Burnley Grammar School

Here's another current comment posted just 2 days ago on the shirtlessblogspot forum that was linked to a few weeks ago on here.

This site appears to criss cross between American and British comments on the whole subject but someone did ask for more comment from over here.

https://shirtlessbarefoot.blogspot.com/2018/05/how-to-start-shirtless-sports-and.html

"Matt" says the following,

"My boy is ten years old and goes to a UK primary school at the moment. We are only required to provide him with some plain shorts of any colour without a pattern or outward very obvious branding for his PE lesson at school when he is inside. His school appears to have taken boys PE without tops on for as long as anyone can remember who previously went there and school website mentions compulsion on no tops, saying that 'we require boys go bare chests with bare feet and shorts for PE inside'. I found it interesting when I first discovered this because I never did any shirtless PE at that age, although did so later on when I was 12 to 15 for a bit here and there. I'm alright with it as long as everyone is treated the same. When I was at a parent afternoon last year I brought the subject up briefly with a teacher who said most boys have no problems and they think it gives added confidence to them to do PE this way over time and fosters acceptance of themselves and others around them."


Last week, 11th February, there was a comment from "Ben". I wonder if it's the same person Richard said hello to on here? He said,

"For some shy boys, getting used to bare chested PE can actually boost their confidence in the long run. I know this because I was one of them!
As a 13 year-old (early 1990s in the UK) I was quite self conscious about my body so I felt extremely nervous when my PE teacher announced we'd be doing basketball and the teams would be shirts and skins. I remember my heart racing, thinking 'surely he doesn't really mean we've got to do it with no top on?!' Oh yes he did and quite soon I found myself having to take my PE shirt off, leave it by the side of the gym and line up with the other bare chested boys, feeling terribly exposed. At first it felt so weird to be running around the gym in just my shorts, but after a few weeks or so I thought about it less. Growing older, and as my body developed, I felt far more confident, to the point where I actually preferred being a skin."

It's welcome to see another broadly sensible PE teacher comment come along.

I didn't think the questions were relevant to anything Yours Truly if I am honest and aliases are fine if someone wishes to remain more anonymous, like you do for example, but at least stick to one name if you choose to do so.

I'm pleased I had dark brown hair now after reading the ginger comments.

I was a ginger haired school boy and almost everything Russell has just said on here is correct, even down to those most private comments in those PE shower situations when you get seen in all your glory by others. It creates self esteem issues.

It was interesting to read your own approach there Neal Wilkinson. While all teachers struggle to motivate pupils who lack interest in any given subject, PE teachers do face a number of unique challenges others do not, some of which you outlined rather well, and it's informative for those not in the profession, and wider education, to gain a little understanding. Nowadays schools have all kinds of policies to do with behaviour and expectation that did not once exist other than in the most cursory terms. Another misconception is that showering at school was abolished a number of years ago, yet in 2014 when I stopped working for Ofsted our working assumption was that more than half of schools at secondary 11+ level still held such requirements. None have to enforce this by law, but they never had to fifty years ago either to the best of my own knowledge, but working facilities to enable showering are a lawful requirement set out by the Department for Education in all settings for those aged 11 and over and this remains the case right now because anywhere offering physical education like schools have to maintain a basic level of hygiene provision. You will already know that Neal I'm sure but just saying that for others here to understand. I'm pleased your school takes this seriously although I tend to prefer the carrot to the stick approach where possible.

William J, My experience was similar to yours. I wasn't as bold as you but I do remember making the transition from shy and nervous to confident, thanks to the old school gym regime. Like you, I noticed the boys who were bashful, usually using the shirt as cover, and thought it looked silly. I didn't want to be like that.
The more confident boys also followed the tradition of keeping shorts for as long as possible and turning over the waistband to keep them up when the elastic slackened. Since we never wore tops in gym, by the time we were 14 coverage was minimal. No-one ever commented on this, boys or master; it was just something we did.

Hi Andy,

I thought the questions Ash or/and Samuel asked were very relevant ones.

Comment by: Mark on 18th February 2025 at 21:30


"....I'm disappointed with your attitude to judo in school Alan and agree much more with Charles. I think it would be good to have some form of controlled aggression in that way for boys who liked doing that kind of thing....."

