Burnley Grammar School

I'm not one of the more critical voices on here when it comes to PE teachers themselves or PE in general but having read what Kris wrote it did make me stop and think and rather agree.

Loved the orange shorts story by the way. What a shame you weren't wearing bright orange underpants to school that day too, I'm sure I had some that colour as a kid. The comedy value that would have created would have been a beauty. What would he have done then!

It is well known that in the mid-late 1940s, and throughout the 1950s. there was a national shortage of teachers. To address this shortfall, accelerated training courses were offered, particularly to ex-services personnel.

Sadly, some of these people, through no fault of their own, were nevertheless unsuited to the demands of this kind of work. The effects of what we now refer to as PTSD, were little recognised in those days, and therefore not taken into consideration.

So, I don't think most 1960s/70s ex-services PE/Games teachers deliberately intended to be boorish or impatient.

Instead, I reckon some were so indoctrinated by their national service and (possibly) the effects of WW2 or Korean war experience, that they had difficulty in re-adapting themselves to the gentler ways of civilian life.

Greg2 wrote: "There does seem to be something about the position held by boys’ Gym teachers that gives them a feeling of immense power, so much so that they become comfortably drunk on it, believing they can do almost whatever they want. It’s something that doesn’t exist for teachers of other subjects. I wonder what this is? "

I agree with you,Greg - they take liberties no other sort of teacher would take. I suspect in many cases they are over-compensating - you do not have to be so "clever" academically (or at any rate that used to be the case) - you just had to be "sporty"., so they were making up for their preceived lack of intellectualism. I also think - in the case of the teacher we were saddled with - was the extreme macho behaviour was a screen to hide his homosexuality. I doubt very much he was the only example in the teaching profession, especially in all boys schools like mine. I know that remark might upset some people, so I would just say I don't think there is a problem with geography, English teachers - or any other subject, but I think allowing them to be gym teachers, when they have the possible temptation of older lads being seen by that teacher naked or nearly naked , and dictating what they can wear, or not, is totally wrong - it's like letting an alcoholic run a pub.

The entire second paragraph of your post today Greg is spot on isn't it, so right.

The power PE teachers held over us in school was actually immense wasn't it. You could be stripped naked on demand by them with zero appeal about it. Not even the police could do that without a good reason to adults, never mind actual children of school age. There were no safeguarding policies at the time against some of the excesses some indulged.

How good is it to see some more humorous postings coming along on here like the orange shorts from you Blaine.

If bright orange had an image problem in a 1972 school gym, well I think bright orange has an even bigger image problem nowadays doesn't it, when I think of that colour in 2023 I'm immediately thinking of Just Stop Oil right now, hi-viz jackets worn in broad daylight or going back a bit to those hostage videos. I don't think I've ever owned an orange item in my life, shorts or other, not even socks.

I did used to have some gaudy coloured undies myself so green pants Tim sounds about right! Everybody at school seemed to wear the same kind of Y-fronts years back in the 1970's that looked naff, but I'd have been fine with boxers/trunks if condemned to do PE in my underwear, good ones look like a neat pair of shorts anyway. When I stopped wearing mums British Home Stores bought multipack Y-fronts in my final school year I never went back to them and nothing would make me. I got used to buying my own underwear from about 15, yet there are some men long into adulthood with partners who continue to let women other than their mums buy their pants, why?

Comment by Blaine on 12th August.

That’s really awful behaviour Blaine, and the sort of liberty that I expect only a boys’ Gym teacher would confidently take. Surprised that your parents found it funny, as I expect mine would have been very annoyed. I doubt anyone would do this today as we now have a completely different social culture, so perhaps it’s just the cultural difference from another time that influenced your parents acceptance. I hope for your sake this was not a mixed class with girls, which I expect again would be unthinkable happening to them. I’ve spoken to my sister about her Gym lessons, as she was good at Gym and in the school team. She always liked her Girls’ School Gym teacher, saying she was kind!! I doubt girls’ Gym teachers would ever behave this way.

There does seem to be something about the position held by boys’ Gym teachers that gives them a feeling of immense power, so much so that they become comfortably drunk on it, believing they can do almost whatever they want. It’s something that doesn’t exist for teachers of other subjects. I wonder what this is? Though I think I know. It would be interesting to hear what others think this might be, and the reasons for it. I certainly can’t just be preparing boys for national service, as this ended long before many of the comments made here.

