Burnley Grammar School

Comment by: Russ on 19th March 2024 at 02:13


With equal respect to you, Russ, you have avoided answering my question just as much as Angela and David did. The question is: WHY do we persist with the antique idea of single sex schools?


When these peculiarly repulsive cases come up (and the one you refuse to read is especially egregious, - as was the notorious Royal Liberty case) nine time out of ten they take place in single sex schools. Let's be frank - homosexuality and lesbianism is not illegal, but paedophilia is - and what do you call a man who is interested in boys, or women interested in girls? If I am being illiberal, then so be it. I think only married or cohabiting teachers should be in charge of locker rooms and showers, preferably parents themselves. I of course, mean marriage/cohabiting in the conventional use of that term, male/female. Single sex schools must be a magnet for teachers with this appalling aberration.

I make no secret of the fact that I have reservations with teachers. There must be something very inadequate in a man, say of my age, who insists on little boys of 11, or older lads of 16 calling him "sir" all the time. It reminds me of one of my more insufferable customers who always likes to refer to himself as "Mr. Smith" (not his real name, btw). You call yourself Bill Smith, Smith or Bill - "Mr", like "sir" - is a courtesy title bestowed on you by others, not conferred on yourself. Their ego must be round their ankles, if they need this constant obsequious "respect". What's wrong with plain old "Mr"? . When they go to work they might well be calling their boss by his/her forename.

also:

"....I also found Nathan's school vote to be very illuminating as well, and exactly what I'd expect. Actually I noticed that your coin vote Nathan from two weeks ago produced an even more decisive result than what you did last week, but of course when I saw that result sitting on these pages late on Sunday night I just knew that one of the first out the traps was going to be you Alan picking up on that figure of 64 rather than the 186....."




I still think the views of sixty four lads, (not an inconsiderable number, and some of them at the older range) and their discomfiture, deserves to be taken into consideration, - don't you? - and, again, neither you or Nathan (or anyone else) has given an adequate explanation of why shirtless PE is still necessary in the 21st century. Nathan gave some excuse about checking development of muscle groups, but is he seriously suggesting these change from week to week? Come off it!. Most of what happens in schools is down to using power and/or doing things because "that's the way we've always done it" , or they just like to demonstrate their authority with absurd rules.

If we operated everything just the way we used to do it, we would still be riding round in horse and carts and tipping our forelocks to the Squire - those of us who could not afford Penny Farthing bicycles, that is.

Comment by: David on 18th March 2024 at 22:17
Alan:


"...... Someone teaching in a single sex school has nothing to prove about his/her orientation or motivations..... "


You do not think so, David?. I do, I am afraid, especially when we get so many examples of this sort of revolting behaviour in the press on a regular basis, and yet we are assured every potential teacher gets CRB checks. Clearly they are STILL not working in weeding out this sort of unsavoury individual.


Comment by: Angela on 18th March 2024 at 21:16



"Here we go again" indeed!
Why is this relevant to "English History in Pictures"

Cue yet another Volume of the Epistles of St Alan. Yawn!!"

I won't detain you from your yawns for too long, Angela, except to point out that even last week is history now.

If my posts make you feel so lethargic, please feel free to ignore them.

It is sad though that neither you or David addressed the gravamen of my argument, and that is why in 2024 we still persist with single sex schools. They are an anachronism in this day and age.

Angela and David are correct, and Nathan was a few weeks ago too.

With respect, I cannot quite believe that yet another press article has been placed on here by you Alan on the same subject yet again. This time in The Sun. I thought you had come to an understanding and finally managed to read the room on all this stuff. I will not be reading it. The Earl Spencer article last weekend was a slightly different case and was worthy I thought, but anyone can rattle off endless stories like the latest one if they look for them, they are bread and butter of tabloid journalism every week. The thousands of law abiding and professional teachers don't make the papers though do they.

Don't you remember this being said two months ago to you by our insider from school......

