Burnley Grammar School

RE Gvain's reply to Alf about visitors to swimming pool

I went to all boys private prep/senior school in Surrey which had its own indoor heated pool. We all swam nude until 13, after that regulation black speedo type trunks. We had saturday morning school which was common back then.

One school year, i think when I was 11 or 12, we had swimming as our last lesson of the saturday classes. Quite often the Head would be showing parents & offspring around, which meant that Mothers and sometimes daughters would come into the pool.
I specifically remember one occasion where I was standing on the side for some reason when a boy and girl came in with their parents who were talking with the Head. The kids wandered further in and stood by me, the girl aged about 13 pointed at me and said with a big smile to her younger brother that will be you next term swimming naked and then laughed. He blushed profusely.

I didnt really think anything wrong about adults coming in but then I hadnt hit puberty so did not have much to hide.

I think in days when mothers did not have automatic washing machines or indeed in some cases any washing machine at all it was quite normal that clothes were not changed every day and sometimes not for several days. I was only allowed two grey school shirts a week and three pairs of white underpants. I was no different to other lads in that regard.

In those circumstances I don't think it was unusual that for sport where we would sweat or if outside potentially get soaked that we were required to take off our underpants when getting changed in fact it was totally sensible.

Equally in those days all PE teachers (well the men at least) had done national service. The military paid no attention to any concept of privacy when I joined the Navy in the early 1970s so I don't suppose it was any better in the post war era. We slept in open dormitories, showered in communal showers, used toilets that had no partitions and so on and we certainly didn't wear underpants with our sports gear which given the hard navy canvas like gym shorts we had which used to feel like rough sandpaper and they never softened was something you were always aware of.

These days I still use the gym regularly and I'm glad when I see younger lads dancing behind their towels and waiting for the one private shower cubicle as opposed to the fifteen communal showers that I'm comfortable naked in front of other men and don't care that others see me in a place where being naked is actually quite normal. All these years later, I wouldn't think of wearing underpants with my gym gear.

This weekend why not check out the Hesketh Fletcher web site there is a gym photo similar date to above and comments by many of the contributers on this Burnley site. Go to Old Photos and it is positioned on page two.Similar topics are discussed ! F. C.

We never had any problems with athletic supporters, which were never mentioned at my school, or having to take off our underpants for PE.
We kept our underpants on under our PE shorts which served as supporters in themselves. I am surprised at how many schools required boys to take off their underpants for PE.
But then our PE lessons were usually light affairs with light exercises and which only lasted about an hour or so.
The only exception was that if a boy forgot his PE kit he was made to do it in his underpants, as someone else mentioned.

I had forgotten about the press ups...all that bumping up and down onto the cold wooden floor.

Sorry to hear of your P.E days at school and the fact that you remain quite bitter about them.I always thought of them as a welcome break from the text books and taking numerous notes!I had forgotten about the star jumps they were certainly physically exerting.It was the press ups that got me quite hard on. I started with puberty in the summer term in First form.As for the no underpants rule it was just one of the many you had to accept or face the consequences.It was a gentle irony that if you forgot your P.E. shorts for the lesson you had to do it in your underpants a humiliating sanction for any youngster as I experienced once.

My experience was pretty much like William's although we did gym into the sixth form. Like a number of others I preferred at first to wear a T-shirt but as I became more 'comfortable' with my body I was happy to just wear shorts. Like William we tended to turn the waistbands over, but in the 6th form I bought a pair of the short cotton football shorts then coming into fashion.

Cross-country kit was football shirt & shorts & plimsolls - no flash trainers in the early 60s. The course was a misture of footpath & country lane - I've measured it be a little under four miles in length.

Although I've no problems with boys doing gym 'topless' indoors or outdoors in summer I would have to raise my eyebrows if I saw boys shirtless in the cold weather we've just experienced.

It was the same for all of us,Bob. Like William we never saw athletic supports and I even did gym in the 6th form wearing the same gym shorts I'd worn since the first form with nothing on underneath for all sports,and we never wore a vest or anything on top, even for cross country running.I don't think any of us thought anything about of it; we just got used to it and enjoyed the feeling of freedom.

I resented having to do PE with nothing on underneath those thin white shorts we wore. We always seemed to have to do a lot of running on the spot and star jumps in the gym, which inevitably caused what I later realised was a partial erection.. Although not very athletic, I was well developed in that embarrasing area. Having the PE teacher kneeling down in front of me watching me closely while encouraging me to get my knees higher when jogging on the spot(he often picked on me, it seemed) only added to my discomfort.

Catching up with the athletic support discussion, I never saw them at school in the '60s, but I didn't do gym after the fifth form and it is possible that the 1st XV had them. I never wore anything under shorts for gym, athletics, rugby or hockey.

We used to try to keep our gym shorts from the first form to the fifth. As the elastic slackened we turned over the waistbands to keep them up. This made the shorts shorter and tighter across the front, which did provide some support.

We never wore vests for gym and so the daring boys whose waistbands were low on their hips were not wearing much by the time they reached the fifth, but I don't think boys or masters thought anything of it.

Hi Alf
Yes a few resented it because they might not have been so well developed as some of their peers, and they didn't like younger boys seeing that obviously.
We use to swim either as a class (obviously same age - average class size say 20), or as a house which meant that a 10 year old boy could be in the same pool as a 13 year old.

