Burnley Grammar School

Nathan Hind 2015 - present, Graham Butterfield 1975 - 2015 and Robert Coulson 1967 - 2009 are the three people in current and long term past PE teaching who have regularly come on here and spoken about the profession in recent times on History World and this discussion has been all the better for their inclusion. But I have noticed that one thing binding those three together that sets them apart from many others here is that all of them have been prepared to give a lot of personal information, all use their full names and also tell us about an actual named school.

Good Evening Mr Chips. I am calling for a revolution in Physical Education with a ban on compulsory showers and forced changes of underwear for sport. While many schools have seen sense by either banning school showers or making them optional there are still some institutions that violate a child's dignity. Here is one such example. https://www.robertclack.co.uk/zschool-uniform

For Girls For Boys
Robert Clack Rugby Jersey in red with blue side panels** Robert Clack Rugby Jersey in red with blue side panels**
Robert Clack Black Shorts with school crest ** Robert Clack Black Shorts with school crest **
Robert Clack Red Polo Shirt with school crest ** (optional) Robert Clack Red Polo Shirt with school crest ** (optional)
Long plain red football socks Long plain red football socks
Training shoes (no plimsolls) & football boots (compulsory for outdoor lessons including football & rugby) Training shoes (no plimsolls) & football boots (compulsory for outdoor lessons including football & rugby)
Towel Towel
Change of underwear Change of underpants (not boxer shorts)
Black Robert clack tracksuit with school crest** (optional) Black Robert clack tracksuit with school crest** (optional)
Black Robert Clack leggings with school crest** (optional)
Black silk / satin scarves can be worn to protect hair during contact sports and during inclement weather conditions. They must be tied tightly at the back of the head.

Mr Chips all PE Kits must be gender neutral with all boys and girls aloud to wear boxer shorts and boys should be permitted to wear one piece swim suits. We should also prevent the restrictions in some schools where boys are prevented from wearing tracksuits or leggings or restricted to inclement weather or "at the discretion of the teacher.

Showers must be banned and boys must be allowed to wear vests or base layers under their pe kits. If necessary pupils should be allowed to come to school in gender neutral pe kits so other pupils do not see them getting undressed in the changing rooms.

Where swimming is mandated there must be private cublcles with all students allowed to protect their gender identities by covering their upper and lower torsos in the swimming pool . We must never again return to the abuses of the 1980's and the loco parentis laws which allowed PE coaches to abuse their position of trust.

I wish to back up Graham's defence there of friendly teachers.

Perhaps there is a misconception going on here on this though. Some people might automatically assume a friendly teacher equals a soft teacher, and it's wrong to think like that. I worked with a long list of very friendly teachers who were the soft spoken friendly ones but had the big stick, their friendliness did not mean they were pushovers who allowed the pupils in school an easier ride. Many teachers, including myself, over the years were actually keen to be not just respected by the class but also liked although they would hate to admit it. Well I just have. Few teachers really wish to be hated or considered less than approachable or unfriendly. Any that did wish to be like that should have found alternative ways of earning their living.

Now I also worked with some very unfriendly teachers too, personally to other members on the staff and to pupils. Did this make them better teachers, absolutely not, quite the contrary actually.

I also remember one man I worked with many years ago who was always desperately keen to keep up an austere facade in front of his class at all times but was actually nothing like his classroom persona. He just refused to let any chink of his own caring personality shine through. Gordon Brown comes to mind when I think of him, he was just like him.

You can be a very friendly teacher and also quite strict with it. Very strict. The two are not mutually incompatible with each other. It would be quite possible for me to run off dozens of personal anecdotes from my long career to make the points here.

Another thing about friendly teachers. If pupils are having troubles at home that are affecting them in school in a noticeable way then they are far more likely to approach a friendly teacher who they think they can talk to and trust than someone who isn't.

Mr Chips 29th November.

Thanks for your non-reply. You remind me of a certain doctor and barrister that I have run across on here in the past. Clearly you are another poster who thinks that your responses are sacrosanct and beyond question. That is not how a forum works but enjoy France.

