Burnley Grammar School

Comment by: Paul G on 9th April 2024 at 15:44


I played music, Paul. I didn't wear lipstick or pink dresses. Plain ordinary music, no drag, and I wasn't bullied for that, because most people didn't know about it.

Typical of the right-on mob to endorse any kind of kinky practice or perversion. However, you seem to imply that you agree with me that Mr. I is an exhibitionist, and in all probability an effeminate homosexual, possibly in denial.

We must be a laughing stock in countries overseas. Nobody need flaunt their peccadilloes.

Comment by: Devon Lad on 8th April 2024 at 21:14
<It's available on You Tube along with others from that series but you need to sign in and be age verified to watch it, somewhat strange considering it was meant for kids to view with their teachers in the first place.
ITV SCHOOLS - GOOD HEALTH: Fit and Healthy (TX 24/01/83)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRRw-k7cGJs >




Clearly a middle school taking showers there isn't it. There is something so typical of our times now that such a film that was designed for children to watch now has to be given some kind of age restriction. It doesn't really make a lot of sense does it, that it can be inappropriate for anyone really if it was once okay for children. A great example of how modern times have made totally innocent things seem like a problem or even sinister in some way when they are not.



Comment by: Alan on 9th April 2024
<If you want an up-to-date example, I offer you the sad spectacle of Eddie Izzard, former comedian of sorts, and actor of sorts, who sensing his 15 minutes of theatrical fame are over, has attempted to become a politician and has two failed attempts - at Sheffield and Brighton - under HIS belt, despite donning clown make-up, pink dresses and even false breasts, God help us, despite calling himself "Suzy", and mincing into ladies public lavatories (much to the annoyance of real women), he failed to convince even the normally open-minded of Brighton.>



This Izzard stuff is not the place for such intolerant off topic comment and has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of this forum or history in any way at all and I'm not sure why you are leaving it here. You've denied homophobia in the past but it's clear you show a strong dislike for anyone different, which is rather ironic having read through your own tales of woe at being a skinny kid who liked music and stood out different at school among the others and got picked on for it.

Comment by: Chris G on 8th April 2024 at 22:12

"I'm going to put my Pedant's hat on again and point out that there is a world of difference between Transvestite and Trans-gender."

Well, Chris, you can take it off again. I think everyone knew what I meant when I used the term - "transgender" is the new term for men who dress up as Peter Butterworth (Sgt Slowbottom) did in Hokum Wood in Carry On Screaming - and make it clear they are men "dressing up" and it seems some women are going the other way, and trying to look like Charlie Chaplin.

If you want an up-to-date example, I offer you the sad spectacle of Eddie Izzard, former comedian of sorts, and actor of sorts, who sensing his 15 minutes of theatrical fame are over, has attempted to become a politician and has two failed attempts - at Sheffield and Brighton - under HIS belt, despite donning clown make-up, pink dresses and even false breasts, God help us, despite calling himself "Suzy", and mincing into ladies public lavatories (much to the annoyance of real women), he failed to convince even the normally open-minded of Brighton.

There should be no place for them in the school locker room, whatever trans suffix you give them.

That's what I was thinking Chris, they are not the same thing at all. I didn't feel confident enough to say so, pleased someone has. A transvestite is a man who likes dressing up as a woman but has no desire to actually be a woman or go about like one in normal day to day life, whereas a trans person does desire to dress and go about as such in everyday life. I'm sure that's how it is, saying that as an open minded fair playing straight gentleman with no desire to wear anything other than clothing suitable for my own male gender.

I'm going to put my Pedant's hat on again and point out that there is a world of difference between Transvestite and Trans-gender.

Comment by: A Yorkshiredad on 8th April 2024
'On the point of school showers, I do not know of any primary school that requires them. Pre-pubescent boys simply do not sweat that much, I have never seen a boy "soaked in sweat" in one of my PE classes. To require showers in primary schools would simply be odd.'



When I was last on here placing a few comments a couple of years ago there was a discussion about a schools TV programme called Good Health that was shown about 40 or so years ago which featured PE and fitness related issues aimed at primary school ages and in it there was a featured a middle school, it was in Redditch, and showed that middle school doing not just shirtless PE but clearly taking communal showers for the lot of them because they stuck a camera in the showers and filmed them all without censorship of any kind.

