Burnley Grammar School

Alex - I take your point - all those blasted cookies on websites, CCTV everywhere you go, but you are not being asked to take your clothes off, so you retain personal privacy. That said I suspect people who gawp at CCTV cameras these days are voyeuristic by nature, from the supermarket security guard to the jobsworth civil servant.

Speaking of which - from today´s local newspaper website, is the latest instalment of the story of one of our local schools, involved in the most loathsome invasion of privacy by a convicted (PE Teacher) pervert. The latest excuse for his disgusting behaviour is that he is ¨a very hygienic man¨. Surely the weakest excuse they could have come up with, and an insult to the intelligence: I have to remind readers that these disgusting events took place in the 21st century with all the alleged CRB and ¨safeguarding¨ checks:


https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/23906823.parents-helping-royal-liberty-school-romford-abuse-lawsuit/

Alex your reasoning there and conclusion is total brilliance. Not contrary at all. I hope others can see it the same way I can.

That's certainly going to set the cat among the pigeons now.

Quoting a short section of a previous Alan post here;

"if enough kids said no, there is very little the school, the teacher or the education authority could do about it, I am not anti-showering, but I am pro choice in how it is conducted. Privacy is a human right."





I find little to argue with in the above comment. But the last five words are worth picking up here. Alan have you not realised that we have all actually lost our privacy over the past 20 years, many of us handed it over willingly in all areas of our lives and it's quite shocking how few people seem to actually care about that fact. Privacy has all but gone. The school showers, for those who still have them, are the least of anybody's worries in this day and age on the privacy issue. Actually I'd go even further and suggest that a group of pupils in school sharing a shower with each other are probably in one of the most private places they could expect to be in this day and age, as contrary as it might sound.

Calisthenics is such a strange and rarely used word. I actually had to look the definitive meaning up even though I had heard it used before.

I'd be very surprised to hear that any in school are being made to do PE after the age of 16 nowadays, although that was the case years ago I think those who stayed on at my school were required to do at least something to fill up gaps in their week.

Malcolm on 7th November 2023 at 01:12

I would agree, if a teacher said you did something you might as well own up. I was sent to the headmaster once accused of 'brawling' in the school yard. I hadn't been but of course the teacher was believed. I protested once in the headmaster's study.

The result, the cane of course, four for brawling and two more for insolence. It was always better to keep quiet and take it.

Comment by: Derek on 6th November 2023 at 20:40


I genuinely hope that is the case, Derek . Perhaps Nathan, who is currently a PE teacher would be good enough to let us know?

The first time I was caned in school was in 1959 and I couldn't believe how much it stung my backside. I was 12. My shorts were dropped a little bit and it was direct on the skin. Just one strike and it left a mark that was still visible more than a fortnight later and the sting lasted very many hours and just when I thought it was gone if I rubbed my buttocks in a certain way sitting I felt it again. The only reason I got given it was because I looked out of a window and wasn't paying attention for a few seconds in a gym hall during the p.e class doing calisthenics. That teacher didn't like me and sent me to the headmasters study and basically fabricated a tale that I was regularly daydreaming in class which wasn't true. The headmaster believed the teacher and not me, wasn't it always the way. You would rarely win against a teacher.

Warren on 6th November 2023 at 13:03

You make very valid points, I recollected a few posts back that when I was at school and corporal punishment was very much the order of the day, capital punishment was still on the statute books and indeed I remember the morning of the last hangings - one in Liverpool and one in Manchester on the same morning. In that context you can see why corporal punishment was not questioned.

Those now being made to stay at school until they are 18 are not being made to keep doing regular normal PE lessons from 16 to 18 are they?

Doesn't what I'd describe as normal PE end at 16 and anything after that is a choice?

Warren - it went on in state schools well into the 1980s - though it tended to be what might be called the hard-core teachers who still employed it, a couple of ours did. But here is a question for both Graham and Nathan if they don't mind answering it: It is 2023, I am 17(in some ways I wish I was!) I have been forced to stay on at school thanks to the economy, though I have tried to get a job. You tell me to take my top off, or take a shower and I say no. A simple question: how would you deal with it?. Unlike the 1980s you couldn't use threats of canes, slippers or touch me. What would you give me? - detention?, lines?.

I'd genuinely like to know how teachers would cope with such a situation today.

There could be much younger people and those at school right now who might read a comment like Barry and think that's unlikely but it's definitely not. If you were at school in the 70's getting on for the best part of fifty years ago now and more (horrifying isn't it) then teachers of all kinds were more than useful with their hands on you when they felt like it, not just the PE teachers but name any other subject and a certain type of person, mostly men it has to be said, would sometimes get physical quite directly against the person.

Nowadays there is a fear of so much putting a fingertip on anybody, even probably for friendly contact. I remember a boy in my class getting pulled up out of his chair by his hair from a teacher and when he finally sat down it had obviously hurt because his face was red, his eyes were watering and he was clearly trying hard not to cry about it. For me that is physical abuse and I remember the guy this happened to because he was one of the quietest in the whole class, no trouble ever, but it didn't stop this kind of teacher acting like that.

