Burnley Grammar School

Emma
I can readily identify with your comments about peer group influence among children. When bare-chested PE was introduced at my secondary school when I was about 13 (late 1950s), most of us were initially apprehensive at the prospect of appearing topless in front of our classmates, despite happily stripping down to shorts or swimming trunks in a pool, at the beach or park and in our back gardens. But by the end of the first week we took bare-chested PE for granted, and nobody in my class wanted to revert to wearing a vest for hot sweaty exercise.

But it went further than that. For most of us, PE tops had been our everyday underwear vests, few parents having sufficient spare cash for dedicated PE tops, used only a couple of hours a week during term time. Taking our lead from a small group of lads who proudly never wore vests, even in winter, the remainder of us habitual vest wearers progressively stopped putting our vests back on after PE, then not wearing them to school on PE days, and within a couple of weeks, virtually all of us had stopped wearing vests altogether. Mum had a few, ultimately fruitless, words to say on the matter, fairly easily dismissed by the traditional kids claim that "everybody/nobody does . . .". Such is the power of the peer group.

John - what a lovely and kind comment. Thank you. Are you a parent?

Emma,
I think that you and your husband are really great parents.

Graham - well our oldest was 10 when he started boarding but he followed the other boys at school in abandoning wearing pjs around about 13 if I remember. His two brothers just followed their elder brother rather along the lines as your sister followed you. It never bothered me in the slightest. All harmless stuff. Hubby may have been an influence but l really believe children are largely influenced by their peer group - you know how they adopt their own fashion and codes - identity shaping

Graham - well our oldest was 10 when he started boarding but he followed the other boys at school in abandoning wearing pjs around about 13 if I remember. His two brothers just followed their elder brother rather along the lines as your sister followed you. It never bothered me in the slightest. All harmless stuff. Hubby may have been an influence but l really believe children are largely influenced by their peer group - you know how they adopt their own fashion and codes - identity shaping

Emma
Boys will be boys! And girls too, given the speed with which my copy-cat sister discarded her own skimpy nightwear once she got wind of my new bedtime fashion.

You said you allowed your boys to sleep naked at home once they started doing it at boarding school. How old were they then, and did they usually wear PJs before they went away to school? Did they actually ask your approval, or was it accepted as a fait accomplis without further discussion?

When I went home at half-term with my PJs still in their wrappers, Dad joked that there was probably still time for them to go back to the shop for a refund (there was), while Mum instinctively, and correctly, deduced that I would no longer need the PJ bottoms I was sleeping in before I went away and quietly removed them from my bedroom without further comment! Both laughingly agreed that while PJs featured on the boarders' clothing list, nothing was said about actually wearing them, hinting that they might follow my example.

Graham - yes, your situation reflects that of my husband. He tells me that he returned home without his pjs ever having been used. Our boys had pjs too but the school seemed not to enforcing its own regulations with regard to them being worn in the 'seniors', at least it saved us the unnecessary expense of buying further pairs!

Emma - Boarding school at age 11 for me. Despite not having worn a PJ top for several years, Mum insisted that I took 3 brand new PJ sets as specified, only to find that birthday suits were de facto sleepwear throughout the school. She and Dad were quite amused at half term when I arrived home with them still in their wrappers.

Graham - definitely their boarding school but also some influence of their dad but he was an ex boarder! How about yourself and what about your own offspring?

Emma - what made your boys choose to sleep naked. Was it the influence of boarding school life, or your own parental suggestion?

We have allowed our boys to sleep naked ever since they started at boarding school to do so. Seems a healthier aspect for males too. Only in winter do they make a grab for a tshirt!

Chris G,
It was good that your parents suggested that you slept shirtless but they shouldn’t have made you wear a pj top in the winter. I started sleeping shirtless on my return from school camp aged 12. Males have a higher upper body temperature than women so it’s a much healthier and more comfortable way for guys to sleep.

Andrew H, I was just a few months short of 11 when I first slept topless, but it was at Mum and Dad's suggestion during an extended spell of hot weather, rather than an outright order, and a suggestion I was more than happy to go along with. Unfortunately, once the cooler weather returned, I was expected to wear my PJ top again. However, it was a step in the right direction. Over the next few years I progressively extended the topless season a bit further each year until by the time I went away to boarding school at 15, I had been continuously sleeping topless for well over a year. When I got to my new school, I was pleasantly surprised to find that everyone slept bare-chested, so I fitted in immediately.

Wow this brings back memories. Our school had a bare chest policy for PE and Games with no exceptions from the age of 9-18. The school was mixed but we did share the gym very rarely. There was a small blackboard attached to the wall with the word "Skins" written just in case you'd forgotten.The gym windows were reinforced glass and ran the length of the gym it was easy for the girls to watch us especially with staggered lunch queues whic formed in the corridor and the girls took full advantage. There was the expectation to perform cross country runs and laps of the field also, which could be quite harsh depending on the time of year. I took a good few of them, usually for not paying attention in English lessons. It was common to see lads doing laps of the field and outdoor exercise or football whatever the weather. My parents fully supported the schools stance having boys strip to the waist and when I turned 11 my dad told me I'd sleep topless and stop wearing a vest to bed. I remember my elder sisters had a good laugh at that.

