Burnley Grammar School

I wrote the following short essay on another thread a couple of years ago and thought I might share it here where there seems to be some turnover of opinion on the subject;


When I was 12 years old, this was in 1983, me and four others flatly refused to use the school showers like we were told to do. This of course had consequences for us and we got a number of lunchtime and after school detentions for this, but it did not stop us. We simply got dressed and walked out the changing room. Our gang of five was quite militant looking back. We were all surprisingly confident for our ages and intelligent. But what could our PE teachers do about it, not a lot other than huff and puff a lot and throw a few detentions at us which didn't work. Even in 1983 there was no chance they were actually going to get hold of us and physically remove our clothes from us and we knew it.

In the end they just gave up on us on the issue and that was that. By the age of 12 there was no way I was going to let my own family, either of my parents see me taking a bath or a shower with nothing on so I was not going to let a teacher do so either and neither were our small gang of friends.

We had showered in our first few weeks at school but found it increasingly objectionable that two of the teachers seemed to pay very close attention to us as we did so and also that they let others into our changing room while we did it. It seemed like our boys changing room became a place for other members of the male staff to be allowed to come in and look at boys changing and having showers. That was just wrong.

Kids of 12 probably don't think they hold much clout against adults but they do if they commit to a course of action and hold firm. 12 year olds back then seemed far more mature than nowadays to me. I must admit to surprising myself at my militancy over the issue in school because I was not a troublemaker and neither were any of the rest of our gang, except for this one thing. None of our parents were very pleased with us and my own thought I was being over sensitive.

Isn't it a great shame that there were not far more confident senior school age youngsters who grouped together to tough it out against some of these demands they used to make of us. A couple of our little gang did actually hate PE but the others like me were far from PE phobic. You have more power than you realise even as a kid in school who feels they are just being pushed around into doing things.

Every one of our small gang at school who did this ended up doing highly professional jobs in the legal or medical professions. I remember looking through the sex offenders register at one point and being quite shocked at just how many people were on it who were marked down as former male PE teachers who took advantage of what that job allowed them to do.

When I read comments like Kevin's and then consider just how different he was with how I felt at school, completely not bothered by shirtlessness or showering, that's a vast chasm of differences that has to be contained within a one class situation. I was so carefree at school I'd have probably loved to share everything with the girls at the time, including the changing room! I think most boys sat somewhere between my at times enthusiastic over confidence and people like Kevin's lack of it or anxious state of mind. I think it's genetic in part, not just environment. You are what you are.

Malcolm, I really hate to hear the gay jibe you mentioned there just because some boys actually choose to shower at school while others don't. It's so pathetic. I'm completely heterosexual with a family but I'd have jumped in and taken a shower even if I didn't have to do so too. I thought those kind of lazy insults were a thing of the dim and distant past, a shame to hear you say that about something quite recent. I applaud the confidence of those boys in doing so and your own grandson being one of them.

Comment by: Dave on 10th March 2024 at 15:53
Richard:
What was the reaction of your classmates and of you having to be shirtless for PE back then? Was it ever a topic of conversation among you? How did you play team sports being shirtless all the time? Did you have any mixed PE lessons with girls present?


I have seen you ask this question a few times to people about PE with girls present. Is there any reason you yourself ask it particularly? I shared PE with boys wearing no nothing on their bodies and never saw any reason for them to be bashful about it.

Kevin 1972, I was actually at school in the year of your name here, sometimes sharing the kinds of mixed classes alongside early teenage boys told to go bare chested myself and I'm sorry to read about your own insecurities there. If it's any consolation I always used to look upon the boys I shared with in PE quite favourably and thought they looked good doing PE like that actually.

If you were at a mixed school, like me, should there have been complete segregation do some here advocate? I think that would have been a great pity, it was nice to do at least some PE in mixed company in the school gym at times rather than being among just the girls. I have some nice memories of doing this.

I often took turns to drive my grandson into school some days when the weather was not so great outside eight to ten years ago and we'd have a little chat about what he would get up to that day as we went along. We'd talk about all subjects, teachers, people, you name it. One day I noticed as he was going through his school bag next to me that he had a small hand towel wrapped around his trainers in the bag and I asked what it was for and he told me he always brings it on PE days. I had no idea he took a shower at school after PE, however it wasn't the old fashioned compulsory arrangement that many older men will remember, myself included, but a purely voluntary one. He told me that after PE it was always the same six or seven boys in his class that used the shower, about a quarter to a third of his class size but that these boys had at one time received some hurtful 'gay' comments from other ignorant boys just because they were keen to, chose to and were comfortable having a shower after a PE lesson. Boys and men can be at ease with each other in such situations without these type of comments being true of course and always have.

