Burnley Grammar School

Craig - "bareskin runner" man.

About half the boys I saw cross country running out of Queensbury Academy in Dunstable on Monday afternoon this week were running along shirtless with entirely bare chests. They looked to be about 15 to me. There must have been at least 20 doing that. It looked very old school and like they might have even been divided up like that deliberately but it was impossible to tell.

I've never gone to work expecting my colleagues to be my actual friends but I have gone to work expecting them to be basically civil and friendly towards me most of the week. I think children going to school should at least expect the same from all their teachers. How ironic to find I was met with such an unfriendly reply, still at 74 there's a first time for everything. Why am I feeling some things here are less than real, is anyone else?

Comment by: James on 30th November 2023 at 22:17


I'm not claiming to be a school teacher here James, which is relevant to the nature of this discussion, therein lies the difference. I'm an NHS radiographer currently working at the Norfolk & Norwich University Hospital which adds nothing to the discussion does it. But happy to have answered your question fully. I've been doing the job for the past 25 years.

Unless I am mistaken I believe Alan who you also mentioned has indeed make his own occupation quite clear many times hasn't he, including today if you haven't noticed like I have.

Rob on 30th November 2023 at 18:19

I always think those advocating this sort of approach should post their own C.V. first just to show intent, example and seriousness. You don't seem to have done so, please rectify this.

Of course the other mystery remains the work and occupation of Alan Dando as I think he's best now called, what he does remains a mystery. Well, apart from collecting information on school uniforms at the current time.

Comment by: Mr Chippy on 30th November 2023 at 17:19


A fair point about carpentry but I was only speaking for myself. My interest was in electronics, especially acoustics, and music.

I am a bit of a perfectionist, and unless I can be really good at something, I don't want much to do with it. I was never going to be a Thomas Chippendale.

Again, this goes back to choice - there should be provision for lads who want to become proficient carpenters - or anything. Learning to become really proficient in a skill, carpentry, joinery, or for example, music, requires a lot of study - you don't need other distractions. Making them stay on at school till they are 18, using the standard syllabus will preclude a lot of apprenticeship opportunities, since the shrinking opportunities will go to people who have the right contacts. So often in this tight little island it is not what you know but who you know.

Comment by: Mike on 29th November 2023 at 21:25
Nathan Hind 2015 - present, Graham Butterfield 1975 - 2015 and Robert Coulson 1967 - 2009 are the three people in current and long term past PE teaching who have regularly come on here and spoken about the profession in recent times on History World and this discussion has been all the better for their inclusion. But I have noticed that one thing binding those three together that sets them apart from many others here is that all of them have been prepared to give a lot of personal information, all use their full names and also tell us about an actual named school.



Comment by: Phil on 29th November 2023 at 22:54
Mike, 29th November 2023 at 21:25

That's an observation that I had not taken notice of but very well noted Mike. I think I understand the point you are making with it.




I think a lot more open and basic transparency on this site would be a good thing so that we know who to take seriously and know who we can discard as unreliable.

Hugh says 'it was a real sign of being grown up'.

I'd like to suggest that those who are bickering on here like petulant teenagers at each others throats, on either side of opinion might just like to take their feuds elsewhere, their private emails or whatever and let anyone else just get on with some semblance of an actual decent conversation please.

Comment by: Hugh on 30th November 2023 at 16:19


What a bore. I am not Mr. Dando, and if you are so concerned I am, why not contact the administrator of this site and get him to confirm that Mr Dando's unique web address is not mine.You have the option to contact me direct, if you are that desperate to confirm my bona fides. It is up to you to seek your own remedies. I have to say, I do not agree with Mr. Dando in several things, and I have neither the time or the inclination to trawl school websites to see their uniform requirements. Clear now?

As to the rest of your post to, and about me, I never think it sensible to take "advice" from unsolicited sources on the internet. Some people are in no position to offer the advice they claim to be able to give, because they are not qualified to proffer it.. Sorry to be blunt, "doctor". Or are you the barrister|? - your posts are so similar, I get confused with who is who sometimes.

'In my case I didn't like woodwork, because to me the future is electronics and plastic, not wood, but I went along with it, and just about scraped through' - Alan.