Peter on 28th November 2023 at 18:19

I often think there is far more wrong with schools today than when I was teaching and the business you cite of the clothing is a symptom. It’s all about control and uniformity. In my early career, I questioned that but made no progress. Now I know that children at school should be allowed more freedom of expression and I would do away with uniforms altogether if I had my way. That woman who describes herself as the strictest headteacher disgusts me but she’s the darling of the current political class in the UK.

David on 28th November 2023 at 18:34

I didn’t say what you suggest and your resulting assumption is at best juvenile. At 74, I would have expected more maturity but I’ve also learned that maturity and age are often completely unrelated.

Graham Butterfield on 29th November 2023 at 00:07

Another one who is choosing to misinterpret what I said. Being friendly with pupils leads to more. Was instilling learning not your primary objective or was it to cosy up with your pupils?

My objective was to teach and instil learning. If that could be done in a light hearted manner then that was fine but if not, then there are other approaches available. Perhaps your primary objective was to be best friends with all your pupils and they achieved little? I would have hoped for a little more wisdom from a teacher.

Alan on 29th November 2023 at 04:12

I’ll give this a complete miss; I’ve read back on some of this poster’s previous posts and I really don’t want to engage, life is too short. Perhaps there will be a few more derogatory posts as a result of this, it seems to be a pattern. I have broad shoulders.

Original Andy on 29th November 2023 at 08:50

Thank you for your response. I see good sense here. I’m sure you did blush asking your father for money to buy a jockstrap but it was worth it. I had a not dissimilar experience all the years before you but when I got to the shop, I had to ask a woman. In those days you didn’t pick up things and go and pay, you asked at a counter and things were brought from behind it. My face was blazing.

Steve on 29th November 2023 at 09:12

It sounds like you had a completely normal experience for the times. You’re quite right of course, boys did as they were told in those days, there was no choice and I don’t think it did harm. To make valid choices, you need a degree of wisdom and maturity and not every young lad has it.

James on 29th November 2023 at 13:50

I don’t think you’re the James who has contributed to this discussion in recent days?

OA words - 'Well there are always some lifetime losers around'



Is rudeness always your stock in trade to those who hold a different opinion to you?

At my school (grammar - early 1970's), boys were ALWAYS addressed by their surnames. Partly tradition, but mostly maintaining the "status" of teachers. We always called a teacher "sir", so every statement had to end in "sir", or you were in trouble.

There has been loads of discussion on this board about kit for PE/cross country. Ours was minimal (but normal for the time) - so only shorts in the gym, cross country only shorts/plimsolls, no top. Again tradition, but also boys did as they were told etc etc.

David on 28th November 2023 at 18:34

Oh dear, I suppose you would rather have been taught by poor, ineffectual teachers and failed to pass any significant exams as long as your teachers were friendly? Well there are always some lifetime losers around.

If you troubled yourself to read Mr Chips' post, you would see that he has old boys still in touch with him, that indicates so many years later how much he was valued don't you think? Perhaps you don't think?

Mr Chips on 28th November 2023 at 15:03

Another informative post sir.

I remember in the fifth form our PE teacher telling us that as we were now 'developing' we needed to start wearing a jockstrap for rugby and other vigorous activity and where we should be able to buy them.

Usually, I had to ask my mam for money for things for school but I just couldn't face doing that so I managed to get my dad alone and just about managed to explain to him with my face burning what I needed. He just laughed and gave me the money to go to the sports shop. When I got there, I was so relieved it was a man on the counter where they were for sale.

Cut to the next PE lesson and we all had them and felt so grown up putting them on before our shorts. It was the start of a long association for me, after that, I always wore one for rugby all the years I played. I did give compression shorts a brief try when they were new but found them too restrictive, they might be better by now, and went back to my jockstrap.

These days I just do weight training in the gym so things have come full circle and it's back to commando as it was at the start of grammar school, perfectly practical and comfortable and it keeps the laundry down.

I will doubtless find myself as disliked as the man who shot Bambi's mother, but I wonder how "Mr. Chips" would cope with teaching in today's classrooms, where he wouldn't have the option of using his cane (with alacrity, it seems to me?). He talks of caning boys severely so they would'nt "re-offend", but as he enjoys his retirement in France, I wonder if it ever crosses his mind that he might have caned some lads in error?.

