Burnley Grammar School

I'd like to share this video and website with you of one of our bareskin runners.

https://feelaliveoutside.com/bare-skin-running/

Who showers with clothing of any sort on, regardless of location, solo or not. Think of it as another lesson in life, although it shouldn't need to be taught should it. I think Graham was right there. Pandering to such requests like Graham mentioned is not the answer to extreme modesty issues. I now know that because I was one of those boys who had to be told off in a school changing room for being reticent about taking all my clothes off and showering with my class. I later realised my PE teacher was right and I was wrong. It was awkward at the time but far better for me in the long run. I think I may have ended up less confident if I'd been let off things in PE when young than being made to face up to them a bit.

Comment by: Graham Butterfield on 3rd November 2023 at 13:52

"I encountered a couple of times requests about the possibility of wearing a garment such as shorts in the shower when I was teaching, this will be some 25 years ago now ...My response to these were quite simple by answering with another question - Would you wear shorts in the shower at home? When the answer came back as no then I would simply state, there's your answer then, and there would be no further discussion and we'd get on with things."

Graham , with the greatest respect, would it be otiose to point out that in the home the lad was, in all probability, showering alone, and in privacy. At school it was a group situation. Do you REALLY not see the difference between a private scenario and a public one, and the difficulties or anxieties that such a situation might cause - even for some adults, let alone boys?. That would have been my answer to you in 1998, as it is in 2023.

I encountered a couple of times requests about the possibility of wearing a garment such as shorts in the shower when I was teaching, this will be some 25 years ago now I should think in the instances I am actually thinking of here. My response to these were quite simple by answering with another question - Would you wear shorts in the shower at home? When the answer came back as no then I would simply state, there's your answer then, and there would be no further discussion and we'd get on with things.

Comment by: David W on 2nd November 2023 at 13:08
"This shorts in the shower thing has never made much sense to me. The shorts get wet, so have to come off at some point anyway, so what's the point in that. "

I agree it might be uncomfortable, David, but I think it just reflects that men are more conscious of wanting privacy these days. Most modern leisure centres these days, for example, are unisex (I suppose for reasons of economy rather than modesty), and if you shower with shorts on, you will have your own private locker space to remove them, dry off and get dressed again. I don't think this is a bad idea at all, and you have to remember we are long past the days when you were forced to join the military where you just did what you were told without question. It just reinforces my point that everyone is different and what's easy for one will be difficult for another, and I think school students deserve the same consideration that adults expect now.

This shorts in the shower thing has never made much sense to me. The shorts get wet, so have to come off at some point anyway, so what's the point in that.

Your obstacle course training in PE Nathan brought images of going to Crufts one year and seeing the dogs running their timed course around, up and over a layout. It sounds different to anything I did.

I just wonder if people like you Nathan who work in schools that still go with the required showering after PE would prefer it if this was no longer a part of your job at all. Do you allow them to wear shorts in the shower or is it traditional methods?

Good call Nathan, that sounds like a sensible deal.

An interesting snippet there of your day today. Thanks for sharing that.

Comment by: Jeff Knight on 1st November 2023 at 16:35

I take your point Jeff. I used to play truant on Wednesday afternoon during my third year, because we had games/PE all afternoon - no other lessons at all. Amazing how many ¨dental appointments¨ I had that year!. The next year it was woodwork all afternoon, which was better

Hugh's weekend comment.

I will happily provide further details of my own if you place a link to your practice website (NHS or private?) on this forum making reference to your good self.

I'm not naive but it would not have even crossed my mind that anybody would wish to contact my school knowing my ID simply because they disagree with me over something. I think you own comments were extremely unwise and feel sure you probably know that by now.


I've spent my day outside laying out cones and markers to develop techniques and improve developments for all round competitive sports. In short cutting it to plain English, obstacle course training. This is so we can check on performances compared to previous ones and see any improvements, or not. It's always popular. The aim is that everyone can tackle complex and demanding physical activities. This kind of day is one of the most physically challenging PE lessons. So to the person who asked a couple of weeks ago how many showers I supervise each day, today was three but it's normally just a couple or even one.

Timothy on 29th Oct - 'Having read back the last 20 pages on here this evening I see a lot about shirtless PE and also shower fear.'


That's because it was all so common if you went to school in the days most of us over 35 did. Concerns about these things seemed commonplace, as did generalised PE phobia if the amount of truancy I remember was anything to go by.

Just to say I went to the gym as usual this morning and walked along the boundary of the school I attended as a boy. Normally lads are out doing sport and I often stop to watch but this morning, I couldn't because it's half term.

I don't think anyone can argue with the last comment that Alan has said here can they.

Everyone's different, remember that.

