Burnley Grammar School

A couple of intense stories here.

Going by what Christine said it looks to me like there might have been an improvement of sort in schools more generally after Ofsted was set up in the mid 90s when she said it was formed. Is it any coincidence that the couple of decades before that just happen to be the 1970s and 1980s when a lot of people at school in those days feel things were out of control in some way and the treatment lacking.

I think my own comprehensive state school in those days was a law unto itself where almost anything seemed to go and few rules applied, or if they were then they were broken week in week out. Through the late 70s when I was at a rather uninspiring school I often saw male men=bers of the class getting waht can only be called a battering by quite a large number of teachers from any subject you care to name almost. It always seemed to be men who looked about 40 that did this, who were often badly dressed but expected us lot to look immaculate with our top buttons done up. Mine was undone once and my tie a bit loose and a teacher nearly strangled me, I actually choked a bit.

I also saw someone running along a corridor once and a teacher actually stuck his leg out and sent him tripping and flying through the air, sliding along the floor and all his books scattering, then getting pulled up by the collar and pinned against a wall.

As we got older in comprehenive school we actually got treated worse, not better. So by the time I was 14 or 15 there was never a class that went by that didn't seem to descend into bad temper by a teacher at some point over something completely trivial that wasn't worth the hot air. I was misheard calling the girls PE teacher a bitch once under my breath when she asked me to put some gym stuff away from a girls lesson after I'd just finished our boys class, separately. She said she heard me say it and told me she was going to report me to my own PE teachers. I'd actually said the word 'bench' not bitch as that was what she wanted moved and she obviously saw this strapping shirtless 15 year old lad with his muscles and thought, he'll do nicely for the task. She didn't believe me when I said I hadn't sworn though. I was in the changing room and was in the showers and above the sound of loud running water heard my surname shouted out a couple of times and got out to see what they wanted, the girls teacher had reported I'd sworn at her and called her a bitch. I couldn't believe she did that. I hadn't sworn at her, it was a misheard misunderstanding of an innocent word. But anyway, I was dripping wet, no clothes, no chance to grab my towel and this teacher grabs me in an actual headlock and gets me bent double and holds me in that position while the other teacher took a gym plimsoll off his foot and literally thrashed the life out of my backside what must have been at least six times straight at my arse in full view of everyone. There was real anger in that thrashing, my skin actually bruised. That felt barely legal even in those days to me. I thought it was over after that but I also got an afterschool detention the following day, a letter home to say why and a trip to the head's office the next day where he strapped my hands too. So I got punished THREE TIMES for one small misheard word. Even if I'd called her a bitch that was a bit much don't you think. They might have killed me on the spot if I'd gone the full F word or worse.

It was really sore for me to sit down for a day or two, I even showed my dad the teachers handywork on me. He was appalled by it but just told me to keep out of their way and not wind them up again in future. How do you keep out the way of teachers in school. I was no softy in school when I was 15 and could handle myself, seemed to be simialr size to the teachers, probably why two had to grab me, but that episode knocked the stuffing out of me for ages and I did find it so hard not to completely cry in front of friends, not because of the pain inflicted but because of the total humiliation and the injustcie of being falsely accused of something I hadn't said and not being heard, just given an immediate thrashing before I got a chance to say my piece to defend myself.

I never held many teachers at my comprehensive school in high regard because they refused to hold us with any at all. As a friend once said to me about our teachers, a core group of them used to use the boys as some kind of anti-stress punchbags to relieve their own frustrations. He was right. Boys in mid 70s comprehensives could be treated like they were a piece of dirt, and not only that but my PE teacher once told a number of lads they would make nothing of their lives, what did they ever know, condemning us at 15 for life like that, and nearly always wrong too.

Comment by: Stuart T on 30th November 2024 at 23:59

Stuart, your story is one of the reasons I have always been against this sort of locker room mentality enjoyed by so many schools. It is bad enough when it is a school policy, but it is even worse if it is left to the whims of individual teachers. I was the opposite to you, in that I was very undersized - in all departments - and, like you, I had a teacher who loved to embarrass and gave encouragement to other pupils to do so. four years of absolute hell.

Those sorts of teachers - and I bet there still are some - are the lowest of the low, but even in the 1970s the most ignorant amongst them must have known the damage they were causing, and if they didn't, more enlightened teachers, or the school psychologist service should have made them aware that what they were doing was wrong.

One of my customers has the misfortune to have an office overlooking the outside area of a brand new school - this is a primary school, and they play great store in physical activities, and he tells me that you can always hear some loud-mouthed PE teacher bawling "encouragement" to the pupils. They can't be seen, but they most certainly can be heard. If that is how they are treating younger kids, God knows how they will treat them when they go into secondary education. They remind me of TV sports commentators, getting worked up and excited to levels that defy reality - all probably an act, but they need to be told to tone it down. Clearly if you went into the RAF you were much more fit than your school idiots thought you were.

