Burnley Grammar School

Robbie.

- I'd like to ask Nathan if he's still reading this site if he takes PE classes out on cross country runs in the way us older guys will remember them and if so would he allow boys under his command to run shirtless if they asked to or simply discarded their top along the way? -



Yes we do run in PE as a group class. We do not run without tops though. It's mainly sweatshirts. If someone decided to remove that and run without it I would probably allow that if they wished but that has not happened. I save anything involving bare chests for the gym where it is most appropriate occasionally.

I was not completely surprised by the comment over the school in Dunstable although that is uncommon in my opinion.

Original Andy on 11th December 2023 at 07:59

Your point about Denmark is valid. I have a nephew there who went to live there at the age of about 20, he had been a bit of an educational drop out before that (I would blame the parents, not the school). He got into study and was encouraged at every level and obtained a Batchelors and then a Masters in his subject. He worked hard for a number of years and then, about two years ago returned to education, funded for full time study and with a guarantee on his former income while he did it. He's completed whatever it was and is now looking for a new job, still funded as a percentage of his last income while he did it. Compare that to the anti-learning and get to work model of the UK. No wonder Danes are so much more content and attracting investment in high level jobs and a 'student loan' just doesn't exist.


Mr Chips on 11th December 2023 at 15:39

Ouch, you were as tough as my French teacher ;-). Was four a standard for that sort of failure and what was the 'ultimate sanction'? Star pupil? Maybe, I did get an A at A level in French but I wasn't the only one.

On the current theme, I'm a bare skin runner, I've been doing it for over a year now in all weathers. Like many, for me PE like that was a norm so it was returning to that rather than trying something new that attracted me. I could remember how good it felt once you got over the cold and I wanted to feel like that again. It worked. At first it felt a bit strange going out particularly in the winter in a brief pair of running shorts, then I thought I was doing nothing wrong so why worry.

I run all weekday evenings, it's home from the office, strip, shorts and shoes on, pick up keys and out for about 5km. I'm very much a loner when I run but do occasionally run alongside another guy if he wants to join me. I note that now, I'm not the only bare skin out there which I was when I started. When I get back, cold shower and feel amazing, far better than I do when I get home from the office.

What's not to like?

I am sure an under 18 would not be deployed to the front line, but I suspect in all other respects a 17 year old who has signed up is treated exactly the same as an 18/19 year old is.

This is how weird we've got over school and nudity now, and this is in France not renowned for such sensitivities. Young secondary age kids refusing to look at a work of renaisance art, obviously a religious angle involved here, but what is it coming to when such young children are acting up like this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67691484

Kevin - But the fact remains that at 16 or 17 you are legally a child still even if you are 6ft 5inches tall and have genitalia that swings between your legs that is twice the size of your own father (or teacher!).



A very well made point with an amusing latter point that better be the warning to any of those PE teachers who wanted to share the shower with the class. My PE teacher actually did this a handful of times, when we were even quite young at 12 and he would have been over 35. At the time this would have been in 1976. Nature can be so cruel at times. At school two boys got teased when we showered because one of them was quite a big boned large chap by about 14 but with a tiny willy and the other was barely five feet tall but blessed down below and we used to point and joke that these two had been given each others vital bit. That was the cruelty of the school changing room with certain boys in my school. Sometimes the lines between a mild joke and banter got blurred between that and the onset of less pleasant taunting.

I was a private schoolboy, not in the state system.

I'm just back from my morning, old gits gym session - I and three others who are retired meet Monday to Friday for a workout, it certainly does me good.

Anyway, on the way home, as every morning, I passed along the boundary of the school I went to as a boy and where I'm now a governor. Usually a couple of classes are out doing PE and this morning was no exception. Two classes of lads running circuits of the field and over about fifty lads and two PE masters running with them, there wasn't a shirt between them.

I watched for a few minutes or as an unsavoury character might call it, loitered and then decided to walk across and talk to one of the PE masters who I know. For the sake of curiosity, among other things, I asked what the policy was on shirts since they didn't have one between them and he told me they are 100% optional but also that he couldn't remember when a lad last wore one and none of the masters do in class.