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 17th January 2024 at 06:37
Have people learnt absolutely nothing after the events before Christmas on this thread?
Come on now, let's not start repeating all that again.
Alan, it's long past time to stop this never ending agenda you persist with. We get the points but we don't need them forever rammed down our throats time and again. Know when to finally stop. I've been reasonably kind to you but you are now trying the patience of the most saintly of us.
We know there are dodgy PE teachers out there and always were, possibly still are. You are not telling anyone here anything they don't know.



Wise words. Quite right.

Orson was correct when he stated that this discussion could do with lightening up. I thought Iain's school comments idea was a good one to try and change the narrative a bit and raise a smile.

I also found Nathan's school vote to be very illuminating as well, and exactly what I'd expect. Actually I noticed that your coin vote Nathan from two weeks ago produced an even more decisive result than what you did last week, but of course when I saw that result sitting on these pages late on Sunday night I just knew that one of the first out the traps was going to be you Alan picking up on that figure of 64 rather than the 186. But I'd count that as very fortunate to even be given that chance to express an opinion at school like that in the first place, and that's democracy for you. Almost 75% in favour of bare chested PE when required says it all.

Alan:

I don't wanna offend you but you always choose the worst examples of teachers. Sadly there are some very bad people amongst them as in every vocation but most of the teachers don't have anything to do with seducing children no matter if they teach in a mixed or single sex school. Someone teaching in a single sex school has nothing to prove about his/her orientation or motivations. You don't ever mention the good examples of teachers. There are many many....

Comment by: Alan on 18th March 2024 at 19:31

"Here we go again" indeed!
Why is this relevant to "English History in Pictures"

Cue yet another Volume of the Epistles of St Alan. Yawn!!n

Here we go again - there must be something in the water in East London. Surely the time has come when education authorities should ban single sex schools:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/26769416/disgraced-pe-teacher-banned-teaching-life-sex-pupil/

I really liked the sarcasm in your school report Iain, the thing is that you are unlikely to get little gems like that nowadays with properly handwritten individual comments because some schools just go through a dull uninspiring tick box procedure that offers little insight. Comments such as those you put up on here Iain say lots about both you and your teacher.

Nathan, that all sounds exactly like I would have guessed, and it makes me think of my friendship group when I was a child and went out in a foursome, me and three others my age. We'd hang about down the local park and I'd go down there sometimes without my top and a couple of the others would do if it was a hot day in the holidays but one of our friends never went without his top, often the three of us would be shirtless and he wasn't, but that was okay, nobody ever said anything, that was how we naturally chose to be sometimes. It matches that 3 to 1 ratio and that's why I mention it, pick four random boys and one will feel different.

There is a good video from 1981 here of a skins versus shirts game in the school gym PE class, this one in Florida, where I noticed a contributor called Paula wrote from on 14th February. Skins and shirts obviously a worldwide thing, not just a British school favourite.

Some boys wearing dreadful 'crop tops' here, sort of going semi bare chested, not a good look, just go one way or the other, a bare midriff only on a boy looks naff. I wonder if the average American school like this would look quite so slim and lean nowadays, although even here I spotted a couple of overweight ones.

https://youtu.be/xkERhmQltO0?feature=shared

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 17th March 2024 at 22:38



You are to be congratulated, Nathan on carrying out your vote so thoroughly. But what of the 64 lads (a fairly sizeable number) who are not comfortable. Will they be allow to wear polo or tee shirts if they feel more comfortable so doing?.

I still, frankly, see no point whatsoever at this late date to make lads not wear a top, especially the older ones.


Comment by: Orson on 17th March 2024 at 21:35


Iain seems to have had a lot of teachers who read a great deal of Oscar Wilde, Orson. I have to admit that I was astonished, when my mum died, to find she had kept all my school reports - all hand-typed by our lovely school secretary, Mrs Fennemore (our school didn't even have an Amstrad PcW 8256!). Luckily, for her - and us - our reports tended to have very short comments "satis" was the best most of them could write if you were deemed OK, the usual "could do better" if you were not so hot. "Poor" in very bad cases. I was clearing the house and I have to say that those reports were the first thing to go on the bonfire when I was clearing the house, nearly 30 years ago now. They should have gone a decade before. The only thing I kept was my Technical Drawing course book, and it is still on my bookshelf to this day.

