Burnley Grammar School

Russ - "I think what Bill has seen isn't comparable with others who have spoken of their pasts in normal school PE lessons, such as cross countries stripped down. I think in the case mentioned it seems like a sports focused school in some way where obviously older ones are making decisions for themselves rather than being imposed which accounts for what you saw and the answer the nearby resident gave you, and it was such a very warm February day yesterday I don't blame them. It sounds like a place with a very relaxed and healthy attitude, but not as I say worth comparing to your average unfit 14 year old being sent out to run a few miles in the cold in 1975 perhaps."


I think you are probably right there Russ. I would not expect to see that very much in this day and age but having done so I do not believe they would be forced into running like that against their wishes like so many other boys did in the past times (me included) when they really were given no say in the matter, and I suppose for many boys it is seen as quite a personal decision to make about themselves and some clearly felt violated when that decision was taken out of their own hands and made for them. I didn't but obviously many did. What I've seen I found to be surprising, but also rather refreshing and interesting to observe, but nothing like old times, they all looked remarkably comfortable in their skins to me from my vantage point stuck on the roadside looking across.

Comment by: Russ on 16th February 2024 at 20:10
'I think it's fair to say that some teachers considered themselves a law unto themselves once upon a time. There were the school rules and then there were 'their' rules, and that was a bit clear with one man I had who basically ruled his PE classes I was in by decree, his word was the law.'



This is so true.

I was shy and had a PE teacher in my comprehensive who dictated like this. He was a bare chests in PE kind of guy and projected his liking for it onto everyone.

It was - When I say shirts off sonny, it's shirts off, or I will pull it off.

That was if we were in the PE gym already and in kit.

If we were in the changing area it was sometimes - bare chests bare feet to the gym pronto.

But then school PE kit wasn't a bare chest at all, neither was it meant to be bare feet either. But this guy just made his own rules up and nothing ever got said.

And were we following his own example, like hell were we, he was never seen out of white trainers and a selection of branded, mainly Adidas tops in the gym at school.

I always thought the bloke was a fool, thicker than almost all his class of 1978, the same year as Grange Hill started and I was 12 and easily intimidated at that age by such men.

Comment by: ALAN 1970 on 17th February 2024 at 03:44


Hi Alan - a good job we have the new IP system as by old reckoning you would have been me posting under yet another alias!. That was you at my usual time. Like you, all through infant and primary up to big school we had all women teachers - the younger you were you tended to get the mild, "librarian" type of teacher, who wouldn't say boo to a goose, - then in primary they were a bit tougher - the headmistress was very strict - a sort of "I was Himmler's Gym Mistress" type, probably wearing Harris Tweed knickers, but looking back, probably a good bridge between the very soft infant years,where discipline was barely noticeable, and the horror of Colditz Mk 2. that came after this lady. Miss Beaumont her name was. You couldn't imagine a Mr Beaumont.

I entirely accept without reservation what Nathan said about over 16's not being compelled to take part - it is unfortunate that my earlier post mentions him in a less favourable light, though I do, and did, acknowledge he might be acting on a head of departments orders. Whoever's decision it is, it still seems unnecessary to me, as they will all shower anyway. If I were a member of staff, I would challenge the reasoning behind it. Rules were made to be broken - or at least, questioned.

We never had girls at all in senior school. At the time I was indifferent, though looking back on it from this distance, I still do not understand why we still have them. Is single sex education a good thing or not?. I don't know. Depends on the teachers I suppose. We have both an all girls and an all boys school in my area, though the least said about the latter, the better (Royal Liberty). In this day and age it seems a strange anachronism, and I don't think it is even for religious purposes as neither school is denominational. I do understand Muslim schools have their own very strict rules about both sexes being taught separately.

With my skinniness and later my acne, the "difficult" years of being seen minus clothes lasted all the years I had to do it, and to this day, like that blog post that David posted on Thursday, I prefer to remain clothed, even though both my problems are long gone. . It was bad enough having the boys critiques, let alone giggly schoolgirls.

I agree with you I think that nothing really changed in schools till the late 80s, rather than the 70s, Caning was officially banned in 1987, I think, and those teachers who were "into it" exercised their rather tawdry and sometimes, dubious tastes with alacrity until it ended. It was used throughout my school years often for the most paltry reasons. A blot in your "best" exercise" book? a ruler across your knuckles, chewing in class? - the slipper. Upsetting one of the more temperamental teachers - for whatever reason? - , caning. A lot of people thought at the time that it would be the end of civilisation as we know it, perhaps it was for some of the teachers. I think, to compensate some of them became more verbally aggressive, as this was the only trick left to them in their armour, hence the insistence to this day of uniforms and "suitable" length of hair, not too long and not too short, not wearing jewellery or makeup - and that's just the boys.