I am not by any means comparing him to the late Mr. Boreham at my school, and his twisted fetish, but Boreham got great pleasure out of caning and it was a matter of indifference to him who he caned. I will give one example. One day in January during my school years we were in his science lab (he taught both Technical Drawing and Science). I had a cold at the time. At one point in one lesson Boreham yelled at us to all stand up and remain silent with our hands by our sides and he told us the first person to move would be caned. This went on for about 5 minutes then I wanted to sneeze and as a reflex action I moved my right hand to my face. He caned me with six strokes. Even one of the other lads pointed out I had a bad cold and Boreham countered by threatening to cane him to for "insubordination". How can anybody have any respect for such a man?. I suspect though, teachers who used the cane to do their talking, were only respected out of fear, they were probably, at best, thought of as cranks and at worst, despised. By the way, if I ever met one of my old teachers there is no way on earth I would address him as "sir". Would anyone?

On the subject of surnames only, though it might be true that in the services this outdated mode of address is still used, schools are not a division of the armed services, despite the fantasies of some martinets who work in them. Most businesses these days refer to their employees by their forenames and even the police use forenames (I know a man who is a copper and he has told me they are very informal these days). Why prepare kids for a way of life that hasn't existed for 50 years?. They are very outdated institutions if they carry on like that today.

I've just seen the comment that David has picked up on from the gentleman going under the banner of "Mr Chips" as an elderly teacher.

As a teacher of 40 year standing myself from 1975 to 2015 in various schools and in different countries for a time I'm quite taken aback by that comment "It wasn’t my objective to be friendly, it was my objective to teach".

The very best teachers of all can actually be friendly, authoritative and respected in equal measure. This isn't about being best mates with your pupils or anything like that, there is obviously a professional distance to be maintained of course there is. There is a difference between friendly and friendship. Although I have to say I do have a couple of friendships with former pupils now both in their mid 40s who I meet socially and share a drink with if I see them in our local and have the numbers of after we reunited many years after they left school.


A word for Craig. I think you've done well to attract a group of similar minded people such as you have. I'd be prepared to join you and be your oldest member if I knew you. One of the best lessons in life is to keep active and your way of running is a perfectly healthy option. When running it's not actually the cold but the excessive heat that is the biggest problem that would see most shirtless runners going out in and that they would need to be far more careful running long distances in.

Quote from Chips - 'It wasn’t my objective to be friendly, it was my objective to teach.'


Really? So being friendly isn't compatible with an ability to teach? Cobblers to that!

I'm 74 and had some very friendly teachers, even in PE guys, who were some of the best and taught me really well. One of the old unfriendly bast*rds in Maths was the worst for teaching and discipline.

Nobody is going to argue about surnames only on the back of shirts, although the only reason for that is a commercial decision to milk money out of the sad sheeple who slavishly buy all the new latest shirts from teams every time they come out each five minutes. That's all named shirts are about. I never understand why so many people on sports clothing allow themselves to be ripped off quite willingly.

I've also read a story today about kids in a school not being allowed to wear supermarket own brand black trousers to school because they must go to one certain shop which is far more expensive. Some of these schools are now run like little dictatorship fiefdoms, and actually some supermarket clothing can be really rather good. No school should have any right to make such demands of parents about where they can buy a perfectly decent pair of plain black trousers as long as they fit and are smart and the right colour.

Paul on 26th November 2023 at 21:09

Thank you for your response to my question. I suppose a life at school being addressed by your surname prepared you well for life in the navy. I wonder, in terms of fitness you achieved at school, were you also ready for Dartmouth or did you need to do more to pass fit for entry? I know the navy has high standards, I’m just curious, did you meet them with ease?

Lance on 26th November 2023 at 22:00

I refer to your response to another poster but were you not required to do other things at school that you detested? I don’t know too many lads who loved algebra or Latin or indeed many other things. Was your dislike focussed specifically on PE or were the other things?

Danny C on 26th November 2023 at 23:13

Surnames for boys was just a tradition that was rarely if ever broken. I was addressed by my surname as a boy, as a teacher, I addressed boys by their surnames. It wasn’t my objective to be friendly, it was my objective to teach. I didn’t see it as a matter of authority or anything similar, it was just the way things were. You make a point about surnames and being uncomfortable, I would say the same applies to first names which tend to have far more variations and alternatives than surnames which remain constant. You cite this very clearly yourself in the examples you give and for what it’s worth, I know a Daniel who hates being Dan or Danny but he never minded being addressed as Murray which is his surname.