Tell that to all the carpenters around the place working on new builds as we speak. Carpentry has never been more sought after or paid so well for the properly qualified. Then there's furniture too, and fencing and a whole lot more besides.

Mr Chips, I remember having a jockstrap for rugby, it was a real sign of being grown up! I think I got it when I was fifteen, the PE department supplied them and we just had to bring in the money, I think it was £1. Interesting you can still buy them at that source of everything, Amazon not that I want one, these days I'm a compression shorts man as recommended by my physio who knows a thing or two about staying fit in sport.


Alan on 30th November 2023 at 12:49

Dear oh dear.

You still seem to be making very angry posts when others don't fall meekly in line with your view of the world and how it should be or should have been once when it wasn't. You really must get past this. Did you take any of my advice? I suspect not, given all the bile you posted in response to it.

You seem to want to group those who disagree with you or don't engage with you as some sort of conspiracy and yet you deny being Alan Dando. How very strange.

Barney it is nice to hear that jockstraps are still around and still appreciated. I too wear one for gym. Ignore what others say, Just do and say what you want.

I completely get what Robert Coulson said yesterday.

I had a pair of really down to earth, easy to get on with, and certainly I'd describe them as friendly teachers for PE. They went out of their way to help everyone, even the least able within our classes. But we definitely knew not to push our luck with them because when they did occasionally lose it with someone it would really hit home and make you quake as you looked on, but it was so rare. For anyone thinking that these teachers let us off the usual PE requirements, forget it, they still made us all do them.

Comment by: Original Andy on 30th November 2023 at 09:13
Today's missive from my friend Andy reads:

"Alan on 29th November 2023 at 16:51
Mr Dando on 29th November 2023 at 19:20
Alan on 30th November 2023 at 07:28

Well, well, once again we find posts lined up to render an attack on a poster who doesn't fit the Alan agenda that everyone here must adhere to.

The obsession with what children wear for PE at the current time, continuously referred to by Alan Dando is very unhealthy and it's clearly an obsession.

As many have said including Mr Chips who now appears to be the latest victim of Alan, (it makes a change from it being me as I've now been reduced to snide comments)"


A few comments, only

1) I am NOT "Mr. Dando

2) You state openly that " I've - [eg, you] = now been reduced to snide comments"

Yes I am sure we all get your impassive disdain (and not just to me, either). For the record, as I think I have made very clear, it is not to be pre-occupied by minimalism in school PE kit, but merely to point out - as "Mr Chips" to his credit did, - that pupils should be allowed to wear what they comfortable in.

If I might be allowed to say so, it is your goodself who seems to be more obsessed than myself - for example yesterday, you had to add the detail that you wore a jockstrap at school. Did we need to know that?. I certainly didn't.

Where I take issue with "Mr Chips" and strangely - just like you - he employs a dismissive tone and uses a rather vague disingenuous argument for so doing, and didn't answer my question - I am used to that, as "Dr Hugh" did a very similar thing), is his apparent relish at talking about caning boys. I merely asked him if it crossed his mind he might sometimes have caned the wrong "culprit," and if that concerned him. A fair question but one he chooses not to answer.

I really am a bit fed up with your "snide comments" Andy, - as you are honest enough to admit they are.- and your somewhat hyperbolic accusations might carry more weight if you had the courage to put your real name to them.

For the record all my comments appear under my real name and I have from time to time published my email address. I know you say you believe I do this for nefarious reasons, but I have done so again today. Anyone can contact me if they wish - even you. I'd encourage you to do so rather than spread venom and wild accusations on this site. If you have some personal animosity towards me, it would be better to discuss it openly with me. I have been as open as I can be on this forum. Over to you, mate!

Mr Chips on 28th November 2023 at 15:03 & 29th November 2023 at 16:01

Thank you for another couple of informative posts.

I laughed when I read your account of getting laundry done at home. I don't remember my mum having to do it all by hand but I really do remember the washing machine that moved the clothes around, it was a Hoover something I think and then you had to pull them out and put them through a hand wringer. Then she moved on and had a 'twin tub' with a spin dryer but you still had to do a lot of lifting of wet things to use it. After I started work I wanted to buy my mum an automatic washing machine but she wouldn't hear of it, they took too long and surely I had better things to spend my money on. She did eventually get one but she never thought much of it. How would we live without them today I wonder?

