Burnley Grammar School

The surname 'thing' came up 'somewhere' (not here) a little while back.

It was a common means of address between males in the late Victorian period onwards (and possibly survived into the 60s).

I do recall an incident involving two of the leading UK mountaineers of the 1930s/40s: Bill Tilman & Eric Shipton who always addressed each other by their surnames. One day Shipton suggested that, as they knew each other very well, they should use their christian names. Tilman turned it down grumpily and when asked why, replied 'Because Eric is such a damn silly name'.

In my 'working life' I come across many people - I have no problems with using 'Sir', 'Madam', 'Gentlemen', 'Ladies', etc as forms of address, simply as a sign of respect. Although I dislike wearing a name badge, I have both christian & surnames on mine. It is nice that, on big (& other) occasions people come up & say 'Thank You Tim' ... but this is all going off topic.

Comment by: Tanya on 26th September 2023 at 21:37


Apart from thinking using surname only is rank bad manners and antisocial, to go from junior school where you are always known by your forename to be shouted at by old men calling you by your surname only makes you feel as if you were in prison.

I can only assume in earlier days, this was a throwback from when teachers had been in the army or police force, but I do know that these days even policemen get called by their forename by fellow officers and sergeants etc, and if they are in bad books they would normally be referred to as "P.C. Smith" or whatever.

I would HOPE teachers. who don't have one foot in the grave, or who didn't go through the military would these days would show more courtesy then our ignorant old farts did. I suppose it depends on who and what they teach at teacher training colleges these days.

Seeing the comments about the surnames allows me to recount this wonderful memory of mine from being at school at the early part of the 1960's in my boys school. In just my one class of about 28 boys we had a veritable colour of the rainbow amongst us all.

There was a Redd, Brown, White, Black, Gray, Green, Orange and Pink. A quarter of our class had surnames that were colours, 8 out of no more than 30 boys at most. I'm counting Black and White as colours even though technically they are not classed as such, just to show my education there. I'm sure they put us all in the same class on purpose, it felt more contrived than coincidental. A trick that was often employed by teachers for effect was to call out at least three surnames out of these boys to make it sound amusing. There were also jokes about what colour would be made if various boys mixed together and all that. My name was Gray, Everyone knows the Brown's and Black's but I had never heard anyone with the surname Orange and never have since, which amused me no end at the time. I did come across another Pink in adult life though. As everyone has said, teachers knew and referred to us primarily by surname, especially in physical education.

I don't think I've got anything new to add about physical education that hasn't already been said.

That is a cracking anecdote from David Terry isn't it.

So even the teacher himself thought he sounded more authoritative just known by his surname.

I wonder if he'd felt the same if he'd been approached and addressed as Mr Pratt by any chance.

This whole using surname only is very much a male thing isn't it, women and girls just don't do this to each other anywhere.

So then guys, what's the deal about getting called by your second name in school, did you mind or what and what got me from the earlier comment was all the boys calling each other by surnames too, why did you boys do that to each other in school in those days? Is it machismo or something.

I've mentioned once before, back in the late 60s I had a same age friend who was educated at a private prep school. I remember he once told me that he only knew his classmates by using their surnames. That is what they all did at his school, which I remember thinking really odd. He didn't even know most of their forenames. Time and culture continues to change.

Matt M: Early one morning on TV this summer (I am a martyr to insomnia) I happened to see an episode of an Edwardian TV "drama" made in the 70s called Upstairs Downstairs, (dreadful programme btw) all about an "important family" who lived in Eaton Square , where the family, even junior members of it, had to be called "sir", by the staff while they - young and old, invariably referred to the staff male and female by surname only. I think it is not only snobbish, but frankly downright rude. It is bad enough to make an employee a subordinate, but bloody teachers are not employers - indeed it is the parents money that keeps THEM employed. There was no need for it, and most certainly isn't now - perhaps Nathan can let us know if this is still the practice.

The other Matt mentions that his colleague preferred surname only to distinguish between himself and the school caretaker. A certain Edwardian snobbishness there too.

I was always lucky when I was an employee to have decent polite employers, who would never be so curt, and when I employed people I always used their first name. Perhaps some of the teaching profession need to learn common civility. By the way, I had a mate called Matthew at school, who always preferred to be called Matt. He really couldn't stand being called Matty, which is family inevitability did.

David Terry, a retired schoolmaster, recalled in a letter to The Times that on his first day at work he had approached a long-serving teacher in the staffroom and called him, respectfully, "Mr. Smith".

