Burnley Grammar School

Comment by: Neil on 29th January 2024 at 01:34

Neil - feel free to digress - I agree with you entirely over World War 3 - I will come back to that. You said in your message:


"Did anybody really ever see a boy at school with such a terrible body or physique that they thought it should be kept covered up, I never did and accept we come in all shapes and sizes and none are right or wrong, they just are what they are."

You are right of course, but we are speaking as adults, from the viewpoint of adults today. Were we so understanding then, between 11 - 17?. I remember two lads who I was with during my school days - one I have mentioned before - he was a lad that had a serious abdominal operation as a baby which left a very large scar from his chest down to his navel - he got called all kinds of unkind things and he was very uncomfortable. I might add the teacher did not nothing to discourage it, and if he was annoyed with him, used one of the terms himself - he was a charmer, as I have indicated before. . I daresay the lads who made his life a misery back then, if they remember the many incidents at all, would feel deeply ashamed of themselves now, as adults, if they were confronted over it - or I hope they would. We had another lad in our class who was Jewish. There was, of course, a slight anatomical difference between him and us, and again, the same loud mouthed lad used terms, which, now would be considered highly anti-Semitic, and rightly so. Again I am sure the lads who did it would now be appalled to think of themselves as fifty somethings, as the crude loudmouths they were back then. I didn't do it, because I had my issues, but kids are insensitive and do insult, and I was no angel and I got my own back in different ways (never "volunteering" for example). I am not nearly so nice as Hugh and Andy think I am! :-)

Can I suggest that how we are now, today, in no way reflects how we were when we were that young?


As regards WW3: what angers me is that the wars since the Falklands have all been inspired by political pygmies who think it will raise their stock, and win them elections, if they find an excuse for war. I think Mrs T was wrong to instigate a full blown war on Argentina over the Falklands before strong diplomacy was seriously tried, we will all remember Blair's dodgy dossier and the "WMD in 45 minutes' to justify Iraq, and to look "Churchillian" (in my view more Sarah Churchill than Winston) Cameron tried it on with Syria but was voted down. Now Rishi and Keir want their chance to be Churchill. They really shouldn't - they are not built for it, and whoever was?.

Ironically, every day it seems, we have rubber boats landing on the Kent Coast, virtually full of young men in their 20s and 30s , i.e. of fighting age, very few women or children. It will be interesting to see if this slows down if (God forbid) we do find ourselves at war. My own feeling this is a bit of pre-election sabre rattling, (it's going to be a dirty one) being urged on by 24 hour news channels who have run out of soap gossip. I sincerely hope it blows over as suddenly as it started. It would be appalling if a senile old man in the White House could induce us into yet more pointless adventures, as GW Bush did with Iraq.

Nice to be able to get away from the classroom for a time and I agree 100% with the rest of your message: especially:.


"It's a sick joke when you have various governments that have gutted the professional armed services in this country to next to nothing and then suddenly turn around and say we must get the civilians made to do the job after all."


Message from Orson 26th January 2024 11.54

Orson I sympathize with your situation at the time. I will say no more, as you might have noticed, anything I say (in some quarters)will be taking down in writing and may be used in evidence against me!

Good to see some positive comments on the whole bareskin running and a desire from one or two to give it a go. Definitely do.

I've done a bareskin run this lunchtime with 4 other men, we managed to fit in a quick half hour between our various jobs nearby. It did not feel cold.

Yesterday we did a larger group from our whatsapp group and gained 14 runners at 2pm and it was remarkable how good it felt to run like this in the month of January, we did a whole 10 miles. Most of us didn't even have a top with us tucked around us so would have had no choice but to freeze or turn back if it had been that bad. I didn't even feel cold and was actually sweating at the end of it. In late January, outside for the best part of a couple of hours without a shirt on! We all found it to be fine. But it's not exactly cold is it for the time of year just now.

But what might interest people on here is that we don't get weird comments shouted at us even in January as a group going along. We actually get smiles quite a lot and friendly looks, even if one or two might think we are mad as hell in private thoughts.

We've now got 24 men on our whatsapp group, one or two with self esteem and mental health issues they want to address in a different way amongst others who can give them support along the way. Walking is always meant to be good for this of course. One of them has told me just how he cannot believe the benefits it has given him on the three occasions he has come out with us so far.

If someone starts slowing we tend to slow up and try to run as a generally close group together as much as possible despite various running strengths. Sometimes we will even stop for a breather on the longer run like Sunday afternoon. We stick a water bottle down our shorts!

If you are looking for a new years resolution, doing something well outside of your comfort zone and have a need to improve your self esteem and overall wellbeing, mindfulness and health then I strongly suggest giving it a go. You could of course just go walking or running the normal way but amongst our group the general consensus is that bareskin running, with a bare chest absolutely completely shirtless out in the open air seems to hold even better benefits for those of us that are doing it.

As I've said before, the ages range from late 20's to 60's and any ages are welcome, and people are doing it from all walks of life, there is no set type in our group and many of us didn't even really know each other at first. I'd love to double the number this year if I could and who knows where from there on.

When I first took this on I didn't have especially high expectations of the appeal of such a thing. Many of the guys on the group never went to schools where they were made to run shirtless cross countries like some had to do on here.

Bareskin, or barechested physical education in childhood has been getting a bad vibe from certain quarters on here I know that and understand the reasons why that is but as adults we have found it to be a great way of meeting new people, getting out, feeling healthy in both mind and body. Who can argue with that.