As far as I remember until mid 60's underwear was to misquote Henry ford any colour as long as it was white!!! And then string underwear came into fashion. whatever happened to that?

@Blaine ...

There was a time (pre-Adidas) when shorts were three colours only: white & black/navy blue. Orange would be very risque!

And green undies? Wow! (Although I was wearing them in the late 60s).

Happy Memories!

NEVER WEAR BRIGHT ORANGE SHORTS INTO A PE LESSON.

Why?

Our comprehensive school, 1972 onwards, had no set rules on kit, we brought our own tops and shorts to P.E and these were mostly blues, blacks, whites and a few somewhat brighter shades of various primary colours.

I got given what I regarded as a quite cool pair of vivid orange shorts for my summer birthday that looked perfect for bringing to school and wearing in P.E so I brought them in with me on the next available chance wanting to be a bit flash and happy to look distinctive from all the other traditional colours the boring lads wore.

The P.E teacher I had that day rarely took much notice as we changed for P.E and so he didn't notice me until I was down in the gym, when he noticed and took an immediate dislike to bright orange shorts. I was called over face to face and asked for an explanation of my colour choice and told it was not acceptable to him and to remove them. When I protested I had nothing else to wear he simply bent down and pulled my shorts down my legs and told me to step out of them. However I wasn't wearing any pants underneath and stood there hanging out (sniggers echoing around the gymnasium) - one of our teachers often insisted on no pants under shorts but this man didn't although some of us just did that anyway even with him. I was quickly told to pull them back up and go and get my pants on and return without the shorts and do PE in the pants. I think my pants were bright green on the day, he seemed okay with that on my return.

My folks found the whole thing hilarious when I told them. I always played safe in my colour choices after that.

You bet Paul. Very similar here.

PE showed up big differences between many of us who were either great at everything, good at something, or just useless. I used to think after PE under the showerheads with nothing on was the ultimate leveller for everybody after all that.

Reading Michael's story - and many others in the past, you have to wonder if PE teachers get extra training in crassness, rudeness and insensitivity, or if they take night classes in it.

Regarding Oance's post, it reminds me of a lad in our class who, due to some very bad condition not long after birth had a scar running from his chest down to his navel, and our Mr R could never resist drawing ttention to it. What is wrong with adults who feel it clever or necessary to behave in that manner?. I often hope these people later in their lives actually grow up rther than merely grow older.

I suspect if teachers tried these sort of tricks today that they would be prosecuted and dragged through the courts. I also suspect now that boys are bigger and less intimidated, that they might turn to the tables and use their fistsif they are bullied or humiliated. To me those sort of teachers belong in the 19t centuary rather than the 20th, nd I suspect some of the relics are still cluttering up the education system now we are in the 21st century.

Forty six years later and I can still remember the moment I walked out of the first PE lesson I took which ended in a group class communal shower when I was only twelve years old and the feeling not just of immense relief that I'd finally gone through that rite of passage but also a huge sense of achievement that I had come through it completely unscathed. That might seem like an OTT reaction but I was very bothered by such a thing so it was a good result for me. I don't think I'd be unique like that, others must have had a similar thought process.

Thank you Jason and Tony for your responses to my comments. I thought I ought to mention that the PE/Games teacher at my school only took the register for the first ever session, then never again, even for years afterwards. He simply couldn't be bothered.

My friend did turn up for the first few PE/Games sessions, but he soon realised that the register was no longer being taken. At that point, he decided to abandon all that PE/Games nonsense, and bunk off.

Unfortunately, even by that early juncture, my 'card' had been definitely 'marked' by the PE teacher, so bunking off wasn't an option for me. My friend, however, was one of the 'faceless masses' so far as the teacher was concerned, and so was never missed.

Through the years, as I endured countless instances of the PE teacher's bullying, corporal punishments and petty humiliations, I was comforted by the thought that at least my best friend was avoiding it all.

Although I was desperately envious of his 'chutzpah', he knew that I would never reveal his secret, and of course I never did - until now, more than fifty years later!