I also agree with you that the older pupils that Bill saw were probably exercising without shirts at their own volition - it has been a warm week here in the Southern part of Britain this week, though it still wouldn't tempt me - but Craig probably has some potential members of his group. God luck to them - they are doing it out of choice, not compulsion.

Comment by: Russ on 16th February 2024 at 20:10


"I think it's fair to say that some teachers considered themselves a law unto themselves once upon a time. There were the school rules and then there were 'their' rules, and that was a bit clear with one man I had who basically ruled his PE classes I was in by decree, his word was the law."

I think one word sums up the teaching profession (with some notable exceptions) . It is a five letter word, also loved by politicians, civil servants and petty officials, and that word is "Power". The love of bossing people about, telling them what to do and how to do it.

This thing about kit for example, how many posts have we read on here about the school "rules" dictating football shirts, rugby shirts, socks, singlets and/or tee shirts being provided in their prospectus, and the poor kid has ended up just wearing the shorts. The parents have wasted their money, which they might have ill-afforded to lose - and for what?.

I do think the showering thing is more important especially as, getting older you do sweat more and that is a hygiene matter, so any sweat picked up by a tee short will be washed off in the showers afterwards.

It would be nice to think the days of ordering people about are over - but I doubt it. Even in recent times Nathan told us that he still decides to have "shirtless lessons" in his gym. To be entirely fair to him, this might be an edict from one of his superiors, but if I were a head teacher my question would be this: If it is OK to wear a shirt on Monday, why not on Tuesday as well?.

If it is anything like our old school the head was an elderly and I am sure a fair and well-meaning man, and in his day had no doubt been a good teacher (I believe Maths was his speciality), but by the time we were saddled with him, he was a poor old chap in declining health and he delegated everything to his deputy, a rather unpleasant sour little man who suffered from small man syndrome, and his cronies could do as they pleased. He loved power, even when he had delegated power, to a trusted lieutenant - you could see it as he swaggered round the building. He loved to describe himself as a "disciplinarian" . We can only hope that this sort of teacher is now dead or retired, but it can't be guaranteed that their influence hasn't lived on. I am sure, had the headmaster been in better health the regime would have been different - still firm, but without the extra difficulties his deputy allowed to be caused.

1970, the year I was born, and yet for about 7 years from 1975 when I started school until 1982 when I ended primary, almost all my school hall (they didn't really have a gym as such) PE lessons were done shirtless from a very young age when children are rarely self conscious about what they are doing. Then when I went to secondary school from 1982 onwards I actually did less shirtless PE than I did at the lower schools, quite a lot still but not all the while, and it was at that secondary school where the way I looked started to matter, even more so when I was having to get my shirt off in school, not just among boys but sometimes in the presence of girls. Well I had to share the PE at both the lower schools with girls quite a lot of the time and that wasn't much of a big deal but suddenly it becomes something you think a lot about at 13. I was not enthusiastic about being seen by girls at that age with my shirt off, and swimming was mentioned with Ben, but we stopped swimming at school when I was I think 11 or 12. I did not do any at secondary school at all, it was mostly a primary school thing for some reason. I was always surprised that PE in secondary school never involved going swimming at some point.

I was pleased that you finally accepted the explanation of that PE teacher about what pupils over 16 are expected to do in school. I never doubted his answer for a moment. Bill's comment caught my eye and I think what he saw would have caught my eye too, but there's clearly more to that and it's never going to be a regular PE class out like that but a bunch of lads who sound like they might be in training for something who are still at school but a bit older and I saw possibly 16+ and I'm sure each and every one of them was doing what they wanted to and nothing else to it. Going shirtless can be infectious. One does it, then a couple and before you know it a lot of others suddenly find the confidence to do it as well because the others went first. Perhaps there are a lot of secret shirtless runners within all of us, as Craig's comments appear to suggest amongst his adult volunteers. I would definitely take up such a challenge.

I was so used to never wearing tops from such an early age, in school and around the house and outside playing. But that never stopped me having a nervous period about it when I reached my teens, especially among girls at the time for possibly a couple of years from 13 to 15. Boys rarely make direct comments about other boys bodies but girls do. They only got a handful of chances at secondary school but that was more than enough.

I remember watching Grange Hill almost from the start. Someone here asked if they did the shirts and skins lessons in that and someone found one, but I bet they won't find a boys girls PE lesson in that, I never remember that on there.

Even though I was born in 1970, a year that was identified on here as transitional in thinking, I still think many of those teachers who took me were quite old school even well into the 80s actually. There must have been plenty of PE teachers taking lessons in the late 80s who were doing so in the late 60s in school, a lot in the same school and with similar values.