I'm not convinced schools are in on the bareskin cross country running craze just yet despite what I read a few weeks back here unless these are set aside groups away from regular PE. It's fair to say that whatever we might think, schools are not the same as they were thirty, forty, fifty or sixty years ago but am quite prepared to believe that some boys might be running at school in this way but only voluntarily in the same way that all those in our group are doing so as volunteers.

Perhaps the most interesting thing of the lot worth ending on here is that out of every one of the 24 men who have joined our group so far not one single person has chosen to drop out having given it a go. Everyone has now done it at least a couple of times. I had expected some immediate drop outs and it didn't happen.

Comment by: TimH on 28th January 2024 at 19:12


Oh dear!: You will note, Tim, that I put quotation marks round that piece about vHI in my post, and, as I recall I wrote "from that article I cited".. That is because it was a quote from within the article I had provided for Captain Bligh. I had hoped he would have bothered to read it, instead he used it to make some more extremely libelous remarks against me , which I doubt a man who claims to be a professional would do, even hiding in anonymity Ad hominem attacks look somewhat cowardly when a person hides their identity. I wonder if he would dare do it and provide his full name?. I suppose. in retirement. time as an ex sea dog drags, and I am only happy I can provide his twilight years with some raison d'etre not to "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light" *. It is the only excuse I can think of for his sordid allegation., which I will not dignify by commenting on.

I still think one third is a significant figure, and I can remember some lads being scared of heights, specially in the early years of secondary school.

(*Dylan Thomas, - the rest was me)

Far too sensible for this forum David in this day and age. You are about to find that out I bet you. Just wait. Of course you're essentially right but it seems too many are scared to actually say it aloud nowadays. A weirdo and a pervert it most certainly does not make - a rounded grown up sensible and confident person more likely.

In my view the mature common sense schools are those that still, such as Nathan's to name one here, go the full compulsory showering ask after PE and those that require or sometimes tell the guys to do a bit of PE or even all of it in the gym without the top, that's not body shaming that's just saying so what, you've got the same body under a bit of fabric as anyone else and what have you got to be concerned about.

Did anybody really ever see a boy at school with such a terrible body or physique that they thought it should be kept covered up, I never did and accept we come in all shapes and sizes and none are right or wrong, they just are what they are.

I should think we'll be needing all those very militaristic PE lessons coming back quite soon that Alan talks of now across the UK as it seems we are now talking of citizens armies and goodness knows how this one suddenly out of nowhere came back into the equation but the dreaded conscription word, which even shocked the life out of me to start hearing and even more so when I saw a news programme where all four contributors thought it should come back and be compulsory.

What do they know that we don't? Even back in the days of the 4 minute warning and cold war at it's height we youngsters got a bit scared at times that we'd be simply wiped out in an instant without much warning but the kind of talk we've had in recent days didn't seem to be doing the rounds much back then.

I'd fight for my own nation, the UK any day, but like hell would I do so for someone else's or expect my kids to be grabbed by the govermnent and heaved off to fight someone else's problem, Vietnam style. Those days are surely long gone.

It's a sick joke when you have various governments that have gutted the professional armed services in this country to next to nothing and then suddenly turn around and say we must get the civilians made to do the job after all.

Sorry I digress.

I'm a father to five grown up children, four boys and a girl, all now over forty. When the boys were young they all did varying sports both in and out of school.

I used to help out in a youth capacity for a couple of years while my own ones were involved in mostly football and athletics. I saw a couple of my own sons and their mates taking showers, none asked me to keep out of sight, I watched what was going on but nothing more than that. I was okay with other men seeing my sons who we knew. Nobody was prudish about any of it or tried to hide away.

My sons all had to begin compulsory showering in PE at primary aged only 8. Maybe that helped for later on.

Now what I am going to day might not be too popular but I firmly believe that there was nothing wrong with those days. I actually think there is a lot of benefit to exposing youngsters in school to group nudity as soon as possible to get hang ups out the way. I think that should start in primary but eleven at the latest and that it should definitely be compulsory for everyone to do. Mine all did so compulsory, the daughter too, and there are no complaints from me and none from any of them that I have ever heard. It may may not be typical of everyone but that's my view and I'm expressing it.

Alan - your 03.35 post didn't mention vHI.

To quote: From that article I cited: "A milder, related form of the condition is called vHI, or visual height intolerance, which up to one-third of the population has. This condition impacts people much less and not many people seek help for it."
- although I saw this when I checked your URL for the acrophobia article.

Hugh. I take it you didn't read the article, and just used this as an excuse for yet another personal attack. Just remember that you are not talking to a junior rating now, so stop the bluster. It doesn't impress me, and try and at least be civil. Where is that old bedside manner?.You said 6% worldwide - this British article suggest it was 5/6% of BRITAIN, or British subjects.

From that article I cited: "A milder, related form of the condition is called vHI, or visual height intolerance, which up to one-third of the population has. This condition impacts people much less and not many people seek help for it."

One third is not that small a number is it?

The final paragraph is just a rehash of what somebody else wrote. Plagiarism is not classy, especially for a "doctor".

Now can we please stop this nonsense?, however boorish you get you will not frighten me away.

P.E at school seemed very dictatorial. I can remember a somewhat scary man who I met in my early days at the big school, the usual style suburban home counties all abilities comprehensive. It's really quite true what Orson says about short memories staying with you, it's the same with me as someone who had my sixtieth birthday at Christmas just gone. I can still remember many lines teachers of all subjects used to come out with.

