Burnley Grammar School

Comment by: Robbie on 5th March 2024 at 15:28


It is not my affair what Chris gets up to Robbie. Please don't try to put words into my mouth.

I'm scratching my head here trying to work out what the actual point of the exchange here is between Alan and Tim. I've read the posts through twice and still don't get it.

It doesn't make sense to me, does it to anyone else?

@ Alan - 04.08

Alan - you made a comment :
"Nobody bothered to see a point I made last week, and that is, adults, who are exercising in two gyms nearby choose to wear a top when exercising - the ratio of shirted versus unshirted is the opposite of Nathan's straw poll. You see very few men opting for the shirtless look there. Both buildings have glass facias opening on to the street. There, of course they have no "sir" telling them what to do, and they are there of their own volition."

Sarah replied:
"They may not have "Sir" telling them what to wear, but they do have gym dress-codes to contend with, and in my experience, most gyms require men to wear tops", to which I agreed.

Your reply: "To answer both yourself and Sarah, regulations or no, a few men do choose to display themselves without shirts, but these, I suspect are exhibitionists, usually of the weight lifting variety" - I find very strange because in the better part of forty years as a gym 'regular', I can't recall anyone behaving on the gym as they shouldn't. I don't 'pump iron' nowadays but I do find the comment about weightlifters rather insulting.

Later you say: "Both buildings have glass facias opening on to the street" - fine, OK, fine - if you say so thats it - no problems. All I'm saying is that my gym had a major refurbishment last year and that the big glass windows were taken out & replaced by darkened material. There were no bus stops close by, and the building was perhaps forty odd feet from a pavement - possibly just a matter of privacy?

Next time you're in London, walk over Hungerford Bridge (on the downstream side) from the South Bank. Don't leave when you reach the North side - walk on and before you enter Charing Cross station you'll find a large gym on the left hand side (unless its closed) - the windows are (or were) frosted - presumably for privacy.

And thats it ...

In what way has anything Tim said here been construed as offensive exactly? I think he is one of the most polite forum members here isn't he. Your hypersensitivity is remarkable Alan, are you even more sensitive now you are older than you were at school a few years ago? It's not hard to see why you found PE troubling with your sensitive nature is it.

Mind you, I wasn't even bothered by Damon and I see Tim has rebuked him!

It's amazing to think that just reading this history thread where many men, and a few women, who were mostly last at school well over 30 years ago and are speaking about their PE lessons has actually made a modern day PE teacher question what he is doing and ask questions himself. I don't think you would be doing what you say otherwise would you Nathan?

The result you got with the heads/tails choice looks like a very positive vindication of your classes there and it's hard to see how that was anything other than the authentic collective voice of those two classes.

You said the following Alan,

'a few men do choose to display themselves without shirts, but these, I suspect are exhibitionists'


Reading this made me wonder if you also think that men like Craig on here who have set up a bareskins running group are also exhibitionists and those that have chosen to join him in that pursuit are also?

If you've got a group of regular looking men hanging out like that and doing something they are enjoying in like minded fashion I don't think exhibitionism comes into it at all. I think he said that some were less confident and it had helped with mindfulness didn't he, and it has nothing to do with wanting to actually be noticed.


I think Nathan's vote is a great idea insofar as it means he is clearly a listening kind of teacher and that was not always the case when I was at school when it was just a case of doing something and not answering back about things that might be of concern, on any subject, or sometimes feeling you couldn't say something because the teacher had a bit of a poor reputation.

If a vote is taken and is overwhelming I think it should be respected either way it goes, even if that means there are a few unhappy on the losing side, such as in this case if it meant skins carrying on. There can be no claim of unfairness if the actual classes have expressed a decisive opinion to be alright with a shirtless PE lesson if asked to.

I think being able to do some shirtless PE in school is broadly speaking a reasonable idea and has even helped out some self conscious boys in the past realise they are fine doing so and made them overcome fears they might have had beforehand.