What is notable about my early schooling is that it was almost exclusively done by women, there were no men around at school until I was 8, yet my PE was shirtless, and there were not many men around in my primary, I can only think of three, and most PE was done there under a woman too and once again no shirts for the boys, only our shorts got worn. So this shirtless PE thing is definitely not just a male teacher in secondary school thing at all.

(not Russell Spark, another Russell - last posted 8 Feb 24)


That bit about the year 1970 mentioned by Christopher here seems relevant to me as a boy who was on the actual cusp of that one. I'm 63 today, a young 63 I might add. As the start of the seventies began I was in my first year at middle primary when 1970 began and most of my main schooling was therefore during much of that decade.

Without wishing to repeat myself, just look back to what I said a few days ago but I suppose I have mixed feelings nowadays in some respects. Not surprising as school straddled that 1970 year if the theory has any merit, and it's definitely a good one that makes sense.

I think it's fair to say that some teachers considered themselves a law unto themselves once upon a time. There were the school rules and then there were 'their' rules, and that was a bit clear with one man I had who basically ruled his PE classes I was in by decree, his word was the law.

I think what Bill has seen isn't comparable with others who have spoken of their pasts in normal school PE lessons, such as cross countries stripped down. I think in the case mentioned it seems like a sports focused school in some way where obviously older ones are making decisions for themselves rather than being imposed which accounts for what you saw and the answer the nearby resident gave you, and it was such a very warm February day yesterday I don't blame them. It sounds like a place with a very relaxed and healthy attitude, but not as I say worth comparing to your average unfit 14 year old being sent out to run a few miles in the cold in 1975 perhaps.

I preferred doing PE at my own pace and not the times it started to get seriously competitive in the later years. It was also much better when we got stuck into similar ability groups and worked and played together like that against each other sometimes.

That was a great time Russell Spark. You must have been doing a lot of training beforehand for that. We actually lost the Marathon World record holder this week aged just 24 in a crash, who might have broken the two hour mark at Paris 2024 this summer. It's been a bad week for shocking passings hasn't it.

But it's been a good week for some really good comments on here.

"But even if you are weedy or a fatty I don't think that should simply mean an exemption to shirtless PE which should then only be allowed for the average looking ones. Imagine a PE teacher taking a shirtless class and allowing a fat boy to cover up, what message would that send to him, that he looks too awful to be seen"

With respect to you, Stuart (and I am in full agreement with you about weighing kids at school just to make them feel even more awful - we will have even more of that nannying, with Miss Phillipson and her Teeth-Brushing Lessons!), I don't see WHY any kid needs to do bare-chested PE.


We had it on authority of Paula yesterday that it is not a requirement in Florida - the Sunshine State, one of the hotter parts of the US, so why should it be so here, especially in the North, Scotland and Wales which can get fairly chilly?.

Time we all got into the 21st century. I repeat again any kid happy to do it, fine, let them do it, if they want to, but not at the expense of the rest of their class, as Graeme told us about yesterday.

Ian,
You must have attended the same school as I did! I remember the dreaded ‘belt ‘ only too well but I would never have described it as ‘a highly entertaining spectator sport’. I remember the silence in the class as some poor classmate was on the receiving end- often for only a minor misdemeanour!

Russell
I remember watching the London Marathon on TV and certainly noticing shirtless runners, until recent years.
I myself ran to keep fit until recent years. Early morning, so as I could go shirtless. I can't remember when I first had the courage to risk it, but I do remember the first time shirtless in a hard frost. The wonderful sensation of crisp air against my skin. Happy memories! Astonished looks from passers by - usually in cars.
I never thought seriously about entering a race, but I did check and most made provision for shirtless men.
My view on Christopher's point re the dividing line for attitudes being 1970, which in essence I agree with.
I was at a boys' secondary grammar school in Scotland in the 60's. The Scottish educational system in those days was excellent, but authoritarian and disciplined. We were even proud of our tradition of corporal punishment - teachers, parents and even pupils approved of the approach (although we did not like being on the receiving end, but it was highly entertaining spectator sport). I remember a teacher talking about how the tawse was "improved" in the late forties, by being made heavier and harder - the dreaded Lochgelly.
As a lad you hoped for the milder teachers, but you just had to get through with the strict ones. I had strict English and Technical teachers, very strict in French, and my PE teacher was the severest. But I got through and even found I enjoyed some things in PE - running, swimming, hockey, ropes and anything requiring agility. Even circuits. Rugby and the heavier stuff, no thanks. Being picked for a team, no.
I'm very much with Mr Chips' and Barney's recent comments.
Then of course, the 60's came with attitudes becoming more liberal, less rigid and authoritarian.

Comment by: Christopher on 15th February 2024 at 23:18


I think you are right, Christopher, and I would go further - I think there have been, and will continue to be, changes with the post 2000 students. When you see six foot plus lads with beards, it would be very hard for even the most dictatorial teacher to try to intimidate them in the way our teachers did us, without making themselves look very foolish.