The scary PE teacher actually meant to scare us I think. I don't think I imagined it. It was all part of creating that first impression and making sure it stuck with you for future reference. It worked on me. He gathered us all fresh in our school uniforms in the changing room before the first lesson and i remember us all being cramped against each other with bags and bodies, shiny shoes on, blazers and ties and feeling very apprehensive indeed. There didn't seem to be a great deal of warmth or pleasure to see a group of new boys he was going to work with, not at first anyway.

He was full of explaining rules. He kept saying "at this school". The one that got me was, and yes I can literally remember every word of it al this time later to perfection. "at this school you will shower whether you like it or not, starting today, and I don't want any excuses or any notes coming from any of your parents about it to me".

A few more bits of information and then it was "get out of your uniforms quickly, anyone brought their P.E vest?". Quite a few hands went up including mine. "Don't bother, you do P.E with me without that, you'll go without when I take you" and so we did. Another teacher always allowed us our P.E vest but we rarely had him. Footwear was never a regular gym option either whoever we had.

I disliked this teacher despite his slight mellowing as the years went on and he got to know us but his basic attitude just never changed and was accepted by not just us at school in his class but clearly by everyone he worked alongside who must have known what he was like.

Luckily for me I did not allow this to put me off enjoying keeping physically active in various ways, swimming, running, cycling, skiing and even some rowing after school and was not somebody who had some of the fears expressed on earlier pages but know he made many lives I shared at school less than happy while under his tutoring.

I ended up running one of the early London Marathons in a sub three hour time, I bet my P.E teacher couldn't have done that. I did run sirtless at school but only with the teacher I mentioned who did it with us that way but others we went out in shirts. Now I'm sixty I've been reading the comments on the new bareskin craze and wouldn't hesitate to give it a go. I saw the comment that was made a few weeks ago that less confident men have given it a go feeling safe in numbers doing so. If you are one of those types at least try it once it might just surprise you. I was okay with it at school but know others hated it.

Alan on 28th January 2024 at 03:35

Well, that didn’t take long did it but Alan is on 24 hour watch for posts he can be nasty about however the article Alan cites confirms exactly what I said, an average of 6% of people world wide but the tone of Alan’s post would suggest I was wrong when actually I was accurate – in so far as world wide statistics can be accurate but let’s not let truth get in the way of Alan being nasty to someone he has a deep rooted dislike for as a result of calling out his dysfunctional behaviour and who also dared to like exercise including rope climbing as a boy.

Of course the major difference here is that had I made my post last night in times past, by now it would be buried under a series of accusations about me, each one nastier than the last and making up things I had never said but now that can’t happen because as Original Andy (who I am not and never have been no matter what ridiculous claims Alan has made in the past) has been kind enough to point out, the source of all that nastiness has been exposed as Alan and Original Andy made a very convincing case which I and others have agreed with.

Alan of course by how own admission wishes sixteen year old children were adults and even attempted to make an utterly ridiculous case that they were, he leers at school children at the bus stop outside his window and employs sixteen to eighteen year old boys in his business doing goodness only knows what but it has a very nasty smell about it.

Comment by Hugh 27/1/24 1631

Up to 6% in the UK, alone, actually, but it is quite a common fear - perhaps you should consult the BMA for guidance but in my own amateur way, allow me:

https://cpdonline.co.uk/knowledge-base/mental-health/what-is-acrophobia/

The kind of things that Orson described happened to me at school too, in my case in the swimming pool where we had a couple of boys both pull off each others swim trunks while the teacher was out the room and they kept them off and teacher didn't even notice for at least 15 minutes. He was furious but we all found it so funny when he finally twigged. This was a private boarding school mind you, not a regular day comprehensive school. Nobody gave a toss about being seen with nothing on. No lad should be. Who cares, why don't secondary schools manage to give boys the same kind of confidence that private schools seem to manage? I remember in 1982 we were more concerned with not being seen wearing trousers that looked like old style 70s flairs flapping around our ankles which became a bit of a thing for a while, not worrying about wearing not much in PE.

I also enjoyed rope climbing at school but then I also had a career as a medic in the navy in my earlier life where fitness was paramount and indeed one of my major jobs in the navy alongside treatment of those who were injured or unwell was also fitness testing and rope climbing was part of that. Fitness testing was all encompassing, everything from doing physicals through to observing the PTs putting guys through their paces in the gym and outside.

Just to correct an error posted earlier concerning fear of heights, to quote:
Alan on 27th January 2024 at 03:32: ‘people who are scared of heights - a very common fear’

Well if it’s a very common fear perhaps Alan could enlighten us as to why it is suffered by on average 6% of people world wide. Then again, I suspect this is Alan posting a claim for which he has no foundation just to back up his dislike of rope climbing and his claim that ‘I have always felt it a fairly useless pastime’.

He is of course entitled to believe that but not to make false claims about it and how many people would be scared of doing it because they are scared of heights. He has been shown up in the last couple of weeks as the source of so many nasty posts here, he should not get away with making false claims about anything.

Robert Coulson - Teacher 1967-2009 on 27th January 2024 at 11:42

You make extremely valid points. Equally, if communal male nudity had been an issue in the navy, I’m not sure, especially aboard ship where private space is probably only a bunk how anyone would have coped with dressing or hygiene. Equally, back then, lads were expected to line up naked for physical exams and they did, no issues, no questions.

The Orson situation with ropes. Not the way I would have handled it.