I bunked off a PE lesson shortly after starting secondary school and was promptly caught out. I was trooped down to the Head's office where he and one of the PE teachers were waiting. The Head was a really decent bloke and was totally against belts or caning. He wasn't impressed with my lack of excuse and I remember the PE teacher telling me to take off my shirt. I thought it safer to oblige. I remember them both going into the secretary's office for a few mins before returning and the look on the PE teachers face told me he wasn't happy at all. The Head told me he hoped I'd quickly learn from this and it wouldn't happen again. I gave my word it wouldn't and was told I would take a 6 minute ice cold shower during each lunchtime for a week. That meant standing with my wrists tied to two shower heads and two heads were directed towards upper and lower back so was no chance dodging the icy chill of the water. We quickly found ourselves doing PE and Games lessons outside where there was a huge emphasis placed on having all lads from 13-18 stripped off as much as possible outside as well as the customary bare chested gym. Outside the PE teachers preferred vests vs skins (they're easy to strip off) or made the full class strip to the waist. They also made those lads who were naturally good at sports, and I was one, strip off for the vast majority of the time. The joy of being good at something!

What an extraordinary story Michael. You have to admire his chutzpah. I wonder if he had been noticed really and quietly just allowed to do that for some reason unknown to the rest of you. It seems an almost impossible feat of avoidance he managed there. You must have had a very big PE class.

That could never have happened at my school, even for one single solitary lesson. We had a PE register taken in the changing room. Many times I remember varying PE teachers questioning missing boys, who were simply off school completely, not just PE.

For years, my best friend at grammar school bunked off from PE/Games lessons without ever getting found out. Whilst I reluctantly endured the total misery of the thrice-weekly sessions, he found a vacant classroom and did his homework. Whilst I shivered, scantily-clad, in freezing rain outdoors, he was contentedly sitting somewhere in the warmth of the centrally-heated school. I wanted to follow his example, but he warned me that I would be immediately missed, and enquiries made. The secret of his success was that he had never attracted any attention, and so his absence was never noticed. My mistake was being poor at games or PE, so I was very much 'noticed', and treated accordingly.

Bird chest is better known as pigeon chest. A good example on wiki here. Anyone with it would have a legitimate reason to feel bothered about it and an expectation that some ignorant gym teacher wasn't drawing attention to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectus_carinatum

70s gym teachers in your standard comprehensive had it in for weedy kids with no stamina. I was a weedy thing at school even when I was 15 and possibly tipped the scales at about 7 stone or something for normal height that age but ten years later I'd filled out and gained weight to normal, not fat, and that was that. Basic biology at work, and like others say who went to schools where they would insist you could never stick shirts on doing gym, that's a big deal if you feel you are on the weedy side of things and worrying about it. I was at one of these compulsory bare chest for PE insisting schools in the 70s with a collection of PE teachers who treated the boys just like fodder and rarely like individuals. You're damned right I wouldn't have spoken up to anyone about how I felt, you'd have got a mocking response and told to get on your way. I remember there being a lot of what we now call body shaming casually being directed at many of us, and the use of the word weed was one of those terms a lot at the time. We started the new school year with a new teacher and he lined us all up along the gym walls, just shorts on, no shoes or socks or shirts, and strutted up and down along the whole line picking fault with anyone and everyone about what we looked like. I heard a phrase that day called bird chest which I didn't know the meaning of.

Considering your age and the length of time involved Cliff I found that a quite powerful piece.

I think your parents would be devastated to read those words, as any parent would. Anybody can become victims of bullying. Oh the irony of being left alone in the 'vulnerable' situation you described of all things but using PE which is physical as cover to directly assault is as you say pure cowardice and if you had responded it might well have been you instead that had to answer for your behaviour and not them.

Your own restraint shows great strength of character in my view, not weakness of any kind. Feel no shame.

Comment by: Cliff on 7th August 2023 at 22:57


Though different circumstances, Cliff, I can fully identify and sympathize with you. The primary I went to had a very strong headmistress who came down heavily if she, or any of her staff saw bullying, though of course nobody would go to her if they had a problem. As I said to Nathan the other day - it just wasn't done, was it?. There was a little bit of bullying, but nothing terrible, but the big school was led by a very weak elderly headmaster, who delegated most of his work to his deputy, who was a loud mouthed bully and disciplinarian so the rest of the staff took their cue from him, and turned a blind eye when they saw bullying going on under their noses.