74.4% happy with going shirtless is a good percentage and very decisive.

There wasn't a great variation across the ages there. I'd have voted against if given a vote at 11 or 12 in all probability. But by 15 I would have voted in favour for sure. I gained confidence in PE as I progressed through secondary school in the late 70s early 80s where going shirtless was all a regular part of our physical education classes both inside for the gym and outside for athletics during summer term, plus swimming until age fourteen in summer term as well. The choice on being shirtless was always one made by the teacher for us. It's a big deal for some lads obviously. Good poll that though.

Last week we took a training shoe box vote on feelings about doing PE with or without a top on, at the end of PE on the way out of the lesson pupils were asked to pick up a slip of paper and write a 'yes' or 'no' on it and fold it in half and stick it in the box.

The question was - Is sometimes being asked by a teacher to do boys PE in a bare chest acceptable to you?

A nice clear question that I don't think anybody could argue with. I was allowed to do this after getting permission and submitting the actual question and there were no objections.

This only applies to the classes I took over the course of a week, and nobody else. I took two votes each day last week, one in morning and another in afternoon PE, actual gym classes only, not outdoors.

I'm doing a pre-Easter holidays parents afternoon/evening this Thursday and will be mentioning this to some of them.

Mon AM - Year 7 (age 11-12) - Class size 24 - Vote, Yes 18 - No 6.

Mon PM - Year 9 (age 13-14) - Class size 26 - Vote, Yes 19 - No 7.

Tues AM - Year 10 (age 14-15) - Class size 26 - Vote, Yes 20 - No 6.

Tues PM - Year 8 (age 12-13) - Class size 25 - Vote, Yes 17 - No 8.

Weds AM - Year 11 (age 15-16) - Class size 22 - Vote, Yes 17 - No 5.

Weds PM - Year 9 (13-14) - Class size 26 - Vote, Yes 18 - No 8.

Thurs AM - Year 7 (age 11-12) - Class size 27 - Vote, Yes 20 - No 7.

Thurs PM - Year 10 (age 14-15) - Class size 24 - Vote, Yes 19 - No 5.

Fri AM - Year 8 (age 12-13) - Class size 26 - Vote, Yes 20 - No 6.

Fri PM - Year 11 (age 15-16) - Class size 24 - Vote, Yes 18 - No 6.


So that is the detail in answer to the question I asked of exactly 250 boys last week.

Totalling 186 to 64 saying that doing PE in a bare chest and being asked to do so by the PE teacher is acceptable to them, so a 3 to 1 margin in favour.

I thought the results were very consistent across all ages actually.

I'd welcome any thoughts on this result. Thanks.

Comment by: Iain Dale on 15th March 2024 at 22:17
Has anyone got any good comments about themselves from PE teachers written on their old school reports that they are willing to share with others, either funny, sarcastic, very bad or very good?



I'm quite surprised nobody has yet answered your question Iain. I would do so myself but most of my old school stuff is boxed up and tucked out the way unlooked at in years. I have completely forgotten what anyone said about me but I don't think any of it was too dreadful.

I certainly think this thread could do with a bit of lightening up from time to time and found your own comments quite amusing, thanks for sharing them. You can learn a lot about your own teachers from the way they write down things about you.

Comment by: Jeff on 17th March 2024 at 12:56
"You say that Alan but wasn't it someone called Matthew on here about a month ago who mentioned going on a school trip and the WOMAN forcing the boy to take his damaged top off and walk around London in a bare chest for an afternoon by himself like that back in the 1970s and a MAN that thought it was not the thing to be doing.".


Yes, you are right, Jeff, a right old hag she sounded.

You say that Alan but wasn't it someone called Matthew on here about a month ago who mentioned going on a school trip and the WOMAN forcing the boy to take his damaged top off and walk around London in a bare chest for an afternoon by himself like that back in the 1970s and a MAN that thought it was not the thing to be doing.