"Comment by: TimH on 4th March 2024 at 19:26
Just to follow-up Sarah's 17.46 post in response to Alan.

"Sarah - you just beat me to it! I'm not sure of the exact wording of the regulations at my gym but its pretty implicit that 'tops' & 'bottoms' must be worn. We've had no problems with this, except when some people decided to use the 'wet area' in their underwear, which was frowned upon.


During a recent refurbishment the original windows were removed and replaced by ones which prevent people outside from gawping at members whilst they exercise. This seems to be a fairly common policy now."

Before I go further, Tim, I don't know if you were trying to be deliberately offensive, but in reference to that final paragraph - BOTH gyms I have in mind have bus stops directly outside and opposite their premises . As I don't drive, I have to use public transport from time to time. If you wish to contact me privately I will give you the names and addresses of both establishments so you can check on Google street maps, to prove I am telling the truth. I don't go around "gawping" as you so inelegantly put it, any more than I post bits of grainy old film eavesdropping on school PE lessons of the past, or wishing the past could come back so that kids could be treated as if they were national servicemen, in wartime, or passing imaginary playing fields in winter.

To answer both yourself and Sarah, regulations or no, a few men do choose to display themselves without shirts, but these, I suspect are exhibitionists, usually of the weight lifting variety. But you both raise an interesting point: if rules are written to encourage modesty for adults, why are kids not circumscribed by the same rules?. What is the difference between say, a 16 year old at school and a 17 year old who has left school?. One could be forced to remove their shirt, whereas the other would be forced to keep it on. The hypocrisy of this country can be jaw-dropping at times.



Comment by: Nathan Hind on 4th March 2024 at 23:43


I hope you would consider using your poll to include both the youngest and oldest of your pupils, as I strongly suspect the votes would be somewhat different. The youngest will have come from schools where the policies of most junior schools are more relaxed, and the oldest ones will (I hope) have developed minds of their own and be less enamoured of authority.

Where showers are concerned - personally I am pro shower (we only had a bath at home when I was a kid and I always slightly disliked the feeling you were washing in your own dirt, and as I have said before, I perspire very easily), but of course, deodorants are freely available and if somebody wishes not to shower, I don't see that as too much of a problem, but that might be a step too far for a staid school. I do feel, however, very strongly, that the showering arrangements should be far less intrusive than they were at my school.

Comment by: Matthew S on 4th March 2024 at 22:20
Just in case it should be of any interest, here is old footage of a PE class from 1981, also from the Huntley Archives site: https://www.huntleyarchives.com/preview.asp?image=1041996



The school looks to be younger than even primary there, top year infants maybe, around seven or eight. They're all now about fifty.

But I think there is a massive difference between that age doing PE like that and doing so at the older ages, even late primary, and of course secondary ages. Few children that age here are going to feel concerned. Many of the issues that get spoken about with shirtless PE come along a lot later. I know, been there done it. I wasn't bothered doing PE like that at the ages there, became very different by twelve for me. I did shirtless PE at some stage in all three schools I attended through from the late sixties until the year of your clip when I left, basically I was a 1970's schoolboy and a child of that era was expected to do these things without complaint at age five or fifteen.

Damon.

I don't mind your analogy in the least and can assure you my own vote was as authentic as the results of the next UK election are going to be, whatever the outcome. Hope that helps.

I am considering what you suggested actually, and have presented a case to my colleague on that, so watch this space. The points raised are fair.

On your final line, mandated v voluntary, as I've only worked in a school for 9 years where showering is required I cannot vouch for how things turn out in others where such things are non-mandated but the point is well made.

I was asked to go bare chested when the class does. I would be more than happy to do so but it is not encouraged for staff to do so. Yes, I know that sounds dreadfully hypocritical. Nothing has been written down about this, so I am keen to seek clarification on this one for my own benefit.