Greg2 on 26th November 2023 at 23:18

I’m so glad you enjoyed Goodbye Mr Chips; it does belong to another age and was old when I was at school but there is something about Mr Chips in the film that I admired in that he always wanted the best for the boys and I hope that’s what I did too.

I think I was valued by boys I taught – remembering that the youngest ones are now around forty and the oldest are in their late seventies, in some cases I taught a boy and his boys but any school master of long standing would be able to claim teaching more than one generation of a family. There is something very satisfying about it and it’s quite amusing when the then father comes to parents evening and calls you sir.

I don’t think I ever caned any boy frequently as you put it, if a boy was caned by me, I always attempted to make it sufficient that he didn’t want it again in a hurry and it seemed to work. I always caned more in the first two weeks of any school year than thereafter just to set the tone that my classes were about learning and discipline and failing in either regard would have a stinging consequence. It worked, lads behaved for me and worked hard almost without exception and those few exceptions resulted in a few more canings but rarely the same lad twice.

There are a few ‘old boys’ I still hear from though in retirement we moved away and are settled in Brittany, just west of Roscoff where I speak French every day, probably now my first language. We haven’t been back to the UK for quite a few years.

Original Andy on 27th November 2023 at 09:19

Ah, another one who being addressed by surname prepared well for the world of work. There are clearly still some settings in which there is more formality and the forces and the situation you cite in the court are clearly two of them.

I must say, I dislike the degree of informality there is these days though here in La Belle France, more formality still exists and I’m unfailingly addressed as Monsieur.

Marco on 28th November 2023 at 04:01 & Ivan on 28th November 2023 at 11:40

Certainly, I wore short shorts as did the boys I coached for rugby but in the nature of rugby, clothing is far tougher than it needs to be for other games and there’s also something about making it difficult to get hold of – remember the England shirts introduced in secret for the Rugby World Cup in 2000? They certainly helped England win when no one else had them but of course now everyone does. I can’t help but wonder on the rare occasions I watch football or tennis if the length of shorts doesn’t in some way impede movement, I think I would find the length extremely irritating.

The no underpants rule which was there when I was a boy and there all the years I coached was more relevant at the beginning than the end. My mother did all our laundry by hand, she really didn’t need any more to do and apart from anything else, we didn’t have many clothes, most things were one off and one on so it was sensible to take off underpants for PE when they could be dirty and sweaty as a result of the lesson because you wouldn’t have had a spare pair. Even after my mother had her first washing machine, a single tub that had an electric propellor which swirled the clothes around before she had to pull them out and put them through a hand wringer it still took her a day to do the laundry and she still didn’t need any more.

These days with automatic washing machines, we all tend to think laundry is an easy job and so it is but it wasn’t always like this and equally, we didn’t have lots of clothes. These days there is sport specific underwear which no doubt many choose to wear though while I played rugby, I have to say, and this was now forty years ago, I preferred a jockstrap over and above anything else – support in the right place and freedom to move for the biggest muscles in your body but they seem to have gone completely out of fashion unless someone knows something different.

Tony on 28th November 2023 at 13:47

I’m not sure that men are ever referred to by sports commentators in any other way than by surname and these days when names are often on the back of shirts, they are only surnames. Clearly it’s here to stay!

On surnames, Danny that was a good surname to have (Bob Champion the 81 National winner lived up to his). Pity any lad called Pratt though. You're quite correct that whatever your surname is can make a difference to how you feel about being referred by it only. The piece about the science teacher reminded me of Wimbledon tennis where the umpires only refer to the male players by surname, for example when it's at advantage points in a game or who wins each game, whilst the women, or should I say ladies as they call them at that are referred to as Miss. I wonder why they don't feel the need to use Mr for the male players. Good points though.

In reply to Marco. re the style of shorts they are much longer than the ones I wore at secondary school 1961 to 1966. The style most of us wore we similar to those shown in the pictures of the 1966 world cup. If Iremmeber correctly quite tight and no underwear.