So yes, we didn't have many clothes but I do remember being told that I needed a jockstrap for PE and asking dad for the money which he gave me without question and I started to wear it, it felt great and so grown up. I played rugby for years and wore one right through that time and indeed still wear one at the gym for my old gits session each day and so do the guys I train with. To our amusement just a few weeks ago a couple of younger lads, meaning those about 30 came and asked us where to get them and of course the answer to that is the same as anything else these days, Amazon. I see they've bought them so maybe they are coming back into fashion.

I would also say I went to work to work, not to be friends with anyone. I always found the over friendly approach of some to be thoroughly unhealthy. You may make friends with a work colleague, you don't go to work to make friends unless you have a very strange out look on life and in any event, I had enough friends outside of work without looking for more. The term 'professional distance' springs to mind about work, when that is compromised is where problems arise.

It seems new posters here are often attacked unless they fit an unhealthy mantra. When I said in my first post that I had stopped to watch some lads doing rugby training the response was that I had been 'loitering'.

I do wonder if the poster knows the definition of that but it is generally a reflection of unsavoury activity so an utter insult in response to my first post. It said way, way more to me about the mindset and intelligence of the poster than it did about me, pausing on my way home to watch rugby training at a school I attended as a boy and where I am now a governor who has had all the necessary checks to ensure my suitability for that role.

Some people want to drag everyone down to their level with sewage flowing through what should be a brain and their obsession with the unhealthiest aspect of anything. Others shouldn't engage with this. This is a forum with many contributors and no one is obliged in any way, though it does seem that those who refuse to engage are subject to insults and snide comments. How very childish but then someone who is obsessed with their past can't possibly have grown up.

Alan on 29th November 2023 at 16:51
Mr Dando on 29th November 2023 at 19:20
Alan on 30th November 2023 at 07:28

Well, well, once again we find posts lined up to render an attack on a poster who doesn't fit the Alan agenda that everyone here must adhere to.

The obsession with what children wear for PE at the current time, continuously referred to by Alan Dando is very unhealthy and it's clearly an obsession.

As many have said including Mr Chips who now appears to be the latest victim of Alan, (it makes a change from it being me as I've now been reduced to snide comments) those at school now should have choices we never did have.

All that said, I was always quite content in my plimsolls and white cotton shorts out for a run even on a morning like this one with a heavy frost. You soon warmed up. I have good memories and although I have only done weight training for several years, I'm almost tempted to get back out there and do some bare skin running.

Comment by: Robert Coulson - Teacher 1967-2009 on 29th November 2023 at 18:04


I entirely agree with Robert that you can be friendly at the same time as maintaining, for want of a better word, standards. Though never a teacher, when I employed Saturday lads, I was able to get them to understand that if, for example,, a courier was coming to pick up a parcel at midday, you wanted it ready for collection at 11.45, not 12.15 and you wanted them to be on top of things without having to keep telling them.. Whatever the occupation, work is always more enjoyable AND productive if you keep amicable relations with everybody involved. As a consequence I found that my assistants were always cooperative. I see no point at shouting at people and behaving like a martinet, calling them only by surname.

Robert makes the point that one of his colleagues kept a nicer personality behind his dour outward expression - acting against your natural type always looks phony, and you see it every day with politicians. In the end it is self-defeating because people will see you are acting (which Robert clearly did). Nathan always ensures his lads are properly dressed when they go running in winter - admirable and sensible and it is good that he ensures the welfare of his pupils. One would hope that all teachers in 2023 would be as considerate.

Given all this I am surprised that there are still people (we see them on HW) who hanker after the "good old days", which were anything but.

Somebody the other day (I have forgotten his name) asked if there were subjects other than PE which we disliked. In my case I didn't like woodwork, because to me the future is electronics and plastic, not wood, but I went along with it, and just about scraped through But the thing is that all of the other subjects were taught in classrooms or workrooms fully dressed, not in some dingy, dirty, cold assembly hall-come gym, with a very dubious teacher.