Comment by: Kevin 1972 on 11th March 2024 at 23:19


"I was a really over anxious child and teenager from about the age of 9 until 17. It was only when I left school and started a nice regular job that I enjoyed that I started losing that trait."


I can go along with that, too, Kevin. When I started work, I was genuinely amazed to find that your employer and other people you worked with were friendly, polite, helpful and even knew your first name. I worked for small and medium sized companies, always steering clear of large companies, which, I worried would be as bad as school, with their "us and them" mentality.


I always find it incredible schools claim that they are "preparing us for the world of work" - perhaps that might be so if we were all going to join the army, but their regimented command-based nonsense is NOTHING like the world of work - some of the teachers gave themselves ridiculous airs. I remember that at one point the teaching unions, having had their noses put out of joint, by Mrs Thatcher trying to bring them to heel, would mount strikes and walk-outs. and every time they did so, an especially prolix union leader would be on the radio mumbling one phrase which angered me then, and still does - "at the chalk face" - an oblique reference to the miners "at the coal face". and it really angered me that these weak, flabby old men would dare to compare themselves with the brave men who, at great personal danger and filthy conditions, worked hard long shifts down the mines.

Don't feel bad about your feelings at school, Kevin. Even as a kid I always believed that if schooldays really WERE "the happiest days of your life", then we might as well have topped ourselves then and there. Things do get better once those days are over, for most of us.

Hello TimH, could you explain this comment underneath for the benefit of those of us who think we know what you mean but would like to be sure. Your reference to the two ladies here added to my own confusion a bit and made me less sure I'd understood what you were meaning.

Tim H - 'Thanks to Val & Linda for their recent comments.'

'I'm away for a few days and its possible I may not return to this 'board' - like others who have left in recent months I don't like the tone of some postings, which I find OTT.'

Kevin

As I said on this site sone time ago, I put a lot of my anxiety down to having an outie tummy button.

Though I've never considered whether I'd have been fine if it looked like others'. I think so.

Good to hear about your latest bareskin running exploits Craig.

I get quite a few late night joggers around my road going past. I did see one in daytime a few months ago run by without a shirt on all by himself but he was quite young and it was a hot day, so doesn't really count like what you do I suppose.

I was a really over anxious child and teenager from about the age of 9 until 17. It was only when I left school and started a nice regular job that I enjoyed that I started losing that trait.

I can remember even very young being over anxious about things in my primary school, and this is where my PE anxiety about my body started. At primary school the ladies that took the class for PE always made the boys remove everything on top and do the PE lesson in the school hall in our bare chest and feet, alongside the girls. This was also done with music and movement and also sometimes with country dancing too. I really disliked it and I never liked the ladies that took us for PE at primary school either, they never took part properly in the lesson and just gave orders from up front at us. After the May Day bank holiday until we broke up for summer in late July the boys at primary would be expected to go outside for PE in our bare chest just like we did for PE in the school hall and when the sports day came around in mid June each year our families were invited along and we had to hang out in a bare chest at that too which made me feel incredibly self conscious by the time I was ten or eleven. When I did it at the age of eight I didn't feel anything like as anxious.

When I went up to secondary school things got even tougher. It was much the same in that school sports hall as it had been at my primary school, nearly all the time boys PE was conducted in a compulsory bare chest, the only difference being we no longer shared with girls. Then came the compulsory having to go in the showers when I by twelve and I did make something of an issue about doing so on numerous occasions and tried to wriggle out of doing so and getting into trouble over it, but I wasn't the only one that got up to that. I remember the constant need to compare what I looked like with others and it making me hate my own body for some reason, always thinking everyone else looked better than me, even though they didn't really. I absolutely hated being forced to shower with nothing on.

Don't get me wrong, I was never bullied by anyone, teachers or others in class but I was always at war with my own over anxious state which PE lessons brought to the fore in a big way. But boys are not really allowed to say they feel afraid or seriously shy and self conscious of being naked among other boys and they most certainly are not allowed to openly admit they feel uncomfortable being bare chested openly among others in a class situation in school. But I was. I remember sometimes, especially when I was first doing these things that my stomach used to churn almost to the point of feeling sick sometimes. Even after quite some time I always used to feel a little stomach churn as another bare chest PE lesson came along, much more so at secondary school actually.

