Burnley Grammar School

Some excellent points Petronius, and - might I add - exceedingly well written for this day and age! ;)

I attended residential special school in England and housematrons would routinely be in the boarding house washrooms where we had one one bad and two open showers. They were usually there to assist children who had physical disabilities who were using the bath but, like the teaching staff who did 24-hour house duties, they might pop in to check on us (for behaviour).

There were 50 boys in each house, using one of the two bathrooms (one on each of two floors). The younger boys were upstairs; the older ones downstairs. Despite our ranges ranging from 3 - 19, there was no difference in how staff approached their presence in these areas. We were also used to them being around when we changed for swimming.

I think that, once you've been seen naked, there's simply nothing left to hide and we all accepted the situation. However, I would say that, if there was any resentment at all, it was aimed more at those teaching staff on duty who came in because, really, unless there was an indication of trouble in the bathrooms, their presence was more 'out of place' than that of the housematrons.

We mostly slept in pyjamas but, once your voice had broken, it's was pretty unmanly if you wore a top in the boarding house after changing (the time could be anything after 9.00pm). Looking back, I think was a mixture of unspoken peer pressure, normal male bravado wanting to show off, and simply that we didn't see the point of the tops.

Our swimming was never naked and, given that this was the 1980s, it's interesting that some schools in England did still have naked swimming. I've read the earlier observations that naked swimming in schools may have been because material from old-fashioned trunks would clog the vents, but I don't agree. This may have been used as a later justification but, on a history web page ike this, we should remember that naked swimming did not suddently start. It's less astonishing if we remember that nudity was much more usual in the times leading up to schools with pools, including males being naked in front of females in public places. Naked swimming in schools was not the start of something new; it was the dying stages of broader public nudity.

I also think that those who effect astonishment at the past could usefully remember that not every Western society is quite as 'private' about bodies as they might like to imagine. Despite increasing changes to design, in England those who designed the vast majority of public showers and toilets for men evidently assumed that men would be full-body naked in front of each other, or have no worries about letting others see their penis when urinating.

It's also worth remembering that is acceptable can change from place to place, as well as over time. At festivals (that I have never attended), social media shows us that public urination at communal urinals can be privacy-free, visible to absolutely everyone walking by. I remember reading an article once where a lady reported that women used men's toilets at such an event. She reported that they could clearly see men's penises sideways on as they entered, but people accepted accepted the situation; they were all just there because they needed to relieve themselves. In another situation, just entering could get you in trouble.

Let me leave you with a thought. I support schools with safeguarding and we are clear that adults must not use pupils' toilets. But take those same adults, and those same children, and put them in a shopping centre's toilets on a Saturday afternoon and no one would bat an eyelid. Whether we perceive that we are nude (to one degree or another) and whether that matters, has as much to do with 'situation' as it does to actually how nude, and exposed, we are.

Danny,

There are certainly pools in Germany where there are different days for men and women but that's nothing new, it's because swimming is naked at those pools. It has always been the case and nothing has changed. Believe me, it would make the news here in Germany if something like that was to be introduced.

Equally in Germany nudity in a mixed sauna is quite normal and always has been. There is nothing to do with any muslims or other religion about it.

A pool in Helsinki was mentioned a couple of weeks back which has segregated days again because swimming naked is normal and it has been ever thus at a pool which is almost a hundred years old so again nothing to do with muslims.

Perhaps you could cite your source?

One can't take Mr.Dando seriously.

Boys must be made to wear tops for swimming, tracksuits for indoor PE and other nonsense which I find extreme and hilarious.
Why should Muslims dictate our customs in our own countries?

I wouldn't be surprised though if silly leftists give in to them to accomodate them.
I read that in some German and Scandinavian towns public pools have imposed separate days for men and for women to swim separately so that they do not not mix because of Muslim pressure.

Mr Dando, In your comment on 20th February you refer to modesty and the feelings of muslims. Is your campaign against school showers and boys swimming topless principally motivated by cultural/religious considerations?

Fiona we have a new headmaster and PE teacher who are introducing a gender nuetral PE kit for September 2020, and the parent Governor's have assured me that no child will be forced to do PE in just their underwear again. A spare kit policy has been introduced which means the school can make this attire available if a child does not have the appropriate.

I have turned my concern to the plight of secondary school pupils and the desire to end compulsory showers which affected me when I was a teenager. One such offending school is https://www.greenparkschool.co.uk/school-uniform.

PE Kit
Pupils also need a PE kit which consists of



Plain red T-shirt

Black shorts

PE pumps/trainers

Swimming
For swimming sessions pupils require



Trunks/costume

A towel

For reasons of hygiene and health and safety, families of those pupils with incontinence needs can order from school ‘freestyle’ swimming pants for use under costumes or order these directly online from Kiddicare.