So when Barry says what he says I know he's talking reality for many of us here. Nobody ever had to encourage me to jump in a shower after PE, I just got on with it as quick as I could but I'm sure the whole thing could have felt very intimidating to those who disliked PE and the compulsory showers that went with it because some of those PE teachers were, even by my own admission, quite intimidating characters that you would not wish to openly confront or even wish to show any signs of weakness in front of.

Another beautiful morning when I really enjoyed my gym session. After two weeks of half term here when there have been a glut of teenagers in the gym in the mornings when they are usually at school, it was back to just us old gits this morning and so much nicer! You can just get on with your workout without youngsters staring at their phones, taking long pauses between sets and taking an age to complete something, we older guys just work.

Then walking home, I paused to watch the lads at my old school out on the field, it was rugby training this morning complete with scrum machine and their performance was impressive. When I was at school, I was a prop given my size but now when I look at the lads, they are all huge compared to how I was back then. I doubt now, I would even make the team.

Of course sports nutrition is a science these days, something I don't think I had ever even heard of and even if it did exist, my parents would never have been able to afford a specific diet.

On that front, things are definitely an improvement.

Barry on 5th November 2023 at 20:06

I totally agree, there seems to be a belief these days that because children have rights and opinions it was ever thus. It certainly was not. I remember once telling my father that I had a right to be heard and his response was that I only had a right to do as I was told as he took off his belt.

Things have changed dramatically over the last 50+ years, mostly, but not all for the better. Sometimes it's beneficial to be forced to do something you would choose to avoid because when you start, you find you enjoy it. I'm not sure how often that happens these days.

I wonder if any sports master would dare play pirates for instance, a game I was frightened of when I first saw it but I got to love it very quickly, particularly climbing ropes but I would imagine that rope climbing has been risk assessed away.

I've seen a couple of sports masters comment here, can they throw any light on pirates today please?

Barry - mine would have been the same, and he would have especially enjoyed it. He liked a bit of physical contact!. But the question is especially interesting now that boys and girls are forced to stay at school till 18 by government edict, if they can't find jobs (and is thanks to the inefficiency of both the current and the possible future government which has caused this, since you couldn't get a bus ticket between the buttocks of either party on most things).

By the age of 16 you are considered an adult - they might even be voting by the time of next but one election. At 18 they can get married without permission, join the army, sign an HP agreement etc, without parental guidance. Is it proper that some bullying teacher can force them to do anything against their will?. I know if I had been one of the current crop "Rebel" would have been my middle name. Also, of course, they can no longer use corporal punishment so - if this situation does pertain in schools today - if enough kids said no, there is very little the school, the teacher or the education authority could do about it, I am not anti-showering, but I am pro choice in how it is conducted. Privacy is a human right.

I was always told that when you try and tell people what to do as a mandate they tend to do the opposite.

Not always the case though is it.

James is right. The use of our school's PE showers up for discussing, never in a million years was that going to happen. We had a PE teacher who would physically manhandle you and I've no doubt this large man would have picked up my scrawny body at the time and launched me through the air into them if I'd said I didn't fancy showering after PE, and if you think I'm overdoing it saying that, think again.

Whether he had the right in law who knows about that but I'm sure plenty of rules were stretched or bent to breaking point in schools and this might be one of them. Good question to pose though, it got me thinking.

Comment by: Jono on 4th November 2023 at 21:46
Craig, thanks for the interesting post. Though I don't live anywhere near I hope this is a success. Have you been out lately? I didn't mind doing cross country without a vest and was out in all weathers. Did you experience bare chested exercise at school?


Thanks Jono. Yes, we've been out at 9am this morning with 4 of us for about 45 minutes on a nice little rural route we drove a short distance to and did, which we could do because there were just the four so we car shared. We choose different places if we can, although I know what some might think about using a car to go running. A lot of time we don't do that. We won't be expecting to get the numbers over the next few months like we have done over summer. We try to arrange it so we normally get about 6 or 7 but today's 4 was fine, and I have been out in a pair before now myself. I would strongly advise anyone thinking about it to at least give it a go once as you might be surprised at the outcome, it does wonders for your overall wellbeing and the more you do it the more benefits. Obviously running generally will deliver those benefits bit going bareskin running adds another dimension that many of us feel so it can't be imaginary. It is never quite a cold as you think it will be on a morning like today which started off quite damp and misty before the sun came along by the time we finished.

I absolutely did experience bare chested exercise at school many times in PE when we were told to do it that way.

Neil on 5th November 2023 at 15:19

On communal showers, it was never up for discussion with a PE teacher who had a size twelve plimsoll at the ready.

In those days you 'did as you were told' and it certainly did me no harm. I loved sport and would change nothing about my time at school in the 1960s.

