Burnley Grammar School

In answer to Greg2's question on 5th December, it is just possible your PE teacher's interest in measurements might have been a study in anthropology - this would tie in with Graham's suggestion of extra mural activities. That said, ALL studies should be conducted with volunteers not conscripts.

Nate on 7th December 2023 at 23:02
Has anyone ever tried to set up showers in a school where they were trying to hide?

Strange question.






You're right Mike. That's not what I was asking. Something went wrong there. I agree it doesn't make sense. I've now forgotten what it was I did actually mean to ask in actual English that did make sense to me at the time I was trying to be clever using a language I've never even studied. I think it was something like did anyone successfully manage to avoid showers in PE when they had to do them.

Comment by: Bill on 1st December 2023 at 00:00
About half the boys I saw cross country running out of Queensbury Academy in Dunstable on Monday afternoon this week were running along shirtless with entirely bare chests. They looked to be about 15 to me. There must have been at least 20 doing that. It looked very old school and like they might have even been divided up like that deliberately but it was impossible to tell.




This is very old school and rare nowadays Bill. What was it like outside that day? I've looked that school on google earth and it certainly looks like a school with very extensive sporting grounds and facilities so must take PE very seriously indeed by the look of the set up from above. They really are spoilt there and I noticed there are some nice nearby off road areas that looked good for running around away from the main roads and streets which I think was described in a later comment.

Whereas boys in school doing the cross country back in the 60s, 70s, 80s and possibly the 90s might have been told by their teacher to run shirtless like that there is no way I can see that kind of old school way still being applied to a class in this day and age so they must have agreed to be running like that and been enjoying it you would think. It's an intriguing observation all the same. Lots of boys do actually love stripping off like that in peer groups with each other, as much as many others really don't like doing it at all and even fear being asked to.

Do you live near there Bill and have you seen that before?

An while we are off-topic discussing languages, my first French teacher started us off on pronunciation by covering the blackboard with words transliterated into the Phonetic Alphabet as used in dictionaries. At age 10!

We nad the "New Latin Course", which with a little bit of penmanship became "The New Eating Course".
Sic transit Gloria . . .

I think all that's happened there is that he's tried to use google translate to ask a question in what looks like latin to me and the translation hasn't quite translated correctly. This AI thing isn't all that intelligent just yet. Possibly it should have been reverse translated back again to make sure it said what was wanted. But a nice try anyway.

Original Andy on 7th December 2023 at 08:30

I'm very interested in your post about working with a different PT, is the routine different to the things you did before and likely body parts and sets of everything? Do you include a cardio session in this or is it just all weights.

Let's say, I have 'room for improvement' and I would like to make it.

Thanks.

James on 7th December 2023 at 12:14

Good luck with finding a new gym, for me it has made a huge difference.


Mr Chips on 7th December 2023 at 17:01

Yes sir, that was it, the Cambridge Latin Course, I think it's still in use so it must have been well ahead of its time when I started with it. Oh, yes, I passed my O levels in French, Latin, German and a few more things besides.


Nate on 7th December 2023 at 23:02

Has anyone ever tried to set up showers in a school where they were trying to hide?

Strange question.

Whilst most boys back in the day were actually rather on the skinny side and certainly not overweight, put yourself in the position of being an overweight chubbier child being made to strip off and be weighed and measured amongst a group of others like that. That kind of situation is setting up potential problems for those who don't fit the regular mould.

Ecquis umquam in schola imbres erigere conatus est, qui se occultare conabantur?

Comments by: Graham Butterfield on 4th December 2023 at 21:30
Danny C on 4th December 2023 at 23:57


The same thing happened to me at middle school too and that was back in the seventies, I joined secondary school in 1978. Boys were sent along to the hall with I think it was a couple of PE teachers from the secondary we were going up to and we all had to take our trousers and tops off while both teachers went around measuring and weighing us while we were just standing around in our pants for about 20 minutes.

James on 7th December 2023 at 12:14 & Original Andy on 7th December 2023 at 08:30

Your memories of Longmans Audio Visual French are quite accurate. It covered all five years with books for both GCE and CSE as they were in the 1970s. It was so much easier to teach than what had gone before, the books were accompanied by some films and audio tapes bearing in mind this was before language labs existed.