That';s OK, Mark - I am used to being disagreed with. I do agree with the last nine words of that sentence of yours . IF some lads want to do it - fine, let them get on with it, but don't force it on anybody who doesn't want to maul others about. Somebody on here last week mentioned that their P.E. teacher openly encouraged boys to be aggressive to each other as a form of punishment, and I imagine such antics would go down with that sort of teacher.

Andy, I will treat your attempt at stirring with the contempt it deserves!

Comment by: Yours Truly on 18th February 2025 at 23:27
Kids will literally zero in on any detail that makes one of their peers stand out, won't they? Personally I have always liked ginger hair
I'm sure the prefects at Eton used to stand around him in a circle in the showers and point at his groin and laugh, the cruelty of Eton prefects has always been legendary.



Tell me about it Yours Truly. :-(

Is that true about Harry by the way? It sounds quite believable to me though. I'm was a blazing red head, really dramatically so as a schoolboy in the 70s and part 80s. I was always getting it in the neck from other kids and teachers right up to the headmaster. There were other ginger kids at school but not in my classes.

There was a time when I was at school, I must have been twelve years old I guess, doing that comprehensive schools shower thing and a kid did look at me in the showers and ask if I would grow the same colour around my willy as on my head. This seemed to cause amusement, as much for my answer as anything else, because I didn't know! Well why would I, aged twelve nothing had shown yet and nobody tells you these things do they. So I began paying a lot of attention to this, I most certainly wasn't going to ask anyone if they knew the answer like a parent, no way. I think the boys at school were looking now and again to see. I guess I must have been around thirteen when something came through and yep, it was the same colour as the hair on my head and at one point the same lad noticed this. He must have been paying a lot of attention to me in the school PE shower that's all I will say, because it wasn't much to notice even in a mirror but this other kid did and felt happy to announce it loudly. I actually went home and grabbed my old man's Wilkinson Sword packet of blades and took one out a packet as it was and attempted to lightly scrape that slight bit of hair off. Not a great idea, I cut my finger doing that and gave myself a red rash I think. I hoped the old man wouldn't notice I'd used the blade and put it back in the packet but he did notice and I said I'd used it for some airfix modelling I did in those days. I had my excuse ready if he asked. I did get the hair off though with a lot of effort and a steady hand and no cuts, just using the basic blade and no handle or anything. My introduction to shaving was not exactly traditional and self learnt the hard way. The things twelve year old do at times eh.

This irritating kid noticed what I'd done and that made it even worse than leaving it. I took a few further hits in the school showers over time as things came along until this kid finally shut up and the joke wore thin and he didn't get the reactions he wanted anymore. I ended up loving the way I looked, everyone else looked boring to me and it's nice to be different in a good way. I told him that, and as I was a nice size I told him ginger boys were bigger boys. I had no idea if it was true but it shut the sods up, they believed me I think, and they couldn't run off to the internet to find out if what I was saying had any basis in fact.

So yes YT, us ginger lads like Harry and others really do get it like that. There's an even bigger fascination with ginger pubic hair than what's on the crown of your head. Being ginger gave them permission to talk about me like that in ways none of them would have done to anyone else with regular coloured more common hair there which might have made them sound weird.

I'll wager a bet right now that at least half of ginger haired boys got at least one comment when teenagers at school in the showers about what they looked like there. I let it get to me briefly but not for long. But if you were a ginger kid at school and going in to share the showers with your classmates after PE you were going to be checked out and likely zoned in on for it by someone. Would it happen nowadays? Do kids change that much, nope. It probably would still.

None of my own kids ended up ginger so history didn't repeat with two sons and a daughter.

I've even had it in the workplace in a number of jobs over the years from people who really should know better. I've heard all the nicknames under the sun, Red Top, Copper Top, Carrot Top, Gingerman/Boy, Goldielocks, Penny, Duracell and the one that stuck at my big school ended up being Rustyhead. In my twenties I shaved my head for charity entirely bald and I felt great not hearing any comments, baldness, even self inflicted at a young age was more accepted than being ginger. I kept the bald look for two years, people kept asking why my hair wasn;t growing back at a time when it wasn't popular to do that and have no hair. I was told it might grow back a bit different after two years but when I started to let it grow again it came back just as blazing ginger as before and comments came back with it, even from total strangers in shops I've overheard before now, nice and horrible comments. They think you can't hear if they whisper behind you. I even heard a three year old in a pushchair tell her mummy one day to look at that man with the funny hair, turned around and she was pointing up at me. What can you do but laugh at that though. The learn very early.