Comment by: Mark on 30th November 2024 at 21:26



I totally agree with you and take your point, Mark. The only problem is, unless every lad agreed to do it, it wouldn't be effective - most PE teachers are bone-headed and they would "shame" or bully boys who did it, into conforming to their desires . You always get a few goody-goods who do exactly what they are told, even if they don't agree with it or find it uncomfortable. Schoolboys are a bit like politicians in that regard.



Comment by: Frank on 30th November 2024 at 20:44



I'd be interested to know what decade your experiences happened, Frank. Since the 1990s it has been illegal to use physical punishment on school pupils, so if it were after that time he committed a criminal offence, but since you incurred an injury if it wasn't too ling before the 90s, he might be bought to book retrospectively. We have seen in recent years teachers from even the 60s and 7os convicted of criminal offences.

The problem is, I think, that far too many adults review schooldays through rose coloured glasses - they forget the really bad times and bad teachers, the aggressions, the inadequate teachers and facilities - and the fact that schoolboys (and girls I assume) are really vile to each other and every difference is pounced upon - hair colour even, physical size, one or two on here have said they felt uncomfortable because they were circumcised (one lad in my own class had that experience with almost constant taunting), so being homosexual would be the pinnacle of derision. There really should be more safeguards, including a right to privacy.

I often wonder - now we have people forced to stay on at school well beyond childhood, and some actually come out while at school - how they are treated by fellow pupils and teachers. I think, even now, with many schools having metal detectors at school entrances, because of the number of pupils who carry knives, I would be very circumspect in declaring sexuality at school.

I don't think it works like that Mark I'm afraid, but good luck trying I suppose. Frank your comment got to me fired up enough to share something with you, I don't know when you went to school but I switched from the small primary to the much bigger nearby secondary school in the early seventies.

I should say right now I was one of those rare overweight kids at the time, not due to overeating but because of a hyperthyroidism condition that was left untreated too long at the time. I was very podgy and received all the typical names you might care to think of. PE lessons in our primary school when I first became quite big for a young boy were a nightmare to me but the teachers in school were very kind and allowed me to wear a baggy large tea-shirt rather than a slim one or vest so that my bigger body shape was not as obvious and this made me more happy. I was obviously not as agile as some of the slim kids but could take part and manage most things with added effort. The teachers knew this and praised me. I have nothing but good things to say about primary school teahcers even if some of the others my age used names behind their backs.

Rolling on to secondary school in the early seventies and I tried everything to look less big before I got there but nothing worked. I can't remember what my weight was, but think I was more than an adult of average height or something even at eleven, possibly twelve stone when I was only maybe 5"1' or thereabout. Very big for a kid anyway. I feared going to the secondary school because I knew what might be in store and wasn't wrong about it and it was actually far worse. The teachers were all against me too.

When I started I remember how I'd sometimes cry to myself quietly in bed at night hoping my parents couldn't hear me, just because I was so unhappy at the thought of another PE lesson ahead when I got up in the morning. My teachers were downright cruel and sided with those who made fun of my size. Unlike in primary they would not let me wear a baggy tea-shirt in the school gym or outside and I was forced to do the PE there with a bare body like other far slimmer or average looking boys which was absolutely horrific for me. Not only would I receive name calling and abuse from the other kids but I got it from the teachers too, and when the other kids saw them doing this they thought it gave them the right and it was okay to make my life a right misery. At the secondary school they used to laugh at me if I struggled. I could barely get two feet off the ground climbing a rope, and was called completely useless. One day a PE teacher brought one of those flimsy tape measures out of his pocket and thought it would be fun to wrap it around my tummy and tell the class how big I was compared to the rest of them. I'm unsure what I was, I think he said I was 10 inches bigger around the waist than others, they were something like 28 inches and I was 38 inches, something like that anyway. Bear in mind I'm a decent enough intelligent kid at the time who just happened to be overweight, that's all. I didn't skip classes, I didn't mouth off, I tried to do my best and soak up all the abuse and negativity about what I looked like and the dreadful sensation of being forced to commit to doing PE with my body all out to be made fun of.

In the end I became so ashamed of my body and what I looked like that I did start to miss a few lessons though, mostly because of the showering which they forced me to do and where I was the butt of so much attention and teasing about my size, and then the size of my bits compared to my tummy and all that. My size seemed to give other boys permission to actually touch me like I was some kind of freak show and not a real human being, none of the other boys would have dared touch each other. A few boys actually grabbed hold of my stomach in the showers and pinched it and even felt like they could physically pinch my balls too. That kind of thing was unheard of with anybody else. Meanwhile the teachers ignored it all or even egged some of it on. I was even clouted over the head one day in PE by a teacher for complaining about such behaviour. It was like an overweight schoolboy a bit different in shape and size repulsed them. I used to cry comparing my old school to these unsympathetic bastards.