Yes, James, I remember the story of M. Jazy and le camion chargé de clous. Those stories were a series of, I think nine pictures and there were choices about how to use them in the teacher's book. Suggested were to start a classroom conversation centred round the pictures, set it as a piece of written composition either in free form or after reading the story in the book or finally using it as dictée. I used all the suggestions at different times on the various stories and yes, M. Jazy had a 2CV.

How, James did you make such a mess of it may I ask? Did you pass your O level?

Original Andy, I think you remember the Cambridge Latin Course, it was new about 1970 and compared to when I learned Latin it was a pure pleasure though not all the older staff liked it, indeed I remember a couple who refused to use it because it didn't concentrate enough on rote grammar learning. The books were brightly coloured, I remember orange, blue, green, gold and purple for the five years to GCE. I trust you worked hard and passed your O levels in both French and Latin?

Original Andy on 7th December 2023 at 08:30

Thank you, that's great advice. I too have always used health clubs but don't use most of the facilities. I'm out of contract time so can just give notice and go. I'm on holiday next week so I will take a day to look at a few other places that are not chains and see where I get to.

Mr Chips on 6th December 2023 at 15:49

I remember Longmans Audio Visual French, the books were about A4 size I think and there was red on the cover along with a picture, I think in black and white? I certainly remember M. Jazy and also a story that was about him and un camion chargé de clous which I made such a mess of that I had to start it all over again. Would my memory also be right that M. Jazy drove un vieux deux CV? What fun cars they were.

James on 6th December 2023 at 13:16

How did I choose my PT?

I have had a number in my time and most were not satisfactory and as you say, filled the session with things I could do on my own. These were all based in 'health clubs' that I had membership of meaning ones with the same branding as an ocean crossing airline so it's more show than substance. After the pandemic gym closures I decided I wasn't going back to those places and so started looking around for something different.

What I found was somewhere far more 'rough and ready' than anywhere I'd ever been before, little polish, no bundles of white towels, no swimming pool, not part of a chain, but loads of weight training equipment and also no yearly lock in to membership so I decided to give it a go.

What I found there were guys who were a lot more serious about training, there are quite a few ex-military guys and the PTs were in a whole different league, they pushed hard from the first minute almost whether you had signed up with them or not. I just needed to decide which one I wanted to work with and agree a plan with him.

How I chose him in the end was not at all scientific, he was a guy I had talked with a few times and so I knew he knew his stuff. I was still waivering when one evening he came and took the next shower to me and what I saw was the body I wanted, well toned upper - defined shoulders, chest, arms and abs, well developed lower - well developed calfs, quads and glutes. I figured if he could achieve that for himself then he could get me there within limitations - he's 10cm taller than me so that's never going to change and he's blond while I'm not any more and never will be again.

Over a year on, I'm more than pleased with the results and I feel great. One of the things that has improved no end is that I no longer get back pain from spending so much of my day standing or sitting on what are usually very uncomfortable benches - think of sitting on a church bench for hours and that's what it's like.

So I guess the only real advice I can give after all that is if you like the body the PT has and that's what you want, he may be the right guy for you.


Mr Chips on 6th December 2023 at 15:49

Yes sir! I remember Longman's Audio Visual French and M. Jazy. It was, I think, way ahead of its time and made language learning fun. I also learned German and Latin and there was certainly no equivalent for German but we had some relatively light stuff for Latin which started out in Pompei and moved around the Roman Empire telling stories. I can't remember much about it other than the books were very bright colours.

Greg2 on 5th December 2023 at 19:52

It's a pity you had to leave your French home, life is so much more civilised here. For what it's worth, I've always believed that any country exports wine the locals don't want. When I first visited Australia, Australian wine was an revelation to me and nothing like anything I'd ever encountered in the UK. I remember an Aussie telling me they only exported the wine that wasn't good enough to wash the car with.

I guess unless you are paying absolutely premium prices, France is the same and of course there's very little duty on wine in France so it will always be much cheaper and better quality. I'm still amazed at what I can buy for less than €5.00.

