Burnley Grammar School

Hi Alan my school was just an ordinary mixed school. Your comments about us being young men are correct and a good number showed chest hair in the gym during lessons but there wasn't any option other than to get on with whatever the activity was.

I was interested to read the comment below, about a 'bog standard comprehensive' school.

My old grammar school was made into a comprehensive in the mid 1970s, which was, (thankfully), after I had left.

The old traditions were discarded, uniform was abolished, competitiveness became an ugly word and standards of attainment/dress/conduct collapsed.

Replacing the old "GCEs", the comprehensive's new "CSE" exams were 'non-fail'. This meant that all one needed to do to gain a 'pass' was to put one's name on the exam paper. Not much to aim for there, then!

On a subsequent visit I was dismayed to find a Police car parked outside the front entrance. My old headteacher (by then retired) would have been stricken with shame.

Although it was demanding, I was proud to attend my old grammar school, and grateful for the high standards it inculcated, which gave me many advantages in later life.

Toby P: Very spartan for the 1990s - was this an ordinary comprehensive school, or a grammar or private school?. It seems incredible that they could force lads of 18 to adopt their minimal kit.

I ask because in 1993 I was working with 18 year olds and by that age & by that time they were men, not boys. Some of them you could barely get them to turn up on time, still less dictate how they dressed

It would be useful if people would say what type of school they went to - mine was a bog standard council comprehensive.

My experience of PE/Games lessons was pretty much like Bo but I left school at 18 in 1993. We were always stripped to the waist in the gym regardless, teams were distinguished by çolour of shorts, white for off number classes and black for evens. There's a few comments about sweating indoors and it was expected by the teacher. If you didn't you'd get laps of the field or worse an outdoor fitness session with one of the PE teachers always topless regardless of the conditions. When I was 15 I was given laps by my Physics teacher and when the scheduled day arrived it was snowing constantly but it made no difference so I and a younger 13 year old lad plodded round together cursing the respective teachers. Not very nice.

Danny, could you link the photo you showed Alan?

Rob,we were not allowed to wear any form of underwear and had regular checks to see that we were not wearing any,which I found intrusive.
I was allowed to wear underwear under my school shorts and of course at home,but never for sporting activities.

Jeff.
You were lucky getting your jockstrap at that age. I was certainly grateful when we were allowed to wear one at 15. I felt that I needed one earlier but we got there in the end.

Rob,
It sounds to me that your pe teacher ought to have introduced you to jockstraps rather sooner. I would not have wanted to wait until I was 15 to get one; I got my first jockstrap when I was 13, in third form.

John: First off I'd like to say how modern your school must have been - in the 80s and 90s you still had boys forced to be barechested not only in the gym but out in the street.

You chose to take your top off, and as I have made clear before, I have no problems with that, if it is a free choice. I just objected to P.E. teachers who forced you into that position - you went overnight from junior school and it's relaxed attitudes to the barking and yelling more worthy on an army assault course.

I suspect reading your post, you responded better to a friendly, informal approach than the semi-militaristic one of your school, and I can understand that perfectly - I think many lads would.

You got to enjoy the subject because you wanted to, and you were encouraged to by outside influences - I wish that could have been the case for far many more of us.

I would like to tell you about my childhood, I was born in 1948, went to primary school which I enjoyed, PE was just 5 a sides football in the school yard, no football kit just your school shorts and shirt, I was frequently in the top 3 in my class in most subjects, but come age 11 and going to secondary school was a culture shock, wasn't prepared for it at all and hated it. I bunked off on a regular basis especially when it was PE as that was horrific, gym wasn't bare chested and there were no showers anyway, maybe a quick body wash in the toilet block and I really hated cross country and a few times ran home as it was close to the route and hid in the garden shed, needless to say I was punished a lot at home and my parents were hauled into school to try and get me to see sense and stop rebelling, not much worked until I was about 13, my dad worked at a French tyre company with a name that began with M, we used the works social club a lot in those days as my dad liked to socialise, one night in the big main room used for dances and such there was mens keep fit on, the main room had sliding doors to partition it off when private functions were on, dad suggested I join up, I laughed and emphatically said no, after the keep fit was over my dad had a word with the instructor who he knew well and explained the problems he had with me, he came over and asked why I hated PE, I shrugged my shoulders and said it was boring and not worth bothering with, he said well come next week and give it a go, if you don't like it then that's okay nobody would force you to come again.