My confidence about myself only started to grown after leaving school and throughout my twenties I suppose. When I look back at how anxious I was in my schooldays at PE and what it meant doing I feel a real sense of disappointment in myself that I lacked so much confidence at the time and wish it hadn't been that way.

From being that unconfident child, worried sick to take his shirt off for PE or be naked for the showers, I've gone the other way and actually have full confidence in my body now at the age of 51 and haven't felt bothered by being bare chested in years. I wonder if anyone else can relate to this in any way, such a difference between their young self and adult self in terms of esteem about how they look and what they show of themselves in front of others.

If I could give advice to my younger self it would be simple - don't worry, it doesn't matter, you look fine.

Replying to Richard's post of 20.51 on 7th March.

You say: Picking up a point on commercial gyms desiring coverage and not showing actual bodies while on their premises, can this really be the case? I saw a really peculiar video which made the news from the USA about a year ago in one gym over there where someone minding their own business working out shirtless in a quiet gym was approached by a very creepy man asking about his shirtless working out. The whole incident was filmed and was very strange indeed. Maybe someone else can find it online and post it, or knows about it.

I think the answer to the first part of your query is; If you look at the big 'chain' gyms they'll say 'appropriate attire' (or similar) is required. This allows a pretty wide range of clothing but I think its pretty implicit that tops should be worn. Whether or not there are any 'independant' gyms out there which allow topless, I don't know and I'm not going to waste time trying to prove the point. As I think I commented, the only problem at my gym was when a couple of guys used the pool, etc., in their underpants - this was reported and action taken.

Regarding the filming - I suspect most, if not all, gyms ban filming on its entirety, in both pools & gyms & also changing rooms.

Regarding dark glazed windows - my gym was refurbished a year ago and looking in from street level, the windows are darkened preventing people seeing in. I suspect a lot of gyms follow this practice. If you walk down the street I think you'll see a good number of shops have all or part of their windows obscured. I believe its known as 'privacy'.

Thanks to Val & Linda for their recent comments.

I'm away for a few days and its possible I may not return to this 'board' - like others who have left in recent months I don't like the tone of some postings, which I find OTT.

Comment by: Russ on 10th March 2024 at 19:48
(and Neil)





"....The trouble is the kind of parents who pay and send off to these places have quite remote relationships with their own children in so many cases.

I've also noticed a pattern with some of these stories at times, there is the forced naked swimming and here it is again written down, not the PE teacher doing it but the Latin teacher for God's sake....."


Russ, I want to thank you for your understanding - it does mean a lot. In regards to the first part of the quote - let's just say it is not only parents who send their children away to school that have a lack of interest.

I remember clearly after Burke's rubber hit me instead of Tony that there was a lot of laughter - probably from my reaction as the first thing I did was to feel my teeth, to make sure there was no broken tooth (of course the other kids didn't know that dental damage is fatal for anyone who plays a brass instrument, as the configuration of teeth and gums is individual and any alteration can ruin your embouchure) At the time it was the knowledge that there was no harm done, and the relief, that got me more than the anger and sense of injustice. It was painful for a few days, especially during my 2 hour practice session each evening, but that is nothing to what the Earl went through.

I can understand why it took him (and many others) years before they could talk about it, Neil. It is not something you want to admit to, for fear of either not being believed or thinking that others might think you have encouraged it. It makes you look a bit weak. You think - wrongly - if you bury it, it will never reappear.

This naked swimming, Russ you speak of - that was a feature in the scandalous Royal Liberty case which I have mentioned, which is far more recent. There the main protagonist used to lock the doors of the school's pool, before making the boys swim naked. I know in the past naked swimming has been discussed on this site, and in my view, whether it happened in the 1950s or any decade thereafter, that should be a red flag for any parent. Once that kind of line is crossed, it is giving almost carte blanche for any indignity to be inflicted on boys. I can say that could not have happened at our school, because they had only the use of the local public swimming pool. East Ham Baths, who would never have tolerated that kind of indecency.

I always consider myself lucky that I had an outside interest to which I could escape, where I mixed with very different people to the old relics who taught me, but some lads didn't, and I am sorry to say some turned to crime.