When I was about 14 I went to the GP about my weight and they diagnosed hyperthyroidism and gave me treatment. Within a year my weight had lessened and so had my size and tummy. But I still received the abusive nonsense for ages about my parents starving me of food, untrue. School PE in the secondary had laid me right open for all this abuse, the fact I must have been overweight so young because I was an overfed overindulged ill disciplined glutton and not because of a legit medical condition. Forcing boys my size at the time to shower witht he others with no clothes on at all was a school equivalent of water torture to me. I'm not saying that some of these things should not have happend or I should have been treated differently on account of my size but I am saying that the way I was treated should have been very different but I was allowed to feel almost worthless and unpleasant to look at and quite useless.

Schooldays are like another lifetime completely when I think of them. I have not been a particularly overweight adult and in my younger years I joined the RAF as a support technician and managed to pass a physical examination to get in so couldn't have been quite as useless as my PE teachers made me out to be be, could I.

Some of these men in the early seventies were a breed of their own. In the RAF I was always treated very well by everyone. So why couldn't I have been at school even when a bit fatter than the others.

Paul's point.

If school makes it clear there is a uniform for PE that you're expected to provide but you turn up and the teacher goes all shirtless gym lessons instead most of the time, surely on that basis you could refuse to go shirtless and wear the stated uniform if it was what you wanted to do.

I was scared out of my wits by the school showers, and we had a very abuusive gym teacher who demanded I had to strip in front of the other boys and shower nude with them every day (without supervision so they'd have every chance to do whatever they wanted to me). His excuse for this was that the next year we'd be attending a different school which would require the same thing so he had to get us used to it. (This was an utter lie, they required no such thing.) I had already been beaten up regularly because they thought I was gay, I didn't need to give them confirmation and a chance to murder me unseen.

I actually started refusing to go to school. My parents were not understanding about it and forced me to go. I developed severe insomnia about it because I'd be up all night, terrified about the next day. (The insomnia still bothers me about 35 years later.) When I was there, I found it exceedingly difficult to concentrate or do work because gym was at the end of the day and I'd spend the entire day in terror that it was coming. Eventually my father realized he had no choice but to intervene or see me flunk out of school, so he had us meet with the principal several times. The principal was the father of one of my friends, or I probably would have just been flunked out. He compromised with me that, because I had gym at the very end of the day, I didn't have to shower (I could go home and do that) and could change in a toilet stall. (I was officially refusing on the reason of "modesty".)

I was still very traumatized by it because all the other boys were constantly trying to peer at me over and under the stall as I changed, and the gym teacher encouraged them. (I took to wearing billowy boxer shorts, which I would not remove when changing. This was against the rules but the teacher couldn't admit to knowing about it because he had no legitimate way of knowing.) He gave me a hard time in class every day and even hit me once - he didn't hit me hard enough to hurt me (hitting a student was very illegal) but I did stumble badly and break a toe. (Only bone I've ever broken.)

35-ish years later I had a class reunion with many of those guys in attendance, and now I'm out of the closet and they all know for a fact that I'm gay. Several of them came up to me and, unprompted, apologized for it. This meant a lot to me, not mostly that they were sorry (which is nice but I've had a few decades to move on), but that they realized it had been traumatic for me without me having to bring it up to them.

The horrors adults and kids do to innocent gay kids... :(

The trouble with Reedie's comment about moving somewhere else if you have a problem with the requirements of a school is this;

My secondary school had an exhaustive PE kit list that was bought for us by our parents. I remember the list well and everything on it that my parents had to buy ahead of new school year and term start up. It was quite clear ahead of time that we were being told we always wore sweatshirts outside, vests or t-shirts, with our shorts or sometimes long jogging bottoms were allowed and even a track suit top. PArents had to buy all this kit just for PE, a full indoors PE kit and a full outdoors one that covered playing various team games.

There was never any mention of PE at my secondary school being done shirtless ahead of joining the school.

However when I turned up at school weighed down with all this kit in my bag, plus towel for the showers of course, I soon discovered that what the school PE kit list said and told our parents to buy, and sggested we would wear while in PE was largely a work of complete fiction. For our first lesson in our school gym all the boys did wear the new kit we had, I think we wore white vests with a small pattern across the middle. But the next time we came to PE the teacher gathered us all in the centre of the gym and asked to collect all our vest from us and said we'd do gym without them in future. I can remember being unbelievably nervous at this moment and couldn't believe it as he threw all our vests aside.

So the school officially said one thing to the world and our parents but once the boys like me got into the realities of the school gym the teachers rarely allowed us to put anything on and kept us shirtless. Yet there was no official mention of doing shirtless PE anywhere.