Well I sort of forgot about it until there came a knock on the door and it was the instructor, who said "ready John?" I looked bemused and said I wasn't changed and he said well get changed then, dad said that as well, I scooted upstairs and put on my school PE kit and plimsolls and joined him downstairs, it was only a short walk to the club and we chatted about school as we walked, in there it was all set up, what shocked me was that the men are and there were about 10 or so of them were young and the instructor explained there were works apprentices and he was their fitness instructor and they were doing extra PE because they liked it. We started doing warm up exercises before the group broke into small groups to do their fitness regime, the instructor was one on one with me, showing me what to do and encouraging me, I noticed that some of the men ended up taking off their tee shirts after awhile because they were sweating a lotted so was I with doing star jumps and press ups and sit ups and stuff, so I ripped off mine and did the rest of the hour or so bare chested like the rest... I actually enjoyed it and vowed at the end to be back next week. it took awhile but somehow I changed my attitude and became more confident after that and attended school all the time and actually enjoyed PE and because I naturally sweat a lot when exercising I was allowed to be bare chested, in PE and cross country, although I wasn't a great academic, but I did okay and actually won a prize for being the most improved student the next year, some years later after I left school I passed by the route of the cross country runs and saw loads of boys running bare chested and I like to think I started a trend..Well maybe !!

Danny C, tell us more about your drama class and why do students need to be shirtless for it? Same for school productions. What do your classmates think of it?

Ben: You wrote: " More than other teachers, he had succeeded in giving us an idea of what it meant to be young men which we almost were when leaving school. "

This reminds me of the story of the lady who once confronted Louis Armstrong and asked him to define rhythm to her. He replied "lady, if you have to ask then you ain't got it".

I assume you left school at 16 or 17. Surely you and your mates KNEW what being a young man was, without having had to take your clothes off to do it?.

This is one of my problems with the old system that dragged on far too long - the generation before us left school, at 15 and were established in work, long before today's school-leavers have started, yet here you have this teacher, who - whatever his motives - and let's hope your more benign analysis is the right one - making you take your clothes off for things that could have easily be done with a top on. At 16 you were a young man, (not "almost") and you had certain rights. I am sure there was at least a section of your class who did not appreciate being made to run through the streets with no top on, but because so many of you appreciated it, they just had to accept it and get on with it. Perhaps the increasingly delayed time of allowing people to leave school (if you don't have a job or an apprenticeship these days, theoretically you can be forced to stay till age 18), is what makes young men and women less sure of their status?

I sometimes feel that certain teachers would have made excellent prison wardens, thanks to their rigid codes of discipline - it is unfortunate that they were given so much leeway with children, who were often quite frightend of them.

Try as I might I can't understand why you feel you would not have become the man you are without his - what shall we call it? - tough love. Did any lad take advantage of being able to wear a shirt in your final year?

I wonder how your teacher and others like him coped when they found they were no longer able to inflict their methods - I don't know how old your teacher was, but it is I suppose possible he is still in the profession. That is another sad aspect - a lot of those teachers were not old men, and should have adapted to modern methods by choice not by compulsion.

I'm very pleased for those who had their body confidence enhanced and their overall self esteem raised by their compulsory barechested PE lessons and showering. I'm glad some here look back and think running shirtless in the colder months in a group helped bond them together. I did all these things, the barechested cross country runs often caked in splattered mud, that even took us out into public areas before coming back into school. I did all the barechested PE lessons indoors twice a week. Year after year, three PE classes per week, even outdoors shirtless all spring and summer and early autumn. I did all the swimming lessons I was ever told to do, which was a lot as we had our own school pool and used a public one. I did annual sports days when we had to remain shirtless for hours on end, with crowds of parents and other friends and hangers on present - Alan has even been able to see my summer 1982 class sports day school picture, taken with all my classmates and myself barechested together posing for the camera. I did drama classes shirtless quite frequently too, and even had to appear in a couple of school productions in a state of semi undress in front of the school audience and a parental one. So having spent what felt like half my teenage school life being told to get my kit off on most days of the week, spring, summer, autumn and winter, surely I should have well and truly faced down my fears and come out of it with all my body confidence issues banished, yes? Er, no actually. It made no real difference in the end, despite the fact I was decent looking, had a lean physique and clearly had nothing to be overly concerned about and actually liked some of the stuff we did in PE and wanted to stay fit and healthy.
Most professional athletes don't compete barechested do they, unless swimming or diving. So why did schoolboys have to do so, mandated so rigidly like at my school, even down to things like games of ping-pong on table tennis tables in the gym with nothing but shorts, not even any footwear at all.
I'm afraid there are suspicious teaching staff. I was deeply suspicious of our deputy headmaster who would often enter our changing rooms for no legitimate reason to converse with a PE teacher about nothing very much, while all the time keeping his eyes focused on boys coming and going from showers with nothing on, including me. I noticed his ways. I never forgot his behaviour. It seemed odd to 14 year old me in 1983 and does even more so now. I found out he died this summer. He ended up with a Knighthood after the Government appointed him to a prestigious education role about fifteen years ago.