The PE teacher Nathan DID answer your question by the way about an 'outright refusal' to shower, as you put it. I'm not sure why you are needing any more on that, he made it quite clear he would NEVER force anyone to do something like that if it was a major and serious problem for them that might impact their mental health, or words to that effect. I'm sure you didn't miss it.

The only reason so many men do this shirtless PE is because it's mostly men that take boys PE, certainly at age 12 and above, although I can think of a number of occasions at primary school myself when the ladies there had boys leaping about the school hall half undressed.

Comment by: Luke on 16th March 2024 at 21:30


It is interesting how it always seems to be male teachers that are so keen to see young lads running round with next to nothing on. The "profession" seems to be full of this kind of man.

It would be interesting to know when the time period was, Luke.

My own introduction to doing PE shirtless came quite unexpectedly when I was halfway through middle school and halfway through the school year when my class teacher had to leave on maternity to have a baby. A new male teacher took over our mixed class, and as most of you will know when you are in middle school your class teacher took you for most of the subjects including PE.

The new man didn't waste any time doing things his way and as soon as he took our class for PE first time he told the boys not to bother with our T-shirts, we could go without, even though none of us had ever done PE at our middle school without wearing our T-shirts before. It must have instantly put quite a few boys on the defensive because I remember many of them saying that we never did PE like that. I was definitely nervous about it and I felt very strange for ages getting used to the new teacher and his different ways. For many months each week that new teacher was always making all the boys in class do PE shirtless. Only when I went up to the next year and gained another new teacher did she return to how I'd been doing things before my other teacher had left on maternity leave.

No other teacher who took me for PE at my middle school ever made boys do it with a bare chest.

Gym Coach Advice.

https://youtu.be/s5UQzXgAflA?feature=shared

Greg2, my grammar schooling was in the same era you identified for yourself, the last couple of years of the sixties and first few of the seventies, 1968 until 1973. The PE at the time was a definite bare chest each time for gym itself, although footwear could be either plimsolls light or dark, or the bare foot option. I think there was a mix of all those much of the time. It's interesting that they went firm on going bare chests in school gym for boys but were not so firm on how we sorted our feet and gave more leeway on that.

When it came to showers there was no leeway given, they were never optional and the communal and very naked experience was expected of everyone at the same time. Now I was struck by what Graeme S said about being defiant and actually getting away with it, bar the odd detention. Now I can remember a couple of boys trying to bunk off the showers actually being grabbed by the ears and pulled into the showers at school by an irate PE master at one time, having been made to strip on the spot while the teacher blew the roof off with his booming voice at them, so intimidating that even the rest of us looking on quivered. You didn't bunk the showers at school if you knew what was good for you. But I also have to say that I never remember anyone being about who should not have been so really there were no excuses not to do so.

Our school also had a number of built in tiled communal baths, did anyone else have such a thing? I think there were three or four small ones, but enough for possibly five or six to use together. They were not used after regular PE however, and only for older boys.

I think getting an introduction to communal group nudity among others the same age is not exactly a bad thing for a school to do with PE. It can help in many cases clear up any body issues people might have and demystify the physical nakedness of others, and create a bond of sorts. I believe shirtless PE had this effect up to a point also, and seeing what Craig has written in the last couple of days here seems to make this point, as his group running without shirts on looks very much like a way of making those men bond in a shared experience with one another. I can easily see the appeal of that. I ran the school 5 miler shirtless on many occasions for PE, the whole group had to, this could be up to sixty boys sometimes and was not only a sweaty but dirty event which would navigate bramble and all kinds of obstacles along the way, not just a clear run at it. It was obviously designed to make men of boys. Everyone at school did that.

That last comment from your teacher was absolutely hilarious Iain.

Now where did I put all mine?

Has anyone got any good comments about themselves from PE teachers written on their old school reports that they are willing to share with others, either funny, sarcastic, very bad or very good?

"Iain needs to exercise his tongue a little less and his legs a lot more" - sarcasm.

"Iain seems to overestimate his strengths and underestimate his weakness in PE with me" - a definite put down.