Comment by: Bill on 15th February 2024 at 19:08

It was more like mid April today than mid February like when I ran the London Marathon in that month. I'm certain all the ones you saw did so freely. I don't think you are allowed to run the London Marathon completely shirtless even if you place your number stuck onto your abdomen and back, even if the race is run on a hot one. If a runner was to remove his vest I think he might even be disqualified actually. I ran the race back in April 1996 (2:58:16) and it was actually quite a warm one that year. I only did it once. I achieved my sub three hour first time, couldn't quite believe it.

My theory is that there is a divide in attitudes between men who went to school before 1970 on here and those after that year.

I'm not sure what I must have weighed when I was 14 but I do know that at 16 a friend told me he had hit 10 stone and I thought he was massively overweight! Actually he was just tall, must have been close six feet at the time. I must have been considerably less to think this of him but I don't even remember standing on scales in the home or seeing any. Common sense and visuals can tell you if you are either significantly under or overweight, just the same as looking at fresh food, I don't need a date to tell me when it's any good, I need my eyes and hands to feel it.

One thing I do not approve of that does go on nowadays is forcibly weighing some quite young children in school. That is not the job of the school and could definitely cause problems if you are out of the so called acceptable range either way. I've had a friend's son weighed at the age of eight and then sent a letter home to say he was slightly overweight. I looked at this boy myself and he was no such thing in any way.

But even if you are weedy or a fatty I don't think that should simply mean an exemption to shirtless PE which should then only be allowed for the average looking ones. Imagine a PE teacher taking a shirtless class and allowing a fat boy to cover up, what message would that send to him, that he looks too awful to be seen.

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind I think, I really do, it's the only way to acceptance of everyone whatever they look like. My class didn't allow the fat boy to cover up on account of his obesity at the time, and it didn't allow many of the 'weeds' as they were known to do so either.

Comment by: Jason on 15th February 2024 at 04:32


We overlapped by one minute this morning, I see Jason, so proof that Alan isn't Jason and Jason isn't Alan. I read that blog by Tom over lunch, and you have to hand it to the Americans (and I am not soft-soaping Pauline, if she is still reading - I hope she is) - they can discuss, without embarrassment, and in a very matter-of-fact way, we couldn't , about what might seem strange personal hang-ups. It did cheer me up to read that so many people had the same issues as me. A few on HW have been open about it, I know, but you sense the derision in some circles who don't "get" it.

A couple of months ago I mentioned what I had seen driving around Dunstable where I do some part time flower delivering for a friends flower shop. Well I saw it again this afternoon not long after lunchtime beside Queensbury Academy School in Dunstable when I must have seen at the very least 30 boys running along the area, off to the vicinity of Buttercup Lane area, and at least two thirds of them, I'd say about 20 of them were doing this bare chested in the open public with two older men going with them, dressed. They all looked extremely competent at running and very trim and were going at a decent pace from what I could make out. I was on the road stationary at the time. When I went to a nearby door not far from this school I asked the man who took the flowers in about it and he told me he thought they were about 16 or 17 years old and part of a sixth form running group or something like that. So clearly running like that is back in vogue at this place. But interesting all the same and I have to admit they looked healthy, so well done to them for that.

That is amazing, considering what you said Jason, the subject matter, and the time of day/night, and timing, that you said that just one minute after Alan. You literally both clicked at the same time. Thanks to the IP we can see all is okay though but interesting you felt you had to cover yourself there Jason, that was quite amazing to notice all the same. An interesting link. I'm just pleased that all my boys were happy in their skin enough never to worry about these things with anyone at all.

I most certainly was not describing you personally as pampered by your parents Alan, how could I possibly know that? But I will let it go as you have admitted to your over sensitivity so that's alright by me. What I was writing was a general take and didn't even mention you directly, just well meaning advice which didn't need to be re-interpreted into a psychoanalysis of your own self which was not the intention.




Comment by: Jason on 15th February 2024 at 04:32
Bit of an early one for me. I promise I'm not Alan in disguise though.

One for the shy boys out there.

https://www.yourotherbrothers.com/2016/03/15/why-im-afraid-to-take-off-my-shirt/

IP Logged: *.***.95.147

Comment by: Alan on 15th February 2024 at 04:31
Comment by: Paula - B.S Health & Education, Physical Education - Florida University (1977) on 14th February 2024 at 21:15

It seems America is much more advanced in it's thinking, Paula, and has consideration for pupils. I have said on here many times that if a lad wishes to take his shirt off, that is fine.

An interesting batch of posts last evening

IP Logged: ***.**.3.244

This from Ben here recently, 'Of course some lads were a lot more confident, there was one in my class who would regularly 'forget' his PE vest and apologise rather half-heartedly. The teacher didn't seem too bothered and the end result was that he did a lot of PE bare chested. I'd guess some others here might have done the same or knew someone else who did?'