Pushing my luck, I asked about showers and were they optional too and he looked in amazement and said they certainly were not, any lad who had been exercising needed a shower but he also said that he had never had a lad object to taking a shower. I know from my various tours of the school that the showers are communal and remained so even after a refit just a couple of years ago and yet no lads object to using them. They must be very grown up.

We seem to be developing a new generation of boys who recognise that bare skin running is best and who don't mind at all taking a communal shower. Hopefully in a few years when they are eighteen we'll have a better generation of men rather than snowflakes.

Child Soldiers ...

Try and find this doc on the www
'ForcesWatch briefing The recruitment of under 18s into the UK armed forces' (it came up easily searching under 'Child Soldiers UK' - I think it goes into this into fair detail, although I haven't been through it deeply.
I think the following is accepted by everyone:

'members of the armed forces cannot legally be deployed on the frontline until they turn 18'

However complicated the UK system may look, it is fairer than might be found in many countries.

(Thinking back, a very good [and younger] friend was an OD(?) on a RN DD off Vietnam in the early 70s. For reasons which we needn't to into he found himself 'embedded' with the US Marines at Da Nang for some time - I wonder what age he was then? [and he did see action])

Kevin on 11th December 2023 at 13:17

Thank you for reinforcing the point I made. I agree, the situation with the military is a strange one but those under eighteen do require parental consent to join. I’m no expert on what happens after they join but I suspect they are not allowed in combat zones or other risky places.

When I was sixteen, I wanted to leave school and join the navy but my father who had been in the navy had other ideas and he wouldn’t sign the forms so I continued at school and then entered my father’s preferred profession for me which was law. I have no regrets and have a good career.

Age and emotional maturity are two completely different things. I’m sure much has been written about it by people much wiser than me.

Mr Chips on 11th December 2023 at 15:39

Thank you for your comments sir, you should give squats a go!
I had one of those horrible navy, gaberdine rain coats, I hated it and used to try to get out of the house without it every morning but one of my parents was often in the hall waiting with it making an escape impossible. I did my best to lose it but my name was embroidered into it so it came back like a boomerang and I got into trouble for carelessness and losing it. I also can’t remember an excuse that was enough to keep you out of trouble if late for school and we got four strokes of the cane too.

I’m glad you’re enjoying this board, your contributions and different perspective are fascinating to me.

Paul on 11th December 2023 at 18:28

I’m glad my post was helpful, please ask away if I can tell you anything else.


And more generally:

Alan Dando remains obsessed that people are posting under multiple names, a sure sign that he’s the guilty party trying to project his guilt, and on this board, he has plenty to be guilty about, onto others. I’ve lost count of the number of others I’m supposed to have been over the years. His latest diversions about the age of majority are just another example of his crusade to change the past, failing to realise that it can’t be changed. Perhaps if he’d stayed at school a little longer, he would be wiser. Then, maybe not.

With all due respect to Mr Chips who has made some great contributions here, my wife is quite certain she’s not married to an eighty three year old retired French teacher and we don’t live in France either. She’s chuckling about what she referred to as the Alangations which are never ending, diversionary tactics to remove the focus from his bullying. He’s a case in point of age and emotional maturity not being anything like the same thing. Sadly, he must be treated as an adult when a taste of Mr Chips’ cane would probably be the best solution.

I saw a pair of shirtless Craig style bareskin running men in Richmond Park on Sunday afternoon, mid to late 30's I'd say, so there must be something in this, perhaps the online world is helping to power the trend.

When you take some of the things that Craig has said recently on these pages here and that he has attracted a following on a whatsapp group, and seeing what Bill says about the boys at the school he's seen a couple of times it makes you wonder if the boys at the school have somehow cottoned on to the new fad for so named bareskin running like that and it is even more of a thing than previously realised.

I'd like to ask Nathan if he's still reading this site if he takes PE classes out on cross country runs in the way us older guys will remember them and if so would he allow boys under his command to run shirtless if they asked to or simply discarded their top along the way?

A very silly question Gary.

Why will some people take anything they read quite literally.

Mr Chips - 11th Dec

Yes, I did go on to enjoy French. Even to the extent of getting an O-level pass (no grades in those days). And I also enjoy going to France. My main frustration. As I said, is the way the French respond to my civilised attempts to communicate in their home territory in their own language by persistently replying in mine. The Parisians are the worst offenders, but get down to the Midi. And you stand a better chance.