"Iain seems reluctant to get stuck into some of the more physical aspects of PE with others" - this may refer to rugby, such as scrums or something.

"Like oil and water, Iain and sweat do not appear to mix easily" - more sarcasm, said by a PE teacher who always thought he had the worlds best sense of humour. Nobody else did. You can see why.

Comment by: Terry on 15th March 2024 at 15:32

"I think Nathan has answered that question at least a couple of times hasn't he."

Well, up to a point, he says he would listen to them and try the psychological approach, to find out what bugged them, but if he got an outright refusal from a lad like Graeme, what would he do?

Comment by: Tony on 13th March 2024 at 13:31


"Interesting one this.

You don't sound shy or insecure as a child Graeme and didn't mention being so, and you did admit not disliking PE lessons.

It seems to me that what you were really concerned with was your actual privacy not being adequately looked after and that was the main issue, considering you mentioned the area seeming like a free for all with coming and goings. School changing rooms quite clearly should be and should always have been restricted areas."

I think you have it there in a nutshell, Tony - the way other staff members, who had nothing whatsoever to do with sports lessons dropping into the changing room to gossip to the PE master - you wondered why they were there, and in our case, it was noticeable, even to the more naive boys, how much our P.E. teacher seemed to spend more time watching you when you got older than they did when you started off at 11/12. Older lads should be trusted to attend to their ablutions without "supervision".

There should at the very least, be a ban on non PE staff being allowed to just drop in , and certainly women teachers (though we had none ourselves) - perhaps there is these days, but there wasn't back then.

Comment by: Alan on 15th March 2024 at 07:56
It begs the question - what would teachers do today? - they have less authority now than they did 40 years ago, and would not dare use physical force. I wonder what Nathan would do, given those circumstances?.




I think Nathan has answered that question at least a couple of times hasn't he.

It's telling just how much 'delayed annoyance' from older people over the age of forty there seems to be out there who now find themselves looking back to their school days up to more than fifty years ago and re-evaluating them all over again. For example, I am on a Facebook group dedicated to my old senior school which has attracted a huge number of comments about aspects of school life back in my day there (70s) and many of the same teachers names keep cropping up again and again, PE teachers being regularly mentioned, not always in good ways either, and showers at school is a frequent mention that comes along among such chats on my old school Facebook page set up by a former pupil where I went.

Comment by: Stephen on 14th March 2024 at 23:23


"I don't think that would have worked at my old school in 1974 Graeme. I think we'd have just been pushed in there with the PE kit or part of it still on and got wet, or quite possibly have had it forcibly taken off, not by a teacher but by other classmates first! "

I guess it depends on the sort of school you went to, Stephen. Graeme (who I very much admire) clearly went to a "good" school, since he mentions that many of his group went into the medical and legal professions. I am sure they would be aware - and their parents would be aware - of their rights. Even back in the 80s manhandling young lads would constitute a common assault in law. You might be right about what classmates might have done, but then they might have been better behaved than mine or yours. Then again, if teachers allowed other boys to do that, they would have been condoning bullying, which would not have gone down well if their parents wished to take it further. I wish I had had his guts.

It begs the question - what would teachers do today? - they have less authority now than they did 40 years ago, and would not dare use physical force. I wonder what Nathan would do, given those circumstances?.

Comment by: Craig on 14th March 2024 at 20:13



Congratulations on the success of your group, Craig - it is an achievement, especially in the open air in this country in the winter. I know how difficult it is to keep even an indoor cyber electronics group going. You should be safe pounding the streets with a policeman amongst your number - and he might even encourage a few of his colleagues to join. I don't think it would be for me though, in the dodgy area where I live.

I don’t remember ever having to do a shirtless gym lesson, we had a very strict dress code of all white for entering our school gym, rather like that old Grange Hill clip. Our gym teacher would not let any of us deviate from this, however insignificant any bit of colour here or there might have been. We didn’t have bare feet either, with footwear also having to be predominantly white. This was secondary school during the late 60s into the 70s, a time it seems, when shirtless gym was quite the routine in most other places.