You've just jogged my mind on something myself here. One of our PE years when I was somewhere around about thirteen had three or four boys who constantly came in with reasons for not having the expected vest on we wore mostly, and one of our PE teachers would allow them to just do class without it. Perhaps it was deliberate and they liked it, never thought about it, but it never seemed like an attempt to not do PE because they had the other kit on them. So one day another PE teacher came into our class, the main man as it were in PE, and asked my PE teacher why there were two or three boys not wearing their PE vests and asked if it had happened before. We had to stop what we were doing while this conversation was going on. I remember listening and wondering why it really mattered so much. We were all supposed to look the same for PE at my school at that age (this was about 1980/1 time). In the end he told our teacher to "just get their vest off then" and went, and our teacher yapped "you heard what he said" and we all had to pull our vest off over our heads and do PE like that for the whole term. That went down very badly I can tell you, when our school had an actual kit and because of a few boys who kept failing to bring it like they should we all had to bow to them in that way just to keep the main PE teacher happy that class was being done the same for everyone.

The school then ordered some new vests and everyone got one and they must have over ordered or something because there were quite a few spares so following term when we were back in our PE vests again one or two of these boys would sometimes still turn up without, just refusing to learn anything but they always had a vest given to them. It's quite possible therefore that they wanted to do PE bare chested but couldn't. But even though we had vests for PE in usual circumstances at all other times other than when I described, we took them off on a regular basis for skins and shirts games and at other points. For example, I remember when we used to do the rope climbing we were told to take our vest off before climbing it for some reason. The oddities of PE at times.

Often when you have certain thoughts like you did Ben, and Alan and others, you think you are the only one having them, especially if nobody else is much speaking about them. It's now clear to me that males, at all ages, not just school age, have such sensations. You said your heart sank, that's an interesting reaction for example. But obviously school is where you first discover these feelings about yourself and as we all know and I've described above in my own case, school was rarely about choices, it was about being told what to do and doing it, and that applies to many other things you might not have enjoyed as well. But PE does have that extra special place in most people's memories for the unique reasons associated with it that could very visibly affect people.

Bit of an early one for me. I promise I'm not Alan in disguise though.

One for the shy boys out there.

https://www.yourotherbrothers.com/2016/03/15/why-im-afraid-to-take-off-my-shirt/

Comment by: Paula - B.S Health & Education, Physical Education - Florida University (1977) on 14th February 2024 at 21:15



It seems America is much more advanced in it's thinking, Paula, and has consideration for pupils. I have said on here many times that if a lad wishes to take his shirt off, that is fine, if they have the confidence to do that, but - certainly in my time - virtually no consideration was shown. Britain tries to pretend it is like America - a 24/7 economy, but in truth, we are still like a village, with early closing day, where trains stop at weekends for engineering works for weeks at a time, and half an inch of snow brings the entire country to a standstill and so on. Thanks for showing a more tolerant attitude is possible. Over here, with all due respect to them, a lot of readers on here have said in effect, "it did me no harm" and seem aggrieved that modern girls and lads might get it just a bit "easier" now. The fact is we were not subjected to the almost constant testing and mock exams they have now, from a very early age. In Britain we seem to have adopted an almost "military" style, of PE teaching, but the irony of it was, that conscription, forcing people into the army at 18, stopped over 60 years ago, but this sort of regime carried ion in schools into the 80s and 90s. It might have been useful in the days when a lad was forced into military service at 18, to "toughen them up", but I see no reason for it to be persisted in thirty years later.

I wish I had been American, and living on the West Coast!. It would have done my musical career no harm at all.



Comment by: Chapman on 14th February 2024 at 20:34


I agree with your comments. As regards me at 14 - 6 stone, 5ft 4 ins, terrible acne (face and chest) red skin every rib showing (one of my nicknames at that time was "TinRibs" also used by that charmer of a teacher, R, in a pejorative sneering way: - me at 18 - 8 stone 5ft 9 ins, acne there still, but clearing up. I was much more confident and never bullied - except by a trumpet playing bandleader who worshipped Maynard Ferguson and thought every trumpet player should be able to play C above C, without even a warm-up, but he did that to everyone, and he could never turn violent. We all laughed at it and treated it as a joke.

Comment by: Stephen on 14th February 2024 at 18:09


Like you, our showers were more or less cold - tepid, at best, I suppose is the best description. I am sure the plumbing system was as old as the school itself. We had that curious system where the pipes and radiators operated due to the "hot" water running through them, like the system used in Victorian greenhouses, They were never warm enough for an old building though, simply because, unlike a greenhouse, there was too much brick and not enough glass, to capitalize on the sun's warmth, but I understood that, because the building had been earmarked for closure for years and it would have been a waste of money to install a modern system. They were promising to close it the year I arrived. It only got torn down, and turned into a supermarket after I had left - every little helps!