It doesn't matter what strata of society you belonged to - I feel as sorry for Earl Spenser and the other lads who went through what they did, just as much as the working class lads who went through any form of abuse or coercion from teachers. It does leave a legacy - in the Earl's case it has clearly left him with scars, in my case, a cynical mistrust of anybody in "authority" especially teachers.

I do wish, though, that parents DID take more interest. I have mentioned before how I live very close to a bus stop which takes the kids each day to one of the three schools the route serves. Most look quite happy and they laugh and play about, but you often see one or two alone and looking far from happy, and you often wonder why. I would like to think that their parents asked themselves the same question, and tried to get to the root of whatever the problem is. I guess it is usually bullying - either by other pupils, but, who knows, perhaps a teacher.

Real men do P.E showing a bare chest. Just look how confident the guys here are doing at a school my late grandad attended, he was there from 1932 to 1936.

Men Of Tomorrow (1938) from British Pathe.

'Look at the splendid physique as they get into line' says the wonderfully British commentary. Absolutely, actually they already looked like men to me but are aged 13 to 17, some do look older. My grandfather once went to this school, Berkhamsted School and did this there.

https://youtu.be/65rww9nZtEA?feature=shared

When am I going to start seeing some of these increasing number of barechest runners coming past my front door!

I've got my camera phone at the ready lads - should I admit that, oops. I bet you looked fabulous going along.

Concur with the comments about the press article on Diana's brother's school. Utterly disgusting.

Comment by: Richard on 9th March 2024 at 21:12
My answer to you Mel as a child who spent many a time in a school PE lesson in just my shorts is don't worry about it at all. With any group of people you are going to get a few who are not so confident or shy about things, and school is no different. It's normal.
I myself NEVER wore a top in the school gym for PE in the mid to late 70s from the day I arrived until fifth form broke up for exams, and whoever took us it was the same, and I must have had about 6 to 8 different male PE teachers during my time at Filton High in Gloucestershire that I was at.




Thankyou for this Richard. I have seen your Flickr photo's and your gym looked very nice.

I was also appalled to read the Mail today. Now that really is something to think about and puts worrying a little about the PE kit into perspective somewhat.

It's hard to disagree with you both Russ and Terry and the nature of that article. It was grim reading indeed. I think boys getting sent away to boarding schools have always faced a certain vulnerability for the obvious reasons. Very few people that come to this thread seem to have been boarders, just regular day pupils and not even Alan is claiming anything on the level of that Sunday Mail article.

I do have trouble understanding such a long period of silence on the matter though. I would have been screaming from the rooftops if anyone had done any of those things to me. I saw what you wrote about your mum's reaction to coming home with a face mark having been clobbered by mistake from a teacher with the blackboard wiper. In my home Alan, I'd have told mum and she would have then told dad who would have then taken charge and been up the school pronto! Why was your mum so soft?

Great read on the 'bareskin' running Craig. I think I want to try this too!

That was a good update Craig, thanks.

So you've got a PC on board for that. I can't resist saying this but it seems the only way to get a bobby on the beat pounding the actual streets now is to get them shirtless then!

Good luck getting your member number 30, solicitors and police, certainly attracting the professional class isn't it.

Responding to what Terry wrote, I agree.

Earl Spencer said something in that article that also made me think of how you write on here at times Alan with your own angst.

"'I've frequently witnessed deep pain, still flickering in the eyes of my Maidwell contemporaries,' he writes. 'Many of us left Maidwell with demons sewn into the seams of our souls.'"


That is a very powerful last sentence I think.

A very deeply shocking story, with a school from the headmaster down, the latin teacher and the matron who was barely a teenager herself, to name just three there, all abusing their positions and the parents paying a small fortune for it all. The trouble is the kind of parents who pay and send off to these places have quite remote relationships with their own children in so many cases.

I've also noticed a pattern with some of these stories at times, there is the forced naked swimming and here it is again written down, not the PE teacher doing it but the Latin teacher for God's sake.

"The school's violent Latin master, Henry Maude, beat him with the spikes of a cricket boot and knocked another boy unconscious.

Maude selected boys for naked swimming sessions, during which the teacher would be visibly sexually aroused.

Earl Spencer was gripped by such 'despair' when returning to Maidwell after holidays that he regularly considered shooting himself in the foot with one of his father's shotguns.

Reliving Maidwell's regime of 'casual cruelty' and 'sexual assault' has been an 'absolutely hellish experience'"


I thought it was quite revealing that Earl Spencer said it only began to hit home what had happened by the time he reached his 40s while in therapy. I think something similar might have happened on here with some posters who offload long unsaid thoughts about their schooldays, of which you are the most obvious example Alan.