It's available on You Tube along with others from that series but you need to sign in and be age verified to watch it, somewhat strange considering it was meant for kids to view with their teachers in the first place.

ITV SCHOOLS - GOOD HEALTH: Fit and Healthy (TX 24/01/83)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRRw-k7cGJs

Our three went to a primary school that took showers in the 1970s. Based on what you have said here Yorkshire Dad I rooted around to find some old paperwork I've kept from those days alongside things like old school photo's etcetra, to refresh myself about our children back then, and us their parents and they were being asked to make sure they went in with a towel for shower and kit on the right day. I have a lot of old school letters and bits in a document case at home. How often they did this is only something I can know by asking one of them if they still remember. I know there was a collection of at least four men I knew of at their school at the time and the head was also a man.

A Yorkshiredad, the trouble with Alan is his inability to stop this excessive over generalising about sets people in society. The types of people he speaks of in this instance are a small MINORITY, nothing more than that. Although not a teacher myself it's perfectly obvious that the kinds of people Alan speaks of are no more representative of teaching as a whole than the BNP are of the views of middle England.

"There certainly seems to be a universal streak of voyeurism amongst PE teachers of both genders. "

Alan, too much. This is such an insult to myself and the whole teaching profession. You seem a very intelligent person, try to think more about what you are writing in future and less about repeatedly expressing your psychological trauma.

At my school I became the boys PE specialist because I was a rare male primary age teacher, not though special training or desire. Schools do seek to put men into boys changing rooms to minimise any embarrassment whenever possible, but female teachers so outnumber the male that I guess it does still sometimes happen. There has to be some supervision at that time but it is minimal. We are also an unusual school in that the boys do sometimes have single sex PE which is very unusual at their age. Mixed classes are the norm.(https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b32201ce5274a55cdf21b3f/Gender-separation-guidance.pdf)

On the point of school showers, I do not know of any primary school that requires them. Pre-pubescent boys simply do not sweat that much, I have never seen a boy "soaked in sweat" in one of my PE classes. To require showers in primary schools would simply be odd.

Comment by: Greg2 on 7th April 2024 at 20:05


"Comment by: Ellis on 6th April 2024 at 01:29, and also Neil and Richard below.
What, are you saying Ellis, that Mrs Harrison didn’t just keep a lookout out the corner of one eye, like Janet said she did? Who’d have thought. You can be sure Mrs Harrison would have told the story that she had to check on the boys during showering at every opportunity as well. It’s strange they always seem do that. An opposite gender empowerment thing I suppose. The girls would certainly have known, and I expect probably teased you a little about it at times. I didn’t really understand why you had to avoid showing any embarrassment, or resentment about it though. That must have made things worse...."

There certainly seems to be a universal streak of voyeurism amongst PE teachers of both genders. It was always noticeable - even the most naive boys noticed it in our school - that our Mr. Roberts took very little interest, or notice of, our ablutions when we 11 or 12, but once you got to 13, he felt he had to watch all the time, and it got more intense the older you got. He really did give himself away.

As regards transvestites, I honestly think it is appalling that people of either gender who self-identify themselves to the opposite gender should be allowed anywhere near a school locker or shower room. The fact that there are school head teachers and governors who will countenance this sort of thing, shows just how far standards have slipped in this country. Had I been Amanda, who told us of this last week in connection with her 16 year old son being forced to endure classes with such a teacher, I would have withdrawn him from the class, and told the head teacher why - offend or please. The fact that people are prepared to turn a blind eye to depravity means that these egregious practices will get even more blatant and "acceptable" as time goes on.

Transvestism at one time was very rare but in the past few years it seems to have become almost a fad - especially in Britain - let's hope it dies away as quickly as CB radio and the ice bucket challenge did. It is an aberration of the most repulsive sort.

Interesting story Greg, and Ellis there as well. Double standards stink!