I have to say the "right you have two minutes to shower" jazz was just about control again. They didn't give a toss whether you showered properly or not, it was just the fact they could tell you to do it. Just as long as your hair was wet....The watching us at all times, in shower and changing room was also part of our experience. I hope your teachers motives were not the same as ours, Stephen.

An interesting batch of posts last evening

THIS THIS THIS!

<what I couldn't stand was being surrounded by others (I was an only child which probably explains a lot), and being screamed and shouted at like Lionel Jeffries in Two Way Stretch (as Prison Officer Crout) - they wanted you under the bloody things then gave you two minutes before he was screeching at you to get out.>



The shower hustle and bustle as I would call it, you had to be quick as a flash once back to change, especially if your next lesson and teacher was waiting almost immediately, be out of everything you had on rapid or get a teacher in your face and send you packing in with the other lads. We got back out when they decided we were done, that could be quicker with some teachers than others. We all had to have wet hair on the way out and be dripping before picking a towel up again.

PE was 65 minutes long on the timetable. It moved around the day while I had it. I preferred it in afternoon. Without an immediate follow on lesson there was less 'shower hassle to get a move on' but it was always a bit of a free for all. Believe it or not there were boys in my school PE class who actually liked to bag the same place in the shower under the same exact shower head every time. How do I know this, well I was one of them!

Gymnastics comes from the Greek, to exercise naked, well you learn something new every day. Never knew that, although I did know that the ancient Greek Olympics long before the modern ones were competed naked. Quite a spectacle I'm sure. To go back to that time and see just how fit and muscly these men really were at such a time would be fascinating I'm sure. Time machine anyone? But women put to death if they watched the men, is that some kind of ancient prudery or something going on. A history lesson beckons I think, going back a bit further than the few decades on here.

Just to take the year of what appears your graduation Paula, a year I was in school, and believe me here in the UK at that time PE teachers very much did make boys go shirtless whether they liked it or not as I was on the receiving end. I was lukewarm about it I suppose is the best way to describe it. I've rarely gone shirtless in company since the days of school PE, possibly a couple of holidays briefly in a quiet beach but that's it really.

Body image. That didn't matter one iota here in the UK, no matter how low your body image was, how crushingly shy or self critical or conscious you were about yourself, how scared you might even be about it, they still made you do it without a second thought to anyone's actual feelings about themselves. That was the times.

I realise that there has recently been a more up to date current teacher of PE come along on here and state he expects shirtless PE at times and asks for it but at least he did seem fully aware of possible feelings those pupils might have and sounded like a potential listener. I'm not sure that applied in my time.

Chapman, the 18 year old me had a 28 inch waist and was less than 10 stone and now I've got a 32 inch waist and am just under 12 stone, and am probably happier with the latter actually and have managed to avoid the dreaded manboob appearance or belly overhanging the belt look too. I'm happy with the way I look in middle age. I've seen some I was in school with who were very fit lean boys much like the one in the red shorts in the Grange Hill clip that someone here said they looked like and they have doubled in size and I wonder just how that happened to them. Food probably. Too much.

The recent description of being screamed at to go showering and then get out, that mentioned Lionel Jeffries was different to mine, once in we could spend a good while in if we wanted. But they made you get in, I think PE teachers must have been on a bonus system for how many boys they could get showered they seemed so keen to see we all did it, and like I just said to Paula regards the shirtless PE she spoke about, here in the UK the school shower in the year I mentioned was just about universally across the land in all places mandatory for all school children between the ages of 11 and 16, whether you liked your body image and were deeply shy and unhappy about it or not. Nobody cared much or would dream to talk about your self esteem on body image issues. But we all went through the same. There cannot be a man in the UK who is aged 40 or above who has never shared a communal shower with a group of people, primarily at school, it must be almost 100%. It seems that even the shirtless PE is likely to have been close to 100% as well, covering those who always did it to those who might have done skins games or those who did it just now and then for other reasons, leaving swimming aside which was also mentioned by you Paula.

"I was quite unconfident in PE and had to take my shirt off, so I understood Ben's points. I certainly don't object to it and having had to do so. It was just my own personality. But I always became much more confident when we swam at school. I wonder Ben if you felt similar in that regard?"