This week 38 years ago I switched schools, ending at one and starting another immediately after half term. It was a big move from one end of the country to the other, south to north. The schools were superficially similar in many ways but vastly different in other ways.

Coming from a school that did not do any shirtless PE lessons and sitting in a new school changing room, getting a shirt out and putting it on but seeing everyone around me taking off their school shirts and suddenly noticing none of them were putting anything back on for PE and it dawning on me that it was going to be a shirtless PE lesson and I would have to do the same as them was one of the most stomach churning moments of my young life at that point, I couldn't believe it and then the boy next to me said they always did it like that. Nerves about going shirtless may be irrational in many ways but the feelings they gave me with a sudden unexpected realisation I was facing it were quite intense, and took a while to subside. My teacher noticed I was not used to it and was quite good about it though, but I wasn't allowed to put the top I came to school with on. I'd put it on in error before looking around at all the others without one and was told to take it off immediately, I could not wear it.

If anyone else wants to talk with me about these issues I will be happy to converse privately with thoughts and opinion. I left my email once before (in 2022) and had a nice chat with someone called Ben, so if you're still reading this Ben, hi!

Hi Carrot Top and Danny C,

Kids will literally zero in on any detail that makes one of their peers stand out, won't they? Personally I have always liked ginger hair.

I hear that Harry's autobiography, Spare, hasn't been selling so well. Perhaps he should write a sequel titled Ginge, in which he documents all the ways that being ginger have negatively impacted his life. I'm sure the prefects at Eton used to stand around him in a circle in the showers and point at his groin and laugh, the cruelty of Eton prefects has always been legendary.

andy. someone here has already reported someone to their real work place. that 1 stopped posting after. you remember? you shocked that people use fake names?

Ash or Samuel, which is it? You posted both of these comments under different names didn't you with the same questioning style. Why are these questions so important exactly? Good luck getting any answers, not!



Comment by: Samuel on 1st February 2025 at 18:36
Danny, do you remember precisely what they commented or asked that sounded sexual? You stated it was unlikely that nobody overheard it, but did nobody see them tugging you? Did they ever do it to anybody else? How old were you when this happened?

Do you remember your immediate reaction to that physical touch? Did you swat their hand away or retaliate in any way physically or verbally? Did they revel in the boundary they had just crossed or did they seem surprised by their ability to have taken it that far? Did you think about complaining to your teacher/parents about it?

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Comment by: Ash on 18th February 2025 at 20:43
Susan F, you said leotards were discontinued because it was unpopular with the girls when they were around boys.
What did the girls wear instead at that point?
Were the boys who asked to wear shirts allowed to do so?

Jane, you said "having boys around us was a distraction for us girls in PE". How did the other girls react to the boys' predicament?
You also said "Our own gym PE kit was horrible clingy black leotards until we got a bit older." So your PE kit changed at a certain point, what was it changed to?
Did the boys' PE kit also change at that point? Were they allowed to wear shirts then?
For clarity, could you specify the ages of the pupils?

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Awaiting Alan's incoming attack on PE teacher Neal Wilkinson here. Set the clock ticking......5,4,3,2,1, go!

Now attacking the possibility of kids doing judo in school too. The mind boggles at that objection. Mark and Charles have the right idea.

I'm disappointed with your attitude to judo in school Alan and agree much more with Charles. I think it would be good to have some form of controlled aggression in that way for boys who liked doing that kind of thing. It might make them less likely to do it in more inappropriate places in break times for example and just take that kind of boisterous energy out of them safely. Done under proper guidance there should not be a problem. Actually I think I would have enjoyed the chance to pair up with one or two boys in my class who thought they were a bit hard and been able to have a go grabbing and throwing them. We might have found out in a controlled PE lesson in judo that these self proclaimed harder boys were not as hard as they thought they were and some of the quieter lads could give them a run for their money one on one on the gym floor facing off. So I agree it would be a very good idea to have judo as a PE option, in judo kit or normal PE kit.