For both PE and swimming programmes pupils need to provide a toiletry bag containing soap/shower gel and shampoo for use in showering programmes that follow physical activities (when appropriate).

Parent Governors, PE Teachers and the headmaster will be petitioned until this practice is stopped and like Corporal punishment, eventually abolished throughout the UK.

Mr Dando

A while back, you told us of your daughter's experience after a rather wet PE class outside:

"... the teacher decided it was raining too hard to continue and moved the class to the gym for the rest of the lesson. There, she said that all the pupils had to take off their wet kit and do the lesson (gymnastics) in their vest and knickers and bare feet. She did let them go and get their vests, but my daughter, along with many others, doesn't wear a vest to school. So she had to do the lesson in just her pants. . . . . . I was appalled when my daughter told me, and am seriously considering approaching the school over this."

Did you raise this with the school, and what was the outcome?

With the end of half term pending it is important we keep up the pressure to end compulsory showers, so no-one has to put up with invasion of privacy I encountered between September 1985 to April 1987.

Here is another offending institution. https://www.st-hughs.n-lincs.sch.uk/page/?title=School+Uniform&pid=45

Indoor PE Kit
White T-shirt
White shorts
White socks
Black jogging bottoms - if needed
Trainers with light coloured soles
Outdoor PE Kit
Black shorts
Black jogging bottoms
T-shirt
Black sweat shirt / zip tracksuit top
Trainers
Towel and wash bag with own shower gel - to be provided for all PE lessons

Please ensure that all of your child's belongings are clearly named so that we can find and return any lost property.

Forced showers must be ended now we have entered the 21st century for child protection.

I think it is a travesty there are still UK schools that mandate showers when others make the shower optional on the grounds that pupils can shower at home. These institutions that make showers compulsory take no account of the right to modesty for pupils and the feelings of muslims who do not want communal same-sex nudity forced upon them. Here is such a school https://www.sph.academy/parents/information-parents/school-uniform

P.E. KIT – The Essentials
Black or white approved Polo shirt with school crest.
Plain black PE shorts.
Trainers or plimsolls.
Black socks.
Optional approved sweatshirt with school crest.

P.E. Kit – Additional
A plain black track-suit where P.E. staff say it is appropriate for winter – no logos or designer outfits.
Ties, jumper with school crest and all items of P.E. kit can be purchased from school.

A current price list is included.
Physical Education is a National Curriculum subject and all students are required to participate in the course

All students are required to shower unless there is a confirmed medical reason for not doing so.

*If this school wants a confirmed medical reason how about severe psychological trauma brought about by bullying pupils and wicked PE teachers. These schools modernise with the 21st century.

Fiona

To answer your question.

My father worked abroad, my mother had her own life, so by 14/15/16 I was pretty independant - wearing or not wearing pj's didn't concern them much (if at all).

(This sounds terrible, but it was generally the way many fairly rich parents treated their offspring in the 1960's)

Listening to the historic stories of child abuse perpetrated by schools and parents on this column is heart breaking. There are still schools that force kids into showers and make boys swim topless which is gender discrimination and plain wrong. Here is another institution that mandates compulsory ablutions

http://www.madras.fife.sch.uk/pupil_parents/documents/uniform.pdf

For All Indoor/Outdoor Activities
A plain white or navy T-shirt. Plain navy shorts or tracksuit bottoms and a plain navy
jumper/hoody should be worn for Physical Education.
No team strips or training wear (football, rugby or otherwise) may be worn to Physical
Education. Similarly girls are asked not to wear vest tops.
Madras College sell a range of high quality items of clothing with the school crest which are
very popular with pupils and staff. However, there is no requirement for these to be purchased.
Swimming
Trunks/costume, towel, goggles.
SCHOOL UNIFORM
Madras College Handbook 2016/2017 25
Time is allocated to allow pupils to shower at the end of every lesson, therefore a towel should
be brought to all PE lessons.
School Teams
• Pupils may be required to provide their own clothing, especially short and socks.
• Football teams wear navy top, white shorts and navy socks.
• Rugby teams wear navy shirts, white shorts and navy socks.
• Hockey teams wear white polo shirts, sky blue hooded tops, navy skirts and white socks.

Together we should campaign for better child protection and gender equality in all UK institutions!

@john. I sort of knew my father would expect me to sleep naked as he’d made my older brothers do so when they got to that age too. I suppose it was a mix of emotion - from wanting to be seen as a grown up vs being cosy in my old Jim jams!

@william. In the mornings after sleeping at school we also had the morning run routine wearing just skimpy black shorts (no pants) and plimsolls Sometimes that was followed by a few lengths of the school pool (naked, of course) then (thankfully warm) showers.

Alan, were your parents OK with the phenomenon of the gradually disappearin PJS?