Looking at that picture the shorts don't look as brief as the white ones we had to wear for gym in the early 80s. We had black ones for rugby and football outside too.

It's not even just the leg, though the ones in the picture look more like modern board shorts, sort of. Some of the boys seem to be wearing them quite high, almost at belly button level. I'm sure our ones had a much lower waist somehow.

A friend of mine was overweight and wore his school trousers roughly at his navel. He couldn't do that with our shorts I remember.

I don't remember fully but I seem to think the shorts really didn't comedown the thigh much, and my belly button, as a marker, was way above the waistband. At least they weren't tight though.

I was a 14 year old girl in 1990 having a teacher make me shower naked in a school changing room, it was one of the worst experiences of my life and a lot of girls would certainly agree with me that the whole experience of PE in school because of this was tainted by feeling dehumanised by the system that allowed for no compassion or dissent when it came to making us parade through a shower after PE while two women checked us over, one each end checking us all in and another checking us all out. I saw some girls openly crying after PE because they didn't want to do it.

I entirely agree with every word of Mr Chips last paragraph (20/11/23) - this is what I have said constantly on this site and it is good to see it ratified by a teacher. Thank you, and I hope ll the naysayers (like Les, also 20th November) take note. Just because some of us were made to feel uncomfortable, that is no reason to inflict it on today´s pupils.

Garth raises an issue that I raised with Nathan a few weeks ago - I think he thought I was being facetious, but it is true that these days, as so many people - including children - think they are in the wrong body, how can you tell a boy who claims he is a girl get in a group shower.

Comment by: Frederik on 26th November 2023 at 05:33

Quite amazing what some people are prepared to agree to but if you're giving informed consent without pressure then so be it. I wouldn't myself unless the price was very right. It reminds me of this question the BBC asked once. It must have been a slow news day;

Can an employer demand you go to work naked?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-42236608

Lance on 26th November 2023 at 22:00

May I ask then Lance, was it only PE you hated or was it other subjects and for instance do you think you should have been excused from English, Maths and so on but then free to take them up in later life if you had wanted to?

Mr Chips on 26th November 2023 at 18:55

At my school which was an all boys school we were addressed by our surnames with the exception of by the music teacher who was the only woman on the staff. She addressed us by first names. I really didn't mind one way or the other, you quickly get used to which ever it is.

In my professional life, I'm usually addressed formally as Mr Original Andy and that's how in the main I address others, though in court it's more formal and in the office, sometimes it's more relaxed.

Comment by: Frederik on 26th November 2023 at 05:33


".....Yes Grant I would go along with it if I was in a job like that and my boss gave me such instructions as part of my working day. If I'm being paid to do something then the boss has that right in my view and I'd readily accept it rather than blot my copybook, affect my prospects or be seen as a prude....."

Well, Fred, I wouldn't, but then I would assume that this odd employer would inform you of the condition before you accepted the job?. If you were prepared to go along with it, that would be a decision you made for yourself - it isn't like school where it is demanded of you. Same, as somebody else pointed out, if you choose to join a gym or sports club. This is another decision you make for yourself.

Somebody else asked about what you found off-putting about communal showers at school, and one of the things I Ioathed about it was being shouted at by the teacher, that, and the noise. If you ever saw the Peter Sellers film "Two Way Stretch" and saw LIonel Jeffries as Sidney Prout the chief prison officer, our teacher sounded like a Welsh version of him, but louder. That and as others have mentioned recently, the constant bawling of surnames only made you (or at least made me) feel like a criminal. You have to ask yourself why it is necessary? an ordinary state school is not a prison or a borstal, so why treat the lads as if they were inmates at one of those places?. I suspect it is the "power" thing that so many teachers have that make them behave like this.

Mr Chipping.

I soon found out that I was only to be addressed by my surname once at secondary school. It had always been my Christian name previously (Gregory is my middle name) at infant/junior school.

I always loved the old original film, Goodbye, Mr Chipps. A slightly sentimental view of old public school life I suppose, but certainly from a time when the cane, in all its graded forms, would have been in full swing. No doubt something you would have approved of.

I always thought Robert Donat a great actor, and for whatever reason, this old film was always loved by my younger brother, who at the age of 10 annotated the Christmas Radio Times back then while making note of all the tv programmes he hoped to watch, one of which was Goodbye, Mr Chipps. I still have that 1970s copy.