Admittedly this would have been in my earliest years only, the first ten, maybe 15 at most, but in that case Orson I would have asked you immediately down from the rope to recover yourself and put on your things again as quickly as possibly and tolerated no laughter in the situation at all. I wold then have made the laughing boy climb the rope without his own shorts and pants on and see how amusing he then found it, especially if this was someone with a bit of a clowning about issue who never learnt. I guarantee you it would have worked.

Nudity among same sex and same age peers was not expected by teachers in those days to be any kind of issue at all and I'd even go as far as to say it was fully expected, perhaps not in the actual gym itself but in such a case that would have been accepted as a quick effective mitigating situation to deal with it.

My biggest problem here is not the actual shorts off issue and nudity aspect, bad enough as it is, but the teacher class control issue allowed to develop into a culture where such an event was felt possible without a consequence and I deplore any teacher calling a child a useless idiot for failing to reach a standard. Most boys tried hard even if they didn't always succeed as well as others.

Teaching is no different to any other job in that there are great and good as well as poor and pathetic alongside each other.

Comment by: Greg2 on 26th January 2024 at 19:32


I think rope climbing is a bit like playing the trombone - it looks easy, but believe me it isn't - only 7 positions on the slide - but it is the getting to them. It is very useful to be able to climb ropes if you are going to join the navy or jobs where heights come into it, like a fireman, but frankly I have always felt it a fairly useless pastime, and no account is taken of people who are scared of heights - a very common fear.

Like you, I HOPE Orson's experience wouldn't be tolerated today, not least by the teacher who laughed along at his embarrassment

Orson, there was a time, before modern day interpretation, when there was a total disregard for male dignity, and probably always worse in all male environments, though not always. This would even be taken advantage by some, be it from same age peers as in your case, or even by adults, and of either gender. It’s just how it was, and we all had to put up with it.

I doubt such would happen today, especially in a school environment, as everyone is now so hypersensitive to such things. I was still at school in the 70s, though I never experienced or witnessed anything as you described, but others on here have mentioned similar. I did have my own awkward moments at a similar age, and I expect most of us did in one way or another.

By the way, despite always being quite a sporty kid, I think I was about as good as you at rope climbing.

Rope climbing holds a particular bad humiliating memory for me and it was something we were told to do a lot at school.

I suffered a PE class with a generally unsympathetic PE teacher to those of us who didn't have the required abilities he expected of us and rope climbing was one aspect he would never accept a boy being unable to achieve with apparent speed and ease. But the class has a pair of clowns who loved jokes and got away with them.

One day I began climbing the rope in my usual cack handed useless manner, uniform for PE was only shorts, no shirts, and as soon as I began climbing someone grabbed my shorts and pulled them right down taking my underpants with them and pulled them right off me. My teacher laughed and told me to carry on going and forget my shorts laying underneath the rope on the mat and I was made to climb the rope completely naked to about as far as I could manage which was about three quarters of the way up, not touching the ceiling. I never managed that ever. Coming down I was called a completely useless good for nothing idiot and had my shorts thrown into my chest.

I don't even think this was that exceptional at a school in the 1970s and similar cases must have happened all over the place. The incident lasted no more then two minutes but left a lifetime of memory.

So I have no liking for the PE rope and even less for anyone who finds it amusing to deliberately set out to dreadfully humiliate a child on purpose. I think I must have been about twelve at the time.

This is the first time I have ever told anyone this story. I now live in Hong Kong where I am a software engineer so couldn't have been as useless as I was told and have never needed to climb a rope again in my life but feel sure if I ever do need to do so to escape a fire or something then enough adrenaline will enable me to do so if needed.

Comment by: Jason on 24th January 2024 at 21:30


Thanks Jason for that opening remark. I agree with you 100% about the now ¨Lord¨ Watson. That was purely politically motivated. You alone seem to have seen the hyperbole of that revolting suggestion that I was Carl Beech manque. Again, thanks for being the only person with the decency and courage to say so..

To everyone else, including the resigners (I know now how Rishi Sunak feels getting blamed for everything!). Do you all remember - I can´t be the only one? - who finds that these days weeks go too quick, and years flash by.

Remember in your teens how slowly time went?. Weeks seemed like months, months seemed like years. Just imagine how it felt to have to cope with individuals like the two I described , for years, and there was nothing you could do about it?. The only consolation today is that if such things occurred, there is a very good chance that those concerned could speak out, and the perpetrators bought to justice. But not always - as Nicky Campbell is sadly finding out.

I think the Carl Beech analogy was just a little unfair but I understand why you made it in the context you did. Of course in that case that person was being given airtime on national radio by the quite utterly odious O'Brien chap who uses an LBC show for personal crusading himself. Luckily I'm at work and never have to put up with such garbage but that dreadful presenter allowed that man a platform that caused enomrous reputational damage to innocents and in our ever mad world got away with it whereas a few years ago he would have been out on his ear and lucky to find further employment on the tiniest local network if he was lucky. The same goes for the lamentable Tom Watson, now Lord Watson the former Labour deputy. And they say Britain is one of the least corrupt countries in the world do they, who are they kidding? It's just more sinister and underhand although in the two cases I've mentioned quite out in the open.

I don't mind people coming on here saying how they feared doing PE with their shirts off, didn't like the forced willy waving naked showers and all that, that's actually normal stuff many felt with PE, or the winter cross countries and all those things, or the rope climbing, WE ALL DID IT! You're not special if you did these things and got watched. I should think looking at the 200th naked lad that week was quite boring for most teachers, not some kind of thrill and to pretend otherwise in so many cases is just silly. A few teachers yes, most no way.