In my case I was bullied because I was physically smaller (the runt of the lesson, you might say). It wasn't till I left school that I improved in height and weight, and by the time I was 20 I don't think they would have taken me on as they did back then, but I agree with you, however terrible the situation got, you just couldn't go home and complain because that is one thing boys didn't do. My parents are now dead but they had no idea what had happened to me - they knew I went to a dump and I think they were happy that I was successful out in the real world. I always maintain that you learn far more at work, among ordinary decent people. I haven't been an employee for years now, but I never had a boss who was as vile as many of my teachers. It has to be said that two of our teachers encouraged bullying to go on - especially the PE teacher, who seemed to get an extra thrill out of seeing aggressive "horseplay" and joined in with the verbal bullying. He was a very strange man. It always stays with you, no matter how successful you might become later, and that feeling of shame and inadequacy never leaves you, even though you did nothing to encourage it.

I'm 58 and spent a period of time at both my primary and then secondary school being bullied, mostly with words and intimidation rather then physically. It was deeply unpleasant and I remember one day that started very well and I was happy enough and by the end of the same day I was a wreck, upset and dreadfully unhappy and I think I was just 11. Some of the same people who did this at primary unfortunately followed me into secondary school and managed to carry on and encourage one or two others. To this day I have no idea why that happened to me, but it was probably because I was someone who went to school and actually wanted to get on and do something and learn sensibly. I certainly didn't project a victim personality or lack friendships of my own or look physically unimpressive. But I never hit back at them, not with my fists, nor with my tongue. I stayed quiet. They often tried for a reaction, but didn't get it.

I never told my parents about what was happening at school, shame is powerful and I felt ashamed to ever admit I might be getting bullied in school, or even admit it to anyone and certainly my parents. Both my parents are still alive and well to this day and neither of them has any clue of what I went to school and endured. I could never admit it and still would never do so even though I'm not far off 60.

When it came to doing PE it gave these bullies an opportunity to legitimise their behaviour when they did decide to get physical. Deliberate tripping up and all that or throwing a ball at your face from a short distance while they eyes of authority were absent. Cowards the lot of them and the one thing each and every one of them had in my case was that they didn't even manage to be average ability but fell well short, strangely envious of those they knew had something worthwhile between the ears.

As this is a PE discussion, funnily enough the one place none of these bullies ever chose to carry on their stock in trade was in that most vulnerable of school situations when exposed fully for what you are in the school changing room showers, where I was left alone completely. Naturally able at sport and confident in my own self and abilities nothing phased me at school, or PE, except for the bullies who I just could never shake off or admit to with my own family because of the shame I felt. It was the one thing I was never confident to admit and still can't, except anonymously on here tonight.

Comment by: Robbie on 7th August 2023 at 03:55


Honestly Robbie I was just average. My luck was that I had two talents that were not taught at our school - music and electronics, which I mainly taught myself (our school, of course had no facilities for either subject), and I was able to progress outside school. I think back then that people just accepted what was thrown at them. I think my mum did question the school placement, but of course the school authorities had the last word and said that it was the only school available, and it was fairly close to home. I have to say, I never had children, but if I had of done, I would have certainly been a frequent visitor, but - then again, I didn't go home and say what did happen - for one thing you felt ashamed having to admit you got the cane, even if you had done nothing to warrant it (most people will always believe there is no smoke without fire), and for a lad who just wanted to keep my head down (or up) I never mentioned the bullying. I reckoned, rightly or wrongly, it would just have made matters worse. There were two lads in my class that got it worse than I did -one was subject to anti-Semitic remarks and the other was what was then described as "backward", when all he was, of course, was just slower to pick things up. Knowing the years I spent there, I have always assured myself school was a friendly place these days - till I started reading this website and see what some people accepted as normal. It makes you think, and if he will allow me to say so, I was disappointed that Nathan said he would not change or reconsider some of his methods, even though he admitted that he was surprised by some of the goings on many of us have described. My feeling is that if you don't change and adapt, you will be part of the problem, not the solution.