Just in case it should be of any interest, here is old footage of a PE class from 1981, also from the Huntley Archives site: https://www.huntleyarchives.com/preview.asp?image=1041996

A little later than the films "A Yorkshire Dad" posted links to on 1st March.

Just to follow-up Sarah's 17.46 post in response to Alan.

Sarah - you just beat me to it! I'm not sure of the exact wording of the regulations at my gym but its pretty implicit that 'tops' & 'bottoms' must be worn. We've had no problems with this, except when some people decided to use the 'wet area' in their underwear, which was frowned upon.

During a recent refurbishment the original windows were removed and replaced by ones which prevent people outside from gawping at members whilst they exercise. This seems to be a fairly common policy now.

Alan said

"Nobody bothered to see a point I made last week, and that is, adults, who are exercising in two gyms nearby choose to wear a top when exercising - the ratio of shirted versus unshirted is the opposite of Nathan's straw poll. You see very few men opting for the shirtless look there. Both buildings have glass facias opening on to the street. There, of course they have no "sir" telling them what to do, and they are there of their own volition."

They may not have "Sir" telling them what to wear, but they do have gym dress-codes to contend with, and in my experience, most gyms require men to wear tops.

Damon - your post is out of order - please desist,

Sad to say, I wondered how long it would be before the naysayers appeared.

T

Comment by: Dave on 3rd March 2024 at 19:42

"I think Nathan is a great teacher. Well with all the respect I think that voting is not the best idea. Someone posted some days ago that it has a little bit of a message that there is something wrong being shirtless for PE. There is no swimming teacher who ask the boys the question: "do you find correct being barechested for swimming lessons"? I think it is the same beacause if we think it over there is no real purpose of shirts in PE. T-shirts are getting in a way especially in gymnastics. Vests are better allowing a great freedom of movement but they are almost the same as barechested. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I really don't see what the problem is with doing intense workout without shirts."

Well, one difference is that swimming makes you wet, and the practice of wearing swimwear is universal. It is, however, hard to explain to a lad why a school literally down the road from their school are allowed to exercise in tee or polo shirts, while they are not. It is all down to the whim of their teacher.

Nobody bothered to see a point I made last week, and that is, adults, who are exercising in two gyms nearby choose to wear a top when exercising - the ratio of shirted versus unshirted is the opposite of Nathan's straw poll. You see very few men opting for the shirtless look there. Both buildings have glass facias opening on to the street. There, of course they have no "sir" telling them what to do, and they are there of their own volition.

It would be interesting if Nathan conducted his experimental vote with the under 13s and the over 14s - he might get a very different set of results.

It's 2024 and yet we are still discussing whether boys should return to the practices of the 1950s-1990s when education is supposed to be about the world today - not yesterday. Even a vest (singlet) makes you feel literally less exposed. which will help lads who are less confident. I still don't understand, frankly, why so many grown men want to see lads running around with no top on, and get so evangelistic about it - could it be they feel that just because we had to undergo that treatment, they should have to as well?.

Comment by: Dave on 3rd March 2024 at 22:09
Damon please leave out anything compared to a war criminal. Things discussed here have nothing to do with that. Very strange image associaton.Thanks.


Oh come on Dave. It was a perfectly acceptable analogy, no more, no less than that and I think Damon made quite it well actually to draw attention to how votes can sometimes not be all they seem. Similar to what was made earlier by Owen on the nature of how you ask the question to get the answer.

I don't agree with Damon's suspicions. Those numbers are plausible I'm sure, but that was just two classes. I do think if you want to do votes like that you should do them in a properly controlled manner and involve everyone, not just a couple of classes. If you are going to do it to those two groups of Year 8 and 9 then why should the others not be allowed a say.

If you do that, it should actually have meaning, therefore everyone agrees to abide by whatever the outcome is, even if that means a change in PE policy, which obviously you would have to agree with staff ahead of time.