William. You seem to be an advocate for naturism. Perhaps you should retire to one of the countries you admire so much, and run around au natrel . to your hearts content.

Britain IS a damp country, and to deny that is ludicrous.

Alan, There is no point disagreeing with me so stridently when my experience of school was very different from yours. I am not advocating anything, merely describing how I benefited from the gym regime at my school. Others have done the same.
My comments are on the record. It is obvious that you have put words in my mouth. Nothing more need be said.
You are wrong about the effect of climate. Attitudes towards nudity in Scandinavia, Germany and Russia are more relaxed than in Britain.
The recent Eton case was shocking. I never experienced anything like that. Our gym master did supervise our showers but he was beyond reproach. Please don't tell me that he was a voyeur. I knew the man for seven years whereas you did not.

William, you wrote: "Alan advocates a level of male modesty that many would think excessive......

Our gym regime was disciplined and the minimal kit helped me with bodily confidence. I realised that there was no good reason for worrying about wearing just shorts or going through the showers, and thus school helped to liberate me from that anxiety about bodies and nudity which is rather British and very different from the more balanced cultural tradition of northern Europe."

Here we go again. If "discipline" (of which you and others are so fond - some would say over- fond) could only be obtained by being shirtless, why do we not have the armed services or police marching round bare-chested?. They seem to manage Trooping the Colour, and policing demos perfectly well clothed..

Though you in your somewhat selfish and myopic view seems to think everyone is comfortable pounding the public streets and even high streets wearing only shorts - .well, that is not true Just because something appeals to you doesn't mean that it appeals to everybody, or give you the right to assume it does, and if it doesn't it is me or anyone else who didn't enjoy it that is out of step..

You were comfortable, fine. Those that are OK with it, fine, but as you generously point out towards the end of your message, British people can be somewhat more modest. We live by and large in a damp chilly country, not St Tropez, Melbourne or California.

It is damned nonsense to suggest wanting to wear a shirt, and not having PE teachers looking down your shorts to see if you are wearing underwear (as another writer has posted today) is "excessive". Just let teachers try those tricks today and see where they would end up - crown court, I expect - to their credit the decent ones would discourage nudity. I repeat there has to be something wrong psychologically for grown men to take that much interest in children's bodies, to the extent of peering down their shorts. That is voyeurism, pure and simple

Finally have you not been reading your newspapers lately? - just last week a former Eton tutor got 8 years in prison for fondling young boys, and even in my earlier years they were frequent stories of dirty minded scout leaders hauled before the courts. Just being a teacher or scoutmaster, however "disciplined" your approach is not a down payment on a halo, or an assurance of probity.

Alan, I have not, in any comments, suggested that boys must be shirtless. The shirtless issue is something you’ve latched onto.

I’ve suggested basic kit with either T shirt, vest or shirtless along with shorts - uniformity across the group of course. Dispensing with branded tracksuits, baselayers etc as seems to be required now.

I believe physical training should be disciplined based on what I have seen and experienced. I believe with training and nutritional education every boy can develop to be fit and healthy with two or three sessions per week in school.

I wish I’d understood that. I’m playing catch up a couple of days later.

Alan, I can tell you why we encouraged our PE teacher and his shirtless policy. More than other teachers, he had succeeded in giving us an idea of what it meant to be young men which we almost were when leaving school. We were at ease with our developing bodies, we accepted your own body and were taught to be respectful of others and their physique, we developed a strong feeling of togetherness as boys which probably came from living up to harsh sounding challenges like the shirtless cross-country run in freezing temperatures as a group. He certainly had a profound effect on me and on my classmates as we experienced that we were able to succeed in seemingly adverse conditions and the we did not need to be pampered or protected. He made us feel proud of who we were!