There are some subjects - I am sure the teachers here might agree - which are going to be of no practical use to most of us (when was the last time algebra come in useful in your daily working lives?), especially in this computerised Google world?. We go along with the curriculum because it is there, fixed and pointless, like putting the clocks back at the end of October. Like so many things in Britain we love tradition. My point is that if we are going to force lads and girls to stay at school till they are 18, education should be geared to getting them to do the subjects that interest them or will be useful to them personally (and yes that includes PE if they want some sort of career in sport) but a firm no to the things they don't want to do. I emphasize I am talking about older teenagers, who, in a country that had not been let down by successive governments of both persuasions, would have been free to be out of school and following their own individual career paths. The one thing education doesn't need are Mr Crocker-Harris's in 2023 (I was watching the film The Browning Version a few days ago and this austere figure reminded me of several people who have very "traditional" views on education, some of which are vouchsafed on here). I think the only way to communicate with the older teenagers is to treat them in a friendly way, not as conscripts undergoing National Service in 1950.

Mike, 29th November 2023 at 21:25

That's an observation that I had not taken notice of but very well noted Mike. I think I understand the point you are making with it.

Nathan Hind 2015 - present, Graham Butterfield 1975 - 2015 and Robert Coulson 1967 - 2009 are the three people in current and long term past PE teaching who have regularly come on here and spoken about the profession in recent times on History World and this discussion has been all the better for their inclusion. But I have noticed that one thing binding those three together that sets them apart from many others here is that all of them have been prepared to give a lot of personal information, all use their full names and also tell us about an actual named school.

Good Evening Mr Chips. I am calling for a revolution in Physical Education with a ban on compulsory showers and forced changes of underwear for sport. While many schools have seen sense by either banning school showers or making them optional there are still some institutions that violate a child's dignity. Here is one such example. https://www.robertclack.co.uk/zschool-uniform

For Girls For Boys
Robert Clack Rugby Jersey in red with blue side panels** Robert Clack Rugby Jersey in red with blue side panels**
Robert Clack Black Shorts with school crest ** Robert Clack Black Shorts with school crest **
Robert Clack Red Polo Shirt with school crest ** (optional) Robert Clack Red Polo Shirt with school crest ** (optional)
Long plain red football socks Long plain red football socks
Training shoes (no plimsolls) & football boots (compulsory for outdoor lessons including football & rugby) Training shoes (no plimsolls) & football boots (compulsory for outdoor lessons including football & rugby)
Towel Towel
Change of underwear Change of underpants (not boxer shorts)
Black Robert clack tracksuit with school crest** (optional) Black Robert clack tracksuit with school crest** (optional)
Black Robert Clack leggings with school crest** (optional)
Black silk / satin scarves can be worn to protect hair during contact sports and during inclement weather conditions. They must be tied tightly at the back of the head.

Mr Chips all PE Kits must be gender neutral with all boys and girls aloud to wear boxer shorts and boys should be permitted to wear one piece swim suits. We should also prevent the restrictions in some schools where boys are prevented from wearing tracksuits or leggings or restricted to inclement weather or "at the discretion of the teacher.

Showers must be banned and boys must be allowed to wear vests or base layers under their pe kits. If necessary pupils should be allowed to come to school in gender neutral pe kits so other pupils do not see them getting undressed in the changing rooms.

Where swimming is mandated there must be private cublcles with all students allowed to protect their gender identities by covering their upper and lower torsos in the swimming pool . We must never again return to the abuses of the 1980's and the loco parentis laws which allowed PE coaches to abuse their position of trust.

I wish to back up Graham's defence there of friendly teachers.

Perhaps there is a misconception going on here on this though. Some people might automatically assume a friendly teacher equals a soft teacher, and it's wrong to think like that. I worked with a long list of very friendly teachers who were the soft spoken friendly ones but had the big stick, their friendliness did not mean they were pushovers who allowed the pupils in school an easier ride. Many teachers, including myself, over the years were actually keen to be not just respected by the class but also liked although they would hate to admit it. Well I just have. Few teachers really wish to be hated or considered less than approachable or unfriendly. Any that did wish to be like that should have found alternative ways of earning their living.

Now I also worked with some very unfriendly teachers too, personally to other members on the staff and to pupils. Did this make them better teachers, absolutely not, quite the contrary actually.

I also remember one man I worked with many years ago who was always desperately keen to keep up an austere facade in front of his class at all times but was actually nothing like his classroom persona. He just refused to let any chink of his own caring personality shine through. Gordon Brown comes to mind when I think of him, he was just like him.