The intimidating response was: "I am Smith. Mr. Smith is the caretaker".

Apology received with thanks.

The surname calling has been mentioned on here a couple of times previously. Quite a similar view to you Matthew.

Using your surname in school was all about projecting authority wasn't it?

Oh yes Mark so right you are!

I shouldn't think there was a PE teacher who knew my name was actually Matt while I went through the years at senior school in the seventies up until I left back in '80 which couldn't come quick enough.

As well as the PE teachers knowing me just as McCarthy it was also the woodwork and metalwork teachers who acted the same, boys only known by surnames in those classes too, and we did a plastics workshop too and so did that bloke. I hated the metalwork teacher I had big time who was very demeaning to some of us, he was a league of his own, no PE teacher came close to his dislikeability.

We had to refer to all of them as Sir or Mister. It really was a case of yes Sir, no Sir, three bags full Sir. I think there might have been a history teacher one year who went the McCarthy only name with me bit all the others knew me as Matt or Matthew. No women used our surnames in school, not even any of the girls PE teachers if they had cause to speak to us, they always called me Matt.

My best friend at the time called me Matty quite a lot but the rest of the boys across all the classes only went with surnames at each other, so I heard my surname more than my first name in school when you add them into it. I think some girls may have called me McCarthy instead of Matt but most used my first name I think. I'm a bit more vague on that one. I would have preferred those my age I was in classes with to have known me as Matt rather than always McCarthy, while some of those teachers I expected it of in those days.

I'm sure all men of a certain age and at school at a certain time will find what I've said here instantly recognisable to themselves in some way won't they.


My school PE kit.

Autumn/Winter Outside - Football boots. Navy blue long sleeved top. Black shorts. Long royal blue thick socks to the knee almost.

We had to run cross country in our football boots would you believe and they were not designed for that kind of running, especially on the harder surfaces we encountered along the way in part.

Spring/Summer Outside - As much white as possible. White trainers, white socks, white shorts and a white vest. All white! Sometimes the vests would be left aside after we got out there.

All year round indoors for general gym - white shorts. Nothing else. Bare feet and bare chests.

This meant we had less to carry about on gym days and also everyone was always doing gym PE, unlike outdoors when someone always had an excuse to sit it out if they came without their boots or pretended to forget them as there was nothing in lost property to dig out like that.

School showers were compulsory up until the fifth form when they became voluntary but most still decided to take them when the teacher set them going, but we were no longer obliged to do so, probably just because we were older by then but we were still just as sweaty. My view was why remain sweaty if I don't have to be.

Showering at my school was communal in nature, not especially large, but a kind of long narrow set up a bit like crowding down a long dead end corridor. It was quite difficult not to accidentally touch or brush against someone else but you tried not to. You were not allowed to wear shorts in the shower or anything like that, you had to use them fully bare naked. If a teacher thought you had gone in and come out too quickly you got sent right back in again for another go. I guess 2 minutes was the minimum, once we'd rubbed a bit of soap on ourselves. PE teachers encouraged us to pay attention to our underarms, I always remember that bit.

Thanks for reading.

Do you not think things were generally far better in the days when not just teachers but doctors, police and other such like professions were not just admired but respected and those who did those kind of jobs were seen as pillars of society, even bank managers come to think of it.

I do think you earn respect mind you and shouldn't automatically receive it based on your status in anything.

I see nothing wrong with addressing people as sir, miss or madam, or as you say as mr or mrs whoever. All are acceptable. It did used to jar with me somewhat that I had to use these respectful terms to staff when all the PE ones and a few of the others used to address me as nothing more than the family surname any time they called out to me which didn't feel very friendly coming from some of them. I don't think many people refer to their colleagues in the adult workplace just by their surname very often unless in the services but this style of addressing was deemed acceptable for children for some reason.

I apologise to Geoff for thinking he was a school teacher, and for any distress that caused. Clearly I misread his reply. Sorry Geoff.

Comment by: Roy on 25th September 2023 at 19:48

What is wrong with "Mr. Smith" or "Mrs Brown"?, Roy?. Do you go round calling your employer "Sir" all the time?. When pupils see their teachers having a strop and shouting, or behaving like a Mick Lynch acolyte , going on strike at the drop of a hat, why should teachers feel they have the right to be revered? . I don't agree with the idea of calling teachers by their forenames, but the 19th/20th century practice of calling people by an unofficial title is absurd in the 2020s. If I were a 17/18 year old "schoolboy" I'd be damned if I would call an 28 year old teacher "sir".