I hope that's a constructive piece of advice being given, if you are going down this way of teaching and listening. It would not be my way to do things. As I said last week (27 Feb) when you take a lesson and you tell others to be bare chested in it, do so yourself, and just hang the whistle around your neck and nothing more.

Damon please leave out anything compared to a war criminal. Things discussed here have nothing to do with that. Very strange image associaton.Thanks.

You wouldn't be having a little North Korean style, and soon to be Putin Russia style voting white lie there with your figures would you Nathan, in order to shore up your position?

Give all your classes a shoe box vote and let's see what you come back with after that!

On the showers, as was mentioned in a previous comment today, I'd just add this. Why is it that when showering at school is merely a voluntary arrangement most pupils don't bother and skip them, and it's only mandatory that gets them doing it?

Nathan, apologies if you've answered this before. What, generally is the thinking behind whether a lesson is shirtless or not? In my day it was mainly to tell teams apart, which made sense (I gather that these days they tend to keep their shirts on and have a coloured bib to wear).

I don't want to debate, I'm just interested in whether there is a purpose or just "character building"?

I think Nathan is a great teacher. Well with all the respect I think that voting is not the best idea. Someone posted some days ago that it has a little bit of a message that there is something wrong being shirtless for PE. There is no swimming teacher who ask the boys the question: "do you find correct being barechested for swimming lessons"? I think it is the same beacause if we think it over there is no real purpose of shirts in PE. T-shirts are getting in a way especially in gymnastics. Vests are better allowing a great freedom of movement but they are almost the same as barechested. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I really don't see what the problem is with doing intense workout without shirts.

The way you ask a question is very important in getting an accurate answer.

You Nathan asked - "Is being told to do PE in a bare chest acceptable to you? Heads for yes, tails for no."

At face value that sounds fair enough and straight enough, but is it?

That's why there are often so many discussions on how referendum questions are posed, and also why polling companies that get employed by corporations often ask questions in a way to elicit the response wanted.

There are many other ways to frame this question that could possibly elicit a different response.

How about you try the compulsory showers question (you still do this I believe) on them while you're at it. Now that would be a real eye opener on modesty issues nowadays wouldn't it.

My memory is generally good, but I can't remember the detail of PE without tshirts like some can.

I actually don't know how I'd have voted in Nathan's poll. Probably against. I got on with it and wasn't overly bothered, but wasn't actually eager.

As I said before, I hated being teased for certain body features - or even them just being noticed and commented in. A bit sensitive. Hardly the end of the world looking back.

Comment by: Neil on 3rd March 2024 at 12:47
Comment by: Alan on 3rd March 2024 at 04:02


I am planning to repeat the question with the same two classes on Thursday and Friday, using an old used training shoe box with a slit in the top and some slips of paper placed through it just to see if the result comes out exactly the same under those 'stricter' conditions. On leaving they will be asked just to grab a felt tip and probably place a number one or two for the choice, or something like that, with nobody being able to look over anyone's shoulder at what they write. The coin method was secret enough may I add.

Whether I would widen it up to others remains to be seen, although I take your point about sample sizes Neil and agree I would find the answers genuinely useful. Based on what I have discovered with the coin method it would seem unlikely that other classes would have a very dramatic difference I would suggest.

I do agree with you Alan on the memory issue. Some people have very good retaining memories. That is evident in teaching, even in PE, never mind the academic subjects with more detail about them.

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 3rd March 2024 at 00:01

An interesting result there Nathan. I think if you were to do that with all your years and classes it would be even more interesting and have the authority of a far bigger sample size. The question you asked seemed quite fair and to the point. If I'd had to guess the result out of 26 I would have made an estimate of at least 20/6 maybe, so the result you got does not surprise me. I would not have been very surprised to see 26/0 actually.

I suppose this has given you confidence to carry on.

