those rare beasts who loved most PE and had no issue with shirt loss and having a naked communal shower literally held no bother whatever and felt fine and was something I never worried about for one moment at all about, although I know one or two friends felt very different. But that's all fine either way isn't it.

TimH on 15th August 2022 at 17:31

Don't worry, you're not alone, Alan will find abuse everywhere, he's obsessed and preoccupied by it.

Alan on 15th August 2022 at 19:11

Because you are now being called out by far more than me because of your views, you want the thread terminated? I say no to that, just leave everyone else to get on with it and stay away. That's the best solution.

Tim H: I wasn't dragging you into anything. I was just referencing you as the source of the articles. People are getting a little over-sensitive on here - perhaps it was time this thread was put to bed with all the venom being generated. "Andy" would have to find a new hobby to replace trolling me!

Alan:
I'm not sure why my name is being brought into this ... I merely posted the link to some articles published over 40 years ago.

Some friends and I sometimes reminisce about our younger days - 'corner shops', etc., come up in conversation but, as far as I can recall, nobody has ever mentioned canes - not even the guy who had a tough upbringing in 1950s & 60s Glasgow.

I think that, like others, I wasn't in a minority in not been beaten as I grew up. I do, though, have a very faint recollection that a neighbour may have had and used a 'switch'.

Alan - please don't get me involved in your arguments - I more important things to think about.

Robbie - I pretty much agree with earlier comments today. I haven't forgotten I need to reply to an earlier post of yours.

Tim H: A quote from one of the newspaper articles from the man who ran the "Bognor Cane Company", when a group of clearly decent teachers complained about his questionable magazine:

"Mr Huntingdon, aged 53, who is growing crosser by the minute, told me: "I am taking legal advice. What they have said is utter unmitigated rubbish. They seem to want to get hold of any stick to beat me."

Well, I thought that was what he wanted....

Alan on 15th August 2022 at 05:49

Oh dear, here we go again attempting to focus some real memories as disingenuous while failing to call out, but why would he the posts he either made or sponsored:

Stephen Breech on 14th August 2022 at 16:50

Paul H on 12th August 2022 at 13:26

Alan on 11th August 2022 at 20:30

Paul H on 11th August 2022 at 15:06

Stephen Breech on 11th August 2022 at 00:59


If your post doesn't meet Alan's view of the world as clearly:

Ben on 13th August 2022 at 16:36

Pete on 14th August 2022 at 17:45

Did not because Alan's experience was apparently different then you must be some sort of fantasist posting for some sort of ulterior motive when indeed the prime villain of the peace on that score is Alan himself.

Look let’s be clear here, just as most schools were not and are not riven with bad people wishing to do any harm or abuse in any of its forms, the majority, certainly over recent times write on here with real memories and opinions. Yes there is a minority that do not and some of the fetish minded types try to angle things very subtly but they’ve mostly been called out lately I think and fool nobody but themselves.

We don’t need to overblow the school abuse issue or the daft fetishers who come here into a bigger ratio than they actually are. There have been some brilliant teachers, of PE as well, and there have been some very good posts on here recently too and I would agree a marked improvement in the overall quality and range of content which increases the turnover of memories.

As long as the memories are real I don’t think it matters they are not related to Burnley itself.

Mention is made of the 'Bognor Cane Company': https://www.corpun.com/uksc8104.htm

I agree with Nathan, too. Just recently, for example, we have had stories of boys sent by their fathers to buy canes, inevitably ending up with a "bare bottom" caning. Perhaps in Victorian times, or perhaps in rarified upper-class homes, but speaking s a working class lad, I never knew one boy punished by his dad in this way. Yes in moments of annoyance or temper you would get a wallop, but it was spontaneous, and done with the hand, it wasn't pre-planned and regimented as has been suggested here. Who's the daddy? - there do seem to be some discipline fetishists here.