Interesting point Mark made about swimming and yes, I'd completely agree. For me it definitely felt far less a big deal to take my top off for swimming lessons than it did for PE in the gym. Firstly I suppose it seemed more normal, I'd been to swimming pools and beaches before and didn't wear more than a pair of trunks or shorts.
The other point of course was that every boy was dressed the same way for swimming. In the gym though, we didn't have any lessons with everyone bare chested, so it could feel quite unfair to be chosen for skins in that regard. I remember quite early on I'd had consecutive PE lessons bare chested and thought surely I'd get to keep my vest on next time! So my heart sank when the teacher said 'skins' yet again.
Of course some lads were a lot more confident, there was one in my class who would regularly 'forget' his PE vest and apologise rather half-heartedly. The teacher didn't seem too bothered and the end result was that he did a lot of PE bare chested. I'd guess some others here might have done the same or knew someone else who did?

Hi, I'm a B.S in Health & Education and also Physical Education at the Uni of Florida in 1977.

This from an old account I used elsewhere I'd like to share from the Stateside perspective right now. Your schools over there in the UK are known to have been very different to ours but what I say here only relates to my county and not nationally across the entire country where rules are vastly different from place to place.

Physical Education teachers don’t MAKE boys go shirtless. If they get overheated during exercise they might be allowed to remove their shirt, depending on the regulations of their school. But it is unlikely that a boy who was shy or had a poor body image would be required to take his shirt off.

Males in general do not wear shirts while swimming, but if a boy was shy and wanted to wear a shirt that was tight fitting, or wanted to wear the type of swim suit that competitive swimmers wear (with a tank top) NO ONE WOULD CARE.

Most schools have some kind of uniform or dress code for physical education classes. Where as girls participating in sports frequently wear leotards or sports bras. These don’t leave much to the imagination.

To take this a step further the word Gymnastics comes from the Greek, which means to exercise naked. Women were not allow to watch or attend these competitions on pain of death. Is that fair? Who knows?

As my husband and partner in our gymnastics school used to tell our gymnasts “Life’s not fair and then you die. Go to Heaven and learn to fly. Find out that there’s a tax on flying.”

Lack of body confidence is very common. You really shouldn't care what others think though. If you really are that anxious about it, then do something about it. Go down the gym, get yourself toned up and you're confidence will grow very quickly indeed. I know, been there and done it.

I do wish PE teachers would understand this point though. Just saying the few words above to those with confidence issues could be a big help I'm sure. Boys like this were not alone, they were everywhere. School could be unforgiving for those who had these confidence issues in the past and some PE teachers clearly just made things worse for some.

Perhaps a light hearted question for the forum men here.

What was your own schooldays body like at say the age of 14, or maybe 18 just after school, and how does that PE or younger body compare to the man and shape you are in now? I'm one of those who has remained the same weight and size almost all my adult life remarkably without having had to try very hard other than regular but not excessive exercise. But I overcame the lack of body confidence I had at school mainly regarding the use of the nude showering rules quite fast. Being forced into a situation like that made me face my fears and overcome them rather effectively I thought.

Comment by: Chris G on 14th February 2024 at 15:50
"It's getting very difficult to follow the thread of many of the recent "he said, she said" type of conversations, where previous postings are dissected and analysed at length and to death. If you are quoting what a previous poster has written, I wonder if you could try to indicate this, either by enclosing quoted material in "quotation marks", beginning and end, or by indicating the start of a quote by showing the author, as in a theatrical script."


I like your timing Chris G and the latest post that came through from Stephen in the batch of three comments along with yours does exactly as you ask to perfection!


I actually think it's a shame that posts are not individually numbered, not just by IP address, but in chronological order like many forums. We know there have currently been 6043 posts here but not what number they are. Dates are checkable back but a numbered comment has benefits too.


I am pleased that some liked the Flickr photos of my own school gym I was able to provide on 6th February from Filton High in the mid 70's, I got as much bare chested PE in gym as it was possible to get at that time. I noted the points others made about why the photo may have been taken at the time.

Alan you said,

'what I couldn't stand was being surrounded by others (I was an only child which probably explains a lot), and being screamed and shouted at like Lionel Jeffries in Two Way Stretch (as Prison Officer Crout) - they wanted you under the bloody things then gave you two minutes before he was screeching at you to get out.'


You should have had a teacher who timed you, like I said two weeks ago,

'our teacher would get his stopwatch out and time what I think was something like 2 minutes 30 seconds after we went in before anyone was let back out again to dry and dress. Watched constantly and often told to shut up while we did so because of the noise. Sometimes the water went almost completely cold on us, meaning more noise, but we were not let out until the stopwatch said so according to our teacher. A bit over the top I agree, nothing wrong with just letting everyone come and go and get on with it but that's how it was for me in 1974'

Can I just say what a beautifully written comment that was from Ethan that you picked out TimH. Classy from both of you. It took me back to seeing a photo artist a few years ago who would gather large groups of people together in public spaces and take pictures. I always disliked it, simply for the association those large numbers had with the things you both describe.