I'd genuinely like to thank Steve and Ian for their support in their posts. I can assure you this "dangerous individual" is nothing of the sort. I have genuine reasons for feeling the way I do. I can also assure anyone reading that as I am not omniscient (nor mentally ill), I would not wish to disrupt Hugh or anybody else's career, as making false allegations would be a criminal offence, and it would be very hard to do so to somebody whose identity and location is unknown to me. How many "Hugh's" practice medicine. How many Alan's are small businessmen?. I have been quite open about my location but I have again posted my email address so if Hugh or Original Andy or anybody else wants to contact me privately, please do so. I can assure these paranoid gentlemen that I have no means or desire to mine their data - again totally illegal, a totally outrageous suggestion, and it would be very hard for me to run my business - established 14 years now, to operate from prison. Honestly this nonsense should stop. It is as boring for ordinary readers as it is for me.

Comment by: Hugh on 30th October 2023 at 16:44
I regard Alan as a dangerous and manipulative character, just look back over the pages and years to see example after example.




No self respecting general practitioner in the medical profession would ever make the comment above that you have left on this forum tonight about an individual that they have never even met.

You're quite right to ask that question Mick.

Real GP's haven't got the time or inclination to faff around with such trivia on forums like this, they're too busy. Real GP's don't sound off like that either, especially older maturer ones. My sister-in-law is in GP practice. I also suspect that the person you allege to fear causing you professional distress from these boards would have far better things to do with his own time than waste it bothering a GP he doesn't even know, and about what exactly?

Just admit you've been caught out. As Mick said, your answer to Nathan gave the game away didn't it and deflecting back on somebody who has already provided a full name and details of their workplace in a school (which I've had a thorough look at) with demands for more out of him, while refusing to give anything up about your own background that you make claims about on here isn't cutting it with me. Do you really think readers are that gullible.

Pete on 29th October 2023 at 22:59

I think you missed the point I was making. That sort of disclosure is not appropriate however someone asking you to do it must surely set an example by doing it themselves? I didn't expect Nathan to disclose any more than he already has.

Mick on 30th October 2023 at 15:15
My comment is a very serious concern, the General Medical Council investigate anything and everything these days and you are guilty until proven innocent.

I regard Alan as a dangerous and manipulative character, just look back over the pages and years to see example after example.

Comment by: Hugh on 29th October 2023 at 11:17
Nathan Hind on 29th October 2023 at 01:51
I wouldn't be willing to share my professional details because who knows what sort of allegations might be made about me by one poster in particular. I certainly don't wish to spend my days refuting allegations at hearings rather than treating my patients.




Allegations about what and made by whom, Alan here?

Your comment cannot be a serious concern and leaves me sceptical about your background, which is a shame because I tend to agree with your points and have taken you as a serious contributor. This answer reveals enough for me.

But Tanya you wouldn't have been placed in that position in the first place would you, as a girl.

Your PE teacher Timothy is the type who would have really got on my wick there for doing that. There really were some bloody minded types. Your well kept front gardens line made me think of Hyacinth Bucket seeing a group from the local school pounding the tarmac past the house. Imagine what she would have said, the curtains would be twitching.

James & Mark J.

Go to the blog link of the whole site and you can see the site is managed by "Brian" and there is an email available. Last comments seem to be from 2020 though. I guess it's "Brian" reading these and deciding who gets posted up. Agree, wouldn't hurt for the site owner to drop a line on his busiest thread would it.

Hugh can you not see how it's a bit rich to ask somebody who already has their full name and occupation out there to add even further details whilst at the same time you make your case for not doing so with anything at all. It doesn't really work does it if you want to be a trusted source.

James tonight at 7.27pm makes some good points there. I don't think this site is purely automated is it. Someone is checking our comments before they come up. Would they care to acknowledge themselves, it would be nice.

I spent six years at secondary up to A levels from 1974 until 1980, four years normal school and two in the sixth form. Four of those years from 1974 until 1978 involved at least two PE lessons each week and now and again a third was dropped in.

It was shirts off in PE from the moment I arrived, right up to O level time. I didn't even bring a top to school on gym PE days, nobody did. We could wear shorts of our choice in any colour. I think there was a mix of bare feet and trainers in the gym, so whichever suited. I wore trainers. But the shirts off rule was universal and applied to everyone in PE who was a boy.

I can remember one day that was really rather lovely and we were in the gym one day and our PE teacher decided it was far too nice to remain inside and so we went back out the gym to the adjacent courtyard and started limbering up with him for a run instead, in our shorts and shirtless, one or two boys even in their bare feet, and off we went filing behind him for a jog around the local neighbourhood streets, along footpaths past lots of well kept gardens, avoiding the occasional dog walker or pedestrian and even having to stand and wait to cross roads for traffic as we went. The regular cross country route we took with another guy when outside (in tops) this most certainly was not. I actually thought it was quite a laugh but we did have one or two cry babies in PE at the time who made a fuss. I also remember some of the girls in the nearby English block looking out the window and laughing at us when we set off from the courtyard. Thereafter I was always prepared to expect the unexpected and we did the same thing probably another five times.