Susan F, you said leotards were discontinued because it was unpopular with the girls when they were around boys.
What did the girls wear instead at that point?
Were the boys who asked to wear shirts allowed to do so?

Jane, you said "having boys around us was a distraction for us girls in PE". How did the other girls react to the boys' predicament?
You also said "Our own gym PE kit was horrible clingy black leotards until we got a bit older." So your PE kit changed at a certain point, what was it changed to?
Did the boys' PE kit also change at that point? Were they allowed to wear shirts then?
For clarity, could you specify the ages of the pupils?

I'm a teacher on half term holiday and have seen this today with great interest.

From a PE teacher’s perspective, there are clear signs that some students display when they forget their PE kit. So what strategies can help students to remember their PE essentials?

Sometimes they look very sheepish and are afraid of the impending consequence, sometimes they adopt a severe limp or other minor injury as they approach the changing rooms, and some have that look of horror when they open their bag and realise they’re missing the crucial items. No matter the school setting, one of the barriers that PE teachers face is pupils who haven’t got the right kit to take part in a lesson.

We ask pupils to highlight PE lessons on their timetable, and if possible, set a reminder on their phones – a very useful tool!

We also ask Y11 leavers to donate their washed PE kit back to the school to help build a stock. Storing spare kits in the changing rooms will allow PE staff to lend any missing items to a pupil with minimal fuss, therefore mostly eliminating kit issues, although we don't have as much as we would like, it's mostly shorts. This does not negate the need for pupils to turn up with the expected kit however and a word with them if they do not.

When we have a full class in perfect kit, we comment on how impressed we are, and link it to a reward about doing something they all really like, this attitude raises the profile of bringing kit, and also encourages peer reinforcement.

We have kit sanctions. Ultimately, there will be pupils who are going to forget their kit and you will have to decide how best to react. PE kit expectations should be specifically mentioned in your whole school behaviour policy to ensure that it remains high profile with pupils and parents.

However, it is important to allow PE staff the opportunity to consider their response to pupils in their classes who have come unprepared and offer leniency where appropriate initially for a first time problem. For example, if a pupil forgets their kit but has a genuine barrier caused by something out of their control, is a detention the appropriate response? Sometimes yes, other times no. If a younger pupil has forgotten their kit for the first time and is upset, would a stronger relationship be built by offering the chance of redemption by borrowing a kit rather than detention be more suitable? We give a one time grace allowance to everyone per school year on this.

Boys who are not present in exact PE kit face sanctions however. That sanction is that the pupil will spend his lesson doing PE in a bare chest. Everything I've said here is available and known by everyone, parents, teachers and pupils alike. If only sanctions were fully effective but they are not, we sanction every day over something.

Where the PE kit is concerned, boys are expected to understand they will sometimes be required to remove their PE kit and play with a bare chest in some normal non sanctioned circumstances, this includes team games, aka "skins vs shirts", a long held school PE tradition maintained and popular to this day.

We expect all pupils to shower properly after PE as effective mandatory requirement set by school. There are rarely exemptions for this, other than on a needs must medical basis with provided doctors note strongly preferred. Showering is communal in nature and taken as one would expect, completely undressed with nothing on. However privacy is respected and teachers are not "looking in" watching directly unless problems arise. We have strict rules and a code of conduct about behaviour not just in PE but within the changing room as well.

We make sure that everyone knows what is expected of them at all points in the lesson from arrival to departure and they are expected to do things without a need to be told excessively, like getting changed, having the right PE kit, bringing a towel, taking a shower, getting dressed etc, and to know what they are doing on the day they are doing it and to turn up promptly on time and not be late.

We don't expect everyone to be a super athlete, we just ask for commitment to effort and full attendance.

I grew up in the 1970s and 1980s and have many memories similar to previous contributors here but feel things have moved on considerably. I am CRB checked to within an inch of my life and so is everyone else. Nobody checked my PE teachers like I am checked and have been rechecked.

Thanks, Neal - 18/2/25.