'or rather witnessing it' was crystal clear to me Geoff.

Anyway you made absolutely no claim or insinuation in any way that you were a PE teacher so I'm quite astonished you got a blast out of Alan there.

And even if you had been a PE teacher, what a reply to get.

There is nothing wrong with calling teachers 'Sir' or 'Miss' you know Alan, and teachers are important people in the lives of children. What do you expect them to be exactly?

Geoff - Thanks for your response to Alan's post.

I, too, couldn't work out why you were a 'Sir'.

Geoff said "Pre-empting Nathan if he answers your question for himself but I can answer this one easily for myself, or rather witnessing it nearly half a century ago. It was 'stop whining, stop wasting my time, strip off and get in there NOW' and that was the limit of any discussion and no further appealing if you were sensible. I've got in mind a specific timid lad with national health spectacles who was often pleading to be a special case and excused. He never was."




You're not a "Sir" like Alan says are you.

Key word here is "witnessing" surely. It's clear to me, you're the child in this story.

And yes, that would probably have been the attitude without a shadow of doubt, like it or not, nobody kept on about feelings in those days.

Alan.

I don't think Geoff actually said he was a PE teacher there did he, if so where did he suggest he was? I just read him from the pupil perspective, unless I've misunderstood. One of us has.

I was speaking as a schoolkid myself you dozy clot! A witness to others.

What, you actually thought I was a PE teacher? You seem to be seeing them everywhere and with ill intent.

I am not a PE teacher alright. Thank goodness I checked back rather fast so I can set the record straight on that.

Comment by: Geoff on 25th September 2023 at 11:57


I bet you had the little eleven year olds calling you "sir" from the first minute of their first day, didn't you Geoff?. Lovely to feel "important".Even if you are not.

Good to read that highly positive post there Miles. :-)

I was terribly shy as a primary schoolboy and felt entry to secondary school with intense trepidation with many of the things that have been said here worrying me a lot. But secondary was okay, even the PE teachers were fair and understanding and dare I say it in most cases rather reasonable. I know, how lucky does that make me sound for somebody who went to a secondary school between the age of 12 and 16 from 1970 to 1974. I found I very rapidly lost some of my shyer traits within weeks and settled in well. I took to some of the sports easier than I'd imagined I would, no longer feared my body or being seen without my shirt on when we did the gym where it was mandatory not to wear one, although gym wasn't my favourite. The same applied to the showering. That certainly loomed large but doing it diminished it and within a fortnight I no longer felt these things had any hold on me or were able to worry me again. PE lessons often seemed calm and fun, I don't remember much aggression like others report, despite the rugby I did a lot! I never had any problems or felt threatened or intimidated by anyone and was never bothered by teachers looking or checking on me in the changing rooms and showers at school, they must have seen kids/pupils like me thousands of times before, a bit like doctors.

I'm not saying everything was sweetness and roses, of course not, I wasn't keen on the kind of gym shown in the picture on here, me I'd much rather be doing team games than vaulting a horse and always preferred the outside whatever time of year it was. I was a keen rugby player but just missed out on the school team because interest for it was so high. I loved the rough and tumble of the game at that age and liked nothing more than getting into a mess throwing myself at the ground attempting to score a try, and the PE lessons I was into the most involved rugby, muck, sweat and the odd bruise here and there. Walking off the field aching, sweating, mucky and breathless heading for the showers to make ourselves presentable again sounds a nightmare to some but to me felt like I'd achieved something.

Perhaps Tanya would like to define the word - dodgy - that she used? Perhaps somebody else might like to define it. Whatever the definition I think and hope it's well under 1%.

Comment by: Tom F on 24th September 2023 at 12:13
Nathan - What if you're told quite clearly someone doesn't want to shower?



Pre-empting Nathan if he answers your question for himself but I can answer this one easily for myself, or rather witnessing it nearly half a century ago. It was 'stop whining, stop wasting my time, strip off and get in there NOW' and that was the limit of any discussion and no further appealing if you were sensible. I've got in mind a specific timid lad with national health spectacles who was often pleading to be a special case and excused. He never was.

Much like my school, your right to even a bit of privacy as a boy was non existent. In our school changing room we often encountered teachers of other subjects kind of passing through. I couldn't even begin to explain what some of them were even doing there at times. The changing room should have been barred to anyone other than PE staff, especially with showers always on the go. In my case this was 35 years ago in 1988.