Comment by: Gary on 11th December 2023 at 20:33

Certainly if you take the word of one or two people on this site as gospel, that is the case, but if the armed services and the pollce services don´t regard 17 year olds as ´children´ I think it rather presumptuous of elderly teachers to do so.

Without wishing to be discourteous , I think people who haven´t actually had any direct recent experience of working or talking with older teenager,s forget they are not the same as teenagers from sixty or thirty years ago. They are people who talk ABOUT teenagers, rather than talking TO them (as I have mentioned before I used to employ some as Saturday workers, until a few years ago). Treat them as grown-ups and they behave as grown-ups.

By being ´made´ to stay on at school till they are 18, dealing with subjects they have no interest or aptitude in, they are deliberately delaying them progressing to adulthood. Mr Chippy with his roseate memories of his students being chivvied along with his cane, has no currency into today´s world (thank goodness).

If a lad or girl want to stay on in education, it should be a voluntary decision, and they should be supported in that decision, as it was until recent times. Frankly, the only reason Blair wanted kids to go to university was to try to disguise the unemployment figures - an arbitrary figure of 50% of people attending university, meant that they will spend years of their working lives paying off enormous debts (which Blair and his university colleagues didn´t have to do) - and for what?. After a course in golf course management, many of the poor devils will end up being the highest educated man or woman in the call centre.

But to go back to ´childhood´ - if the Met Police are prepared to treat 17 year olds as adults, who are the rest of us to disagree.?.

Comment by: Gary on 11th December 2023 at 20:33
So according to some people here the UK is guilty of inlisting CHILD SOLDIERS??



If you think that's really what I meant in all seriousness then you haven't understood the nuance of what I was saying. So to answer your question the answer is a loud and definite NO.

So according to some people here the UK is guilty of inlisting CHILD SOLDIERS??

Original Andy on 11th December 2023 at 07:59

Wow, thank you so much for so much guidance on gym, what you are doing is way different to anything I've done before in terms of routine and you are getting good results. I think I'll give it all a go - perhaps after Christmas, then again, I might start tomorrow. Thank you again.


More widely, to add my own experience, at school, I always, alongside my classmates was bare chested for PE and after a couple of lessons it was perfectly normal, as normal as communal showers became. I think children adapt quickly and in a structured environment, thrive. There needs to be compulsion to try things otherwise how would any of us ever try anything that we thought we might not like? No child has an informed opinion, childhood is about testing things out and also getting used to situations in which you may not feel comfortable - imagine a world of adult snowflakes - there are enough around and if no one did anything they didn't want to, we'd live in a 100% snowflake world.

Once I get working in the gym, bare skin running is definitely up for a try.

Comment by: Mr Chips on 11th December 2023 at 15:39


I am not seeking to deprive anybody of anything - if people want to carry on in education above and beyond 18 that is fine by me. But for working class lads, not especially academically inclined (like myself) it is better to get out in the working world. It did me no harm, nor I think the other lads I was at school with. We learned in real world employment, far different to the scenarios that might have been dreamt up in school, and you developed self-reliance and self confidence and the ability to act on your own initiative.

By the way - I notice that when you replied to me you pulled the old ´Andy¨ trick - and his various aliases - by being dismissive and somewhat condescending )- (´I don´t know if it is worth replying to you´). This really isn´t compulsory, you know. True, I might not have a doctorate , but I am not an illiterate hobbledehoy either, and snide little put downs say more about the person writing them than it does about me.

To you and him - or them - I can only say I am just as satisfied with my current working life as you are with yours.

Of course, every opinion is just that - mine carries no more weight than yours, but each opinion is based on personal experience.

Nate on 7th December 2023 at 23:02
Oh dear, back to school for you my boy ;-) Double Latin.

Mike on 8th December 2023 at 13:27
I believe Google translate learns from the amount of translation it is asked to do. English to French is pretty good but I suspect there is little demand for Latin.

Chris G on 8th December 2023 at 15:16
OMG, what a terrible introduction, that shouldn’t have happened. In a first lesson I introduced words of things in the room for most of the lesson and then how to put them together for example, bureau et chaise, fenêtre et porte. For anyone with English as a first language, even starting to get hold of the definite and indefinite articles in another language – even though French has much in common with many other European languages but not English is enough of a challenge for week one and leads to lots of questions, some of which have no answer other than that’s the way the French language works. I hope you went on to enjoy French?