You can be a very friendly teacher and also quite strict with it. Very strict. The two are not mutually incompatible with each other. It would be quite possible for me to run off dozens of personal anecdotes from my long career to make the points here.

Another thing about friendly teachers. If pupils are having troubles at home that are affecting them in school in a noticeable way then they are far more likely to approach a friendly teacher who they think they can talk to and trust than someone who isn't.

Mr Chips 29th November.

Thanks for your non-reply. You remind me of a certain doctor and barrister that I have run across on here in the past. Clearly you are another poster who thinks that your responses are sacrosanct and beyond question. That is not how a forum works but enjoy France.

Peter on 28th November 2023 at 18:19

I often think there is far more wrong with schools today than when I was teaching and the business you cite of the clothing is a symptom. It’s all about control and uniformity. In my early career, I questioned that but made no progress. Now I know that children at school should be allowed more freedom of expression and I would do away with uniforms altogether if I had my way. That woman who describes herself as the strictest headteacher disgusts me but she’s the darling of the current political class in the UK.

David on 28th November 2023 at 18:34

I didn’t say what you suggest and your resulting assumption is at best juvenile. At 74, I would have expected more maturity but I’ve also learned that maturity and age are often completely unrelated.

Graham Butterfield on 29th November 2023 at 00:07

Another one who is choosing to misinterpret what I said. Being friendly with pupils leads to more. Was instilling learning not your primary objective or was it to cosy up with your pupils?

My objective was to teach and instil learning. If that could be done in a light hearted manner then that was fine but if not, then there are other approaches available. Perhaps your primary objective was to be best friends with all your pupils and they achieved little? I would have hoped for a little more wisdom from a teacher.

Alan on 29th November 2023 at 04:12

I’ll give this a complete miss; I’ve read back on some of this poster’s previous posts and I really don’t want to engage, life is too short. Perhaps there will be a few more derogatory posts as a result of this, it seems to be a pattern. I have broad shoulders.

Original Andy on 29th November 2023 at 08:50

Thank you for your response. I see good sense here. I’m sure you did blush asking your father for money to buy a jockstrap but it was worth it. I had a not dissimilar experience all the years before you but when I got to the shop, I had to ask a woman. In those days you didn’t pick up things and go and pay, you asked at a counter and things were brought from behind it. My face was blazing.

Steve on 29th November 2023 at 09:12

It sounds like you had a completely normal experience for the times. You’re quite right of course, boys did as they were told in those days, there was no choice and I don’t think it did harm. To make valid choices, you need a degree of wisdom and maturity and not every young lad has it.

James on 29th November 2023 at 13:50

I don’t think you’re the James who has contributed to this discussion in recent days?

OA words - 'Well there are always some lifetime losers around'



Is rudeness always your stock in trade to those who hold a different opinion to you?

At my school (grammar - early 1970's), boys were ALWAYS addressed by their surnames. Partly tradition, but mostly maintaining the "status" of teachers. We always called a teacher "sir", so every statement had to end in "sir", or you were in trouble.

There has been loads of discussion on this board about kit for PE/cross country. Ours was minimal (but normal for the time) - so only shorts in the gym, cross country only shorts/plimsolls, no top. Again tradition, but also boys did as they were told etc etc.

David on 28th November 2023 at 18:34

Oh dear, I suppose you would rather have been taught by poor, ineffectual teachers and failed to pass any significant exams as long as your teachers were friendly? Well there are always some lifetime losers around.

If you troubled yourself to read Mr Chips' post, you would see that he has old boys still in touch with him, that indicates so many years later how much he was valued don't you think? Perhaps you don't think?

Mr Chips on 28th November 2023 at 15:03

Another informative post sir.

I remember in the fifth form our PE teacher telling us that as we were now 'developing' we needed to start wearing a jockstrap for rugby and other vigorous activity and where we should be able to buy them.

Usually, I had to ask my mam for money for things for school but I just couldn't face doing that so I managed to get my dad alone and just about managed to explain to him with my face burning what I needed. He just laughed and gave me the money to go to the sports shop. When I got there, I was so relieved it was a man on the counter where they were for sale.