Having read back the last 20 pages on here this evening I see a lot about shirtless PE and also shower fear. I think shirts free gym might have been seen as more normal than wearing something then. Then the words I first heard about showering when I started at secondary school remain clear, there were 2 teachers standing in our changing room and one of them told us we had to shower at school from now on after PE and that he didn't want to have to put up with any nonsense about it from anyone, that we all looked the same. Taking just 3 seconds too long to get in the showers was considered timewasting and got you a clip on the back of your head too when I began.

I'm not sure many of us would have ever confided much in our PE teachers if I am truthful about it. They just didn't seem the type of people you would want to do that with. We just did as we were told when we were told to do it and got on with it to the best of our ability. The PE teachers were all basically fine but very much of their time I think, which by today's new rules makes some seem like little sh*ts!

Yes Chris G, well said. There was a period just over a year ago with this going on for a while.

Unlike many forums where posts appear immediately they are sent, this forum often takes many hours to place a post and sometimes they fail to appear at all. So my question is why are clearly troublesome gaslighting posts and highly personalised comments being tolerated, obviously read prior to appearance and then published by the history site owner, and even more interestingly why is there never any interaction from this site owner/moderator among any of these discussions like many forums do to keep good order.

Chris G on 29th October 2023 at 16:46

Hear, hear. But the problem is that only certain memories are allowed, only bad ones and no one was allowed to have enjoyed school and heaven forbid anyone liked PE.

Given the pic, when you disallow those things, discussion gets a bit difficult when poster after poster sharing innocent memories are recently as this last week is accused of any interest being inappropriate and stopping to watch sport is 'loitering'.

I just want that behaviour which goes back through 184 pages and since 2009 to stop. I don't think that's asking too much?

Ladies and (predominantly} Gentlemen! This site is meant to be devoted to documenting English History in photographs, so can we please stop all of the bickering and inter-personal aggro that seems to be dominating comments just lately.

By the same token, could the site owner use his/her best efforts to restore some sense of civil behaviour, and correct the irritating typo to one of the photographs - It's "County" not "Counry"

Alan on 28th October 2023 at 15:33

Yes, I remember you wanting to email me but why on earth would I want to engage in email with a troll like you? Goodness only knows what would have happened to my data.

Funny you remember that but not the positives about Hugh and that his identity was confirmed by others at the same time. Then it doesn't suit your agenda does it?

Your suggestion that someone share their professional status here is the sign of a drowning man, desperate to cling to any piece of flotsam you can think of and when he refuses, again, take aim at his credibility. Why not challenge others to do the same? Oh, that doesn't suit the Alan agenda does it because Hugh has called out your behaviour for all to see.

Comment by: Hugh on 29th October 2023 at 11:17
Nathan Hind on 29th October 2023 at 01:51

"I wouldn't be willing to share my professional details because who knows what sort of allegations might be made about me by one poster in particular. I certainly don't wish to spend my days refuting allegations at hearings rather than treating my patients. "

As you have attempted a psychological analysis of me on these pages, might I respectfully suggest there is a degree of paranoia in this post?. How many Hugh's are there in the country, practising medicine?. Many thousands I should think. But what am I to know? I am just an ignorant old hobbledehoy who deals in surplus electronics (best prices paid and quotations on request).

It is for Nathan to speak for himself, but in my opinion he has made it very clear where he teaches and made other information freely available. I don't doubt his voracity. As previously mentioned, I gave my name and email address in an attempt to mollify a somewhat abusive keyboard warrior, who persists to this day, and I imagine it could easily be found if you have time and inclination to go back through all these pages. Should you wish to contact me privately please feel free to do so, but I imagine, like the other guy, you prefer to snipe in the background.

Nathan, I have never, at any time, suggested you were anywhere near as bad as our wreck "R", indeed, in this day and age, the pupils themselves would probably have got him out, and my criticism of you has only been that, in common with most teachers, I feel, you treat every lad as if they were exactly the same with the same feelings, though I accept if you are willing to discuss concerns privately with them, then clearly you are not too bad. My mention of that bizarre open showers organisation is that, like naturism, for example, it's adherents seem keen to encourage others into their way of life. probably because to them, it doesn't seem bizarre.

I completely agree with you that if somebody has professional qualifications they should not mind being asked to display them. Clearly, you have nothing to hide, or you would not have been so open. I do not profess to be a doctor (and judging by the conduct of some of them I am very glad I am not!), but I do have a friend who is one (we share a mutual love of music, the sort I used to play), and speaking to him this morning I asked him what his qualifications were, and he quite happily told me: BSc MB BS MSc MD.

See - even an ignoramus like me knows a few brainy people.