James on 9th December 2023 at 11:07 & James on 10th December 2023 at 17:09
Oh dear, day dreaming in a lesson for most of the time if you managed to get 18% for your efforts when you are clearly talented by your mark of 93% on repeat. Having determined that you were day dreaming and not distracted by something important to you, I would probably have given you four strokes of the cane too. Three stingers and the last one with a bit more burn to remind you when you sat down for a couple of days to pay attention and as you were a star pupil probably made the ultimate threat if you repeated your foolishness. Your French master was obviously a very wise man ;-).

I totally agree with your further post.

Greg2 on 9th December 2023 at 14:58
Your first paragraph sums up the beauty of France so well. I see all those aspects of it and have never tired nor grown too used to it over almost twenty years. For me, there is nowhere else like it. The Brittany Coast, which is what ultimately brought us to Finisterre is stunning starting around Mont Saint-Michel and ending at Saint Nazaire. I just love it. Pont Aven is a particularly nice spot. The Celtic links are also very strong. Not so long ago, in a market, I bought some beautiful Celtic art work that you might expect more to find in Ireland or Scotland but of course Brittany is just as Celtic as those two places. Increasingly and thanks to Brittany Ferries, we see large numbers of Irish visitors here which makes up for the decline in Brits, numbers of Brits are definitely falling post the great mistake as we call it here.

I don’t think there was a French teacher alive who didn’t insist on a long format date written in French at the beginning of every piece of work, I certainly did at the outset but later, I used to allow le 11 Decembre 2023 instead because it was simply more practical. I remember back then that companies were always very willing to send out project literature and we used to be inundated with it. I can remember more than one lad doing a project similar to yours on the French motor industry and the car makers sent lots of information as did SNCF and Air France for another couple of lads.

Thank you for the link on Cold Therapy, I’ll get round to listening. As I think I’ve said, cold does improve my movement and joints. We have another swim set for this weekend that I’m very much looking forward to. There’s also a place near here with a cryotherapy chamber that I must try out one of these days.

Frank on 9th December 2023 at 22:15
When I was at school in the 1950s we simply didn’t have PE tops, kit was shorts and plimsolls and a vest or t-shirt just wasn’t included. It’s interesting to see that more and more, lads are reverting to bare skin and of course no reason not to. There may be a bit of peer group pressure but then there is about all sorts of other things too and running or doing any other PE with a bare chest never did anyone any harm.

Alan on 10th December 2023 at 03:39 and more
I'm not sure it's worth responding to you, you seem you of touch with reality but dear me, depriving children of education because they don't want it, utterly misguided. I remember when the school leaving age was raised from fifteen to sixteen. That was in 1972. For the autumn term I think my cane may have been in a bit more use than normal but all soon settled down and lads who might have left without any qualifications gained some and no doubt did better because of it. I think it’s right that children now remain at school until eighteen, a seventeen year old is a child whether they (or you) like it or not. Education is never wasted and I’ll pose the question others have and you seem to perpetually ignore. If you allow children (and that is what they are until their eighteenth birthday) to do as they like regarding leaving school, doing PE, not doing PE, perhaps doing maths or English or not, where do you draw the line? Unless you know, your argument has no credibility whatever. Choice for children in all regards is not the right way forward.

Chris G on 10th December 2023 at 09:14
My feelings entirely.

Gareth on 10th December 2023 at 09:27
Quite, I know what would have happened to me had I started stating my rights as a boy and it would not have been pleasant! Children require structure and discipline.

Jonathan on 10th December 2023 at 17:32
He sounds like a very healthy young man. I never wear a shirt in the garden in the summer either.

Ken on 10th December 2023 at 19:28
I’ll vouch for that!

Original Andy on 11th December 2023 at 07:59
Very interested in your gym routine though I fear that now, I’m a bit past so many squats!

Thank you too for making the points about adults and children. My belief too is that children are forced to grow up too quickly these days and take on ever increasing responsibility while also for many dabbling in the very unhealthy world of some of the social media platforms. Childhood is preparation for adulthood and eighteen years of preparation, looking back from now being eighty three doesn’t seem that long at all. Once you pass eighteen, there is no going back and the path there shouldn’t be hurried.