I hope that anybody who comes on this thread with any abuse or dismissing of you in the future will no longer be tolerated. Reading over recent weeks since the new year does seem like a more reasonable discussion even when there is disagreement.

I always had one teacher at school, in PE, who I wanted to avoid at all costs if possible but compared to what I read in the Mail article he was a pussycat. I would be totally devastated tonight if I had a son Earl Spencer's age who had gone to that school.

Interesting to read what you say there Stuart B. I presume you really wanted to know why they were running shirtless, not what they were running for, and they misunderstood or something along those lines.

Now we are getting into spring soon our group has grown on some of the more recent runs we do. Yesterday we had one of our biggest ever bareskin runs together when 14 of us managed it, doing nearly 10 miles during Saturday afternoon around a local beauty spot not far from most of our homes. Our group now has 29 members and I'm sure we are going to gain our 30th any day now.

It's a complete fallacy to think that only supremely confident men take to doing bareskin running with bare chests outdoors. I'm sure that there are plenty of men on here who have spoken about how happy they were at school doing shirtless PE within the gym who would not as adults be at all willing to do what I do for example, even if they have kept themselves in reasonable shape into middle age or older.

It didn't surprise me when you said you had seen a 60 year old doing this Stuart, our group had a 66 year old running with us yesterday and he's in better shape than many half his age I should add. But the point of running like this isn't about showing off ourselves or keeping it exclusive to people in good trim fit shape, we would equally welcome someone who was overweight (or underweight) and wanted to use it to better themselves as well. We make absolutely no judgement at all about how anyone looks and anyone is welcome to join us if they are genuine about it, or just want to try as a one off to see if it's for them.

A couple of weekends ago on a quite chilly night I did a late evening 10pm bareskin run with three other men on a short half hour sprint and we came upon a community PCSO who saw us and gestured for us to stop, which was fine but this very young woman actually asked us what we were doing, and we said running and wanted to know why we were doing it bare chested, bless her, she thought we must be frozen, we weren't, fresh yes. One of the gentleman with me, a 45 year old solicitor asked her if she had stopped us out of personal curiosity or if she thought we were committing an offence of some kind. It was curiosity, obviously no offence, and I asked if she had any male colleagues who would like to join us anytime, and handed over my whatsapp bareskins running group number. We ran off leaving her beaming and I'm sure she recounted the story back at work. Three days later an actual 29 year old police constable contacted me on whatsapp and asked for details and has now joined too and he joined us for the first time yesterday.

I'd just like to know if anyone else has been given the urge to do this and set up something similar since I wrote about doing this or would consider it in the future?

Richard:

What was the reaction of your classmates and of you having to be shirtless for PE back then? Was it ever a topic of conversation among you? How did you play team sports being shirtless all the time? Did you have any mixed PE lessons with girls present?

When I was at school the uniform rules were quite strictly enforced so the boys never did shirts and skins in PE, at least not technically. For team games they had reversible shirts that they could turn inside out depending on how they were assigned. The end result being that we still got a quick peek of all of them shirtless at some point. As I recall, it was something of a highlight for us. I remember when they got called to change their tops around, some of the shy boys used to try to do it as quick as possible or turn their backs whereas the more confidant ones seemed to enjoy the attention they got from us and took their sweet time taking their tops off and putting them on again. After the lesson, some even liked to pull their shirts off on the way back to the changing rooms so we got a nice view. I remember them getting yelled at on more than one occasion but did not otherwise get into any more trouble.

Comment by: Terry on 9th March 2024 at 23:13


Thank you, Terry - genuinely appreciate that. This was kind of the point I was making to Orson this morning. Whether poor or rich, like Earl Spencer's parents were, it always pays - in my view, to really play an active part in your child's school life. The fact is most people pack the kids off to school 40 weeks a year, buys them the books and stuff they need and that is their job done. It never occurs to them to question some of the methods and practices that go on while they are there each Monday to Friday. Therefore, it is not surprising that some teachers overstep the mark of being in loco parentis. A lot of teachers just love the power that they have, and, if unchecked , they will get more bold as time goes on, if there is no brake put on them. This truly repulsive sounding woman, and the equally revolting headmaster clearly had problems that one would hope would get them weeded out at the selection process today - and of course, women can harbour unsavoury desires just as much as men. But I bet there are still a few rotten apples in the barrel, just as we have sadly seen with the police in recent times.

