Burnley Grammar School

Over fifty years ago, my PE teacher said that some of us would miss the discipline of school PE. Former pupils had approached him about this and he had taken them on. I never knew quite what he meant as he was a real martinet and an outspoken advocate for corporal punishment (much to my parents' approval).
Although I have kept fit since school days (running, swimming) I was never tempted to contact him.

Yes, maybe!

The point is that while society may demand PE/PT and education is done in a soft fashion, hundreds of young people want to put themselves through a harsh training course. During the course they get shouted at, get homesick, repeatedly end up crying their eyes out, but in the end they achieve something and see the value in tough discipline.

Tom B, I remember my Army selection test held in mid November. We were made to strip to the waist both inside and outdoors for all PT. We also stripped off during basic training too Those lads would be far better off being made to strip off to exercise for the whole 6 months regardless of whether females are present.

While not directly related to the image, I have just watched a programme on My5, the channel 5 on demand service called Raw Recruits - a fly on the wall documentary about the Army Foundation College in Harrogate.

Boys and girls aged 16 and 17 join by choice for what by modern standards is a pretty harsh 6 month residential course involving everything from fitness, leading to a 6 mile march in full kit, to the theory required to be a soldier. Interestingly the mixed sex situation doesn’t seem to cause any issue though rules against bonding too closely are strictly enforced.

It’s well worth a watch.

Josh H. Yes you are right. I think the number of things that boys can do together in a single sex arena have diminished a lot since i was a kid. There used to be scouts, boys clubs, many single sex schools ( the 2 in Portsmouth boys and girls have done mixed).

I think it is a shame as there was i noticed growing up a different vibe and group dynamic when it was boys only and I'm sure the same for girls only. Nowadays it seems everything has to be mixed except sport.

Not sure that this a good thing. The girl guide movement is thriving which suggests girls certainty want girl only space

Stuart, your comments re single sex groups confirms the thoughts I shared on 7th June. It is interesting to read that girls also like their own space as your comments re Guiding show. Also I am in favour of singles sex schools because there is no distraction from the opposite sex. However, it is essential that there should be some opportunity to mix so that social skills can be learnt which I think is something missing today.

Wiliam that you tube clip did not leave much to the imagination especially the boy in the front on the far right column nearest the watching adults!

Re all male groups - i too was a scout leader when it was boys only and certainly my group of lads were not keen on letting girls in to their boy only space. I know from others that the dynamic changed. Interesting though that the guide movement is flourishing by offering girls only space, something now not afforded to boys.

Where i lice now two years ago the education authority closed the 2 surviving single sex schools and made them both mixed.
It seems to be a trend, though my daughters now aged in their mid 20s tell me they really liked their single sex girls secondary school ( state) they went to and not having boys there. That school and the boys one next door in Salisbury are still going strong.

In reply to Tom B I agree again with your comments and I read a long while ago that when asked, young lads liked to take an opportunity to go a way in all male groups when they could enjoy time together which was different to when girls were present.
I am sure it is the same for girls also because they seem to like the opportunity to go a way without lads being around.
It does seem that today society is trying to get men to be less masculine in their out look.

Josh H, Our gym master didn't check our shorts either. He supervised the showers after gym and saw us when we stripped so would have seen any pants. I can't remember anyone trying to flout the no pants rule. I never found it uncomfortable and got to like the minimal kit.
Besides, as in the photo we did a lot of exercises with legs up (handstands, ropes, beam etc) where pants would have been seen. Every gym lesson started with star jumps, causing obvious flopping about in the shorts if no pants are worn. There is a clip on Youtube called Physical Fitness 1936 in which boys demonstrate PE, starting with star jumps, which shows what I mean. We were more likely to laugh at it than be embarrassed.

I firmly believe rules and fear get in the way of real positive experiences both in schools, sports clubs and other organisations.

I also believe that the push for gender equality is detrimental particularly for boys in organisations such as the scouts. Boys need to experience freedom with their peers and they cannot do that with girls involved.

Although I asked the question about inspecting under the shorts at P.E. lessons, I can never remember our teachers doing that.The majority of us wore dark blue or black shorts and I do not think boys flouted the no pants rule. WE knew it was in place.rule. Perhaps the thought of severe punishment was enough. However, I remember that there was only one occasion when punishment was administered and that was when one lad wore the new fashion white umbro nylon shorts, and I do not know to this day what he was thinking but he kept his pants on and they were visible.Perhaps because they were white they would not be seen.He was sent to the changing room to remove them and on his return was punished with "touch your toes" and several whacks of the plimsoll.
I agree with you Tom B about trust by our parents in the teachers , and leaders of other organisations,and I think this was in a way passed onto us through their trust in them.
As you say it is sad that there have been a small but significant scandals which has in some way reduced peoples trust in teachers and other leaders.
For many years I was responsible for leading a Scout Troop. This was back in the days when it was an all male organisation. I started off as was in those days a Wolf Cub and progressed through all sections of scouting, and that experience and learning from my leaders taught me how to become a leader myself.
During the year we would hold several camps the highlight being a two week camp in August, when we travel quite a long way from home. The parents trusted me and the other leaders to take care and protect their lads during this time, and we used common sense which now has to be legislated as Child Protection. We never had any problems or complaints from parents.
When I married, I moved to another county, and did not return to Scouting as a leader although I do support my son in his scouting. However, whilst I know it is for protection of the child and the adults, all that is involved in safety and protection makes me reluctant to become involved. I just support with fund raising from the sidelines.
Have things changed for the better, or are there so many safety regulations that they inhibit the freedom of spirit for the young people of today?