So quite right not to overdo the paper articles about such people in a country with 35,000 schools and 65 million people. 180 years ago you' d have been sent naked down a coal mine with girls at the age of just 6 or 7 sometimes, for 18 hours a day!

I'm saying goodbye too.

Geoff had it right. To hijack a thread to never stop pushing the same agenda against people like me in my former profession who never did anything wrong all our lives and acted professionally at all times is deeply hurtful to many good people.

To come back after the truce with more of the same showed a total lack of basic sense and proved to me once and for all the agenda was going too far.

This is not the place for some people to work through their deep seated problems of this nature. To say Happy New year and instantly go into a paedophile teacher case was quite literally stunningly stupid in the extreme. You lost your final backers with that one. There is a time and a place for everything and that was just so wrong headed.

No more from me - goodbye History World.

I am an teacher who has chosen to work in the private sector, now well into my second year at my latest school. We teach boys and girls years 1 to 6 so 6 to 11 years of age. This is an excellent school with an outstanding OFSTED report, but it does have one peculiarity these days which seems very anachronistic. During the upcoming Summer term the boys indoor PE kit will change from T-shirt and shorts to shorts only. It was school policy last year and it will be again this year. The reason given for the policy is strictly practical, to keep the boys cool while exercising hard indoors in warmer weather. The head teacher does not want some boys suffering unnecessarily from the heat of summer so all boys must go bare chested while this is a possibility. It is seen as addressing a genuine health and safety need. It is therefore seen as no different to mandating bare feet in PE also for safety reasons. Doing less active work in PE as an alternative to keep them cooler is seen as undesirable. The mandate only applies to years 4,5 and 6, so the older boys who are indeed expected to work harder in PE. At this school physical education is taken seriously. The boys do something every day, swimming one day, outdoor games twice a week and indoor PE twice a week. The mandate does not apply to outdoor PE where top must always be worn to avoid sunburn, but hot weather is a reason for bringing the session indoors, as is rain. If an outdoor games session is deemed undesirable due to weather conditions the boys come into the hall, remove shoes, socks and rugby top and do a normal indoor PE lesson in just their shorts. In these lessons boys and girls usually share the hall while in PE they are split. As far as i can tell last year all the boys i took for PE adapted to the mandate without too much fuss.

So i am asking how do you mothers of sons who read this site feel about this, and the teachers, i would like your opinions too. It is mandated on health and safety grounds which often trumps all other considerations. Is a bare chest not too different to bare feet in the context of indoor school pe. I was really surprised myself at first but have come to think that it does make sense.

If this school has made its decision based on health and safety maybe your kids school will soon do the same as summers become hotter and longer. How do your sons schools adapt their PE to the warmer weather?

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

Comment by: Geoff on 20th January 2024 at 16:06


I do know for a fact that Boreham died sometime in the early 1990s, Geoff. It is quite likely Roberts is dead as well by now, so they will never pay for their behaviour. I don't see the point of justice beyond the grave. Anyway, with the sort of shower we get on this site, even if it could be proved, I doubt they would believe it.

I am sick of people alleging that I post under multiple names - Hugh was deeply offensive towards me in implying insanity, claiming to be a doctor of some sort - and we all remember who Karl Beech was and what he did. If I am to be regarded in the same vein as that creep - and even very recent offences are shrugged off here, frankly, what is the point?. I doubt the events of 40+ years ago would be of any interest to anybody.

Frankly some of the comments I have received from some of these posters are in the gutter.

It will be interesting to see what schools of the future look like, when Nanny Starmer starts his teeth brushing lessons!

As regards "Original Andy" yesterday and what he and his wife "think", I haven't the faintest idea what he was talking about - neither, I suspect does he. Perhaps Mrs Original Andy could translate for us.

As T.S. Elliot wrote many years ago "humankind cannot bear too much reality"

I agree with the first line of Geoff's post.

Enough is enough. I was largely sympathetic for a long time but that was the end of it for me.

I will no longer be posting on this forum as it just revolves around the same things. It looked promising for a day or two but didn't last.

So it's a final goodbye from me.

To sign off actually Andy I've disagreed with some of your comment and tone in the past but today I have to admit that was one of your best comments I've seen and persuasive.

The legacy of this forum is that it might make me and my son do a bit of bareskin running together come the spring. He likes the idea.

The new ID system seems deeply flawed and a waste of time. I've already seen people with differing IP's. Quite pointless in my opinion.

Goodbye.

Geoff, you give sound advice however I think in this case and I’ve thought it for some time that here we have more of a Carl Beech than anything else otherwise why would someone who is so perpetually obsessed with abuse not have done something rather than continue to post here to an utterly disinterested audience. I note three links posted in recent weeks and not a single person has responded to them in any way but they continue to be posted. I have previously been accused of all sorts in the past by him including the usual one of being someone else who I am not and all to no avail. Fortunately the other posters in the room here are adults.

I do note with some relief that the multiple posts of noise agreeing with the poster in question have ceased since the matter of IP addresses was put in place, it’s not perfect but it’s clear no one is multi posting in short order from the same place. You might wonder where they have all gone but of course, it was obvious to me at least what was happening and I simply couldn’t put up with the level of twisted, nasty abuse from a single source using multiple names that were chaotic, misquoting and building on the misquotes. There’s more to life. I think similar to another poster, my ‘offence’ was to have enjoyed PE at school and appreciated the expertise of the teachers.