Mark – I’ve just been talking to one of my nephews about this as I vaguely remembered he once mentioned joining a judo club at school, and you are correct. He was at secondary school in the 80’s and says he joined the after-school judo club run by one of the teachers. He said the outfits worn in judo are necessary for some of the holds and throws which rely on gripping the jacket, especially the lapels and sleeves, and occasionally the belt or trousers, to gain leverage for a throw or force your opponent off balance or to where you want them. The teacher sold outfits to those who found they really liked the sport and wanted to take it seriously and progress, but advised such purchases not be made for at least the first half-term of taking part to avoid wasting parents’ money if they lost interest or found they didn’t actually like being thrown around. He says he and his mates did it for over a year only wearing their PE shorts although it did limit the moves possible against you, so if he was fighting someone with the proper outfit on, then he had a definite advantage, and loved doing it like that. So yes Mark – you are correct – the full outfit is not absolutely necessary for a limited form of the sport.

Not all guys are uncomfortable going shirtless.
It depends on how you feel about your body. Being skinny, overweight, out of shape, having bad back-ne, scars and/or cuts can make you self-conscious of your torso/bare chest on show.

Especially in secondary/comprehensive school, I saw many guys in school that couldn't care less about going shirtless. Right after P.E. when we were going back to change rooms, a group of guys would always take their P.E shirts off, yell "LET'S GOOOOOO" and run back to the change room. It makes you feel free and super confident!

We had real confident and real unconfident guys in the showers too in secondary school. It was great to just strip naked and walk confidently with a purpose to shower caring nothing for who was around you. They were free to look at me wherever they wanted, I didn't mind. On the other hand there were boys who shuffled in hands over their groins as if we didn't know what they were hiding. Such a shame to be like that.

I have ran a couple times with my shirt off and wow that's empowering. I am a skinny guy and not hyper-muscular or anything but who cares. If you want the thing off, take it off. I think many unconfident boys and men have a secret wish they could do that.

I encourage all males of any weight and amount of torso marks (I had a few acne marks at 15) to take your shirt off in public every now and then!

I had lots of mandated shirtless PE, starting in middle school and following through later on to secondary school. I think there is a fair case to be made for this approach. When at uni I was on a running team and we ran regularly to keep in shape without any tops on, voluntarily. I only remember one who seemed to always wear a top when the rest of us took ours off.

Really liking all the recent posts by Jeffrey, Danny, Greg, Carrot Top, Jane, Terry and Charles.

Judo at school, yes I think I'd have liked the chance to do that, or at least give it a go. I don't think wearing the white robes or whatever they call the judo wear would be essential in a regular gym PE lesson though. Normal PE kit would suffice surely, Carrot Top said he did it just shorts. I've always wondered why judo has such weird attire like a big bath robe. It doesn't seem very practical does it, when you consider that many of our PE teachers insisted on such minimal boys PE kit and some people say they couldn't even wear a t-shirt incase it got caught on something or someone.

I've seen the video before Terry and I think others should do and make their own judgement up on that. If someone can explain why that's age restricted with a sign in because of anything inappropriate when the purpose was to show it to a bunch of ten year olds at the time I'm all ears, where's the logic going there. Children's shows for schoolchildren forty years ago cannot now be shown to...school children. HAs anyone else seen it?

Carrot Top - A couple of my male cousins, brothers, now in their fifties, are both striking ginger red heads with pale skin and freckly faces. I have never had any discussion with them or mentioned their hair colour even when we were children and met up. Next time I meet them I will have to ask the question if they had to deal with anything similar to what you did at school, or for that matter as adults.

But it's not just ginger hair that attracts attention. Blond long haired boys do too, because I did a lot for my hair. Almost white blond as a toddler, it was thick and brightly blond and long and shaggy in my early school years, although still neat looking. As I got older I slowly got it shorter and it went darker blond over a long period of time until the point when I left school at 18 and it was quite short with a side parting and only just passable as dark blond by that point. Blond boys seemed to get noticed more and I remember many times getting picked out, even in PE for things based on my hair. Usually it was positive and complementary though. I was always quite happy with my hair colour and at school age found it weird how so many people used to mention it, or even my mother's friends too, or my grandparents every time I visited. My ex-marine grandad always used to like a shorter cut and would be pleased if I showed up visiting with a new fresh shorter cut, especially by the time I was 16.