You also come across on here a long-established school master of traditional character. Someone I expect, ‘your many children, and all boys’ might have some affection for? If indeed you’re remembered with having helped them, which I’m sure they’d remember especially as the years have passed…though maybe not the ones you’d frequently caned! Did you ever keep in touch with any of them? How do you, or they, react if meeting up by chance again?

At my rather well regarded secondary school from 1981-1987, when aged 12-18, all my PE teachers without exception called me by my surname only. Every other teacher in the school called me by varying versions of my first name, just Dan, Daniel or lesser Danny. The only other teacher apart from all the PE ones to call boys by surname was my science teacher. He didn't even call girls by their first name but put Miss before their surnames.

I was no fan of surname only use. I'd have much rather been called by my first name at least a bit here and there. As you say Mr Chips many of these teachers probably barely knew our actual first names. Just using our surnames made them sound authoritative I suppose and gave an impression of strictness in some misguided way.

Why surname's only, what's actually wrong with using Christian names. It generally sounds friendlier doesn't it?

There was one exception to the PE teacher surname use. The school report. Suddenly they knew my name and in almost all cases became Dan or Daniel. Funny that.

How one feels about this might also depend on what your actual surname is. In my case I have a surname that was a PE teacher's dream for shouting out and using against me once or twice. I've the same surname as the winning jockey of the 1981 Grand National, which describes people who are winners. So that gained attention in PE instantly.

Mr Chips if you are interested go and read my debut comment on 19/11/2020 because I'd like your take on what I wrote that time as a gentleman of the old school so to speak.

I never handed homework in on time Mike.

Comment by: Paul on 26th November 2023 at 11:53


There's a world of difference between choosing to go to a gym and use their facilities and shower voluntarily as against having to go into a school gym you might detest and then be forced into showering after it.

Mr Chips on 26th November 2023 at 18:55

Interesting question.

At school, I was always addressed by my surname, I don't remember anything other.

On leaving school, I went to Dartmouth and there also I was addressed by my surname. Once commissioned in the Royal Navy, I was either addressed by my surname or by junior ranks as sir. Only a few close friends ever called me by my first name.

So most of my working life, I've either been addressed by my surname or as sir.

I never felt uncomfortable, addressing by surname both at school and in the navy is normal.

Mr Chips - surname use.

If you go back just a few weeks on here you will find a period of discussion on this whole subject you raise here. Infact I think it has become a subject of debate a couple of times in the past year or two.

Craig on 25th November 2023 at 23:16

My nickname from the lads was completely unimaginative, it was Frenchie and it stayed with me all the years as far as I know. There may of course have been a few others that I didn’t know about.

I think the name I picked here was perhaps a generational choice, perhaps many of you don’t know who Mr Chipping was? I’m thinking the original, not the Martin Clunes remake.

Kevin on 26th November 2023 at 02:19

Creepy Crawley applied to almost every teacher called Crawley both male and female since time began!


A general question about school days if you please gentlemen:
How were you addressed at school? Over all the years, I only ever addressed boys by their surname and indeed, that’s how I was addressed as a boy at school. When I began teaching I would say 100% of masters addressed boys by their surname only and few, including me would have known a boy’s first name. Towards the end, some masters had taken to addressing boys by their first name.

So how were you addressed and did it make a difference to how you felt?

Craig. To answer your question yes I would do so myself and have done so, in the summer months sometimes but never what I would define as out of season. I would certainly not be one of those PE teachers of old who some men here describe taking them out on the school cross country without any layers at all with nothing on above their waists. I wouldn't be allowed to do that anyway. At this time of year we stress the importance of layers on the coldest outdoors days underneath the school sweatshirt but that's up to the individual. Long sleeved sweatshirts are the order of the day over winter in PE outdoors. Many of them do just go with the one layer however. If there was a Craig like you in my classes who wanted to run like you do I wouldn't allow it in winter, more to cover my own back from behaving less than appropriately.

Most of them wear shorts outside all year around but full legs coverage is permitted under certain conditions with some jogging bottoms occasionally taken up but most do prefer going out in shorts in all weathers.