I’ve tried to imagine whether it would have bothered me doing shirtless gym, and I’m not sure it would have really. Maybe because I grew up with brothers, both older and younger, though all of us preferred our privacy. We did share baths at the younger ages. My school gym lessons were usually all boys anyway which obviously would have helped. But I’m sure that if I’d had to share gym lessons with girls while being shirtless, as others have mentioned, and females on here have confirmed, I’m sure I’d have felt more self-conscious due to girls being far more focused and judgemental about boy classmates’ appearances, compared to how boys were. In fact I think it’s just disregarding to force boys to share lessons with girls wearing gym shorts only, and literally nothing else. I realise there’ll always be those who disagree with this: certainly those setting such rules; obviously attention seeking extrovert types; gym teachers, both male and females, though probably for different reasons; and probably most of the girls sharing the lesson.

Obviously showers were compulsory following gym. Like most I didn’t look forward to my first time, and do remember a feeling of resignation. Water was usually warm as far as I recall, and all supervised by our gym teacher. As for Kevin 1972’s recollections of almost anyone being invited into his changing room, well I remember it being quite routine for the girls’ gym teacher to waltz right through our changing room whenever she wanted, even though the girls’ door was only a few metres away. Eventually boys got fed up with this and started to make sure the outside door was locked. I can remember seeing her through the frosted door window, trying the door and then walking away.

I don’t hold any resentment for having had to shower communally all through those younger ages, and with our gym teacher ever present. Like others I’m sure, it helped me confront my self-consciousness about removing clothes amongst others. In fact I remember happily using public campsite showers with similar aged friends with no worries at all, around that same time. Recalling this though, I do remember there being a man sitting on the bench in front of the showers where you’d normally sit to undress. He’d be fully dressed and just seemed to sit there watching us. This might be thought suspicious today, but I’m sure I’m over-thinking things due to today’s social conditioning. I expect he was just waiting for us all to clear off, as I do remember we’d be playing about as much as just getting on with our showers.

Comment by: Graeme S on 12th March 2024 at 22:18
I wrote the following short essay on another thread a couple of years ago and thought I might share it here where there seems to be some turnover of opinion on the subject;
When I was 12 years old, this was in 1983, me and four others flatly refused to use the school showers like we were told to do.



I don't think that would have worked at my old school in 1974 Graeme. I think we'd have just been pushed in there with the PE kit or part of it still on and got wet, or quite possibly have had it forcibly taken off, not by a teacher but by other classmates first! There is no way I could ever have imagined my PE teachers allowing us to disobey them and continue to do so on such a thing. All boys showered at school whether you liked it or not, it was never up for discussion and you knew not to even try.

Comment by: Neil on 10th March 2024 at 21:51
Great read on the 'bareskin' running Craig. I think I want to try this too!

Comment by: Ethan on 12th March 2024 at 00:05
Good to hear about your latest bareskin running exploits Craig.



Try it Neil, arrange one yourself, it's so easy to do.

We gained our 30th member last night and he wants to go on a late nighter tonight with me just the two of us at 10.30pm for a short couple of miles before joining a bigger group bareskin run in future.

For anyone interested, I only actually knew 8 of these men before it all started but it's been a great way to make some new contacts.

I even think someone with low self esteem who disliked bare chested PE in school such as Alan could find they benefit far more than they could ever imagine in the company of a group like ours.

Paul G - I am interested as well.

Kevin 1972 - I thought your post was quite remarkable there for your age. I concur that nobody who shouldn't be there should be allowed in any changing area, especially where showering is taking place openly.

Nathan Hind - I am looking forward to your latest news on how you've been surveying your pupils regards bareskins for PE days.

Comment by: Hugh on 20th January 2024 at 18:22
I’ve thought it for some time that here we have more of a Carl Beech than anything else otherwise why would someone who is so perpetually obsessed with abuse not have done something rather than continue to post here to an utterly disinterested audience.




I'm interested. You don't know what you're talking about.

For a lot of people school has a dark underbelly. It should not be brushed under the carpet as inconvenient.