Alan, we stripped to the waist for an early morning run except on a Sunday. PE lessons were held outdoors as much as possible again with all lads stripped to the waist. Happy days!

At my boarding school, everyone wore pj's at 9/10/11, then it gradually stopped as we got older.

First the pj top disappeared, then one or two boys slept in briefs. Slowly as we got older, it became the norm to sleep naked.

Everyday we had to do an early morning run, summer and winter.

At 0630 we were woken up by prefects, shorts/plimsolls on, always stripped to the waist. Showers on return.

William
06:00 We got first bell .. down to bathroom and stuff ... nudity not an issue that worried any of us as l remember
07:00-08: 00 breakfast
09:00 first lesson

Julian, I was a day boy but my experience was like yours: we quickly got used to nude showers because we had to and soon thought nothing of them. Some boys were more confident than others.
Looking back, I'm glad I don't suffer from the bodily shyness that afflicts some Brits, especially the young. The attitude of the northern Europeans and Russians to nudity is much healthier than ours. I think I was lucky to be at a boys' school in the '60s.

Hi Mads, if l have the name right! You can get running shorts without inline - my boys (grandsons to be precise) like Gore - they're expensive though but damned good

William - the morning routine was out of bed and straight into the (cold) showers. There was no time to think of putting anything on. There were showers off each dormitory along with wash basins and toilets shared with the dormitory next door so twenty four lads needing to get through the morning routine. There were no partitions, even on the toilets so no room to be shy or bothered about being naked.

Rising bell at 7:30 am, get up, wash/shower, dress.
Breakfast at 8.00 am.
Make beds, tidy dormitory rooms etc.
Classes start 09:00 am.

William
We went to the bathroom usually with undies on although some boys just took their towels with them. To be honest no one ever gave it much thought. What was your experience?

Archie, Graham, Julian et al
So you slept in the nude at school. When you got up first thing in the morning did you put something on or not bother? What was your routine?

While we cannot change the past injustices of the 1970's and 1980's we should ensure that kids today are not exposed to the same abuses we were. This school still highlights the barbaric practice of forcing minors to PE in their underwear: http://thamesviewinfants.org/families/general-information/school-uniform/

Please inform school if your child has a verucca. He/she will need to wear plimsolls for all PE lessons, until the verucca has gone.

Children who forget their PE kit will be expected to do PE in pants and vest.

PE is part of the school curriculum and is important for your child’s healthy development; he/she will be expected to participate in all lessons.

During Year 2 swimming lessons, boys should wear trunks or shorts (which don’t go below the knee) and girls should wear one-piece swim suits (not bikinis).

Please stop bare foot pe and doing gymnastics in vest and pants!

Interesting about Dr. Kellogs theory. I will see my cornflakes in a whole new light!

If you want shorts without a liner just buy rugby shorts! They are still made for real men ;-)

James E, to answer your question - I don't like built-in liners in shorts. Now it is hard to find athletic shorts without a liner. When l was at school shorts didn't have lining. You just simply wore a jock. Life was so simple then.

Archie,
How did you feel when you were twelve and your Dad insisted that you start sleeping naked?.

David H,I agree it was difficult forgetting about it once I had been circumcised and I didn't find it at all agreeable,but it it was something we had to get accustomed to.At school some boys found it intriguing as they had never seen a boy circumcised before.

Fiona, my input to your survey! I went to what was essentially an independent day school, but there was a boarding house for folk who lived further away (only about 10-15% of pupils were full time boarders). Like many boys I did board for short periods, when exams were coming up or there was some other more social reason to do so - even just to get away from nagging parents for a few days! - so feel I can legitimately complete your survey.

1 - What was your usual sleepwear at home before you went away to boarding school? Pyjamas until around 12, then naked at my father's insistence.
2 - Was sleepwear specified for boarders, and if so, what? "Appropriate nightwear"
3 - What sleepwear was actually worn in your dormitory room? In my experience, all boys slept in the buff.
4 - Was this less than, the same as, or more than you were accustomed to wear at home? Same
5 - If the general sleepwear level in your dormitory room was less than that specified, what was the reason? They never defined "appropriate nightwear" and there was a sort of expectation that we'd sleep in the buff - I think it was seen as being more manly and grown up.
6 - If the general sleepwear level in your dormitory room differed from what you were accustomed to at home, was that a problem for you? I was expected to sleep nude at home too, so no.
7 - If you modified your sleepwear to conform with your dormitory mates, did you revert to your previous practice when you went home for holidays? If not, did your parents make any comments? Not applicable.
8 - Any other comments? After evening prep we had free time in the dorm common room and were expected to strip down to our briefs and socks before evening showers and bed.

Well say forgotten - dont forget it just get used to it and accept it