When were you at school? I can't remember the first text book I used but about 1965 we had a new book called Nos Voisins Français. I still found it as dry as dust but it was a bit of a relief after the endless grammar that we had to teach up until then. From the early 1970s we had a new series of books, called Longman Audio Visual French and that was a huge improvement and concentrated much more on language use rather than rote learning. The lads started to learn better and faster and it was far more enjoyable to use than anything before it.

Does anyone remember un certain Monsieur Jazy if you used the book?

I only had to teach French literature including plays for A level, Andromaque et La Peste anyone?

I agree though that proficiency in one language can make the use of another easier. I also learned German as an adult but now I also have reasonable use of Greek, Italian and Spanish. The one that continuously defeats me is Portuguese but it has a lot of roots in Arabic rather than Latin.

You might be surprised how often schoolboy French comes good. As we are relatively close to the Roscoff ferry, I quite often have an old boy call on arrival there and they are often surprisingly proficient when they get here and while I'm happy to converse in English with them, they want to speak French to blow away the cobwebs and be ready for their trip - because as I'm sure you know, in the main, in France you speak French with no forgiveness for not doing.

I think my old boys must have been well taught ;-)

Original Andy on 5th December 2023 at 09:03

A question if I may please.

You talk of working with a PT in the gym, may I ask how you chose him and how successful you find it?

I've worked with a few over the years but never been really satisfied with them. They are keen to fill an hour with warm ups and cool downs which I can do on my own and then describe exercises and tell you what you need to improve them, if only they would demonstrate the exercise - because I'm a visual learner, I would get it right far more quickly. I've spent quite a bit of money but never been pleased with the results and often nothing much seems to change.

Any advice appreciated.

'As' you wrote that same post on another forum and your questions just look really weird to me and fetish based.

Graham Butterworth.

Thanks Graham. I must admit, when I included that small mention in my previous post, I think I was hoping that you, or one of the other teachers on here, might have replied with something like, ‘Oh, I know what that was all about’ and then go on to tell me more about it. I’m actually more intrigued now, and wonder what became of all that data. It might still exist somewhere, and be of no consequence to anyone. I’d be quite interested in my skeletal measurements at that young age, which is probably due to working in documentary for years, as much as anything else. Though I’ve always had an interest for recordings and documentation and remember when only 11, being fascinated by my life sized x-rays showing my broken, and healing, fractured femur, when on a children’s ward. You could even see my pelvis. I’d pester the nurses during quieter evenings to show them to me in the ward office. I started reading all about bones soon after, and can still name many bones in the human body.

Graham and Danny C.

I didn’t know that happened, and it didn’t in my last year at junior school. I don’t really understand it. Why would you need to be so precise anyway for a gym or games shirt for a young lad of that age? Why didn’t the small, medium, or large options suffice? They must have been available, and he’d grow out of them soon anyway. After all, it’s almost traditional to see the little 1st. years (year 7 today?) turning up in their brand new blazers, usually one size too big, so they could ‘grow into it’, which is usually quite sweet to see.

Mr Chipps.

I never actually lived in France full time. The longest I stayed there during one visit was probably 3 months, but I’d probably return a few times each year to maintain it as I started to use it with Brittany Ferries. I did grow to love France and will alway miss aspects I became so used to since the early 90s. I think I’ll always resent having to overpay for the mostly substandard French wine sent over here, and always miss the more rustic lifestyle: the remote and mostly empty countryside; chopping logs for the wood burner; picking the naturally growing fruits at the back, and the wonderful wildlife…even the lizards. I do still have several French friends. One teenager I’ve known since he was born came to stay with me a few months ago to help with his English. He’s was always very quiet, but bright, and is now reading Law at Poitiers University. I sold up in the end because I had to make a decision due to several circumstances really. I learnt long ago that nothing lasts, and everything moves on. It was still a sad time.

The odd thing is that I always hated French at school. I had to do it because the two top sets in English had no choice. I never enjoyed having to go to the front of the class in a small group to act out little plays or scenarios in French, which was a big part of how our French teacher structured her lessons. I grew to just hate being watched or stared at, which just added to why I disliked the subject.