Yes at my prep and senior school definitely no underpants in PE and at prep school one teacher checked. Like others state being caught meant a whacking on the now bare bottom having removed the offending garment!
Always showers afterwards. I still find it incredible today that kids dont shower after sports. So unhygenic.

We had a no underpants rule for PE and it was enforced quite simply.

PE shorts were white and thin cotton. All the PE teacher did was instruct us to turn and face the bench in the changing room and bend over and he could see as clear as day who was wearing underpants and any lad caught had to take them off and the plimsoll was applied to his bottom several times usually while it was bare.

As this happened at the start of every lesson there was no cheating on the rule. I remember once rumaging in my bag for my shorts, trousers off but underpants still on, pulling out my shorts and having them in both hands as though ready to put them on, the PE teacher's whistle blew and he roared at me, 'you're wearing underpants lad, get them off now'. I was going to comply but did so very quickly lest the plimsoll land.

I guess parents just trusted teachers more when it came to underpants inspection and being present in the showers/changing rooms if they were really aware of it at all. Teachers were trusted to discipline after all.

It is sad that there have been a small but significant number of scandals which have destroyed trust in teachers and sports coaches as I do believe the team sport, locker room and communal shower experience is good for boys in particular.

My school enforced a "no underpants" rule, but formal inspections were not needed.

Our gym shorts were made of material that was so thin, that the outline of any underwear was immediately apparent, and the culprit swiftly dealt with.

With regards to the checking for wearing of pants at P E was there no complaints from parents that a teacher might look down the back even more so the front of the lads shorts?

Alan P

I too remember the checks at the start of the gym class. I was always amazed how a minority of boys didn't seem to grasp the rule but, as you say, a few whacks of the gym shoe seemed to assist them in their understanding! It didn't take long before adherence was 100%!

Graham, James B, no, pyjama bottoms weren’t compulsory and most boys didn’t bother. It was basically easier not too. I was much happier sleeping naked, as were almost all of my friends. As to pe shorts, yes, the rule of no underpants was checked by looking down the back (and sometimes the front) of shorts. Once you knew the penalty, ie gym shoe, you abided by the rules.

Alan P

Like you we were only allowed to wear the white cotton gym shorts in pe. This was at a boys only grammar school in the mid -60's. The 'no underpants' rule was enforced with the gym shoe being used should anyone be stupid enough to be caught. Did your pe teacher do any checks to ensure adherence to the rule?

Alan P
Were pj bottoms compulsory or optional at your second school?

Graham, similar in senior school (From age 12) which was a different school although we could wear pyjama bottoms. Swimming was naked up to year 3 so about 15. Never an issue for me and I was in swimming team so got extra tuition. PE was in white cotton shorts only and rigidly enforced. The pe teacher was quite a one for giving the gym shoe and you ended up with a very red backside which was awkward if you then had swimming practice later in the day. Remember, in those days, this was the norm and totally endorsed by my parents.

Alan P
And one last question - well, three actually! Were you at the same school right through your schooldays, or did you move on to s senior school in due course? If so, did you encounter the same nightwear/swimwear arrangements? And what about your PE kit, did you wear tops or were you topless?

Emma,
I’m a Godparent but not a parent. Enabling your children to attend boarding school will have helped them to become independent people and to make lifelong friends. Allowing your sons to sleep naked instead of making them wear unnecessary pyjamas ensured that they could form their own identities. In my opinion you are great parents.

Great that you had such very enlightened parents, And how about you? Chilly dormitory apart, were you OK with being expected to go without PJs. Did it come as a surprise to you, and we're you used to sleeping in PJs before you went? I don't imagine there were many 9 year olds sleeping naked back in the 1980s, I can understand boarding school staff turning a blind eye to boys choosing to sleep naked, but actively enforcing it seems a bit strange.

Graham, my parents didn’t bat an eyelid. The only thing they were slightly sympathetic with were the freezing cold dormitories in the winter. We wore our school jumpers When it was really cold but had to remember to take them off before we were woken up by matron or the house master. Swimming naked was fine, it was just normal. I always enjoyed it.

At my all boys prep boarding school in the 1970’s, pyjamas were on the clothing list but from about the age of 9 never worn. You could wear them if you had a letter but no one did that. Never a complaint except when it was bitterly cold. Same as swimming trunks, on list but never worn

Alan P
What did your own parents, and the parents of all the other boys, think about this?

Alan P
What did your own parents, and the parents of all the other boys, think about this?

At my all boys prep boarding school in the 1970’s, pyjamas were on the clothing list but from about the age of 9 never worn. You could wear them if you had a letter but no one did that. Never a complaint except when it was bitterly cold. Same as swimming trunks, on list but never worn

John
I wouldn't exactly say that I was "made" to go back to wearing a PJ top in the winter. We were very much a PJ-wearing household in those days, and when I was invited to ditch my PJ top, it was on the understanding that I would go back to wearing it when the hot weather came to an end, something I was happy to go along with. It was nearly November before Mum commented meaningfully that the nights were getting colder, softening the blow with the promise that "next summer" wasn't very far away. Having enjoyed my brief period of freedom, I made sure that "next summer" came around rather more rapidly than Mum expected, and for some strange reason that Mum never understood, "next winter" lasted barely a couple of months. Subsequent winters failed to appear at all!