Circa 1977-78 our top two years primary school classes of 11 and 12 year olds went down the local open air lido swimming pool for lessons throughout the summer term in both those years, the pool was large and there were a lot of us. At the pool there were only enough cubicles to change for just about half of us if two went into a cubicle each, and they were only big enough for two people max anyway. So the girls got given all the cubicles for themselves down the pool to share in pairs with each other while all the boys had to make do with the open plan area to change. There was no privacy at all for the boys. We were taken swimming by two ladies, one hung around the girls cubicles, I remember her banging on doors hurrying them up to come out. The other hung around in the middle of the open plan area watching all the boys getting in and out of our swimming trunks. Some boys did the towel wrap thing to remove trunks, others did not. There was more than enough 'on display'. I didn't go in for the towel dance like some did, and once I was taken by surprise just as I'd dropped my pants to put my swim trunks on, I received a gentle tap on the shoulder to be told to remove my wristwatch in full undress mode and was really embarrassed by it. I never wore my watch in the pool anyway and was about to take it off, I didn't need telling by anyone about that. An old windup Timex it certainly wasn't waterproof so I'd have wrecked it if I had tried.

There was also a quick shower spray and foot bath we had to walk through in the communal open area for a few seconds before entering the swimming pool water properly, we usually did this in our swimming trunks but one week we had a male teacher come with the regular lady and he made us walk through the shower spray and footbath with nothing on before getting our swim trunks on and all the while the other lady was nearby watching the lot of it pretending she was seeing nothing when she was seeing everything. The actual girls in class did this separate from the boys and in their full swim costumes.

Quite frankly of course you didn't say anything, as a boy you soon learn even at a young age, well you did back then, that's how you are treated, and anyway the last thing anyone wanted was to be thought of as a cissy about being unhappy or bothered about being seen without their stuff on in front of people. I'm quite sure the ribbing from other classmates that might have taken place if anyone had been brave enough/stupid enough to start questioning it could have been unkind in itself and it's doubtful if a teacher at the time would have been accommodating to any one, especially boys who expressed unease.

Our parents all had to pay for the opportunity too. It wasn't a free swim. I remember the following summer when we began going along to the pool again there were a small group of about half a dozen who didn't pay and were left behind and I knew one of them had not paid on purpose because he didn't want to do that again and made out his parents could afford to send him swimming which I knew was completely untrue.

Comment by: Ellis on 6th April 2024 at 01:29

I was admittedly something of an overly confident show off at school sometimes and worried about very little, certainly didn't care about who might see me in what state of undress or whatever like that associated with PE, whether a girl might see me with no shirt on for example, and I know I'd have treated the ladies PE teacher coming in on the boys as a good laugh actually and probably tried to deliberately embarrass her! I would not have been at all bothered by such a thing at all, I know some people might find that hard to believe. I remember chatting to someone once and saying how great it would be if we could share with the girls, and I meant it! Far from it being an unhealthy thing to say I actually think it's quite a healthy way of thinking to be largely unconcerned about such things and be completely accepting about who you are and the skin you are in. I wish others were.

On the twin brother thing, I seem to remember that twins were always kept separate at my schools, I knew a couple of sets of twins myself over the years at school. One pair of identical twin brothers used to always be joined at the hip staying close by each other every break time before having to go their to their separate classes. They were often given a hard time for simply being so close with one another and freezing others out.

The question I want to know Stuart is what were your differences then as identical twins, and were you identical in all respects, you know, down there, was that the cause of the changing room issue. Even identical twins can't be that identical can they when seen in the raw. When I was at middle school the two pairs I knew were always sent in with the same clothes on each even though we had no school uniform to speak of at that school age. I'm sure that was more of a thing in the past rather than nowadays. A teachers nightmare, I often couldn't tell one from the other myself.

Comment by: Ellis on 6th April 2024 at 01:29, and also Neil and Richard below.
What, are you saying Ellis, that Mrs Harrison didn’t just keep a lookout out the corner of one eye, like Janet said she did? Who’d have thought. You can be sure Mrs Harrison would have told the story that she had to check on the boys during showering at every opportunity as well. It’s strange they always seem do that. An opposite gender empowerment thing I suppose. The girls would certainly have known, and I expect probably teased you a little about it at times. I didn’t really understand why you had to avoid showing any embarrassment, or resentment about it though. That must have made things worse.