Andrew H,
You clearly went to a good school and had sensible parents, I can’t understand why your sisters thought that it was funny for your dad to make you sleep barechested. I wish my dad had got me to sleep shirtless at 11 as he’d have saved me the huge embarrassment of going on school camp age 12 with a full set of pjs. Other lads made fun of me for not already sleeping shirtless as a 12 year old.

Wow this brings back memories. Our school had a bare chest policy for PE and Games with no exceptions from the age of 9-18. The school was mixed but we did share the gym very rarely. There was a small blackboard attached to the wall with the word "Skins" written just in case you'd forgotten.The gym windows were reinforced glass and ran the length of the gym it was easy for the girls to watch us especially with staggered lunch queues whic formed in the corridor and the girls took full advantage. There was the expectation to perform cross country runs and laps of the field also, which could be quite harsh depending on the time of year. I took a good few of them, usually for not paying attention in English lessons. It was common to see lads doing laps of the field and outdoor exercise or football whatever the weather. My parents fully supported the schools stance having boys strip to the waist and when I turned 11 my dad told me I'd sleep topless and stop wearing a vest to bed. I remember my elder sisters had a good laugh at that.

John S - Maltamom is a 'well-known' individual, who's been around for some time. I think 'they' used to troll Mumsnet and I've come across 'them' elsewhere.

Just a little fed up with ‘Mr Dando’s’ endless interventions/posts on here and the other similar threads. He obviously has a ‘thing’ about kids changing for PE and a quick look through earlier contributions shows a similar set of posts from ‘Maltamon’. Is he the same individual I wonder?

http://www.historyworld.co.uk/photo.php?offset=2150&sort=0&l1=Childhood&l2=Schools&id=1607

My first school was very easy going kit-wise. As long as you had white shorts, a white top and clean plimsolls it didn't matter where they came from. Until we went topless, most of us just wore our ordinary underwear vests, and Mum a free-lance dressmaker, even made me a pair of shorts on one occasion. My second school was more demanding. We had to have a round-neck short-sleeve top in white and black rugby shorts, both from a specified supplier, and topless was never an option,

Yes my P E kit was often passed down from my older brother. When eventually I had new there was no particular school shop stockist. Plain football shorts (also worn for P E)and of course there were very few brand labels, and we had to have plain shorts.

Umbro produced lovely plain white nylon shorts in vast quantities. I missed them by a few years but they were ideal in my view. With just ankle socks and trainers if necessary there would be no excuses for putting together an expensive kit.

In the early 1960s my PE kit, including ankle socks and plimsolls, had to be plain white, with no stripes or coloured hems, etc. of any kind.

Even if they had been available, the school would not have allowed fashion labels or logos. This meant we avoided this form of peer pressure.

Additionally, my PE kit could be bought from any sports wear or school uniform stockist, without the price being inflated by designer styles.

I have never had the experience of swimming naked. Obviously from what a lot of people have recorded it is enjoyable, but now a days in modern Britain it is very unlikely for me. that now I never will.
AS I have stated before the general opinion is that males should not wear a brief style swimming costume. Long shorts and board shorts seem to be the norm.

@ Tom B. How I agree with you on all points you have made, especially on PE kit, a lot is peer pressure into having the best kit, trainers, shorts, fancy tee shirts and track suits all costing a small fortune, I can attest to this as my grandson when he was at school had a small fortune spent on him, for the various sports that the school ran, and actually he wasn't really a bit interested in most of the sports, just keeping fit, he did them of course because he had to, he was more of an academic and studied hard, to which that has now rewarded him with a good job.

Like many he does use a gym now and wishes that facilities like that were available to him when at school instead of the "team" games that were mandatory.

As regards showering he told me that it wasn't mandatory at his schools but he did shower as he prided himself in his appearance and wasn't afraid of being seen naked in the changing rooms or showers.

The only naked swimming I did was in the local river and a couple of secluded lakes in my boyhood and like you said I do envy those who had to do it at school.

I have read the last few pages of comment here with interest and it has made me reflect on my experience of various aspects of PE in schools between 1990 and 2002, much later than many here. Obviously I never had to endure corporal punishment and am very grateful for the fact. That said, I don’t feel other changes represent progress.

The uniform

I attended a state primary school and honestly, I don’t remember much about PE. I don’t remember what the PE kit consisted of other than “pumps” and the fact that those who forgot their kit had to do it in vest and pants.

I moved to a small independent mid way through term at the age of 7. The school uniform was grey shorts - all year round, a shirt and blazer. For PE we wore white shorts and a T shirt, bare footed but there were no restrictions on underwear. For football, white shorts were exchanged for navy blue.

At my senior school the uniform shorts were exchanged for trousers, socks and trainers added to PE kit and a reversible rugby shirt worn for football and rugby.

PE lesson content

At primary school I really remember nothing of PE. I can’t say I ‘got involved’ at all.