The comments since the weekend on the Mail story prove it.

Comment by: Graeme S on 12th March 2024 at 22:18

Interesting one this.

You don't sound shy or insecure as a child Graeme and didn't mention being so, and you did admit not disliking PE lessons.

It seems to me that what you were really concerned with was your actual privacy not being adequately looked after and that was the main issue, considering you mentioned the area seeming like a free for all with coming and goings. School changing rooms quite clearly should be and should always have been restricted areas.

Comment by: Graeme S on 12th March 2024 at 22:18


I only wish I had had your guts, Graeme, and I congratulate you. I only wish I had the courage to be that brave back then. Of course, the cane was still used in our school, but I hope, if we have young readers they read your words and act on them - these days of course, the teachers haven't got the power they had back then, so there is very little they could do now. Long live the rebels.

I don't know whether you went to an all boys school, as I did, but I felt back then - more so in adulthood - that men who want to work in a single sex school should have their motives questioned. Far too many have been caught up to no good - sadly, far too many who should have been, got away with it.

I wish you had been at my school - I would have joined your group! - as it was, we were all too scared of our teachers - they instilled fear from day one at 11.

I wrote the following short essay on another thread a couple of years ago and thought I might share it here where there seems to be some turnover of opinion on the subject;


When I was 12 years old, this was in 1983, me and four others flatly refused to use the school showers like we were told to do. This of course had consequences for us and we got a number of lunchtime and after school detentions for this, but it did not stop us. We simply got dressed and walked out the changing room. Our gang of five was quite militant looking back. We were all surprisingly confident for our ages and intelligent. But what could our PE teachers do about it, not a lot other than huff and puff a lot and throw a few detentions at us which didn't work. Even in 1983 there was no chance they were actually going to get hold of us and physically remove our clothes from us and we knew it.

In the end they just gave up on us on the issue and that was that. By the age of 12 there was no way I was going to let my own family, either of my parents see me taking a bath or a shower with nothing on so I was not going to let a teacher do so either and neither were our small gang of friends.

We had showered in our first few weeks at school but found it increasingly objectionable that two of the teachers seemed to pay very close attention to us as we did so and also that they let others into our changing room while we did it. It seemed like our boys changing room became a place for other members of the male staff to be allowed to come in and look at boys changing and having showers. That was just wrong.

Kids of 12 probably don't think they hold much clout against adults but they do if they commit to a course of action and hold firm. 12 year olds back then seemed far more mature than nowadays to me. I must admit to surprising myself at my militancy over the issue in school because I was not a troublemaker and neither were any of the rest of our gang, except for this one thing. None of our parents were very pleased with us and my own thought I was being over sensitive.

Isn't it a great shame that there were not far more confident senior school age youngsters who grouped together to tough it out against some of these demands they used to make of us. A couple of our little gang did actually hate PE but the others like me were far from PE phobic. You have more power than you realise even as a kid in school who feels they are just being pushed around into doing things.

Every one of our small gang at school who did this ended up doing highly professional jobs in the legal or medical professions. I remember looking through the sex offenders register at one point and being quite shocked at just how many people were on it who were marked down as former male PE teachers who took advantage of what that job allowed them to do.

When I read comments like Kevin's and then consider just how different he was with how I felt at school, completely not bothered by shirtlessness or showering, that's a vast chasm of differences that has to be contained within a one class situation. I was so carefree at school I'd have probably loved to share everything with the girls at the time, including the changing room! I think most boys sat somewhere between my at times enthusiastic over confidence and people like Kevin's lack of it or anxious state of mind. I think it's genetic in part, not just environment. You are what you are.

Malcolm, I really hate to hear the gay jibe you mentioned there just because some boys actually choose to shower at school while others don't. It's so pathetic. I'm completely heterosexual with a family but I'd have jumped in and taken a shower even if I didn't have to do so too. I thought those kind of lazy insults were a thing of the dim and distant past, a shame to hear you say that about something quite recent. I applaud the confidence of those boys in doing so and your own grandson being one of them.