Alex: I was sorry to read of your experience in that old scheme - sadly, like so many other initiatives money grubbing employers used the scheme for cheap disposable labour. I only had Saturday staff to help out with despatch in busier times, but my lads were always called by their first name, and treated with fairness and politeness and I never got any complaints - they only left when they left school and got permanent jobs. They certainly got paid better than they would have delivering newspapers. You have to encourage, not instill resentment.

A rather decent account of your school there Alan. You describe yourself as average but don't undersell yourself. Did your parents not think the school was bad enough to consider a switch to somewhere better at the time? My parents would never have stood for knowing I was in a place with such a culture as that and neither would I with my own children. They'd be out of there. Easier to do now than it was forty of fifty years ago I think.

Reading your recent comments and also Bernard's I think it is actually possible to agree with both of you at the same time even though there is a wide gap in opinion between you both.

I remember when I left school and went on one of those useless Thatcher YTS schemes getting exploited by a firm who were meant to be giving me experience of their business in various areas at a printers.. Having left school I felt a bit bigger and adult and expected to be treated as such only to get the shock of my life when a foreman asked my name, I just gave him my christian name and he asked for my full name and within minutes I was being addressed by surname only and that's all I ever was to him as I came to attention everytime my surname was yelled out and I had to do the next bit of general dogsbody rubbish for him that bore no relation to what the YTS was meant to be doing for me and getting paid an obscenely low wage for a full working week even for a school leaver. I left a month later. I remember thinking even low level young school leavers deserve a little bit of basic respect in the workplace.

Geoff: The school I attended was in a poor and run down part of the East End and it did indeed close not long after I left. It was demolished and is now called Tesco's. The school had been under sentence of death for years, since before started there, and as a consequence all the teaching staff were old men, going through the motions, awaiting retirement, and at least two of them had "problems" which I have mentioned, and others seemed to spend their lives stinking of drink or cigarette smoke, and if you want to be generous to them, I suppose you might say that they were disillusioned. Very little money was spent either on the building (it was crumbling to some extent, and repairs were temporary bodge ups) or on facilities. Luckily for me, I wasn't a bright gifted pupil - I was average. Anybody who had been deemed too bright would have been bullied unmercifully.

My point, Geoff is, just because a school looks like a prison, austere, uninviting, you don't have to treat pupils as if they were criminals. The most dour building can house good natured and understanding, intelligent teachers. Any school inspections were kept secret (I suspect not many were made because the school itself was by common consent the worst in the area). One of the problems, which I suspect still exist, was that we were in an area where the council was made up of the members of the same party, mere old timeservers who shuffled papers about, and were safe as long as they towed the party line. To answer the other poster (sorry I forgot to note your name), I think you are right - they are not "evil" - an overused word like "iconic" - they are just old, lazy and out of touch. Coming to the current day we recently said goodbye to an old councillor well into his 80s, who always appeared to take his meals liquid. After years of inactivity, shambling around he actually decided to retire. Being a good party man he could have been there till he was carried out feet first.

Going back to Geoff, our Mr. R was rarely absent: on the very few occasions he was, another teacher would take over. If it were one of the less active ones and it was raining we had a "read and revise" period for whatever lesson was fore or aft, and the more athletic ones would take us out into the "playground" (a concrete yard of course) and we would kick a football about for 55 minutes. It really was as bad as that. I think being referred to by surname only makes you feel like some sort of criminal, and is totally unnecessary - I don't know whether it is done that much today in common or garden schools (the public school system of course is still in 1948), but even in the police service now, they are usually called by their forenames. I have said before, prior to the end of compulsory military service, you could understand (if not agree with) the militaristic system because it was a taster of things to come - it wouldn't be such a shock to the system at 18 - , but seeing that conscription ended 60 plus years ago now, it seemed to be harsh just for the sake of being harsh. I genuinely suspect some teachers mistakenly believe they are "better" than men who do equally vital, but less cerebral work. These days most employers would not use surnames only to address their staff, and it is something I would never do - teachers, however, know they can get away with it - or did back then.

Bernard on your evil comment, there are many looking for evil where it doesn't exist but it's not in education but politics nowadays. Need I say more than 'Evil Tories' to press the point. The word evil just gets thrown around at anything nowadays against numerous things that people simply don't like. Well not liking something or someone does not make it, or them, evil.