After that, PE was mixed with a single year group, while boys and girls separated for ‘games’ but joined other year groups.

At the junior school equipment was very limited and PE consisted of gymnastics moves on the mats or using the box as in the photograph. We did not have ropes or wall bars. Games lessons were football in the autumn and spring terms, cricket in the summer.

From the age of 11 again, the gymnasium was pretty limited and while we did have ropes and some wall bars, rarely used them. Basketball, hockey and rounders were introduced at PE and occasionally we did cross country runs. Games lessons were rugby in the autumn term, football in the spring and cricket in the summer.

My view on this is that the curriculum is flawed. Having found strength and conditioning training and the importance of flexibility some two decades later I firmly believe schools should focus on bodyweight training particularly for younger boys and introduce weights as they get older focussing more on that kind of physical education and less on ‘games’ - football, rugby and cricket are specialised areas for those with an interest, skill or just a desire to play.

I saw a documentary recently on the La Sierra Physical Educational programme and it certainly looks to tick all boxes in terms of getting all included and active.

Changing and shower facilities

My Junior school didn’t have changing facilities. for PE we would change in the corridor outside the hall while for games lessons our classrooms were used. There were no showers.

When I moved to the senior school I was quite shocked. The 11 year old me first, inadvertently walked into the older boys changing rooms which contained a changing area at either end of an open shower with 12 shower heads. I then found the younger boys changing room with 3 changing areas and an open shower room with 6 shower heads.

The majority of my classmates had come from the junior section of the same school so knew each other and had been showering together for 4 years. At 11 and somewhat shy I found it embarrassing after the first games (rugby) session to strip off and shower - ironically because my development had come earlier - a fact I should have revelled in.

That single experience put me off communal showering and I avoided it over the next few years. It was never mandatory and though some boys showered after every session the majority didn’t. The showers were only full after an inter-school rugby or football match.

I was however always jealous of the ease at which some boys would strip down and shower. Now, after a gym session I am perfectly at ease with my own nudity in the changing room.

Modern day policies against the old

As I say I wish I had not let nudity with my classmates bother me. Had I started showering with my class at the age of 7 rather than 11 I don’t think it would have become a problem and so it is my belief that mandatory communal showering should come back.

When I think back to my day and PE uniform at the schools I attended it was far more minimal and so affordable. Parents now have to shell out for branded tracksuits and such, for me it was just a few pairs of shorts and a t-shirt/rugby shirt.

Finally, for those of you who were able to enjoy naked swimming, on balance I think you were really pretty lucky!

Michael, I tend to agree with you. baasic gymnastics, foreard rolls, star-jumps etc. were OK, and I would happily go up the wall-bars of even a rope, but I never mastered hand-stands, especially on a horse or box, and forward/backward circles on a beam, or even walking along a beam at altitude, scared me witless. Somehow, I survived, as i expect most of us did!

As a cautious, forward-thinking boy I could never see the point of putting myself at risk of breaking my neck, by performing gymnastics for which I had little enthusiasm.

But, like the boys in the picture, I was regularly forced to do handstands on top of a vaulting box, climb ropes to the lofty ceiling and perform many other gymnastic routines which frankly terrified me.

My PE master was ex-forces bully, who regarded any hesitation to comply with his demands almost as an affront to his authority, and punished accordingly.

My fear of him outweighed my fear of breaking my neck, so I got into the habit of doing as I was told as quickly as I could, whilst still nervous of the potential hazards.

But years of this amounted to a scarring experience which has defined my attitude to exercise/sport ever since.

It starts with the feminisation of schools. No stripping to the waist for PE even indoors. This was a ritual the majority of boys would experience. Boys do not need a top to exercise in and I'm sure a lot of today's youngsters would enjoy stripping down and showing their masculinity and physique.

It is clearly the "British Reserve" that we are so obsessed in covering up so much. It would be nice to have the freedom to be "more free" Sometimes i can do this when in my garden, but it is not very secluded and I always have a pair of shorts with me to put on very quickly if necessary.
Even our Gym does not have segregated times when users could perhaps indulge in a bit of freedom.

@Josh H @Bernard. Agree i have travelled a lot across Europe in the last 20 years or so and can readily confirm speedo style / tight short trunks are de rigeur in french pools. I've just returned ( early March pre lockdown) from 3 weeks in Germany and Holland.
Germany all the wonderful spas are swimwear for the pool and then naked for the spa.
In dutch spas 100% naked throughout. Young and old welcome no issues for anyone.

In hotel leisure areas often it is clothing optional. I was in hotel sauna in Arhnem naked. Older couple there too she costume,he naked. In walks Dad and two daughters aged approx 12 and 10 with costumes. Not an issue everyone just nods hello and carries on.

In Denmark all beaches are clothing optional. It is only in the UK we are obsessed with the belief that nudity isbad, as the dutch website listing all the spas says: nudity iis natural and normal.

My childhood of nude swimming both at school and on holidays led me to really enjoy clothes free swimming without hang ups.