I never had to put up with a woman watching us showering, thankfully. Nor did I even have to do gym without a shirt. In that regard perhaps I was lucky. But, I certainly experienced double standards fully head on during late childhood, and I’ll give a routine example of that during 3 months on a children's ward when nearly 12. My memories take me right back to my discomfort of that time. It was a completely female environment on a children's ward back then, rather like a junior or middle school always is. I never saw a male nurse, only doctors. I was dealt with at the whim of the female nurses on duty; some of whom were lovely, others awful. I soon leant to dread the weekly bed sheet changing on the mixed gender ward, as it was always a performance with my bed, and taking much longer due to having my leg in traction with my fractured femur, and also because I was a boy.

There was always a turnaround of children, and at this particular time the end bit of the ward where my bed was had several girls around it. Due to being in traction with a Thomas splint on one leg, it meant I was attached to the bed and therefore couldn’t wear pyjama bottoms over it, just a jacket. A young girl had recently arrived, and was placed just opposite my bed. She would come across to my bed most afternoons to chat, and I can still see her light blue dressing gown with round collar with lacy trim. She asked my age, saying she was 11 too. I started dreading the sheet changing coming up as I really didn’t want this girl to see me; she was always staring across at me anyway. When the day came I asked nurses if I could have a screen, which was just smirked at, as these were always in use around girls beds, giving the impression it didn’t matter for me. In comparison, it was like a secret society meeting around any girls' beds when this happened with the female nurses in charge, but for boys, nobody cared. They only protected their own it seems, and to be truthful it was almost as though they deliberately put boys in their charge on display. So, there I was, while this took place, and that girl stared across at me all the way through it as I watched her, and did she stare. I hated it and felt humiliated. Later that afternoon, the girl came across to talk to me again. All I remember thinking is, ‘You’ve seen me with nothing on,’ and I’m sure she could see I wasn’t interested and she walked away.

That’s just how it was. I was always a bit bodily shy anyway, it was just my nature. It’s no use saying it’s stupid and boys shouldn’t care about such things. We're all who we are and I wasn't raise in any sort of institution. I think, especially at that late childhood age, just when you like to pretend you’re starting to grow up, even though you’re wondering when this might start to happen, you prefer this to be respected. It was bad enough with those young nurses all over me, I certainly didn’t want same age girls having a ring side seat. Yes, I know it was a hundred years ago, and yes of course I’m not totally embittered and compulsive and obsessive about it. I just still have empathy for that kid I used to be back then, and remembered how he felt.

I don’t think they’d treat kids in this way today, at least I hope not…but there again, hasn’t a young she/he person just been invited to become a boys’ gym teacher somewhere?

We did bare chested PE at my own comprehensive school all the while in my time, '76 to '81. I think it must have definitely been compulsory. We never got any other options other than that. I simply don't even remember any kind of official school gym top of any kind, whether a tee-shirt or a vest for that matter or even bringing such to school with me on gym days, besides a towel and shorts. I just remember popping off to gym never wearing anything on top being the thing everyone did. I tended to find I slipped easily into this way of doing things after the initial self conscious awkwardness lessened within a few weeks but it definitely took getting used to. No idea why they effectively banned all shirts in the school gym at ours.

What I do remember is the barking at us to get into the showers! No choice in that for sure and it's a big memory for me because quite often my twin brother who was in another class shared PE with our class and we were identical twins hard to tell apart at that age but it got really tedious, we found ourselves sharing the PE showers with each other and that wasn't great with your brother when clowns were trying to work out how to tell us apart while we had nothing on. Neither of us liked doing PE together and really disliked changing and showering together and the crap we had to put up with from others in our respective classes about it.

When we first started PE at school our first PE teacher assembled us in the gym and told us he wanted to give everyone a kiss. That was weird until he went on to say it was an acronym that stood for Keep In Shape System.

Stephen, I had no idea that was a thing! I doubt it was when I was at school. I can't see my mam and dad spending on that though, especially as I have brothers.