Cut to the next PE lesson and we all had them and felt so grown up putting them on before our shorts. It was the start of a long association for me, after that, I always wore one for rugby all the years I played. I did give compression shorts a brief try when they were new but found them too restrictive, they might be better by now, and went back to my jockstrap.

These days I just do weight training in the gym so things have come full circle and it's back to commando as it was at the start of grammar school, perfectly practical and comfortable and it keeps the laundry down.

I will doubtless find myself as disliked as the man who shot Bambi's mother, but I wonder how "Mr. Chips" would cope with teaching in today's classrooms, where he wouldn't have the option of using his cane (with alacrity, it seems to me?). He talks of caning boys severely so they would'nt "re-offend", but as he enjoys his retirement in France, I wonder if it ever crosses his mind that he might have caned some lads in error?.

I am not by any means comparing him to the late Mr. Boreham at my school, and his twisted fetish, but Boreham got great pleasure out of caning and it was a matter of indifference to him who he caned. I will give one example. One day in January during my school years we were in his science lab (he taught both Technical Drawing and Science). I had a cold at the time. At one point in one lesson Boreham yelled at us to all stand up and remain silent with our hands by our sides and he told us the first person to move would be caned. This went on for about 5 minutes then I wanted to sneeze and as a reflex action I moved my right hand to my face. He caned me with six strokes. Even one of the other lads pointed out I had a bad cold and Boreham countered by threatening to cane him to for "insubordination". How can anybody have any respect for such a man?. I suspect though, teachers who used the cane to do their talking, were only respected out of fear, they were probably, at best, thought of as cranks and at worst, despised. By the way, if I ever met one of my old teachers there is no way on earth I would address him as "sir". Would anyone?

On the subject of surnames only, though it might be true that in the services this outdated mode of address is still used, schools are not a division of the armed services, despite the fantasies of some martinets who work in them. Most businesses these days refer to their employees by their forenames and even the police use forenames (I know a man who is a copper and he has told me they are very informal these days). Why prepare kids for a way of life that hasn't existed for 50 years?. They are very outdated institutions if they carry on like that today.

I've just seen the comment that David has picked up on from the gentleman going under the banner of "Mr Chips" as an elderly teacher.

As a teacher of 40 year standing myself from 1975 to 2015 in various schools and in different countries for a time I'm quite taken aback by that comment "It wasn’t my objective to be friendly, it was my objective to teach".

The very best teachers of all can actually be friendly, authoritative and respected in equal measure. This isn't about being best mates with your pupils or anything like that, there is obviously a professional distance to be maintained of course there is. There is a difference between friendly and friendship. Although I have to say I do have a couple of friendships with former pupils now both in their mid 40s who I meet socially and share a drink with if I see them in our local and have the numbers of after we reunited many years after they left school.


A word for Craig. I think you've done well to attract a group of similar minded people such as you have. I'd be prepared to join you and be your oldest member if I knew you. One of the best lessons in life is to keep active and your way of running is a perfectly healthy option. When running it's not actually the cold but the excessive heat that is the biggest problem that would see most shirtless runners going out in and that they would need to be far more careful running long distances in.

Quote from Chips - 'It wasn’t my objective to be friendly, it was my objective to teach.'


Really? So being friendly isn't compatible with an ability to teach? Cobblers to that!

I'm 74 and had some very friendly teachers, even in PE guys, who were some of the best and taught me really well. One of the old unfriendly bast*rds in Maths was the worst for teaching and discipline.

Nobody is going to argue about surnames only on the back of shirts, although the only reason for that is a commercial decision to milk money out of the sad sheeple who slavishly buy all the new latest shirts from teams every time they come out each five minutes. That's all named shirts are about. I never understand why so many people on sports clothing allow themselves to be ripped off quite willingly.

I've also read a story today about kids in a school not being allowed to wear supermarket own brand black trousers to school because they must go to one certain shop which is far more expensive. Some of these schools are now run like little dictatorship fiefdoms, and actually some supermarket clothing can be really rather good. No school should have any right to make such demands of parents about where they can buy a perfectly decent pair of plain black trousers as long as they fit and are smart and the right colour.

Paul on 26th November 2023 at 21:09

Thank you for your response to my question. I suppose a life at school being addressed by your surname prepared you well for life in the navy. I wonder, in terms of fitness you achieved at school, were you also ready for Dartmouth or did you need to do more to pass fit for entry? I know the navy has high standards, I’m just curious, did you meet them with ease?