My heart sank the moment I saw more of the same regards abusive teachers with the article posted at the start of the year. It was hardly the new beginning I would have expected with yet more of the same.

So here is my advice as a former police officer and detective. The statute of limitations does not apply in cases of the kind you write about Alan. Even if the person you speak of is now deceased that does not matter.

You clearly feel very strongly. Therefore I urge you to make an approach to your local police after collecting all your facts. They will take you seriously, more so nowadays than ever in the past. You owe it to yourself and others. If you do this further enquiries may well find a bigger story, discover more people like you and others who were abusive who can be held to account.

Have you never considered this? It is not too late. Do so. That is my advice. You have nothing to lose do you.

Acting in the way I suggest will be much more useful than the never ending complaints on a small read forum here and posting stories about other schools. Worry about yourself for once and try to act for yourself.

You will feel much better off doing this once you have chosen to get this off your chest in the proper manner.

No more excuses, go and do it. You are not powerless.

Good luck.

Comment by Robbie on 19th January 2024 0524::

Robbie I think you are right - the IP system doesn't seem to be as foolproof as it used to be, which is why I continue to give my email address as some sort of proof that all I write comes from me, though I suspect a few people still think I am "Mr. Dando" and about six other characters!. So be it. I know I am only me.

Let me say straight off I was really sorry to read about your grandparents - I lost my family early, but to illness - a sudden shock like you had must have caused unimaginable distress - even worse than illness in it's swiftness - you are half prepared for the death of somebody in poor health for a long time. . I can't imagine how it ,must have affected you.

As regards Mr Hind's comments. Perhaps I was wrong, but I did feel that there was an element of a ticking off from teacher, plus the implication I had been lying. I won't rehearse the entire message just this short quote will suffice:

"As for this nonsense about looking up boys shorts while they climb ropes and all that kind of thing, it really is just complete imagination in nearly all cases.

Why would a PE teacher even wish to waste his time doing this? PE teachers see hundreds of boys in changing rooms each week, they don't have to try hard to see what anyone looks like, they've got boys willies literally in front of them day after day if the school showers, like mine does. So ask yourself why any teacher needs to play such silly games like staring up shorts, when they've got every boy in their class parading most of what he's got before their own eyes without much need to try and see in any kind of furtive manner."

I am just surprised that those last six lines didn't induce an accusation from one of my complainants - if noticing a fully dressed young man of 17/18 has a beard God alone knows what they would have made of those observations, but luckily for DH it has been a "gang up on Alan" week/month/year . Just imagine if I had been their author!.

As I attempted to explain to him, it really DID happen and Roberts boasted to us about what he did (only when no other school staff were present of course. or younger lads - 14+ was his especial interest). With his sort it was all about control and cheap thrills. Why does it concern me? - well, we had not one but two perverted teachers at the same time (Royal Liberty who I have highlighted on here are even unluckier since they had three - at last count). My best mate at school had some really shocking experiences with Roberts, because at the time he was very good at sports. I am not going to rehearse what happened to him, in case it inspires yet more salacious muck about me, but suffice it to say he turned to drink and drugs in his late teens. He used to confide in me when he was sober, I am not saying (how could I know?) if Roberts was the sole reason for this, but it must have been a contributory factor. It also, on a personal level, make you very suspicious about others. Probably one of the reasons I work for myself, and haven't taken a holiday in several years is the
total disinclination to be under anybody's thumb.No work, no pay. I was lucky never to have a bully boss like Roberts or Boreham (the other rotten apple in our barrel), but I wouldn't be prepared to risk it. So that sort of early experience CAN have a lasting effect. In my case, a good one, I think, in regards to working ethic. I genuinely wonder what damage the repulsive music teacher who has a thing about 5 to 8 year olds will have on them in later life, or the boys subjected to physical abuse at Royal Liberty. I was (perhaps I am genuinely naive) absolutely dumfounded to find out that this sort of industrial abuse can go on in today's computerised, "Big Brother is watching you" world. I would also say it doesn't say much for those very young boys parents to continue to send their 5/8 year olds to a music teacher who now has a criminal conviction for grim matters of an appalling nature (he is a private teacher, the P.E teachers at Royal Liberty in the state system). They have a choice in regard to the music teacher. (the parents - not the children) I am just glad I was largely self-taught and only had minimal contact with a music teacher, who was entirely straight, in every sense of that word.

Was I wrong to answer DH in the way I did?. Perhaps. Probably. but was he, as you suggested , being "friendly"? - not in my book, if you doubt the truthfulness of what you are being told in good faith. I didn't detect a friendly tone. It just made me wonder what his response would be if one of his pupils made a similar allegation against one of his teaching colleagues. Would he just dismiss it as a lie or "nonsense"? - only he can answer that. Personally, I believe there is never smoke without fire, and I would not just dismiss it so lightly. Perhaps my response wasn't politic, and it it offended anybody, including yourself or him, then I am sorry. But, Robbie you sort of suggest that I might "enjoy victim status". I think you will agree with me my "F*** you" attitude, (which I doubt few on HW would disagree I possess!) which I apply to all areas of my life dispels that idea. I do feel real and genuine concern for lads like myself, then or now, who are unable to express themselves in the way I am able to do. I ,might have gone to a dump that was a disgrace even to the run down area where I lived, but there is more to me than that. I am more or less self-educated. I won, the school didn't, So, no, I am no victim, nor have I ever considered myself to be.