What I did discover to be interesting and so unexpected though, was that once your brain had attained the wiring for an additional language, as I’d always had a bit of German, you seemed to absorb another one that little bit easier. I’m sure you’ll understand this. So consequently what amazed me was how unused schoolboy French from years ago, would reawaken from subliminal depths and become useful again. It certainly provided me with a structure to add to much more easily, and so did become useful to me in the end, despite my dislike for it all those years ago

That was a good read Dan C, you see there's the power of going bareskin to take moderate walking or running exercise, but you've al;ready done it as a kid unlike a lot of people. As I said before we don't have a collection of gym bods wanting to show off, just normal regular guys discovering something about themselves and giving it a go and coming to roughly the same conclusions you seem to have done too. We've just gained our 22nd member of the bareskins whatsapp group at the weekend and tonight at 9pm we are meeting for a 4 mile run with the newest member and hopefully me and another 5 guys, we aim to be out for around about the hour from 9pm to 10pm, with temps looking to be around 4 degrees at the time. Easily doable, and will come back feeling so healthy and full of vitaility. Definitely give it another go but find what best suits you to go out in with the conditions. Most people we've gone out with for the first time in lower temperatures have been surprised how well they managed to cope.

A question to the female contributors to this discussion who shared PE lessons with shirtless boys.

Over the years there have been several comments from males complaining about being forced to show their nipples in PE, which apparently was a particularly bad experience when the session was shared with girls. A few even spoke of crossing their arms over their chests to hide their nipples, and one male recalled a female peer chuckling when he tried to cover himself so.

Did you or other girls ever talk about the boys' nipples, stare or tease them about it?

David W on 4th December 2023 at 13:04

A while back, I took some time to look through this board, what I saw convinced me of the stand I take. Posting a one liner telling me I'm wrong isn't going to change my mind.

Mr Chips on 4th December 2023 at 16:27

I'm looking forward to Finland, I know it will have challenges in the dark and cold.

Alan on 4th December 2023 at 17:24

Quite right, you can't post retrospectively and you can't delete either. The evidence is there. Your repeatedly bad behaviour and bullying of posters who don't agree with you convinced me to spend the time to look. You are still doing it most recently with your accusation of loitering. There are many, many others.

Pete on 4th December 2023 at 19:11

No, never. I've seen pictures of those who have and never wanted the look they give you besides much of it is illegal. For some reason, if I start to work at it, I pile muscle on my shoulders and chest - not my arms or legs though, they need far more work.

These days, I'm more interested in keeping my legs and glutes in good shape - my PT makes the point that as joints age, you need strong muscles around them and the joints lower in your body have to work harder than the upper ones so from the waist down, I'm pretty solid and defined and above, not huge but well toned. I guess I've got the classic double V well developed.

I drink a lot of protien shakes, usually as meal replacements on gym days with an extra one before I start in the gym and one for breakfast every morning. It works for me and I'm pretty pleased with how I look.

Mark J on 4th December 2023 at 21:43

Please see my posts above, I have looked and when you do, you will also see trends. I'll say no more.

If I can help Mark J out with his "evidence", and I hope I'm not talking out of line here but Alan does indeed live in the London area like you said. How do I know this, because we have exchanged emails and spoken about the area he lives in - Havering, and most certainly not the north of England at any time or a grammar at any time. So that can put to bed any further speculation on that one I think. You can only have a great deal of empathy and some sympathy for anyone who regards their own schooldays so poorly and feels their education was nothing near the quality it should have been. I certainly don't think too many grammar boys would ever describe their schools in the way Alan has done with his own, as a dump and being run down before closure with elderly teachers just seeing out their time with disinterest. How demoralising must that be for intelligent youngsters who ache to do well, and despite that Alan has done very well for himself despite his school and good for him.