Forgot to say.
Never came to "like" PE, but I did come to see it as a challenge and I found it became compelling after we got used to the hard work.
Also, although the PE teacher was a bit of an ogre, he did seem to show some consideration to less able or extremely shy lads. To the rest of us mortals, he was a pretty fierce disciplinarian!

Enjoyed your posts Reedie and Tonk (22 Nov).
I was never confident about being shirtless or taking showers (partly because I'm circumcised). Gradually though I became a bit more confident. One day, I suddenly realised I liked being shirtless on cross country - amazingly in the worst weather imaginable, with strong gusts of wind lashing sleet into our bodies. Completely bizarre I realise!
I don't think that being shirtless was a force to improve my PE, that was more my teacher (see my post 21 July). I even worked out first and last thing in my bedroom to make the gym classes easier.
It did have a good result. A few years after leaving school, a friend accidentally saw me taking a shower. He was very apologetic but, shall we say, that did not stop him having a good look. A couple of weeks later, at a party, he blurted out that "Ian has a great body". I did not know weather to be embarrassed or pleased - I think more the latter. So the hard work was worthwhile.
Just a final point about your trip to the headmaster, Reedie. I guess you were in England. In Scotland, individual teachers had the right to act "in loco parentis" i.e. administer corporal punishment. Very much part of my PE teachers approach - I felt every one of your head's six strokes! And in Scotland your classmates would have seen the real thing, not just you being dragged off.
And the mention of parents. They very much approved of the new PE teacher's approach. I was mortified when my Dad went and talked to my PE teacher and was shown around, including watching a PE period.

Comment by: Reedie on 28th November 2024 at 23:38



"I'm not sure why there's so much fuss about what seem quite reasonable rules for boys' PE. If the school policy is that boys wear white shorts and no top, that's up to them and you can either abide by the rules or send your son to a different school......"


With all due respect you seem to be one of those people who think If I'm happy, then everybody is happy, but life isn't like that, and as your experience dates to 1971, that is 53 years ago, and things should have moved on since then.

As we have seen if you go back a few pages, quite often a school will demand a whole sports shop full of gear, and the parents, some of them, not well off, buy it only to find their some are only wearing shorts in their lessons. So schools don't necessarily tell the truth (there's a novel concept!) so unless you specifically ask about the dress code, you might well get a misleading answer, and by the time the truth is discovered, it is too late. Also, of course, this is often at the whim of the individual teacher, who has his own agenda.

Just because you had no problems, doesn't mean to say everyone is the same.

As regards Ms. Sanderson thinking there should be more PE in schools, that reminds me of the people who think that National Service should be reintroduced - usually stated with conviction by people who never served themselves, and whose main exercise these days is going to get the morning coffee at Costa. So easy to tell others what to do, provided you don't have to do it yourself.

This triathlon sports forum Slowtwitch is amazing, some women get offended by seeing blokes in the gym without their shirt on and feel 'deeply offended' by the sight of a males bared chest, OMG! GET A FREAKIN' LIFE!

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/t/shirtless-wonder-on-or-off/615509


I only left school in 2012 and we were always hanging out shirtless in class and in front of girls. I#ve hung out around lots of women down the gym too and nobody has ever given me so much as a funny look about it, some admiring ones yep. Some women are trying to get us guys to become like them. School was really great encouraging positive body awareness and enabling us to go shirtless, sometimes we chose to other times we just had to. Most guys are not showing off by going shirtless ladies, and if you're bothered by it then stop looking in me or my fellow males direction, how's that sound.

I'm not sure why there's so much fuss about what seem quite reasonable rules for boys' PE. If the school policy is that boys wear white shorts and no top, that's up to them and you can either abide by the rules or send your son to a different school.
Yes, I'm sure many teenage boys are reluctant to bare their chests, whether it's because they're pale-skinned, lacking in muscle or overweight for that matter. But another way of looking at it is that there's less incentive for a boy to work harder at keeping his body in shape when he can just hide under a T shirt or vest.
In a situation where it's compulsory for every boy to take off his top, surely that can encourage them to put in more effort at building up biceps or a six-pack, or losing weight - and long-term that must boost both their fitness and self-confidence.
In any case, presumably the school also requires boys to be bare chested in swimming lessons, so why should it be so different when they're running around in the gym?
Every school gym I was ever in did bare chests in PE, my first, middle and comp. Even had to start showers in the middle school. We did 3 PE's a week in middle and 2 in the comp, none of this once a month if the weathers nice stuff.
Bare chests in the gym and group showers never did me any harm. I was even dragged to the headmasters office from PE for spitting on the gym floor once and stood there in my bare feet and bare chest as my PE teacher watched the headmaster crack three strikes of his belt across both hands held out. My god that stung like hell but worst was everyone seeing me struggling with the teacher as he pulled me to the headmasters office for that hand whacking. This must have been in 1971.