I’m a millennial male and I’ve always been interested in the sociology of clothing and nudity and would like to, at some point, study the topic as a Ph.D. student in sociology. Anyway, in reading the myriad of comments and posts about these topics received, there's always amusement about the rationale behind a particular practice that’s near-universal among guys of my generation: the “towel dance”. Among commenters, who I assume skewed towards the Baby Boomer and Silent generations, the consensus was that millennials (and probably zoomers as well) do the towel dance “because they’re insecure about their penis size”. This never sat right with me because never once growing up did I hear anyone express insecurity about that. But that might just be because people don’t say out loud what they’re insecure about. That’s how insecurities work. There was, however, a lot of insecurity about sexual orientation. Accusations would provoke emphatic denials, the word “gay” became a pejorative, and yes, the f-slur was sometimes used. But even though millennials may be more insecure about penis size than previous generations, I believe that the norm change precipitates the insecurity, not the other way around. Here’s how that happens:

1. Default towards inoffensiveness
Generally speaking, when people don’t know what the norms are, people will default to doing that which is least likely to offend others. For example, many gyms have no policy on whether working out shirtless is acceptable. But because you’re guaranteed to not offend anyone if you do wear a shirt, but might offend someone if you go shirtless, the default choice is to wear a shirt.
2. Trend towards conformity
Rather than tolerating increasingly diverse behaviors as acceptable, people tend to settle upon only one or a few behaviors that are acceptable that everyone must conform to. If a default is established, behavior will increasingly conform to the default. Continuing on the gym example, people will default to wearing a shirt until everyone wears a shirt all the time and becomes the only acceptable way to dress.
3. Establishment of a new decency standard
This step, particular to clothing standards, happens after the norm is established. Deviations from the norm gain a sexual meaning and when the norm is broken it becomes an act of indecency. “Indecency” meaning thrusting one’s sexuality on non-consenting people. To further elaborate, the “indecent act” ends up saying something about both the person committing the act as well as those subject to it. To continue the gym analogy again, for men who are insecure about their sexual orientation, they’ll see a shirtless patron as gay and indecent. Gay because the person is in view of other male patrons and indecent because of the sexual meaning that style of dress acquired. For the insecure person, they become afraid that the mere sight of the shirtless patron “makes them gay”, so they become offended.

For the towel dance, what happened, was all three of these steps. Step 1: Between “bearing it all” and the “towel dance”, you won’t offend anyone by doing the towel dance, so it becomes the inoffensive default. Step 2: After several years, it becomes THE way to change in a locker room. Step 3: Then, with everyone behaving this way in the locker room, “bearing it all” becomes sexualized and indecent. So when someone “bears it all” they’re seen as being sexual towards the other male patrons and is therefor “gay” and behaving indecently.

But what about penis size? I think we get a sense of what’s normal through experience. While not happening on a conscious level, I think there’s a part of our brains that builds a statistical model of what about a person’s body is normal. It’s the reason we can tell the difference between something that’s at the far ends of normal and an actual medical abnormality. So when the norm changes and deprives us of this information, we end up getting our sense of “normal” from other sources, like porn, which definitely are not normal. While it sounds reasonable that simply telling kids in a health/sex education class what normal is, that’s just not how our brains work. So despite telling teenagres that they’re normal, they don’t believe it because it’s not what they’re seeing “in their everyday life” (porn). All of this to say, the norm change is what led to the insecurity about penis size, and the norm change reflects insecurity about sexual orientation and decency. There’s a quote by Alejandro Jodorowsky that describes this phenomena perfectly: “Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness."

I am in full agreement with Nathan Hind.

I am also in full agreement with Colchester "Codswallop" Colin.

And to answer Claire - it's that B&W gym photo effect.

Interesting how the other Burnley page has only had 11 comments, compared with the more than 4000 here!

Colin - "I'm still trying to find something about Burnley Grammar School in amongst all the codswallop!"

Recent 3 or 4 months have actually been a vast improvement with what felt actual real stuff added, even if not Burnley based.

Just look at the older stuff written by a narrow hardcore of total weirdos who were coming onto the site as nothing more than pervy fetishists with never ending talk about jockstraps, lack of underwear, punishment canings and fake fairytales. Who seriously believed the guy who came on here and announced the whole exam year were ordered off to have cold showers before their O levels for instance, or the alleged teacher who reckoned he was told at teacher training to shower with pupils to keep an eye on them, just pure fantasy based tripe to name two. Nobody can be fooled by them. They all know exactly who they are and so does anyone reading this with any semblance of a genuine interest when they read such nonsense. There have been some rather seedy types and downright offensive ones on here.