Now I've got an admission here. I've been reading the bareskin posts by Craig with interest. So much interest infact that a few weeks ago on a couple of the really mild October nights I took a couple of late night barechested power walks just before bed. It was after midnight when I did this so it was very quiet and I live next to a nice meadow with a river running at the back of the house. I went out in just short and trainers but kept my top with me just incase I needed to put it on if someone came along. I didn't really wish to be seen like it at that late hour. I enjoyed it more than I could believe, and a few nights later I shocked myself by going further and not even taking a top with me, again well past midnight and did a power walk over one hour in length barechested, in the dark and quiet, alone by myself. It felt a bit "dangerous" as I could not grab a top to stick on if someone had come past me. I did feel an adrenaline rush doing it and came back home feeling quite good, and I am a very self conscious person at the best of times. It also helped me to sleep better when I'd done this. Craig's posts have clearly enthused this somewhat self conscious person just the other side of fifty to go and do something well outside of my comfort zone. I've been tempted to try in the colder weather but the thought of anyone seeing me puts me off.

Now I'm the person who went to a strict barechested PE kind of school where even sports day was done without shirts for boys in front of parents, and a lot of drama lessons took place the same. As I said back in 2020 there were many weeks in my school year in the early to mid 80's where I could end up barechested on four days out of five in the school week, which nowadays seems almost ludicrous. I won't repeat myself, just refresh with the posts November 2020 to May 2021, I think I did about ten or so back then and gained some rather nice friendly email responses, including Alan. Certainly "bareskin" running as Craig does it is nothing new to me. I was doing it in school at the age of 12 until just about 18 almost. As a sensation it does feel nice to have fresh air on your body even if you are self conscious about showing it. I don't much care for running or jogging nowadays, infact haven't run since schooldays that I can think of, much preferring biking for fitness and walking, but am happy to have another quiet bareskin power walk at some point quite possibly. Luckily I'm one of those people who is the exact same weight in my fifties as I was at twenty or so, and at least look acceptable for my age even if I have never been able to quite stop the self consciousness about what I look like I've had since schooldays. All that barechested PE and drama, or showers just never managed to quite knock those self doubts away, but never mind. Perhaps it's never too late to overcome it, things like Craig has set up might work wonders for older people to rethink themselves and bring out positive thinking about the self. If you had told me at this time last year that I would actively choose by my own self to go walking bareskin late at night around my area at my age I would have simply dismissed it. Doing it alone was even more remarkable, it would have been easier with companions I'm sure. It's never too late to change.

Graham, your comment about going into schools sounds incredibly similar to an experience of mine at primary. I still remember the exact date it took place, and the time, just around 11am on Monday 6th July 1981 when our primary class of 12 year olds was minding it's own business doing a normal lesson when all the girls were told to leave immediately and then boys from another class joined ours, so there were about 30 to 35 boys in one classroom. Then a PE teacher from the secondary school was introduced and left with us. Almost the first thing he uttered was "everybody strip to the waist" which created a bit of a shock around the room I can tell you. I remember having incredible butterflies in my stomach hearing this sudden instruction. I was wearing three layers, a knitted jacket, shirt and a t-shirt under that. It all had to come off at our tables. Everyone in class had to strip down barechested and place the clothes on the table in front of them. We all looked very uncomfortable that morning at such a stange thing suddenly thrust upon us. I really did not want to do that and neither did some of my friends, you could see it in their faces. But we all did, and had to individually walk up to the PE teacher up front of the class and hold our arms aside and get the tap measure wound around our chests across our nipples and also at the waist. We had to keep our tops off until he finished doing everyone and had finished his little talk, all sat there dying to put the tops in front of us back on. All this happened for an outside football top we mostly wore over the wintery depths when at secondary shortly after as we never ever wore anything for PE inside at any time ever and outside summer term athletics was done barechested outdoors for boys. That PE teacher probably ended up being my favourite one of those I had, and was the first I met on that date on his notorious primary visit to us.

Andy, the evidence is sitting on this thread quite clearly if you care to read it. As a lawyer you will be good at detail and reading the finer points so I am confident you will be able to find the written evidence here that I have seen. Other than that what proof could you possibly require, come on get real here and stop it, there are lots of repeat names here and you know that full well.