I suspect the Earl, though he is obviously going to make some money out of this story has probably only recently got round to processing his feelings - perhaps as a result of writing about his life, and it is amazing how the past can come back to haunt you years later - in my case the feelings of anger really didn't surface till I got to my 40s.

That bit about the chalkboard rubber I mentioned to Orson - it happened to me when I was 15, doddery old Mr Burke, threw it at great force at the boy sitting next to me, who had been taking the gypsies, and caught me on the jaw (buggered up my embouchure for a few weeks). Not a word of apology from him or even an "are you alright?", as he would have lost face even more, but when I went home and mum saw the mark and asked how I got it I just said it had been meant for Tony, sitting next to me. "oh" she said. That was it. Luckily no harm done, no dental damage just a feeling of annoyance.

Is it any wonder they get away with behaviour that most grown adults would not even consider.

They would not get away with it if I were a parent,. but it just shows what schools - even "good" ones can get away with, if they are not questioned on their methods by parents. That is why I suggested to Mel, don't be afraid to ask questions.

Comment by: Orson on 9th March 2024 at 18:49



My point Orson, is that based on personal experience, if only parents had taken a more active interest in the old dump I went to, for example, some of the excesses that went on there, from two teachers in particular, and a general lack of interest from nearly all of them, things might have been better for the pupils. As it was, you just got sent off every day, and nobody queried the yelling and the bullying, and the marks from when you caught the chalkboard rubber on your face from the old relics. They were not accountable to anybody. That is the way they liked it, of course.

It is like some of the people on this forum - when they are not harrumphing about how "soft" kids are today, they just take the teachers words as gospel, just like our grandparents used to give God-like status to doctors - but even in that august profession there are the Dr. Shipmans. Parents should query everything and not just give teachers the benefit of the doubt. Like politicians they need to be held to account - they work for us, not the other way round, and they are given good salaries and long holidays for doing so.

I see no need to require a reason for requiring or wanting bare chested PE any more than you'd expect a reason for requiring white or blue shorts in the same PE class. It's just the PE kit. I think any school is perfectly entitled to ask those that attend to do so without having to defend its reason why.

The only problem I did have as a supply teacher (non PE) some 30 years ago was I would notice boys who had misbehaved in the school gym getting sent outside to stand in the corridor with their hands on their head once in a while, whilst not wearing the top or footwear and in the shorts alone by a certain member of the PE staff at the time. I didn't like that way of dealing with problems, it was designed to be deliberately demeaning I thought.

I saw 3 men running shirtless past my house when cutting the grass late this afternoon. I asked why and they said they were training for the London Marathon, but not why they were shirtless! Better luck next time if I see them again. They were not exactly young either, one looked 60, the others 40's.

There is a quite disturbing front page on tomorrow's Mail On Sunday about Princess Diana's brother Earl Spencer being abused by a FEMALE matron at school when just 11 who he describes as a "voracious paedophile" who preyed on young boys in dormitories at his boarding school Maidwell Hall.

Earl Spencer is now almost 60 and would have been 11 back in 1975.

When I read this and the headline I immediately thought about you Alan, even though there is much you say that I am not in agreement with at times, but I hope it makes at least some of your detractors just pause for thought. But of course in this case we are talking about a woman here, and that is a really big taboo isn't it.

But the male headmaster is also mentioned. There is a horrible line in this article that says - "John Porch, the 'terrifying and sadistic' headteacher of the exclusive prep school, inflicted brutal beatings, seemingly gaining sexual pleasure from the violence."

I think Earl Spencer is probably a very credible witness and the only shame is that he took so long to say this. Many people will probably ask, why now, but I suppose why anytime?

Can you imagine being the parent of any boy who went through this school, hearing this and now wondering about your own son. Here we are again, looking straight into some kind of dark period that reigned in the 1970's and 80's like so many others have previously mentioned in relation to basic treatment at school.

But I do not agree that he should have waited until he had a memoir out to make money with before revealing this information. That is very cynical, and if it was so serious why wait for a book, it should have been said years ago.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13176925/How-sexually-abused-just-11-school-matron-Dianas-brother-EARL-SPENCER-reveals-devastating-memoir-says-trauma-left-life-long-toll.html

My answer to you Mel as a child who spent many a time in a school PE lesson in just my shorts is don't worry about it at all. With any group of people you are going to get a few who are not so confident or shy about things, and school is no different. It's normal.