I agree with Neil - an interesting question. Of course, up until the time that the cane and other physical punishments were made illegal, the teacher had the ultimate threat, which many no doubt would have used.

I do wonder if prospective PE teachers ever learn about gymnophobia?. I have no doubt they are told how to shout, berate and so on, and act like Alec Ferguson on steroids, but do they teach them anything about psychology?:

https://www.dovemed.com/diseases-conditions/gymnophobia/

Just Stop Showers is just a bit of a joke really isn't it, perhaps one for Mr Dando of old and Biff sounds like a school days nickname thing to me. They have stopped them in half of schools anyway haven't they, even though long ago on here there was some comment that they have to lawfully be provided for anyone over eleven in school who does physical education, but providing or having to maintain compared to using are not quite the same thing are they, whether voluntarily or even having to do so.

I'm quite interested at this from a legalistic point of view. I'm not a lawyer but I really rather doubt that any of the schools that any of us went to in the past had any legal authority to demand that anybody who did not wish to shower at school, communally and naked among others, must do so. A firm refusal to do so and what could they have done, quote some education law at you that meant that a teacher had full legal authority to compel anybody to do this, I doubt it.

It reminds me of the lockdown and how so many people just complied willingly and went along with 'how things were' despite many of them not wishing to. This happened in schools with communal showering and people like the Alan's of this world probably only ever had to say no. I'm just the same here, I was mandated to use showers in school and we all just went along with it unquestioningly at the time. I wasn't as concerned as some people are but certainly the legalistic side of school shower use and mandate is I think rather an interesting one.

Comment by: Craig on 3rd November 2023 at 23:19


Couldn't help but notice on the Feel Alive Outside website that at the end of the 'bare skin' video even that seemingly confident and very decent looking lad expressed a certain amount of self consciousness about being shirtless running in public.

"Biff" (!?)

You completely miss the point - perhaps deliberately?. I am all for cleanliness, and I repeat - yet again (for your benefit) that if people are happy doing anything (within reason) then they should be allowed to do it, by the same token if they are uncomfortable and there is a compromise then use it. Not every adult is comfortable with group showers, and elect to wear trunks or shorts under the shower. Who are we to say no. Freedom - as Orwell pointed out - is "the freedom to say two and two makes four". This is supposed to be a free country, not North Korea.

Ever thought about starting your own protest group called Just Stop Showers Alan?

Craig, thanks for the interesting post. Though I don't live anywhere near I hope this is a success. Have you been out lately? I didn't mind doing cross country without a vest and was out in all weathers. Did you experience bare chested exercise at school?

It's not a dismissive attitude Alan, it's a practical common sense attitude.

Comment by: Geoff on 4th November 2023 at 13:39


Yes I am aware of that Geoff, however, I was just trying to show in a gentle way how Graham was obviously completely insensitive to his pupils concerns - the old "teacher knows best - do as I say" attitude which has always riled me. His return question to those long ago pupils was ridiculous, if I might be allowed to say that, because at home they wouldn't have been sharing their space with 30 other lads. He was comparing apples with oranges. The fact remains that - as has been proved on this site many times - some men did feel very uncomfortable being forced into that situation when they were at school. The dismissive attitude Graham demonstrates, probably put more lads OFF sport than encouraged them. I know years ago I had a music teacher (this was post school) whose attitude so p*ssed me off, I might have given up altogether had I not left him and paddled my own canoe. As it was I did far better without him, than I did with him.

Unisex places were not the point though were they Alan, you've just changed the goalposts there. I know he said regardless of location but I think you know full well he almost certainly meant same gender areas and there was no need to bring girls or women into it.

Comment by: Craig on 3rd November 2023 at 23:19

This whole back to nature thing of swimming in lakes and rivers, barefoot running and running shirtless which seems to be gaining popularity is right amusing at a time when we have never had so many good swimming leisure facilities and unlimited choice in expensive air cushioned trainers and designer label sports tops to do all these things in but perhaps it's because of these that there are increasingly people who want to go back to basics. At least it's free to do. Good luck to anyone who takes it up.

Comment by: Nigel on 3rd November 2023 at 18:06

Quite often men leave their swimming trunks on when they shower after their swim, Nigel. Again, in unisex modern leisure centres, they would have to, wouldn't they?

Almost everyone showed reluctance heading into the showers. Teachers always had a hard job making sure we all did though. There were no really keen boys. When I think back to school in the early 1980s I can't believe we had to do it so much at the time. If many schools showers had been inspected I think they would have found them to be quite unhygienic places where you picked up bugs and infection. I used to wonder how many other peoples feet had been standing where I was. I had two foot infections from a school changing room. I might have actually stayed cleaner if I'd kept out the school showers rather than been told I must step in our school's one twice weekly to please the teachers. I never saw anyone try to wear shorts by the way. If someone had tried to I think they'd have got them ripped off pretty quick fast knowing some of the chaps I knew.