Lance on 26th November 2023 at 22:00

I refer to your response to another poster but were you not required to do other things at school that you detested? I don’t know too many lads who loved algebra or Latin or indeed many other things. Was your dislike focussed specifically on PE or were the other things?

Danny C on 26th November 2023 at 23:13

Surnames for boys was just a tradition that was rarely if ever broken. I was addressed by my surname as a boy, as a teacher, I addressed boys by their surnames. It wasn’t my objective to be friendly, it was my objective to teach. I didn’t see it as a matter of authority or anything similar, it was just the way things were. You make a point about surnames and being uncomfortable, I would say the same applies to first names which tend to have far more variations and alternatives than surnames which remain constant. You cite this very clearly yourself in the examples you give and for what it’s worth, I know a Daniel who hates being Dan or Danny but he never minded being addressed as Murray which is his surname.

Greg2 on 26th November 2023 at 23:18

I’m so glad you enjoyed Goodbye Mr Chips; it does belong to another age and was old when I was at school but there is something about Mr Chips in the film that I admired in that he always wanted the best for the boys and I hope that’s what I did too.

I think I was valued by boys I taught – remembering that the youngest ones are now around forty and the oldest are in their late seventies, in some cases I taught a boy and his boys but any school master of long standing would be able to claim teaching more than one generation of a family. There is something very satisfying about it and it’s quite amusing when the then father comes to parents evening and calls you sir.

I don’t think I ever caned any boy frequently as you put it, if a boy was caned by me, I always attempted to make it sufficient that he didn’t want it again in a hurry and it seemed to work. I always caned more in the first two weeks of any school year than thereafter just to set the tone that my classes were about learning and discipline and failing in either regard would have a stinging consequence. It worked, lads behaved for me and worked hard almost without exception and those few exceptions resulted in a few more canings but rarely the same lad twice.

There are a few ‘old boys’ I still hear from though in retirement we moved away and are settled in Brittany, just west of Roscoff where I speak French every day, probably now my first language. We haven’t been back to the UK for quite a few years.

Original Andy on 27th November 2023 at 09:19

Ah, another one who being addressed by surname prepared well for the world of work. There are clearly still some settings in which there is more formality and the forces and the situation you cite in the court are clearly two of them.

I must say, I dislike the degree of informality there is these days though here in La Belle France, more formality still exists and I’m unfailingly addressed as Monsieur.

Marco on 28th November 2023 at 04:01 & Ivan on 28th November 2023 at 11:40

Certainly, I wore short shorts as did the boys I coached for rugby but in the nature of rugby, clothing is far tougher than it needs to be for other games and there’s also something about making it difficult to get hold of – remember the England shirts introduced in secret for the Rugby World Cup in 2000? They certainly helped England win when no one else had them but of course now everyone does. I can’t help but wonder on the rare occasions I watch football or tennis if the length of shorts doesn’t in some way impede movement, I think I would find the length extremely irritating.

The no underpants rule which was there when I was a boy and there all the years I coached was more relevant at the beginning than the end. My mother did all our laundry by hand, she really didn’t need any more to do and apart from anything else, we didn’t have many clothes, most things were one off and one on so it was sensible to take off underpants for PE when they could be dirty and sweaty as a result of the lesson because you wouldn’t have had a spare pair. Even after my mother had her first washing machine, a single tub that had an electric propellor which swirled the clothes around before she had to pull them out and put them through a hand wringer it still took her a day to do the laundry and she still didn’t need any more.

These days with automatic washing machines, we all tend to think laundry is an easy job and so it is but it wasn’t always like this and equally, we didn’t have lots of clothes. These days there is sport specific underwear which no doubt many choose to wear though while I played rugby, I have to say, and this was now forty years ago, I preferred a jockstrap over and above anything else – support in the right place and freedom to move for the biggest muscles in your body but they seem to have gone completely out of fashion unless someone knows something different.

Tony on 28th November 2023 at 13:47

I’m not sure that men are ever referred to by sports commentators in any other way than by surname and these days when names are often on the back of shirts, they are only surnames. Clearly it’s here to stay!