I myself NEVER wore a top in the school gym for PE in the mid to late 70s from the day I arrived until fifth form broke up for exams, and whoever took us it was the same, and I must have had about 6 to 8 different male PE teachers during my time at Filton High in Gloucestershire that I was at.

I was thinking about Nathan's coin vote the other day and wondering whether I would have been a head or tails, shirt or no shirt child if I had been given that chance. If it had been taken after doing PE in my bare chest for quite a while I think I'd have voted in favour but it could well have been different if I had been allowed a vote right at the start before doing any PE at all and just imagining it.

Doing is always better than thinking about things.

I had a quite unsympathetic PE teacher when at school, see my post on 26th Jan about that, and spent my time in the gym shirtless, and climbing this that and the other, but I do still find your own reaction today just a little bit OTT Alan.

Comment by: A Yorkshiredad on 9th March 2024 at 11:04
"Lastly I ask a favour. Last post I included a link to a video. Please do not mention the schools name on this forum, The video and others available on YouTube are there to give you a feeling of the school being discussed but not to criticise. Thank you."


I'll respect what you have said here but wonder why you have said this. If this is the school I am thinking of, it's one that has previously been named on here not so long ago and had a sports day video clip link shown isn't it. If you do not wish anything to be identified then why place a link in the first place that identifies it for anyone who accesses it. Do you actually work at this school?

I respect your wish and have been finding your comments quite interesting to say the least.

Interesting thread.

In the late 1980s my only child was of school age and went through a period almost immediately after starting his new upper school of asking me or his mother to write letters to the teacher to excuse him from PE. We always refused to do so because there was no reason to write anything. It must have gone on for three months, weekly. We then discovered he had successfully written a fake note that had been accepted and sat a lesson out, the school had rung to verify it later in the day but we kept quiet and never told him we knew. Later we found out he was just leaving all his PE kit at home so he couldn't do it at all when he had to go outside. We kept asking what the actual problem was and got the same reply, nothing, just don't like it. Which was surprising because as a kid he was always active and out doing things.

Eventually we found out that the reason he disliked PE was not even the PE at all, it was having to shower and he wanted to avoid that at all costs but couldn't if he did PE. When he admitted this he asked if we could write a note again about that, but we both refused. I then spoke to two PE teachers at the school in person at the end of a school day when I was invited in and they expressed complete astonishment that this was his reason and told me that he'd given not the slightest clue that showering at school was an issue and he'd been doing so when asked to without any hint of complaint when he actually did PE.

We had this for about three months and then it all just stopped overnight and there were never any problems again and I got increasingly positive feedback about his PE achievements thereafter. I think some eleven and twelves just get a big shock with the school change, or did so back then, and initially find it hard to cope with and some kick back against it in the only way they feel they can before finally coming to terms with how things are done.

A Yorkshiredad, he only does one PE lesson each week and they alternate between going outdoors and staying inside, so the school gym only comes around every fortnight like that anyway according to the school timetable I have been given each year. Without knowing the name of the school you are referring to I cannot answer your question but I know nothing of such a thing happening so probably not.

At face value I am not concerned about the actual doing of PE in a bare chest, as long as all the others are also and the rule is applied evenly. I was quite surprised when I first discovered it was how they did PE, more that I didn't know beforehand than anything else. If he had maintained his early worries about it I might have become more concerned but that has not happened and I would not see it as relevant or appropriate for me to intervene in any way at all at this stage of things. I have no idea if there is an actual method reason for this way of doing things, such as what you suggest about loose clothing, that might be something I could ask directly next time I have a parent/teacher evening in the coming months.

I would say that as long as you keep parents informed properly that would be a good start, and putting the feelers out about what the actual youngsters think about such things as bare chested PE is also not a bad idea either, and being open and explaining why things are done a certain way like this is helpful. I don't think it should be banned or anything like that, I also think that would be an extreme over reaction as much as you described the reaction to the tangled kit.

I got some reassurance from seeing the results of the PE teacher class here last week which suggested the vast majority were left unconcerned by this type of PE kit decision, so obviously a lot of boys like this too. My own son has been on holidays in the past recent summers and taken his top off on those with us, he looks absolutely fine, just rarely when back home does he do so, but he is not completely averse to doing so, just in certain situations I think or like many teenagers doesn't really like being told to do things he's not really wanting to do.