With apologies to all those who have come here for the right reasons and with the right attitude.

Good luck finding a Burnley Pupil though. Could not agree more with you Colin.

Tony on 12th August 2022 at 02:31

I stand by what I said, I speak only for myself but you seen to want to speak for unnamed others? I have no wish to be caught in crossfire but equally, I don't want anything I say to suddenly have someone else's spin put on it to justify a long standing position of theirs which is why I find one credible and the other not.

I'll leave the point there.

Ben on 13th August 2022 at 16:36

Oh, yes, I remember the hardware shop and the array of canes.

Perhaps worse than my father bringing a new one home was being sent to buy one that was going to be used on you. The temptation of course was to buy the lightest one you thought you could get away with and on one occasion I did that. One stroke in, I was ordered up and to pull up my underpants and trousers and return it and bring back something more suitable.

I was mortified returning to the shop but the owner just laughed at me. I asked his advice this time and returned home with something I knew would pack more punch and sting. Bent back over my father said the first stroke wouldn't count and that he would now add two extras for trying to lighten the caning. Boy, did it sting. I was fifteen at the time.

The comment made on 11th August 2022 at 18:11.

I'm deeply unimpressed by the immature contribution that was made at the above time relating to what I wrote.

<That's about it from me.>
I certainly hope so! ;)

I'm still trying to find something about Burnley Grammar School in amongst all the codswallop!

Who else remembers the high streets of the 1950s and 1960s where your mother went from the butchers to the fishmongers, the green grocers to the grocers all to find the things she needed to feed the family on a day by day basis before there was anything like a supermarket.

There would also be a newsagent, sometimes a toy shop and maybe a gift shop the latter containing all sorts of things that might turn up as birthday presents.

There was also the hard ware shop but that was where your dad went to buy nails, screws, paint or whatever else was needed for home maintenance if he did DIY. They also sold things like bins and gardening equipment and tools.

I used to love the hardware shop, all those things that you could use to make things. The hardware shop though had a downside. Either hanging on a rail or maybe standing in a bin there would be an array of canes, all waiting patiently for a father to call and buy them to keep their sons in order. I remember for a time there were boxes on the shelf behind the counter marked the 'Bognor Cane Company' and they had the length and thickness of the cane printed on them. My memory is there were about five choices. The boxes were not there for long and the next time I went to the shop they were all hanging on the rail as usual.

Your dad arriving home with a 'nice new cane' was not something to look forward to, if he bought a new one, he was going to use it! Well, mine did anyway.

Let me make it clear that I was not particularly concerned about the specific experience I wrote about yesterday.

How from what I wrote has somebody else come on here and interpreted it as me having "concerns about fathers seeing bare bottoms 40 years ago". I couldn't have cared less back then in that school environment. It does not bother me. At home we acted differently. It's an interesting observation in itself I think.

Quite why someone is wilfully choosing to mis-represent what others say on here I don't know but it seems like I'm just the latest victim of it.

That's about it from me.

I played team sports as a boy and I wouldn't have thought it at all strange if my father came to the changing room and equally, PE staff were there because they had a duty of supervision.

After university I played rugby to a fairly high level for almost ten years and it was quite common that the trainers and managers were in the changing room when we were getting changed, I never thought it in the least bit unusual and it happens today just as it did then. It's all part of the camaraderie and support of the players that's important in team sport. Any other thinking is a bit abnormal.

Pete, that's all well and good but Andy does seem to have called out rather a long list of others apart from Alan and therein lies the problem for some of us here. We have a spat here between these two and others seem to get caught in the crossfire.

A message to Alan, whose comments do not cause me any great concern at all and seem fairly genuine and heartfelt, but for goodness sake Alan you can be your own worst enemy at times, stop biting back each time, have the confidence to air your own opinion, argue it by all means but don't always allow yourself to be put on the defensive.

To me, Andy is the credible poster calling out someone who isn't.

How predictable that Andy should yet again come in and demonstrate his bad mannered antipathy towards me.

I invite the cowardly "Andy" if that is his name to, yet again, email me directly and perhaps we can sort matters out to save him boring the rest of the forum yet again. So far, like most abusive keyboard warriors he hasn;t plucked up the courage to do so.