Thankyou for your full explanation there Greg. That's an interesting little story you tell there and something which I have never come across before in my time teaching. It seems detailed to a quite extreme degree and quite unorthodox to say the least. You would have thought he was doing something on an official basis with permission. I wonder if he might have been some kind of college/university student doing that as part of an associated course within a short term work placement as you say he wasn't there long.

I remember as a young PE teacher in the late 1970s and early 1980s I was sent a few times to about four local primaries to talk and measure them so the school could order the PE tops in the right sizes ahead of going up. The parents at that time didn't have to bother about buying it themselves, the school provided it and ordered it all with a small fee payable afterwards. It was only a waist and chest measure and there would be a PE talk and after it the primary boys would be asked to take whatever they were wearing off to be sized up shirtless while it was done. That way of doing things ended in about 1985 and parents were left to get on with it themselves, although I think it was quite common to do this. I saw this as rather pointless and doing the parents job for them.

Have you ever taken steroids in the gym Andy?

Comment by: David W on 4th December 2023 at 13:04

Thanks for that David. You are quite right. I only discovered this board about 5 years ago. I didn't know of it 15 years ago, and you can''t post retrospectively.

As regards Mr Dando's post. I actually favour showers because even as a kid I sweated easily. I just objected to being shouted at and looked at by the teacher concerned, but knowing other lads sweated like I did, I know we would have been more uncomfortable without them, but for a lad that doesn''t sweat, or is especially self conscious (we had one lad who had a long scar from his chest to his navel due to a serious operation in very young childhood - and he was very embarrassed and self conscious about it), then I think if they prefer not to shower in public that should be respected. I also don't agree with the idea of ''unisex'' anything in clothing, and I honestly couldn't be bothered to trawl through websites looking at school uniforms. As a matter of fact - and I don''t want to open a new can of worms, I am a bit anti-uniform. I believe we are all individuals and that should be reflected all our lives. I read with interest on here the other day - I can't recall the guy''s name - where he pointed out that one school insisted on an ''approved'' clothing store and wouldn't allow the lads to wear supermarket bought trousers - terrible at a time when so many people are struggling financially. Thanks for your support - I really do appreciate it.

Greg2 on 3rd December 2023 at 19:09

I was never enthusiastic about swimming in a chlorine filled pool of blue water, I've done it but I don't think I've ever enjoyed it. We do have a pool near us but I rarely visit it.

Open water is a whole different world provided you've got reasonable strength and it does feel amazing. I find it calms down joints that are a little inflamed in no time at all and once I've thawed out, I move much more easily for days afterwards. Give it a try! You can only decide never to do it again if you don't like it and pop back here and have a rant at me!

You lived in a beautiful part of La Belle France, when we were deciding the choice was between Finistère and Charente-Maritime because we wanted to be close to the sea. What may I ask, made you return to the UK?


Will on 3rd December 2023 at 20:34

We discussed this a couple of weeks ago. In my head, I'm 35 but I was born in 1940 so my body is now 83. I keep fit and it works. I don't think there's anything strange about going wild swimming, it helps me keep moving with agility. I have a little arthritis these days and the cold water really calms down joints that have some inflamation and it's much more healthy than taking pain killers. The other thing is the lads I swim with really do watch out for each other so I'm perfectly safe.

Graham Butterfield on 3rd December 2023 at 20:51 & Greg2 again.

I agree, the matter of the measuring is very strange, I never encountered anything like that at school. I did have a physio ask to do it once for a study he was doing and I was happy to let him but that's a whole different thing to a class of lads ready for PE.

Original Andy on 4th December 2023 at 08:35

Enjoy Finland. I agree, a Finnish sauna is hotter than anything you will find in another country and the Finns are experts at it. Enjoy that and then plunging into an icy lake, it will do you the world of good.

Graham Butterfield 3rd December 20:51

I have no memory of why this happened. I do remember that he was new and we all seemed to acknowledge that he was temporary. In fact, now trying to give it more thought, perhaps he wasn’t with us for a whole term, as I only have a very vague memory of any gym lesson with him in charge, if at all. I think we may have been told that something like this was going to take place, possibly mentioned by him sometime, or maybe even during a morning assembly. I just can’t remember those details now I’m afraid.