Ben, I thought your comment was very interesting, especially as you were at school in the '90s. What you meant by bodily changes was clear enough to me.
I doubt whether Alan's time at what he describes as a "dump" in east London is a sound basis for dismissing the experiences of others which are different from his own, or for making sweeping assertions about the generality of boys' schools. Alan advocates a level of male modesty that many would think excessive. To justify it gym masters have to be perverts, boys have to be "fodder" and parents naive or "ill-advised".
Our gym regime was disciplined and the minimal kit helped me with bodily confidence. I realised that there was no good reason for worrying about wearing just shorts or going through the showers, and thus school helped to liberate me from that anxiety about bodies and nudity which is rather British and very different from the more balanced cultural tradition of northern Europe.

Ben: You need to remember that perverts can be teachers and teachers can be perverts, or at the very least drunk on power. You yourself wrote in your piece that when arrangements were bought more in line with modern day thinking in the 90s, and you were allowed shirts, some of you refused to go along with it and how "grateful" your teacher was that you stuck to his old policy of being shirtless. If it gave him that much gratitude, I put it to you that you have to question why outdated concepts gave him such pleasure. You might also wonder why some of the boys who so admired his strict discipline wanted to encourage him. It sounds almost like Stockholm syndrome.

I am sorry my original response upset you so much

Alan: There was nether any suggestion of checking out other boys genitals as you seem to imply. What I wanted to say with 'bodily changes' was meant in much broader way and he encouraged us to pay attention to our own bodies and to notice how we developped in muscle mass, stature, etc. It is deplorable how some people here are obsessed with sexual aspects that most teachers, apart from a few perverts, never brought up.

Tom B: Are you seriously suggesting the only way to get boys working hard and to conform to your ideas of "discipline" is for them to be bare chested?. Really?. Why? The kids today still work hard, without that requirement.

Ben: Your teachers views on "physical education" and the tacit suggestion the boys might like to check each others development out, sounds very questionable. It smacks of voyeurism to me. It is always noticeable that such teachers were known for (and apparently admired for being disciplinarians

I went to a High School in Essex in the 60s. I think that our PE teacher was ex army and so was very strict. We had to wear white shorts for gym and games including cross country runs. He insisted on us not wearing tops or any pants under our shorts. In fact he used to stand by the door of the changing rooms to check. We had to open our shorts so that he could look down to check that we had no pants on. Eventually we got used to it. It wasn't until we go to age14/15 that we became embarrassed by everything "flapping around" when we ran. The white shorts when wet left nothing to the imagination. Some of us by the age of 15 or so were quite mature and had developed quite well ie a bit of chest hair and shaving a couple of time a week! So we explained our concerns to our PE teacher and asked if we could wear pants under our shorts. He said "no" as it wasn't healthy, but he introduced us to and showed us a jockstrap. He suggested that we got one and said that would give us the support we needed and keep us cool at the same time. So most of us took his advice. He was right. We felt better about ourselves and no longer embarrassed. As we got older we began to respect him even though he was really quite scary at the start.