Tbh it just a sticky out belly button. I didn't mean to make it sound horrific or particularly bad. It just made me different. Turns out there aren't many about! Especially "spiral" ones.

Amazed to find someone else with one who isn't family lol.

Comment by: Toby on 7th April 2024 at 00:32


Reading about what you said Toby made me wonder if you could change that, I've never thought about it before, as I'm similar although not given it much thought ever. I found this and apparently what you are born with can be changed there. Who knew? Did you? Is it still something that makes you self conscious as an adult or was this just a school thing?

https://www.puritybridge.co.uk/procedure/clinic-based-aesthetic-surgery/belly-button-reshaping/#:~:text=After%20numbing%20the%20area%20with,belly%20button%20can%20be%20deepened.

Comment by: Toby on 7th April 2024 at 00:32

Toby, it is strange, reading some of the recent posts, all of which have been very reasonable, it is clear some of the writers have forgotten that they are now seeing things from the adult angle ("we are all the same" etc), but they forget just how judgmental boys are, and how, in later years, if they see somebody from their time at school they revert to boyhood. I have no doubt, were I unlucky enough to run into some of my old school "mates", I would still get the "do you have to put a clothes-hanger in your teeth to save going down the plughole?" 'joke' - even though I now bear no resemblance to the 11/13 year old me.

I guess the same is true for you.

Happiest days of your life,. eh?. I am glad that is not true.

Some time ago on the board I mentioned my embarrassment at school, not so much for shirtless PE in itself (shirts and skins, late 80s, occasional) but because it meant I had to reveal my sticky out belly button. Well this week I bumped into a couple of lads from school, and they both mentioned remembering my "outie ". I was flabbergasted. Clearly it was a defining feature more than I even feared after being pointed out in PE. I wish we'd been able to wear vests/t-shirts.

Comment by: Ellis on 6th April 2024 at 01:29
"I'm in the States, Janet with her UK boys class sounds about right for the time. When I was in grade school in the 80's, up to 12 years old or so, the female PE teacher (Mrs Harrison who must have been around 30-35) would walk quite shamelessly and brazenly into the boys locker room to hurry us along in the shower and would cop a direct eyeful of the lot of us with not a stitch on between any of us and just stand there looking on. The worst bit was you couldn't act up about it and openly show you were embarrassed about it, either in front of the teacher or your mates. Mrs Harrison obviously held to the view that modesty and bashful wasn't part of a normal boy's vocabulary and it's an obvious double standard applied to our gender only."





Yes I agree with you it's a bit of a liberty and smacks of a complete lack of empathy to a certain degree and pushing the boundaries a bit too far in your case, and yes such a clear double standard involved where you know full it couldn't work in reverse, male teacher to girls. Knowing what Americans are like for the compensation culture you could claim for lifelong trauma it caused and gain a multi million dollar payout down the line! Actually don't do that, it's not worth it.

I'm in the States, Janet with her UK boys class sounds about right for the time. When I was in grade school in the 80's, up to 12 years old or so, the female PE teacher (Mrs Harrison who must have been around 30-35) would walk quite shamelessly and brazenly into the boys locker room to hurry us along in the shower and would cop a direct eyeful of the lot of us with not a stitch on between any of us and just stand there looking on. The worst bit was you couldn't act up about it and openly show you were embarrassed about it, either in front of the teacher or your mates. Mrs Harrison obviously held to the view that modesty and bashful wasn't part of a normal boy's vocabulary and it's an obvious double standard applied to our gender only.

Another old grammar schoolboy here from the mid seventies and it was a school with a high status physical education ethos. Now that's all well and good when you are gifted or naturally great at physical sports and have aptitude, you can sail through but those who struggle end up finding their lives are nothing but a kick to the self esteem on the receiving end of never ending destructive remarks from PE teachers. I saw this with my own eyes happening to boys who did their best but it was never good enough.