Comment by: Lance on 2nd March 2024 at 14:46
(Comment by: TimH on 2nd March 2024 at 11:35)


"I do wonder if some of the angst that is mentioned here comes from some sort of deep memory that only lasted a second or two and which we thought nothing of at the time, but which comes back to 'haunt' (or 'taunt') us."

Personally I think the fact is some of us have better (i.e. we retain memories) sharper than others. One memory bank is larger, if you will, than anothers. Some people find it hard to remember, for example, what they were doing last Sunday, (unless it was something unusual or unforgettable) whereas others can remember details of random Sundays going back years. An animal who has been ill-treated, for instance, retains that memory for years afterwards, even though the abuse might have "only" happened for weeks or months, and if it finds itself in the same situation will cower. Ask any animal charity, about retained memory whether it is a Chihuahua or a Great Dane, they recall the events years later, unfortunately. I knew somebody who had a rescue dog, for example, and though he lived for 15 years after being rescued he still cowered each time the newspaper was taken out of the letterbox,

I can actually remember making terrible gaffes when playing, for example, even if it was a rehearsal, you have to forget it at the time but you store it in your memory bank, and even when you go back to the tune, months later, I would remember exactly where I made the goof the last time. As for school, remembering that I was in contact with one of our two weird teachers twice a week, three times in one case and four times the other, and dreaded every moment of it, that wasn't a case of "a second or two". It was for the seven hours a week, and that is forty years ago now. These are genuine memories - always concerned about the temper blow-ups throughout the lesson, the threats of objects being thrown about, and the punishments one of the two dished out. You already know about the concerns with the other individual.


Comment by: Nathan Hind on 3rd March 2024 at 00:01

It might be worth repeating that experiment with the 14-16 year olds, if you are content the method you used was foolproof, Nathan. But surely boy B would have seen which way boy A placed his coin?. Not exactly a secret ballot as we recognize the concept, was it?

It might just be that the pupils thought it was a pusillanimous exercise, since if they voted against the status quo nothing would be done. It reminds me of the vote the Irish had some years ago about the membership of the EU - a majority voted against membership, so the Irish government arranged a second vote and got the result THEY wanted.

Much to my surprise my colleague at work had no objections to a little testing out of feelings on PE so I thought I would give it a quick go. No ballot boxes were involved, no pens, no crosses on bits of paper, and I decided to try this with just two classes and that will be as far as it goes for now.

I took two separate classes, a normal class of Year 8's and another Year 9's and after PE finished for them on Thursday for the Year 8's and Friday for the Year 9's, I gave each class, both comprised of the same amount of 26 boys each and asked them to pick up a 10p piece from a banking bag I had brought with me on those two days. Both lessons were in the gym and one was in morning, the other afternoon.

The boys were asked to place a coin at a random place onto a bench along the far side of gym and return across to the group. It took a few seconds each. I'd explained I wished to know how they viewed PE, and asked for heads if they found shirtless PE okay and tails if they found it not okay.

I then walked up to the bench and in full view of everyone checked out the heads and tails that had been left along the bench. Nobody could tell who had placed which coin might I add.

Question as I asked - Is being told to do PE in a bare chest acceptable to you? Heads for yes, tails for no.

I also gave an abstain option, which was taken up by nobody at all. So there was a positive answer one way or the other from everyone, two classes of 26 each.

Year 8's (age 12 & 13) - Heads 23 Tails 3

Year 9's (age 13 & 14) - Heads 24 Tails 2


I would just like to let that result above sink in and speak for itself.

I am not only muslim but gay but I have had a western upbringing. I am 47 years old and have never been able to reveal this to those in my life, nobody, incase my family discovered this.

I had no special opting out on account of my religion in school. I remember when I was 14 or 15 slowly realising I liked the same sex boys around me more than just as friends, and that I liked looking at them as other boys looked at girls. This made me very unhappy and I tried to fight it for a long time and finally gave up trying in my mid 20's. My awakening actually placed an extra burden on me in PE in situations like showering with others and not wearing shirts. There was still a lot of homophobia about even in 1990 and I felt scared at times on account of my religion, my skin colour and sexuality which I knew would never be accepted by my family.