I went to an inner city comprehensive in the 90ies and our PE Kit was white shorts for gymnastics and PE. Outside we were allowed socks, trainers and a vest in the winter term even though cross-country was always conducted shirtless, irrespective of the weather.
PE was boys only and besides general fitness sessions we engaged in a wide range of sports, basketball, badminton, table-tennis, etc all done shirtless and barefoot. For team sports one team was given coloured sashes to wear across our bare chests. Gymnastics was a coed lesson with the girls in leotards.
What I would like to emphasise is that although this might be considered a harsh regime by today’s standards, it truly helped me a lot to become a more confident boy. Coming from a single parent family with only my mom and two sisters, I did not really have any male role model and was forced to figure out for myself what it meant to be a boy. I did however intuitively understand that I was different from my sisters.
Our PE teacher’s approach genuinely helped me a lot. Even though he was a disciplinarian which in itself is all but negative and us boys liked him for being strict but fair, he always explained his reasons instead of demanding only obedience.
In our first lesson in year 6 he had us lined up in our minimal kit and told us that he was aware that some of us might feel uncomfortable and wanted to wear a T-shirt but that his lesson was called ‘physical education’ and that meant we were going to work on our bodies, our physique and that there was no reason for a boy to cover up. We should learn to appreciate the freedom us boys could have, feel at ease with our bodies and notice the bodily changes we were going to go through. He made it clear that he would not tolerate any bullying in his lessons and that it was going to be a place were us boys should be comfortable with ourselves working out shirtless.
He truly encouraged every single boy not only the less sporty ones but even the only overweight classmate, we always tried to please him and give our best and we always looked forward to his lessons as a result of which, I did become a more confident boy, started to take my shirt off in front of my mom and sisters and generally began to assert my masculinity more.
In my last year of school there was a change of PE kit and boys were now expected to wear a top. However, all the boys in my class and in at least one other one protested until we were allowed to continue to do PE barechested. We could tell he was very grateful to us allowing him to teach his philosophy of PE and I generally felt sorry for him and the younger boys that would miss out on an important experience.
Being expected to take your top off, to be pushed out of your comfort zone in a secure and encouraging male environment gives a boy a lot of confidence and helps him grow up into well balanced man at ease with himself and others.

Most of the boys in my school (and presumably the girls) would, if given the chance, have preferred to avoid the rigours of regular PE and sports.

Our PE teacher had many years of experience in overcoming these lazy attitudes, and due to his efforts, I left school lean and fit.

If I had been able to exercise my own choice, there is no doubt I would have become a "couch potato", with all of its health implications for my later life.

As it is I am nearly 70 and (touch wood) in reasonably good shape , owing to the healthy exercise habits drummed into me at that school.

Although I hated and feared the PE teacher at the time, if he was still alive today I would probably thank him, and even buy him a drink!

I am fed up with the continued implication that my belief boys should receive a hard physical education and that a fairly basic kit such as that boys still regularly wear wear for gymnastics or boxing training is adequate is perverted and homoerotic.

I will also not apologise for the suggestion that some boys, perhaps many boys, need to be forced well out of their comfort zone in order to get the best out of them. I know because I was one. If I was given an inch to slack, I’d take a mile.

Hi Dave, Early part of the decade - our school was a dump in East London run by teachers hanging on for retirement, as was the headmaster. The PE teacher was younger but clearly had issues, to make him the dictatorial misanthrope he was - a man who thought the louder you shouted, the more demeaning your remarks, the more obedience you got.

Our teacher told us what to wear - nothing was ever explained , we were clearly considered too unimportant to communicate with. We were merely fodder for their monthly pay check, much like raw material in a factory.

Several boys were uncomfortable with the set-up, one even more so than me. You couldn't complain because it would encourage ridicule from the teacher, and also from some of the more- gung-ho boys, who tried to emulate the teachers "tough" demeanour to ingratiate themselves with him.

You were supposed to run around the streets in his minimal "normal" kit, but I had discovered truancy, which was my answer to the regime.

All the schools featured on this site were/are based in the North of England. It is a shame there isn't an inner London school represented. as London schools seemed to be run on the whims of the headmaster and a cadre of favoured teachers, and there were many others which were as run down as ours. Our dump was demolished long ago, I am happy to say.

Alan, I agree. The regime we were subjected to wouldn't have been permitted in our Prisons at the time.

Hi Alan!

From since when did you go to secondary school? I mean: Was it the first or second part of the 80's or the 90's..etc.(Sorry if my english is not perfect. I'm from middle Europe).
You wrote that you wore shorts only in indoor lessons. What was the reason given to have such a minimal PE kit? Was it a uniform list or the PE teacher himself told it to you? How did you play team sports with everyone being shirtless? What was the other boy's reaction having to be barechested for all of the PE lessons? Did they tell something to each other about that? As I rememeber here you mentioned co-ed lessons. Why did your school need co-ed lessons? I've thougt in England PE lessons are separate.
You wrote that you had barechested PE even in outdoors. Were there some reason said why? Did you have to run on public streets?
Were there any PE lesson where boys were allowed to wear a shirt?

Alan, thank you for your profound comments,it was certainly a tradition to wear shorts only for games and running at the school that I attended.
As the older boys accepted this, boys who objected would be in a minority and teachers and parents alike also accepted this bizarre tradition.