How can a secondary school have only one PE teacher Alan? What would happen if he was off for any reason, was it a place where other subject teachers just got roped into standing in who were unqualified? No senior school with a decent sized attendance roll can operate with just one employed PE teacher. Did it ever have any inspections you know of or found out the outcome of? It sounds to me like a classic case of one of those failing schools that sometimes get reported where it gets shut down and reopened with a brand new name to try and create a clean slate. Have you ever named your senior school Alan, and how did your primary compare before that, was it a much better experience or did you just hate all school in general?

I think the worst thing imagineable would be to be a highly intelligent or gifted pupil who ends up stuck in a failing and poorly run school surrounded by others who don't care.

On the whole names thing you also mentioned, did you not like that? That's just how it was even in some top notch schools and there are many going back to the fifties where boys across the board in all subjects from all teachers probably only got referenced by surname at all times. I don't know what it is about PE teachers doing it though, they were in my case the only ones in school who did this with us. Surname only use is about the power balance isn't it and showing who's boss. Having said that, why didn't girls get the surname treatment in school! It's a boy thing only in most places.

Bernard: In the case of the 1980s "schools" programme, that film included scenes of full frontal nudity of pre-pubescent boys. As most of the boys will still be alive and possibly even the teacher, as he was not very old - if he is, it would be interesting if he explained why he allowed the cameras to be so intrusive. I am also surprised that the YT is still extant.


David W: A 49 year old letter from an American newspaper, eh?. Well, of course times change, and I very much doubt that such a reply would be forthcoming these days, even from an American matron. .

Let's be frank about it - the showering thing would not be such an ordeal it is started as soon as you started school, as it is, in most (British) schools it is inclined to start at the age of 11 when you go into comprehensive school, at a time of your life when there are bodily changes going on every week, boys are more vocal, every difference or perceived fault noticed and loudly commented on. Also, at this time of life, involuntary erections are likely to happen (not to me, I hasten to add, as I was too bloody frightend at school), and it is quite likely that the then 15 year old boy who wrote that letter, who is now in his 60s, of course, might have had such an experience himself, and was teased, hence his association with homosexuality, so I don't find his final comment as off the wall as you apparently do.

Thinking of Britain in the 1980s and America the previous decade, I think it is a very good thing that parents and some teachers take child security and privacy lot more seriously than they did then. And, pace Bernard, I do not subscribe to the idea that it was all harmless, good clean fun. There was often a very sinister element in the teaching profession, which, given there were no police checks, were allowed to pertain. Even today with all the safeguards in place, there are still far too many cases of teachers being bought before the courts, charged and convicted with various acts of indecency. I bet Nicky Campbell's ex teachers, still hiding in South Africa, fighting deportation to Scotland, hope that death gets them before the Scottish courts get hold of them to face their charges of indecency. You have to wonder how many more skeletons hide in the closet because the victims were not famous media personalities.

Alan - I think I missed the bit where the boys were followed into the locker room though I would expect a teacher to be close enough to maintain order if he thought that was required. A teacher would be in serious trouble if an accident happened and it was decided that this was down to inadequate supervision.
If you look at my post again you will see that I did not indicate that anything should be seen as "loony" now - I merely pointed out that 50 years ago people would have ridiculed your suggestions.
Times have changed but that does not mean that everything is better now. Some things are better now - some are not. Whilst it is obviously good to be aware, there are, sadly, plenty of people who like to look for evil where there is none.

Re: Invasion Of Privacy.

I once saw this and it's taken me ages to track it down again for your benefit Alan, and anyone else.

https://www.newspapers.com/article/democrat-and-chronicle-ann-landers-april/13943115/

A 15 year old boy wrote to a middle aged female agony aunt in April 1974 about being made to share communal showers with other boys. The answer he got was pretty un-empathetic and she considered him to have something wrong and that his use of invasion of privacy concerns was a front for covering something else up. Perhaps the clue was in the last line of his letter to the agony aunt, although I think the final comment in the boys letter was absolute nonsense. But it's the reply he received that I'm focused on for the purpose of this discussion.