It all took place in the changing room. Our usual gym teacher wasn’t present, and it seemed to be a lesson with just the boys from the form I was in, so perhaps only 10 to 12 of us. I think we were wearing just our shorts. I don’t think it was before we’d properly changed, so just in our underwear or something, which we weren’t allowed to wear under our shorts anyway. I’m sure we had something on, otherwise I’d certainly have remembered it much more profoundly!

I do remember we had to remove our usual gym shirts, as I think he measured our chests, waists and arm lengths etc. I admit the finger measuring bit needs more clarification, so what I think I recall is him measuring my hand from the wrist joint to the top of my middle finger, so the length of my entire hand I suppose. I think he then measured the width, so from beneath my little finger to just above my thumb maybe. I’m not sure he actually measured every finger, so I apologise for that vagueness.

It was all taken very seriously with each measurement taken noted in his book. One part that has remained clear to me was standing on the bench while he measured me, as we were all obviously shorter than him. I also remember an interest he had in the distance between joints, as I think he must have mentioned this, so remember him doing it. So he would have measured shoulder to elbow, then forearm to wrist joint. He also did do inside leg measurements to our knee, and then from there to our ankle etc. One boy was done at a time, while all others sat and waited their turn. This must have taken several minutes checking each of us, so perhaps this took up one whole lesson period. It was all so long ago, but just stayed in my mind, however vaguely. I think it must have been around 1969.

Perhaps he did spend time at the school specifically to include us in some sort of study he was involved with? We all complied and none of us seemed to mind. I think we were all quite interested really, as it was all so novel and different for a change. We were certainly all too young to question it.

I think the evidence of your own eyes and common sense should be good enough in regards of what Mark J said to you Andy.

It's quite clear to me that Alan did not write that post back in December 2008 so stop the sh*t stirring. There are many duplicate names here, that's why others use an initial. Just recently I think it was picked up on that two names called James posted and they might have been different people. It happens!

And while we're at it, I don't see anything about the school lists that Mr Dando writes down on here that in any way suggests a connection to Alan either. I've read enough of what Alan says to know he isn't someone who holds the views that Mr Dando writes, he's not against school showers for example but is very much pro choice in them. He can put me right and correct me if I'm wrong in that understanding. That is not Mr Dando's attitude is it. He wants total abolition irrespective, therefore not even giving youngsters the opportunity to clean themselves after a gym class if they even want to by choice.

Toby on 2nd December 2023 at 14:03

Very funny!


Jim on 2nd December 2023 at 14:30

Well, I promise I'm not Alan but I do believe that Alan & Dando are one and the same, just too much coincidence in their posting over time.


Mark J on 2nd December 2023 at 14:46

You make a claim but provide no evidence, do you have any or are you just making a suggestion?


Timothy on 3rd December 2023 at 00:11

You make a very valid point about mental well being. I know that if I miss my gym sessions I don't feel anything like as good, keep them up and I feel great. I don't go for huge muscle building, I've done that before and got to a point where I had to buy bigger shirts to fit my shoulders and I thought it looked all wrong. Now I work on my legs and just on tone for my upper body. The tone stuff is challenging because it requires patience and care to get everything right but at least I think I look pretty good and I'm not nervous of taking my clothes off.

Steve on 3rd December 2023 at 08:19

Increasingly I see men and boys out without shirts, now in all weathers. A couple of years ago you wouldn't have seen them in the winter but now you do. I guess men like to push boundaries and just keep going. Let's see what happens if we have more snow.

Mr Chips on 3rd December 2023 at 12:25

Amazing, well done sir. I can't see myself ever trying this but at Christmas we are going to Finland so maybe it will be out of the sauna and into an ice hole for a cold plunge and cool down. At one level, I really want to try it and at another I'm nervous. IME, Finnish saunas are a lot hotter than you would find in the UK so the experience of the ice hole would be a much greater contrast than anything to do with a warm shower here.

Chris G on 3rd December 2023 at 23:53

I guess the vest thing happened in every boy's changing room across the land at the start of every school year. Do vests still exist? I haven't seen one since I was eleven.