It makes you wonder what they'd do without a camera pointing down at them in a room such as that. They must know it's there. Plus, why is it there anyway? A normal respectful human being knows how to treat others, adults and children alike. It doesn't take training. I was only on the end of one bit of rough physical treatment in school that I can remember from a teacher, as a twelve year old child in school, pulled up and grabbed by the neck and frogmarched naked to my first school shower and thrown in it, slipping in the wet tiles onto my knees, it lasted a few moments but even just one incident like that never leaves your memory ever, even after having a fair relationship with such a person after they behaved like that.

The boys at Sunlake in their black shorts remind me of shirtless cross country running I did in the upper sixth. Just like that we were, black shorts and barechested, albeit a smaller group of older boys took the free period PE session in sixth form. Those boys looked at least 17 or 18 to me. Isn't it nice to see young non-tattooed clean looking bodies nowadays free of ink and American youth that are actually in shape rather than obese before they leave school like so many are over there nowadays. No mega food portions for those boys I bet.

Thanks for the reply Christine. I thought you might give that type of answer.

Comment by: Mark on 27th November 2024 at 15:31


I think you'd agree, Mark that Florida is rather a warmer and less damp place than the British Isles. As regards that appalling school in North East London, why on earth - assuming the school has been inspected - were no enquiries made as to why the building had padded rooms?. Perhaps, because these inspections are pre-arranged they filled the rooms with soft toys or something equally innocuous.

If you are going to inspect schools (or anything else) it should be carried out with no prior warning whatsoever so that you get a true picture, not a manufactured one.

Looks like you've got a couple of new allies there Alan, with Christine and Yours Truly. You've both posted the same news link last night. I think you might agree you were a bit quick on the draw with criticising her because it looks like she agrees with your main arguments on privacy and child protection.

Has anybody here taken a look at the link to the shirtless blog recently left on here? There's a really good example of boys at school running shirtless for cross country only very recently (2022) and talking about cross country running, while they are all shirtless. One of them has left a comment there about it saying being shirtless like that gave him a great deal of coinfidence.

Sunlake High School - Land O'Lakes, Florida.

https://fl.milesplit.com/videos/581053/sunlake-boys-interview

Education form pupils with learning difficulties in the 21st century:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0e3zjx2lo

When will school inspections really get to grips with some of the sadists and perverts who infest British schools, and if "safeguarding" and "inspections" are so thorough, why on earth was this not flagged up years ago - especially for such vulnerable children?

To answer your question Danny, school inspection would not dictate whether a school should make anybody use a shower, only that the appropriate facilities were available and given enough space provided.

My own personal opinion on the matter is that all schools should provide PE lessons for everyone irrespective of ability and that these should be compulsory for all, and that there should be a little bit more on the timetable not less. PE has been the first casualty in crowded timetables in recent years, some of the worst examples halved their provision. Ofsted supports a minimum two sessions per week. Many years ago everyone took a minimum of two classes per week, some did three and in some schools a very long time ago and in private education it would not be unheard of for there to even be a PE lesson at some point in each day, even if it was just half an hour.

On PE aftercare, my personal attitude is that a shower after PE should be available for all, and that use should be encouraged if needed but not going down the route of compulsion. I think modern day schools are a lot more aware of issues young people deal with when growing up compared to even just 25 years or so ago when I started my job at Ofsted in its infancy. I remember the days when I had to shower at my girls school in Bedfordshire in the 1960's, we had a very strict Miss who checked the girls had stood and washed properly for long enough, and we were put through our paces with her and no answering back to any instructions given. As they say, we were all children once and did the same things. We've all been there.

Yours Truly you have mentioned talking to pupils. I spent a lot of time speaking with pupils as and when applicable during school inspections. I can't claim to remember any pupil speaking to me directly about the subject here but I certainly observed many facilities and I do recall a few recommendations about damp and especially black mould in changing rooms and shower areas being identified by others. Pupils should never be expected to use dirty, unclean or mould infested changing areas or showers. We also looked the toilets over.

I read your story about the boy being locked in the cupboard. It's disgraceful isn't it. As it happens something very similar was being reported tonight about young special needs children being locked into a bare padded room alone and then handled inappropriately, and this was filmed. I have the story here, so it seems even now some lessons refuse to be learned about how to treat people, young vulnerable ones in this case. I just wonder why the same mistakes and behaviour like this keep getting repeated. I think it's fair to say some people misuse the powers they have over youngsters and maybe this will never change, all we can do is find them and remove them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw0e3zjx2lo

Alan, thank you. I have just looked up "Aubade". The poem is beautiful, and a bitingly clear reflection on the inevitable.