One or two PE teachers where I went seemed a bit too handy with the pushing about and the overly physical part of the education if you know what I mean by that. I was in the gym once and laughed at something another kid had done and got a judo move from my PE teacher that took me off my feet and landed me flat on the floor without warning. We were not doing judo at the time. The same teacher once jumped in the showers and pulled me out for talking too much and told me to sit with my legs crossed against the wall and my hands on my head along with the other boy I was talking with. I was being too loud apparently. We sat naked on our bare backsides on the floor, legs crossed, hands on heads and in silence while the rest of class carried on around us and got dressed. I definitely went to a grammar where a couple of PE teachers liked to openly humiliate and everyone probably had their tale of a time when something happened to them as well. We all did.

If I'd been bad at physical education or been one of the terribly sensitive types it would have been far worse, luckily I could brush it off but others can't do that with some of these characters of the past and some of the worst ones taught in some of the best schools, not the state school dumps.

Boys at school either respond well to the kind of PE we did in the past or they don't and that divide seems to have been shown up on this forum very clearly doesn't it.

Greg2

"What is it about gym teachers, that they were usually such disciplinarians, and so traditionally sergeant major strict?"

In my case we actually had, in succession, two ex-army PE Sergeant instructors. On the whole, they were good guys. They didn't stand any messing around, but they always treated us with respect. The gym was isolated from the main school buildings, where the showers etc. were, so the PE instructor never bothered us while changing, showering etc.

Comment by: Mark R on 4th April 2024 at 19:24


I know everyone has heard more than enough about my views on school, but I will just say that the best thing that happened to my school was the day the men from Costain Ltd came to raise it to the ground. They achieved what the Luftwaffe didnr!

Comment by: Rupert on 3rd April 2024 at 02:18
Your post was interesting to read Rupert, and an accurate account of those times. Your years in school corresponded with mine and I could relate to much of what you said, even down to the pristine all white gym kit requirements. It really was as though we were all sent through a preliminary or preparatory version of national service once we stepped over that threshold into the gym changing room. Even the atmosphere in there was entirely different to any other school room. Certainly, none of it was what we expected when it was all new to us.

I wonder what this was and why? What is it about gym teachers, that they were usually such disciplinarians, and so traditionally sergeant major strict? Perhaps it’s something to do with their interests being focused on exercising our growing bodies, and what we could all attain and look like; rather than educating our expanding minds, and what we could all learn and fill them with? Perhaps there’s something deeply instinctive within human psyche that gym teachers tap into when in charge of demanding physical activity, which even permitted ordering us all to strip off and shower, compared to someone just teaching an academic subject, where everyone just sat in a classroom?

It’s true that certain types enjoyed and benefitted from being ordered about and directed into what to do. Some even needed it, others didn’t. Just reading the conflicting comments on here confirms this.

Who agrees with this video about their education at school?

We all know the song of course, but I saw the video for the first time just recently. Made me think it might resonate with the likes of people such as Alan and others that think in that way about school.

Another Brick In The Wall - Pink Floyd.

https://youtu.be/YR5ApYxkU-U?feature=shared

Comment by: TimH on 3rd April 2024 at 15:15
@Sean - I'm not Chris G but the ISPs I got from the start until, say five weeks ago were:
3.254
3.221
3.235 4
3.248 2
3.230
3.226 4
3.244 11
3.225 2
3.212 12
3.129 22
3.160 2
3.237 2
3.132 4
3.144

The second number was the number of times used, although not sequentially








What is the point of this comment above?

Orson yesterday on 3rd April.

I wouldn't pay taxes if they didn't make me either. Such is life and we all get told we have to do things we don't wish to do.

You are most welcome Matthew S.

I think there's a real problem in the country when those of us who did a decent and professional hard days work very many years ago in school are now looked back on as borderline criminal or placed under suspicion for doing some perfectly normal and innocent activities in how we ran our classes.

At primary school from 1976-79 I never had to write a letter home, make a phone call or ask someone else to on my behalf because of any unhappy problems regards any PE class or general teaching I did and there is not one parent evening I can ever remember where anybody elected to bring up unhappiness about the conduct of myself or general teaching, or anyone who mentioned the PE kit, the taking of showering or my involvement despite everything being perfectly open and transparent. I have no memory of any parent or guardian making any written approaches either suggesting any problems.

Stephen - look at:
Hesketh Fletcher Gym Tean
Dec 4th 2923
Comment by Ryan
Line 7 or thereabouts