TimH on 11th December 2023 at 11:29
When I was at school, coal fires in classrooms were normal and a seat too far away was freezing – as you sat in your short trousers. The winter of 1963, by which time I was teaching, was very severe, these days schools would be closed for even a shadow of what it was like but we went to school as normal and you needed to be on time. I remember the headmaster telling us that we were not to waive the customary four strokes of the cane for lateness, because as he put it, a boy who had been out in the cold for too long would appreciate a warm bottom. In reality, no more lads were late than usual, you just got up earlier and if necessary, walked to school through the snow, usually in your navy gaberdine macintosh with bare legs showing underneath it, school cap on head, just as I had done ten years earlier and lads were still doing ten years later. Those coats were real family hand-me-downs.

Neil on 11th December 2023 at 13:07
Yes, I remember that too and as a master, I still took rugby coaching during the winter and we went outside too wearing just shorts, I never wore a shirt either so I knew how cold it was but you soon warmed up.

Kevin on 11th December 2023 at 13:17
Good and accurate points. In reality, there are no grey areas, you are an adult or a child but of course that’s only about chronological age. I absolutely agree, there are wiser twelve year olds than twenty year olds but the law of course still stands.

Barney on 11th December 2023 at 13:21
Again, totally accurate and it sounds to me like your father was a very wise man and clearly the strap worked as intended as it always would.

And Finally:
This board has really livened up in the last couple of weeks which is good to see and there’s some very sensible and realistic discussion going on. I hope I’m making a valid contribution to it and I’m rather enjoying it all. Thank you gentlemen.

A large group of boys at Queensbury in Dunstable were out at 1.30pm this afternoon doing a cross country going into the quiet Buttercup Lane off the main residential road next to the school playing field and just like I saw two weeks ago, just about half were not wearing a top and were shirtless - in December. But it is very mild today. Perhaps it is something unique to a Monday at this time, I don't know. I was driving past at the time again. I don't actually live in this area near that school but do come past a lot at certain times while delivering flowers for the local flower shop part time.

Schools have rules Alan, and are some of the things on here really that unreasonable?

What was unreasonable was when every actual adult in this country at any age was treated like a child during the covid pandemic, being told where we could and couldn't go or whether we could leave the house and who we were allowed to go and see.

Gareth on 10th December 2023 at 09:27

I remember once telling my dad that I had rights and I was pretty forceful about it. He was a mild mannered man who with very few exceptions talked through things we had done wrong and I would say almost always we mended our ways.

On that day, I had clearly overstepped the mark and as he took down the strap, I began to backtrack at speed. I was one of four boys and I doubt any of us got the strap more than twice a year but that day I did. Twelve on the bare was always what happened, after four you were asking him to stop, after eight pleading and marching and after twelve, sobbing. I remember tears streaming, clutching my burning bottom, trousers and underpants still round my ankles watching him put the strap back on the hook and he turned and told me that he had rights, the right to strap an insolent and ill mannered boy and it could be repeated any time I needed it.

I never said another word about rights!


On the broader topic of bare chests for PE, through my time at school, I never had a shirt of any sort for PE, they just weren't part of the uniform. You very soon get used to being outside in shorts - no underpants of course either back then, and you just get on with the challenge in hand. Looking at the posts here, it would seem the majority of the guys enjoyed it as did I.

I often see the lads out on the field of the school near me either running or doing other training and it's rare to see a shirt so the norm is changing back to what it was once years ago. Everything seems to go full circle.

Andy - 'The legal age of majority in the UK is eighteen and no matter how much you mewl and puke it will remain eighteen. As such a seventeen year old is a child no matter how much you want it to be different and for instance, while an under eighteen year old in some circumstances might join the military, they need written parental consent because they are children. In law, you are either an adult or a child, there is nothing in between.'



This is absolutely true. Anyone under the age of 18 is considered to be a minor. That's the law as it stands. Of course this brings many contradictions, like being able to serve in the army at 16 I think you still can if I am correct, or certainly used to be able to, which kind of makes you think we run a childrens army if you think too hard about it. There is a very strong case to lower the age to 16 for sure there is.

But the fact remains that at 16 or 17 you are legally a child still even if you are 6ft 5inches tall and have genitalia that swings between your legs that is twice the size of your own father (or teacher!).