YT 26th November 2024 at 11.50

Y.T: I think the aloof persona of Philip Larkin was, to some degree, a device. He hated or dreaded (perhaps both) interviews and having to explain himself or his work . He could never understand why John Betjeman courted publicity, though, ironically, the BBC have in their archive a 1962 TV recording called "Down Cemetery Road" where the two men discuss their work on location. JB tries to draw out PL - he remains gloriously taciturn - so with little success. The film was made for an arts documentary programme, and is worth watching.

He had close friends such as KIngsley Amis, probably his best fri and Andrew Motion's biography describes many of their literary jokes (some quite ribald) and of course, he was a great jazz fan of earlier jazz music , and had a sideline in reviewing records for the Daily Telegraph - he described an evening of reviewing, with a large drink beside him as his favourite job. He thought jazz ended about 1938 - unfortunate as most of the records sent to him came from the LP era of the fifties and sixties, but there was a sort of grim determination about him, a rueful realisation that he was out of his time. Finally, he became alcoholic, though even there he made it a rule to leave the port downstairs so he had to get up to drink his breakfast.

I can forgive all that because he wrote the most beautiful poem in the English language (in my opinion, at any rate) - 'Aubade'. In just a few lines, simply written, without artifice, he sums up the human condition, and the total pointlessness of everyday life.

i never learned any of this stuff at school - I am a great believer in self-education. School is the Poundland of knowledge.

Sorry - a long way from the merits or demerits of wretched staged school inspections!

Alan,

To be fair to Philip Larkin, he hated everybody and everything, didn't he? Himself most of all if the available evidence is anything to go by.

There is a biography, presumably out of print now, titled Philip Larkin, The Marvell Press And Me, written by a woman called Jean Hartley. She was the wife of the publisher of his second volume of verse, which was a cottage affair run out of their council house. (If this sounds somewhat ignominious for a man who would go on to be offered the poet laureateship, his first volume had been published by a pornographer who would publish the occasional novel or poetry anthology as a cover and who never paid him a penny.) She became a lifelong friend of his, although she was never one of 'Larkin's women'', if you get me. She shed some light on his personality. For instance he was seemingly happy for her when both of her daughters got in to university, despite being known for his stated opinion that extending higher education to the working classes was the final nail in the coffin of western civilisation.

I think Philip Larkin was an intensely shy man who found ordinary life very difficult. I think the relentless pessimism was fifty per cent true. He must have found basic social interactions difficult and probably got bullied. And fifty per cent a cloak. Nobody wants to admit that they were a victim. A sense of superiority, real or feigned, can be quite consoling, I suppose.

Anyway. Sorry for the digression. I have no idea whether Philip Larkin or Jean Hartley had to shower at school. Were school showers even around in their time?

Hi Alan,

I couldn't agree with you more about school inspectors asking children about their experiences. After all, we were the 'consumers' undergoing this experience, were we not?

She has herself expressed concern about how the two-day warning convention gave schools time to sweep any malpractice under the rug ahead of inspections. Well, if she and her colleagues had asked the children in those schools they might have got an honest opinion about how things were there.

I went to school in the 1970s and 1980s, so before ofsted. But I don't have to search my memory too hard to come up with incompetent, academically negligent teachers in my secondary school and downright abusive teachers in my primary school - like one teacher who patently hated children and who actually locked one boy in a cupboard because he wouldn't stop crying on his first morning in school. That is a true story.

Christine and her cohorts could have been there for children like that. Could have been.

Hi Donna,

Very sorry to hear you were sexually assaulted.

The way that teacher treated you was horrible but not surprising.

I had heard before of primary-age kids having to shower after PE but this must surely have been very unusual.

Sorry to disagree with you about boys having it easier in the showers. It certainly wasn't that way at my secondary school, where we had a communal shower while the girls had cubicles. Sometimes, in some schools, girls did have communal showers, it sounds like you did, but for boys communal showers were universal.

If boys seem to take things more in their stride than girls, well, that's exactly it. The key word is 'seem'. We are made to feel much more than girls from the earliest ages that our feelings are not appropriate to many social situations and so we learn to mask them. The boys you remember might have seemed like they were taking it in their stride but that was because they had no choice but to do so. Boys found communal showers humiliating as well.

If you are referring to the female school inspector that has posted here I wouldn't hold my breath. I agree with you - I would have thought that someone championing the benefits of school showers would have regarded the feelings of the adolescents who had to undergo them as a primary concern. But Christine already stated in, I think, her first post, that she and her colleagues made a specific practice of not consulting individual children about their feelings and experiences of school.

Comment by: Donna on 25th November 2024 at 23:28


Donna, a few years before he died the poet Philip Larkin was asked in an Observer interview if he regretted not having children (I think this was inspired by his poem "This Be The Verse"). His reply was immediate "Children are very horrible aren't they? - nasty, selfish, vulgar little brutes"

I have every sympathy with your plight, both in school and out of it, but I think there is little difference between the bullying of boys and girls in school, frankly. I went to an all boys school and the bullying and name calling could be intense - I imagine the same is true in girls schools. Judging by the din that happens near to me, the girls are just as foul mouthed as the boys as they wait at the bus stop each morning.