Comment by: Tanya on 24th September 2023 at 21:29

Tanya, being a run down old school we only had the one PE teacher (Nobody with any quality or talent wanted to work there as it had been under threat of closure for years, since before I went there, so we had old men hanging on for their pensions, resenting every minute or younger men with "problems" of various sorts, which meant it was the only job they could get). Wasn't we lucky!.

I don't know the percentage of paedophiles then, in teaching generally but as for today - and I know this will make some readers upset, I frankly think because people are encouraged to be "brave" and come out publicly and are lauded for so doing , they are probably more open and more relaxed about things now. They hide in plain sight. Probably not quite as rampant as the child grooming gangs one hears of in the North of England, which are largely comprised of another minority group, people are nervous of airing their concerns, because the politically correct group will cancel them. We know it goes on, and the fact that a few more high profile cases do get to court (and this is often because their unfortunate victims were like Nicky Campbell and famous in the media), and a very few brave people waive their right to anominity we know that such cases are still going on. As to the otiose notion of "safeguarding", I'd say what safeguarding?. Clearly it is not working, if it even exists. I have to repeat that I do not believe al teachers are homosexual, and I have no problem with them teaching any other subject, but with the increase in school age, so that you have young men of 17 or 18 at school compulsorily, I do not think it a good idea for men with homosexual tendencies to be P.E. teachers - the numerous private gyms starting up like charity shops in failing high streets means they could obtain employment in other areas. Of course, not all homosexual teachers will be attracted to boys, but the older the pupil the greater the temptation perhaps. For example, our Mr R became much more "interested" in you when you got to 15 or so.

I have no doubt if I had been to a better school, with more stable teachers, I might have a different view, but we are all victims of our own circumstances. Even so, with the increasing emphasis on individuality, and a much less rigid social order, `I think it laughable that in 2023 schools dictate what pupils wear, from clothes to length of hair to jewellery (I only had a watch) and, unless you are in the armed services, civil service, police or other public service, what employer demands to be called "sir" all the time?. There are currently some politicians who want to take us back to the world of 1997. It seems some teachers and schools want to take their pupils back to 1897.

Nathan I want your opinion on this. It surely could never happen now.

Back in the day, December 1979, I had to leave school a bit early to go and have a brace fitted at the dentist and had to be picked up to be taken along. My PE teacher at that time, I was 12 years old, brought my father to wait for me right into the changing room to stand there until I was ready to go with him, while I myself and everyone else was changing and showering, and he clocked me getting out the shower and many others too. I was so embarrassed he was there you don't want to know and very upset he did that. The teacher should have left him outside the door, or even better my dad should have stayed at reception or in his car for me rather than make his way into the school right to where I was. The very same thing happened a few months later again for another dentist brace related visit during school hours when he entered the geography lesson asking for me. Thanks to my dad waiting in the changing room to take me off, with the full blessing of my PE teacher I should add, I was teased something chronic for days afterwards about how I needed him to hold my hand and the whole bit about being seen without clothes on.

1979 is truly like another planet, I pinch myself that things like this ever happened.

Some 20 years ago there was uproar in our neighbourhood when a dirty old man well known for having a record for touching young people up (he was not a schoolteacher) was in court for these offences and received a non custodial sentence whilst living in the very same road at the same time another lady of mature years was sent to prison for 14 days for non payment of the fine she had received for TV licence evasion. I think she only got out sooner because it was paid in the end. It makes you sick doesn't it.

For the men here who are enjoying jogging while not wearing shirts I say keep it up. I wish we had a group around here, I'd be more than happy to see them going past me, runners tend to be fit and conditioned and worth looking at.

I know you've accused me of being a bit flippant with you previously Alan but that's not the aim. I have backed one or two of your points up. Out of interest, what percentile of PE teachers do you personally think were dodgy in your schooldays and what percentage do you think are nowadays?

I agreed with Marion on the safeguards now. Although I was only born in 1982 and my secondary education and PE lessons were in the mid to late 90's there has probably been a lot of change even since then on safeguards. Lots of men on here make being at school and PE in the 70's and early 80's seem like a boot camp at times.

Alan, if your teachers were all fine and upstanding men who acted professionally at all times am I to assume you would never have had a problem with all the things that your PE entailed in those days, the shirtless gyms and the communal showers etc?

Nathan - What if you're told quite clearly someone doesn't want to shower?

Just wondering if you could tell us what those minor anxieties that you always expect to see actually are?

One of mine was not wanting to be made to play football or rugby, neither of which I liked even watching, never mind being told to play. I did have the dreaded shower anxiety too.