But then I've also seen people in their early 20's less grown up than I was at 12.

Tim H

Good point about how cold schools could be, before a minimum temperature regulation came in, something like sixty fahrenheit or something. Those school gyms could be absolutely freezing at times over winter, and if you went to a school that made you do gym with nothing on your feet and no vest on then it could start off very cold indeed. I think there were a lot of times when I actually felt colder standing in the gym with just my shorts on at the start of the lesson than I did when I went outside in long sleeves and thick socks.

Following Chris G's 09.14 comment on the 10th>

'Back then' school's (& houses) weren't as warm as nowadays ans we seemed to get real winters. In the mid-50s some classrooms in my Primary School had coal fires. I'm not sure of the temp in my early-mid 60s Grammar School but I recall one winter (63/64?) my form-room was minus an entire window for some period of time, with boys sat next to the hole in their blazers. Not a happy situation - cured, IIRC, by strong input from parents & Councillors.

TH

Comment by: Original Andy on 11th December 2023 at 07:59


Ad hominen insults add nothing to you comments, nor do they do so under¨ very similar one from your friend James last evening.

Call a 17 year old ´ a child´ and I suspect you would get a very un-child like response.


You seem to want to outdo each other in old fogeyism.

Paul on 8th December 2023 at 11:02

Good luck with improving!

This guy does do things differently to any other PT I’ve worked with. Most will concentrate on a body part on a given day and you work only that part and then not come back to it for a week.

My current guy believes in a little and often – not that it’s really a little. Every session still starts with a warm up, I’m meant to do twenty minutes of cardio on a cross trainer before we start and then the further warm up is five minutes of star jumps and burpees (remember those!) that’s hard. He does those with me either as a mirror on the star jumps or alongside for burpees, there is no break in this and I’m supposed to keep his pace which I mostly manage.

On to weights and four sets of ten, it’s squats, abductor, leg press, ab crunches, bridges, shoulder press, bicep curls, chest press and of course press ups – forty at a time. The weights on the first three are high, 220kg for squats, 100kg for abductor and 260kg for leg press and 50kg for bridges. The upper body weights are much lower, all below 30kg. The break between sets is on a stop watch at not more than 30 seconds so cardio work continues throughout the session because of the pace. With the lower body stuff, he increased the weights very gradually and never more than once a fortnight and then only by 5kg at a time. Upper body stuff goes up about 2kg if at all and it hasn’t for more than six months but now I have good tone, it’s maintenance whereas lower body muscles are still developing.

I work with him once a week and do four days alone and then have two rest days. The only other advice he gave me was to start wearing compression shorts because they concentrate muscular blood flow and apparently that helps so I started – always commando before and they are very warm to wear so blood is obviously flowing but as it’s a men’s gym, I don’t wear a shirt for training and other guys don’t either. I also take my shoes off for lifting as I notice does every other guy, I can't remember the reason I was given for this but it sounded very valid at the time and as I see other guys who know far more than me doing it, there must be something right about it.

What I would add is that when I first looked at this place, it was a bit intimidating, so many super fit guys but as there’s no long contract for membership, I thought I’d give it a go for a month and I’m so glad I did. It took a few weeks to become familiar and recognise other guys but now I do and am part of it, it’s very friendly and very supportive with everyone looking out for each other and making sure everyone is safe with help if you struggle.

I think that’s it, if I’ve missed something, please ask away. It has all done me the world of good.


Michael on 9th December 2023 at 20:59

I don’t think as a boy, I ever had much of a choice about anything! It’s how it was.

Alan on 10th December 2023 at 03:39

Oh dear, is something keeping you awake at nights? A guilty conscience?

Alan on 10th December 2023 at 14:11

The legal age of majority in the UK is eighteen and no matter how much you mewl and puke it will remain eighteen. As such a seventeen year old is a child no matter how much you want it to be different and for instance, while an under eighteen year old in some circumstances might join the military, they need written parental consent because they are children. In law, you are either an adult or a child, there is nothing in between.

Alan on 10th December 2023 at 19:11

My goodness, three posts in a day. I’ve already corrected the errors you have made in this one above. A child may join the police at seventeen however they may not be a police officer until they are eighteen – by law. If the police take in a seventeen year old for questioning, because they are legally a child, they must have a responsible adult present. Imagine your world of seventeen year old police officers, they would need an adult present to question someone. You missed that bit out. Was it deliberate or just ignorance on your part?