I sadly don't think there is an answer to it -0 the "be kind" message of the Covid years will never be remembered by children of either sex. But privacy should be a human right for children just as it is for adults. I was also an only child, by the way, like yourself, so I fully understand what you mean

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Comment by: James D on 26th November 2024 at 02:21
I'd like to add a different angle of mine to this shower and privacy debate stirred up by the recent comments made by an ofsted person and also references made to comments underneath a news item on the subject........

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.....But there was one thing I didn't like. The attitude of many (not all) PE teachers. I strongly disliked the way many of them watched us while showering. I don't mean striking a casual glance, I mean really looking and keeping their eyes on those of us showering, instead of knowing we were in the showers and just leaving us alone to get on with it. The intensity of the watching over was not needed, in my school at least. I lost count of the amount of times I stood there thinking to myself will this guy just f**k off and leave us to get on with it. "




I think you are correct - some teachers were FAR TOO interested in the lads ablutions and that should raise question marks, not least among their colleagues. If they are too scared to report them to the head, perhaps part of the inspection process should be interviews with staff on a confidential basis. For all the "inspections" far too many schools are a dump, and some very questionable staff get to keep their jobs and pensions. Just to say, James, that I went to a very tough school, and if any lad had caught another looking at his body - even clothed - it would have resulted in a fight. I can't imagine what would have happened in the showers.


Ms. Sanderson will correct me if I am wrong, but I understand many of these otiose "inspections" are done by prior appointment, unlike previous times when they could call unannounced. Plenty of time to get the dubious teachers out of the way, clean up the lavatories and generally run the Mr. Sheen and Dettol round the building. I frankly don't see the point. Perhaps that is whey schools like The Royal Liberty got away with Mr Quinlan for so long. What are they really inspecting? - a rehearsed display, with the ragged edges filed off?. Checking to see the regulation Dulux Magnolia has been touched up this year?. Boxes ticked, exercise done.

As regards that absurd idea by the University of Essex that boys who shower are fitter, stronger etc. Consider this. At any school, any day you will see a class of lads - some will be a thin as a whip, some will be on the larger size and many fall in between. I assume they all take the same lessons under the same dictat, showers or not. I was as skinny as a rake, my best mate was the opposite end of the scale - pardon the pun - we were both taught in the same way under the same rules. I think they were clutching at straws on that one (on public money no doubt)

I'd like to add a different angle of mine to this shower and privacy debate stirred up by the recent comments made by an ofsted person and also references made to comments underneath a news item on the subject.

I was never anxious or concerned about the rule I had to shower after PE at school when I reached eleven, or any time after. I didn't mind that they made us do it, that it was a teacher demand on us all. I was never anxious or much bothered about sharing a shower with my classmates, rubbing shoulders with them all while stripped fully naked, no modesty pants in the shower either. None of that gave me any kind of fears. Actually I quite liked the ability to see others and judge and compare them to how I was, not just the obvious but the whole human form. I thought it was interesting to see what others looked like under their clothes and I didn't care if anyone looked at me and thought the same. Sharing the school showers seemed quite normal and sociable to me. I thought of it as a quite grown up thing to do, we were now at big school after all.

But there was one thing I didn't like. The attitude of many (not all) PE teachers. I strongly disliked the way many of them watched us while showering. I don't mean striking a casual glance, I mean really looking and keeping their eyes on those of us showering, instead of knowing we were in the showers and just leaving us alone to get on with it. The intensity of the watching over was not needed, in my school at least. I lost count of the amount of times I stood there thinking to myself will this guy just f**k off and leave us to get on with it. I didn't let it upset me or anything like that and was fine with the showers, but the teachers just got on my nerves, especially the joy some of them took in getting everyone ready to shower or chasing down boys who tried to slip away without one.

It's okay to have compulsory communal showers in school as far as I'm concerned, but if you're going to do that just let them get on with it and leave alone, no watching. It wasn't prison, it was school. We didn't let our parents watch us bath or shower or stay in the bathroom when we became old enough or young teenagers, we told them to keep out the bathroom while we were in there didn't we, and PE teachers should have done just the same. My classmates were entitled to see me naked and wet after PE, they were too, and the same age, in the same boat as each other, and a lot of the time we needed that shower. But those teachers had done the lesson and should have just kept clear while we did it.

So I'll stand up for the principle of school showers. I think it's quite healthy for your classmates to share and not be afraid of each other like that, or might I add to be shirtless for the main lesson, I was heaps of times. But teachers, get lost.

A question for Christine.