I hope you and others continue to post, The day may come when I cease to post, but I will not be run out of town by a couple of silly, harrumphing old men making the most sordid allegations against me, in very colourful language.. I hope this reply, though long is proportionate , but honestly when you are called a paedophile and a pervert by two old men who don't know you (and let's face it seem somewhat eccentric) - I think that is going a bit too far. But I seem to be the only one who thinks so.!

Just one last point, if I may, I did receive an email from somebody wanting to know why I only employed "boys" between the ages of 16/18. The answer is simple. It was a Saturday casual job, involving lifting metal objects - servers and the like, When we started Sun Microsystems servers were very bulky. for example and there was electro mechanical equipment, often dirty dusty and oily. These were often lads who didn't want to work in a supermarket, or had been turned down for such work, or only wanted work on occasional Saturdays. No girl ever wanted the job, but if one had, and she had been prepared to put her shoulder into it, she would have been welcome. I do remember one lad was surprised I called him by his forename, because, apparently at school he was always called by his surname only by all teachers. - In 2010!. Like I have said before do teachers still live in the 1950s?

Since the topic of bare skin running came up last year, I’ve been interested to try it but I haven’t run outside for ages. Normally before my gym sessions I use the cross trainer but after discussion with my PT, I moved to a treadmill. Quite a few leg massages later, I’m capable now of keeping a steady 14-15km/hour over about thirty minutes and so he says it’s time to give it a go so in the next week, I’m going running with my PT a couple of times in addition to my normal gym sessions. He’s not fully committed to the idea of getting his shirt off outside yet but I suspect he’ll come round. Anyway, I’m looking forward to it.

Now, to digress. In my line of work, it’s quite common to set an elephant trap for someone to fall into. This board was becoming utterly toxic, it has always had elements of that, where people were making sensible posts and shouted down and I’ve been on the receiving end of that on several occasions in the past, along with the regular allegation that I was posting under multiple names.

I know I wasn’t using multiple names however over the last three months of last year it reached new levels of nastiness aimed at me and others and some of the posts were quite frankly defamatory along with, again, the tedious allegations that I was posting under multiple names which I wasn’t all coming from someone who I firmly believe was posting under multiple names (why else would he be so obsessed with the idea, it had never occurred to me to do that) and that same person appeared to be orchestrating the nastiness using multiple names including posts deliberately misquoting people and even when that was pointed out, making the misquotes worse, using multiple names and following it up with more names doing similar things to a point where what was being quoted was out of all relationship to the reality of what had been said and the original poster was being defamed.

I showed some of this to my wife who knows more about this sort of thing than I do and she was particularly annoyed at some of the things that were being said about me which she knew to be downright lies. As I said at the time, I’m not a retired school master living in France and I never have been, I’m a barrister living in Hertfordshire. Equally, I know no other poster on this board personally but only last week someone was referred to as my ‘friend’ by someone trying to suggest something unpleasant and it was made by someone who obviously observes this board hour by hour with a nasty response for anyone he doesn’t agree with. We have seen a great deal of this in the last week.

So the elephant trap. Well, I meant what I said back in December and my wife is still keeping an eye on what is being posted here but the elephant is in the trap for all to see as a result of the issue of IP addresses and their at least part publication. Everyone can now only post in their own name or risk being caught out and shown up for what they are, a multi-name poster posting the same nastiness to and about other posters.

The noise has calmed down and the nastiness which continues the previous theme is only now, as all can clearly see, coming from one place only and it’s clear for all to see. Were it not, I suspect my last post and a few made since Christmas would have attracted the same barrage of abuse as they were previously. Other posters have made posts in the course of the last week which has dug the elephant trap deeper and while I sought no assistance, it has cleared the picture for all to see. I attracted a nasty post, very quickly from the person who had always been the chief suspect of the nasty orchestration of posts others have done the same in the course of the last week almost without exception.

Add to that the utter obsession with abuse including repeatedly posting links to stories about it that are of interest to no one and to which no one has responded and you have a nasty, toxic, unhealthy poster who ogles at school children and I note the point that he wishes them to be adults because that in some way assuages his guilt for his wrong doing.

I would just ask then, since people can now post only in their own name and we’ve had several posts in the course of the last week that would have definitely attracted a barrage of abusive responses in times past and those posters have (and possibly without realising it) added to the elephant trap this week by expressing their frustration, why is it so quiet and where have all those other names gone that have been a party to the systematic abuse of posters in the past. They all seem to have vanished into thin air and somehow, I doubt will be back.

Stand forward Alan Giles, you’re guilty as charged many times over and there’s no army of shouters and blusterers running to your defence and now you are finally caught in a nice, deep elephant trap for all to see.
Before you start retaliating and posting more foul abuse and accusations just remember, you are being very comprehensively tracked and if you continue, you will hear a lot more about it, your history and more will be displayed for all to see and there is lots of it.

To others, please keep posting, leave the elephant in the trap for all to see and get back to a good discussion about fitness, health, gym and happy times past.

It looked to me that the teacher took a lot of effort early in the morning before he started work to offer some very well meaning advice to Alan on these pages, he did not have to do that to a complete stranger.

Sometimes advice comes from friends in ways we don't really want to hear and I think this was a good case in point actually.

I'm really very shocked at the hostile reply that came back to the PE teacher who made that effort. Nathan you wrote a fine post.

You are judging a modern teacher by the standards of your own one Alan. Why are you letting a bad teacher from 40 or more years ago to continue to play on your mind and upset you so greatly? Do you really wish to feel like this for the rest of your life and give a bad teacher from many years ago such immense power to control you like this?