I think a thought might be considered for the many who were at school and went through the showering and shirtless system who were like me.

It was good to get an answer to my question about Dave's 'freedom fighter' email. Thanks.

Bill, you had a very generous reaction to being checked out on your story by Ross there on the shirtless school runners. I thought you might take umbrage.

Regards Bev and other recent female posts, I can understand why boys would be shy or nervy in front of girls if made to go shirtless with them in gym but can't really understand why many feel that way among the other boys. Someone mentioned boys from different backgrounds and affluence, and I think shirtless does act as a great leveller, just like actual uniform is meant to do.

Alan, you made a good point about some of those chavvy clothes with SuperDry emblazoned all over them costing a small fortune nowadays. A kid with one of those would feel superior to one in a plain unbranded top or something like Tu from Sainsbury's. Bare chests get rid of that entirely and seem the easiest option to me.

Lance - Not unreasonable for a PE teacher to show willing and go shirtless once in a while. I was always told that if I ate my greens I'd grow hairs on my chest. I love my greens and always ate the lot willingly, very few hairs on my chest worth noticing really. So I can bust that myth right here and now. Chest hair is out of fashion nowadays isn't it with male grooming taking hold.

Comment by: TimH on 2nd March 2024 at 11:35
I do wonder if some of the angst that is mentioned here comes from some sort of deep memory that only lasted a second or two and which we thought nothing of at the time, but which comes back to 'haunt' (or 'taunt') us.

I haven't looked fully at the latest posts but I think someone said something on the lines that the 'problem' with 'skins' wasn't so much being shirtless but the actual act of being told to go shirtless and taking your shirt off - an interesting comment.




Haven't most of us got fleeting brief memories of some things that happened to us at school that we didn't like that we might think about from time to time?

On the second point here, it wasn't me that made such a comment but it sounds similarish to my own thinking. School had a perfectly well set out PE kit but I used to really dislike it when ordered to remove tops and prance about shirtless, especially being on the wrong side of team splits as the skin in particular. I always thought showers at school should have been a personal choice. My opinion was that only my parents or the doctor/nurse for medical reasons should have the right to tell me to remove clothing like that, not a schoolteacher. But I kept those thoughts well hidden to myself and just got on with it and nobody would ever have really guessed.

Somebody has told Nathan that if he wants to do any further shirtless PE then he should do so with his class. That's a good idea. I did have one PE teacher myself who often took his top off in some PE randomly. I remember he had a very hairy chest!

@Neil - 01/03/2024 - 22.51

Neil - a combination of both - basically 'Thanks' for writing on here and expressing their opinions, in what has become a male orientated group.

A few weeks back I expressed the opinion that this group was 'broken' and I feel it has a long way to go before it returns to a chatty 'All are welcome' format. In recent months I have made myself unpopular in a group (not on the www) that has just become the same sterile group of ABC1s of a certain age, all repeating themselves and not welcoming new (or younger) people - unfortunately I see elements of the same here.

'Nuff said ...

Comment by: Bernard on 2nd March 2024 at 00:09
Mickey Grant - I think part of the problem with the remarks you, and probably others including myself, find offensive is a confusion over terminology. When reference is made to a homosexual or gay teacher I think (hope) this should mean a paedophile teacher. A homosexual male teacher should be no more threat to young boys that a straight male teacher is to young girls. It is the paedophile tendencies which are abhorrent and a danger to children of whichever sex is involved.



THIS ABOVE^^

Exactly Bernard. Said perfectly. This is the continuing mistake that Alan has been making in his posts, to tar a very large minority with a very unpleasant insinuation, even if that is not his intention. To also suggest that certain professions should be off limits to gay people is quite strange in this day and age.

I'm straight by the way but I found John's assessment quite persuasive in the middle of his comment yesterday.