In your world, you force children to grow up way too fast. Childhood is to be enjoyed as a time of learning and development. I think forcing children to be adults prematurely is abuse.

Will you be making a fourth post? It was so pleasant here over recent days while you were festering in the background but not posting.


Gareth on 10th December 2023 at 09:27

Absolutely spot on and I’d add, we can’t change the past and unless you want to pursue a legal case of abuse, there’s no point in someone continuing to whine and whinge about it but some here can’t resist. Concentrate on making the future better and let the past go.

James on 10th December 2023 at 17:09

Very valid points. Without some degree of compulsion and sanction we would live in a lawless society, it may suit a small minority but not the majority. The most amazing thing about all those who would advocate endless choice, no rules, no compulsion about anything is that no matter how often you ask, they don’t have any idea where they would set boundaries about anything. It’s disordered thinking.

I totally agree, education is never wasted. In Denmark for instance and because they have a much better system than the UK does, people are often aged 30 before they enter the workforce full time but when they do, they bring a high degree of expertise and strangely, Denmark has extremely low crime rates and one of the most socially just societies in the world.

Ken on 10th December 2023 at 19:28

I agree, children need structure and thrive within it gaining independence gradually. Young offenders institutions are full of children who have not had that sort of upbringing an have gone way off the rails because of it. It’s really a failure of the parents but the child suffers.

Bernard on 10th December 2023 at 22:50

Excellent points and very valid. I enjoyed PE in shorts only or plimsolls for outdoors. It was so free compared to the constraints of every day life. I think the vast majority of boys benefitted a great deal from the regime and developed physically in to fit boys and later men. It was PE at school that gave me my life long love of sport and fitness. There may have been challenges at the time but challenges are exactly that, to be an opportunity for growth. Remove all challenges and what is left? Cosseted, wet boys who whine for the rest of their lives.

I also enjoyed being bare chested. Like others, the main reason I liked it was how it felt free from constriction. At my school in the 1990s it was a choice, so you had to be brave enough to come to class without a top. It started with 2 to 3 who chose to be topless at the start aged 11, but by the time we were 12, slowly we were converted so sometimes as much as a third of the class was bare chested. It was definitely appealing to more than just myself. I was not very good at PE, but I found that being without a top made me feel more confident and I found I wasn't as bad as I thought.

I was curious about going without a top and I remember that after I tried it, I realized how much freer I felt and it felt more normal to be without a shirt than wearing one. It also meant my friends and I grew more confident about our bodies outside of school as well. Was it the same for others?

I didn't much relish the prospect of doing a lot of PE at senior school while not being able to wear a top of any kind, which was the case at my first senior school and I knew this before I started because the boy next door was a bit older than me and told me what it was like there. When I started there we were always being told to do PE in a total bare chest which was an anxious thing to do for a short while before settling in to that way of doing things. Two years later I moved to another school and there the PE gym was always in a tee-shirt and I had got so used to doing gym PE not wearing anything on top that I now felt like I didn't want to wear the tee-shirt in PE and would prefer the bare chest instead but that was never really allowed unless we went skins for team splits occasionally.

ChrisG - I too was at school over half a century ago and had to wear the same amount of clothing on my top half including the much-hated vest until I eventually convinced my mother that I really didn't need to wear one. It was indeed a relief to undress completely and put on just a pair of short, cotton shorts for p.e. and games even when we had to go on a cross country run in the middle of winter. Some-one commented a while back that you warmed up after a while or perhaps you just got accustomed to the cold - either way it didn't seem to matter much how cold it was - it was just great to be active and unconstricted.

Alan on 10th December 2023 at 19:11

Oh dear, just another rant rather proving my point. You didn't answer my question either so I presume you would rather just let chaos reign.

What's wrong, are you worried about the pending cut in your universal credit?

Ken on 10th December 2023 at 19:28

Exactly though there are those who post here who choose to remain insightless to your wisdom and would rather believe anything but the truth.

A lot of children actually like strict teachers telling them what to do.

Good intelligent kids who want to learn and do well hate soft wishy washy teachers who let classes descend into chaos with little discipline.