There are genuine people here who have sought to be useful to you and offer help but I do hope you are not one of those people who simply enjoys their victim status rather than wishing to move onto more positive areas in life.

Many people have come through traumatic times in life in so many ways and it has ended up being the making of them as better more resilient people. It's not easy but can be done. I lost both my young grandparents and in a car crash when I was just 22 and thought my life was over. It wasn't, I used the that to power me on to greater things and work through the pain. A drunk driver ended their lives in a fleeting moment and never even served time for it. That's how easy life can vanish out of nowhere, so make the most of it. Make that move today. You can do it, you are stronger than you will ever realise, most of us are. Human beings are amazing.

Although a decent attempt I don't think the IP system will address the issues that concerned people. IP addresses alter frequently based on many issues, I see Alan you've already had about four so far. It means little actually.

But if this standard keeps up and nothing changes then like others have already said, I will choose to leave the website for good. I see many missing regular names already and who can blame them.

Unlike the PE teacher who was beginning his day I am now finishing my media night shift at 5am and off on my way home after a long night.

I give everyone my best wishes for the year ahead and hope for better debate, and that includes you Alan and the PE teacher and others.

If I get a similar reply to Nathan Hind I will no longer post.

Comment by Paul 18th January 2023 at 22.23

Paul, I am very happy for you that the remarks I am getting give you so much pleasure. So you think by proxy I am a "weak, whinging, wet whimp" , do you - or at least you imagine you think that is what your late PE master would have said. Well, we are all entitled to our own opinion,

I would, though, just ask you to consider this. All my posts are made under my own name, I always provide my email address as proof of my bona fides, so that anyone who wishes to contact me can do so. When I make an accusation I back it up with a printed reference. For instance, just this week in our local newspaper, we were confronted with this:

https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/24053715.hornchurch-paedophile-choirmaster-still-teaching-kids/

Another teacher - a music one this time. I apologise for any teacher reader who feels I am besmirching his profession, but remember, I am not a journalist I didn't write the story. I was not one of his pupils, but don't you think the fact that 5-8 year olds were involved is disgusting and that he is able to go on teaching after conviction, just as Quinlan in the other case did. makes it even more so?. As I have previously explained I feel these things deeply having had two teachers with similar proclivities, and one of them inflicted severe damage on an old schoolfriend of mine - the other inflicted damage on all of us at one time or another. To see it still going on today despite all the old crap of "safeguarding" and CRB checks is genuinely shocking and intolerable to me.,

I know it is winter and everyone needs a hobby, but what I do take exception to, is the fact that two old men, one of whom cheerfully regaled us with his stories of caning boys in his former profession, just weeks ago, had the cheek to refer to me as "a child voyeur" of peddling "perverted filth" and "obsessed with children". The faux outrage is almost laughable, especially as he hides behind his screen name in France. Another, in some unspecified location, can't wait to rush on here to tell us how many lads he saw without shirts (in the middle of one of the coldest January's in 40 plus years, according to the Met office), and his hyperbole reaches very vulgar conclusions, including a masturbatory allusion, and allegations of hiding behind "net curtains" (twice - obviously they have some strange significance for him). What is my "crime"? - just my observation that some older school pupils, who wait at a bus stop just a few yards from where I am working have beards. Prince Harry has a beard - by these elderly gents logic, does that mean I have some sexual interest in Prince Harry?. It was just an observation, yet you, Hind and several others have not suggested these over-the-top responses are in any way disproportionate. It is only myself that is at fault. Sorry, but when I am hit unjustifiably, I hit back.

It is open season on me, OK - as I said we are all entitled to our opinions, but mine is that some of you are being rather hypocritical The only reason I mentioned the beards was to illustrate my point that treating such lads as "children" is one of the reasons that there is so much truanting these days, I was making the point (and I run the risk of being accused of perversion yet again by the usual suspects) that today's older teenager matures a lot quicker than those of previous generations. I have employed 16-18 year olds in the past, and I have heard their complaints about the way they get treated at school. Some teachers still seem to think it is 1955. They do not want to be patronised (as indeed a current teacher had the effrontery to try on me in my 50s just a couple of days ago - go back a few messages to see it if you have a mind to)

I don't see why I have to justify my working arrangements to anybody, least of all to keyboard warriors, but this observation was based on the fact that I am receiving and despatching goods from couriers who happen to come early in the mornings at a time when school students are around. Perhaps I should keep my eyes closed while so doing so I can see nothing that reduces old men to apoplexy.

I hope the owner of the site, in the interests of fair play, sees fit to publish this message. He seems to have no compunction in printing really vulgar comments against me, but has, on occasion, "forgotten"to publish a perfectly polite rebuke to quite scabrous messages against me.

Meanwhile, Paul you can think what you like about me. I know the truth, and it is far from the hateful, twisted motives ascribed to me by a couple of old timers feigning outrage.

Now on my third IP address!

Alan, I will repeat that you are now on the receiving end of the sort of commenting you have and still do dole out to others over years here when anyone posted anything your agenda of abuse everywhere was disagreed with and if you don’t like it, then you can of course leave as you have driven out many over the years. I haven’t read anything that sounded untrue. I was on the receiving end of it myself for having committed the mortal sin of enjoying PE at school.

Perhaps you were one of the lads our PE teacher used to refer to as the W lads.

Weak, whining, whinging, wet, wimps and there were many more. Please stop inflicting your problems on others.

Further abusive response expected.