Gavin,

Were there any boys who resented being naked during swim classes?

Considewring that there was quite a big age difference at the school, were the classes separate by age groups or all together? How many boys would there be in each swim class?

Hi Olderscot,

Like you my Ex said they weren't allowed to wear athletic supports until the start of their 3rd year at secondary school. He said that some of his classmates could really have done with getting one sooner!

No such age restrictions applied to the type of support required by us girls. A few of my classmates started to wear bras during our last year at primary school, whereas others didn't need them until the 2nd year at secondary.

Alf
The kind of visitors were mainly potential school boys and their parents. On rare occasions that boy might have a sister probably tagging along because they had to! But apart from them I don't remember anyone ekse. I certainly don't think any other member of staff apart from the swimming master or house master/tutor would have had the slightest interest in watching us boys otherwise.

Peter B

No, I said that when it came to inter school contests we wore trunks

To Gavin,

You said " Yes, some of the boys who had turned 13 did start to resent visitors being present when they were naked."

What kind of visitors did you have during your nude swimming classes, were they school staff or others who were visiting to watch?
Did female teachers or other females also came to watch?

So Gavin A are you saying swimming galas for your school with parents or the public present were swum naked?

What would the date have been year wise. It does seem a strange situation, but I suppose some years ago people were not so worried. I do not know if I woolud have been happy swimming naked in front of strangers let alone my own family

Hi, I note some comments regarding jock straps or Athletic supports to give their proper name. Like many others we only wore white cotton gym shorts and were subject to the " no underwear " rule which was common at the time. When we entered 3rd year around ages 14/15 we were allowed to buy a Litesome support from the school PE dept. Most boys did this. Looking back it was interesting that the rule was based on what year you were in rather than an individual boy's age or requirement for support. Some boys should have been allowed to wear a support much earlier as those shorts offered no support.

Happy to answer any queries .

James

Hi Alf,
Our parents had to buy the swimsuits as part of our uniform.

I went to an all girls secondary school.

James

We all wanted to wear a jockstrap at 13 or 14, just as the older boys were wearing them already. Litesome was the only brand in those days. Most boys possessed two jockstraps, one with and without a pouch (for a box .. i.e. cricket). Very much a coming of age aspect, and although they aren't common today I am still glad to say that I, my sons and grandchildren still wear them for sport.

Ronnie

To answer your questions: I don't think we had any problems with other teachers (90% + were male) watching us.

Did any of the boys feel any embarrassment being nude in front of everyone else during these lessons, especially at the older age? As said we could wear trunks from the senior school onwards. Yes, some of the boys who had turned 13 did start to resent visitors being present when they were naked. All swimming contests with other schools were never in the nude in front of parents and other guests, we wore navy blue speedos (official school colours). Our school was a boys only school.

Hi ,James your experiences with first seeing and then wearing a Litesome jockstrap are very similar to my own I got mine in 1977.

James. I totally agree with your comments about jockstraps. In an earlier email I explained how us boys went to the local sports shop to buy one. Like you we felt very grown up as a result. We continued to wear them for sports even after leaving school and college.I also agree how comfortable they were and cannot understand why they have gone out of fashion. They were much more comfortable than modern sports briefs. Difficult to get now but are still available via the internet.

Andrea, were the swimsuits supplied by the school or had to be bought by the parents as part of the school kit?

And what did the boys wear, if anything? :)

Olderscot,

I heard about the tawse in Scottish schools and how it was used liberally by most teachers, just like you describe.
Incidentally there was a small documentary on BBC radio about it only a week or two ago. It probably can still be found on the BBC Radio documentary site in mp3 form.

It documents how a Scottish mother whose son was belted at school took the case to the European Court of Justice which forced the British Parliament to take a vote against all corporal punishment in British schoools.

Gavin,

Apart from the intructor or coach could anyone else from the school, especially female staff or teachers, watch during your nude swimming lessons?
Did any of the boys feel any embarrassment being nude in front of everyone else during these lessons, especially at the older age?
I read some other old posts here who said that they had swimming galas in the nude in front of parents and other guests.

I assume that yours was either a boys only school or the boys and girls had separate swimming classes.
I also find it strange, or maybe justified for some reasons, that only boys were not allowed to wear anything for swimming classes, but not for girls.

Presumably the schools which had nude swimming had their own pools?

We had swimming lessons for a couple of years at Secondary school, but these were at a local council owned pool. We had to wear regulation navy blue one piece swimsuits.

Going back to previous conversations,
Yes I was at Grammar school in the late 60's. I have mentioned before that it was suggested that if we were "uncomfortable' we should get a jockstrap. At that point I didn't really know what one was, but I saw an older boy putting one on in the changing rooms before his shorts and I put two and two together. I thought that it must feel weird, but I had to find out.
I went to the local sports shop and came out with a Litesome, like so many others here. It did feel strange but very comfortable, if a bit draughty!
Quite a few friends went on to get them as it was like the next step to being 'grown up".
I can't understand why they are not so popular now as, for me, they were more comfortable than any other underwear, support and freedom all at once.

I know that now it is many years since senior schools were all boys schools but does anyone recall how they felt the first time they were in a swimming lesson with everyone naked. Especially if the first time it was experienced was in the secondary or senior school.

Ronnie
English independent school (1965 - 1976 ) we swam without trunks from 7 to 13/14 and then trunks were allowed