You mentioned that it was up to the school or a teacher and not up to inspectors like ofsted or Her Majety's Inspectorate to dictate policy on whether schoolchildren took communal showers after PE lessons. Fine, that's clear enough. But I'd like to know if Ofsted or previous inspectors actually have an official stated opinion, or would have had an opinion in the past on whether school showers should actually be compulsory or not for all, like in my time in the 1980's, or whether they should have been available but voluntary. It was quite a big deal for a lot of us you know!

I once slipped and fell stark naked in front of the p.e teacher because I was rushing to get in and she humiliated me in front of the whole group. Was awful and I'd still like to smack her in the face for it over 30 years on. I was only 10. I was an only child and not used to taking all my clothes off in front of others and had the task of p.e showers in primary and comprehensive, exactly the same as all the boys did. I had also recently been sexually assaulted and just wanted to die, there and then. Fair enough, the teacher wasn't to know that but she would have been hauled over the coals for doing what she did, these days. Wasn't at all against the principle of showering at all because I hated getting sweaty and smelly even back then but the lack of privacy was awful, especially as I had an early puberty.

Boys had it easy in the showers compared to the girls, even with you all sizing up your extra bits with each other. Nearly all girls felt humiliated by showers in school but I'm sure a female schools inspector already knows that if she has the facts at hand or spoke to anyone.

Hi Terry,

I wasn't even referring to Christine in my last post. I was referring to the Essex University report that referenced the data compiled by her colleagues and her.

Regarding the 'everybody's different' argument, well, I don't think it washes (boom boom). If you go to that BBC article and down to the comments you can see it for yourself. Post after post after post detailing bad memories of communal showering at school. Clearly a lot of people feel the same about this matter.

Every few years or so some random hand-wringing news article crops up in this or that newspaper or whatever news website, asking essentially the same question: why, oh why, are the nation's teenagers being put off school sports? Well a lot of the respondents to that BBC article supplied one of the main reasons for this in plain English. In fact one respondent even made the cutting comment that the only other groups in UK society compelled to undergo communal showering are army recruits and people in prison.

In fact, according to the BBC article the report did actually cite concerns about showering as a barrier to participation in school sports. I think we can assume Christine was not involved with this part of the report.

Christine actually ended her last comment with the following;

'One final thing, where enforcement of school showering took place after PE, parental pushback against the practice of offering or requiring showering with PE was negligible to nothing in findings.'


So no complaints then. That sounds right. Didn't one of the PE teachers on here a few months ago actually say that almost no parents ever complained about showering at school, or for that matter shirtlessness. I think so. If I'd seen the wording from the website I'd assume any child of mine was showering, and I would not complain about it if I discovered they actually were doing so.

Is there anybody reading this who thinks they would complain about it if they had a minor family member being told to shower in a school?

The BBC news item about school fitness and showering was hardly a bombshell revelation in my opinion. Like many surveys they often discover the bleeding obvious. My take on that, a school that takes PE seriously is more likely to have fitter pupils in it and is probably more likely to do and have all the things needed for PE, including the ability and need to shower. It's so easy to understand I don't know how anyone can argue about it.

Comment by: Yours Truly on 25th November 2024 at 15:06


I should have thought one of the duties of an inspector would have been to talk to some of the pupils to get their views, and to express their opinions, but Ms Sanderson seems to have viewed them much as she did the equipment and facilities, just as figures to be noted down on the clipboard or spreadsheet. She tells us she had been a school governor, but these posts are very much taken by people who seek them out. She told us her findings were facts and not opinions, but she merely cites the University of Essex study, which, again are based on supposition not concrete fact, so they are the University's opinions, and she apparently agrees with them. I repeat you can juggle statistics so that you get the findings you want to put across.


Tom made a good point - his son's school website suggests that showers are encouraged but not enforced, yet he tells us they are in effect, compulsory - you have to wonder why schools are so nervous in making these facts known to parents.. What are they afraid of? - complaints?.

No doubt the schools, like Ms Sanderson, must imagine because nobody complains, everyone is happy with their arrangements. This clearly is not the case.

Well thankyou for answering my question there Christine in a quite informative manner.

PE changing and showering privacy was addressed in one of Christine's previous answers Yours Truly. Privacy was addressed she said in more generalised terms rather than one on one individually looking at the arrangements.

The thing about privacy is that everyone is slightly different with it. Take my old school changing room for example. Some in that didn't care if they were swinging their boy bits in your face while changing or drying off, while others wrapped towels around themselves and faced the wall to prevent more looking at them than was necessary and were definitely hiding themselves. Most of us fell in between.

Even this site, some people are more open than others and reveal more. Each to their own. Did you notice for example how three of the PE teachers that commented on here over the past year or two all used their full names and gave a lot of personal information, so their privacy guard was set low, and of course they were all in favour of school showers and had no concern about shirtless PE mandates either. Just like soldiers, PE teachers don't go big on privacy because it's not practical for them to do so.