Tim, you picked up Tony on a comment about some gym photos. While I agree that Flickr is indeed a historical record I think the point was missed there maybe, as Flickr didn't exist in the time they were taken, so the pictures must have been used for another purpose. Possibly a school magazine or something at the time. I'm sure it was all above board though, the photos a good snapshot of what was an ordinary day's gym lesson.

I was quite unconfident in PE and had to take my shirt off, so I understood Ben's points. I certainly don't object to it and having had to do so. It was just my own personality. But I always became much more confident when we swam at school. I wonder Ben if you felt similar in that regard?

It's nice to get answers to questions that get posed. Such as the one from the Mumsnet forum about the 15 year old son who didn't want to swim shirtless that never received a final conclusion after the initial question was asked, which I wrote about on 1st Feb here. Also Yorkshire Dad and the change in rules at his school would be a nice one to get more about as others have said.

There was a comment or two about pampering parents. No teenage boy wants his mum and dad interfering in things much on anything. I saw that Nathan's last post said he'd had some parents approach him about PE matters to do with showers but not any of the children. Did anyone have any parents like that who caused a fuss over things while you were in school about PE then or were questioning things? I think I once gave a note to a PE teacher when I fell off my bike on the way home from school the night before and bruised myself badly and was let off not just that lesson but the one after it too, not at my parents request but my actual PE teacher insisted on it.

It's getting very difficult to follow the thread of many of the recent "he said, she said" type of conversations, where previous postings are dissected and analysed at length and to death. If you are quoting what a previous poster has written, I wonder if you could try to indicate this, either by enclosing quoted material in "quotation marks", beginning and end, or by indicating the start of a quote by showing the author, as in a theatrical script.

Ben,

Thanks for that answer. I think I can well remember boys like you in school PE lessons Ben. In some ways it's quite endearing. I have to admit that although scribbling a number on your upper body in biro was a bit naff, I didn't enjoy wearing scratchy yellow bibs when it was my turn and just preferred the no shirt look because it was more comfortable than an awkward bib just to separate teams. I just don't know why they didn't ask us to bring vests or tea-shirts when we needed to do that. They made team selections a bigger deal than they needed to be sometimes, but that is what happens in a school where all boys go shirtless automatically on arrival for PE at the gym. It makes doing team games a bit difficult among a couple of dozen plain white skinned regular looking boys, but I do recall as we got older some size differences became more apparent and also build. Some had a growth spurt in months, others stayed stick thin and others seemed to become generally a bit bigger later on. Heights started to become more different among us. Watching others the same age change over a four year period can be interesting to compare with, I found it so. Few ever dare admit it, even on here I see, but tell me a boy who didn't secretly like to compare himself to the others as well where it mattered most. That little glance down and back up again, pretending not to notice the obvious in the shower for instance when we were all doing it really. Why deny it. That was an education in itself to me. I don't know about you or others. Everyone has always got a story to tell about school and showering I've found, if they are over forty. Literally nobody forgets them or how it happened to them. Although I thought the Grange Hill scenes of PE and changing rooms and showers were very mild really, nothing too terrible.

There was one thing that Alan said, and it was about being hassled to hurry up and get out of your PE kit and run into the showers quickly, yes, that was my experience too, and as soon as you'd done it, as soon as you'd managed to actually get wet you were being hassled and hurried to get back out again and dressed before you'd even had a proper shower with some teachers, who seemed to just want you to be put through the situation of doing it rather than actually genuinely showering properly. I got that sometimes and it's very relatable.

I did enjoy your line Sean, "I consented to showers and shirtless PE at school. I consented to them being mandatory!" That was funny. That's the kind of line you could just hear coming out of the mouth of an exasperated PE teacher at some point isn't it.

But I still don't think anyone in school in our time, or now like Nathan, should actually have to feel they should justify themselves if they wish to take a class without shirts or make them shower. I just don't. I saw somebody on that Mumsnet chat that got linked on here a couple of weeks ago and someone wrote "My body, my choice". That is meaningless sloganising. In school as a child you do as you are told. Call me old fashioned. We have got far too many young and overly entitled young people around nowadays who think they can dictate everything and can't be told anything.

Comment by: David on 13th February 2024 at 18:23


I was using my work computer when I wrote my last reply, which for some reason always makes my name more "formal" Windows 11, worse than Windows 10, which I use "indoors".

I think what I was saying was quite clear. If I may so say so you have decided I was "pampered" as a kid (far from the truth, but I let that pass) and that I regard myself as having victim status. Again not true, but even amateur psychology can be interesting - to those providing it.

I an not making "excuses for anything".

If there is a genuine point about anything you feel that I have not been clear on, then by all means say what it is. Frankly, I sense some antipathy in your response to my posting, and I am not inclined , to subject the readers on here to the sort of slanging matches we had towards the end of 2023, But please do not presume to think you know anything about my background. You have made a couple of assumptions which are erroneous.