Terry, thanks for saving me the bother of answering that question from Pete. I still find that thing quite amazing to contemplate. Until you start losing control of it you don't realise just how important personal privacy can be. Obviously school class photos are not personal, more public, so there can be no complaints if they find their way into the wider world, in uniform, in PE kit, barechested sport or whatever. I accept that.

Comment by Charles 17th February 2025 at 12.45



Sorry Charles, I can't agree with that for two reasons - one, some of the more aggressive lads will be given a legitimate excuse to be even more aggressive, and just imagine if they hold a grudge against one of their opponents, and two, it would have been very difficult for lads like me in school days (see my post February 1st). Wrestling usually has very strict referees like boxing, whether amateur or professional. If it was a free for all, there could be some very serious injuries (for which the school would in law be held responsible)

Carrot Top on 16th February: Your idea of having Judo as part of PE is an interesting idea. You are absolutely right in saying some boys enjoy competing by throwing each other around and it would probably appeal to some of the less well-behaved boys and keep them engaged. It would also have been far more exciting and interesting than the endless, boring circuit-training we often had to do – in a class of about 30, everyone could have had a different opponent or training partner just about every week of the school year! Of course, the problem is that the cost of providing all those judo outfits (or putting that cost onto parents, especially back in our day) would be prohibitive, so it occurred to me that doing Wrestling as part of PE would be a more practical alternative like I believe they do in the USA and Canada. I think schools (again, especially back in our day) could have got away with not having a specially trained teacher – we could certainly have taught each other moves and holds, and experimented with different ways of escaping them! And, crucially, no special kit would have been needed – just our normal PE shorts. There could have been inter-form, inter-house and inter-school competitions like schools had for boxing in the 50’s and early 60’s but a bit less violent! Thoughts anyone?

Comment by: Pete on 15th February 2025 at 22:52
'Does anyone know what exactly was being referenced in the previous comment regards Redditch and a TV programme about school there forty years ago? I live in Alvechurch just a couple of miles up the A441 from there. Which school was this and what was the programme exactly?'




I can answer this Pete, maybe you went to this school or know someone who did?

It was a programme for children from sometime around about 1980 or so, part of the daytime school broadcasting of the time. It was called Good Health and went out on ITV, the exact edition is called Fit & Healthy. There was a male PE teacher presenting and narrating in it at a school called Lodge Farm Middle. It showed boys and girls doing mixed PE, where the boys were shirtless and the girls in leotards, much like Jane has already described earlier this very evening infact at her own school. Towards the end of it all the boys, at least a dozen, where seen back in the changing room taking off their PE kits and walking into the showers from behind, filmed actually in the showers and then directly at them all as they came out again, full on to camera, naked, without any discretion for modesty given to any of them. It was a middle school, maybe at the time they thought that made it more acceptable to do that to those in that school.

You obviously missed it but there was quite a discussion about it on here a long time ago that I remember, mostly about how amazing and intrusive it seemed even in those days and on the consent issue.

Notice Yours Truly they didn't dare go anywhere near the girls changing room to make their points, only the boys, and followed them right into the showers too! A brilliant double standard example for you I'm sure you'll agree.

It's easy to find on You Tube but you need to log in to a You Tube account to view some in that series including this one. It looks like a repeat transmission date here, there are suggestions it went out in 1980 originally or even as early as 1974 maybe. To me it looked about 1980 or so the way they looked. The very end credit is cut off so you can't see the date stamp.

ITV Schools - Good Health - Fit & Healthy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRRw-k7cGJs&list=PLv1UpvxmZIp0ZOOyeGcqnj7ELr3U-tkT8&index=1

This guy called Nigel wrote under it in the comments the following;

"Wow! That shower session was certainly unexpected! Probably didn’t think anything of it at the time and none of the lads seemed to be the slightest bit bothered they were naked. I doubt very much this practice would happen in schools now, however, if you’ve been playing football, rugby or doing running/athletics you’re going to be needing a shower to get cleaned up and refreshed. I’ve been led to believe some schools have individual showers now, but with hindsight the communal shower is more efficient despite the embarrassment some kids would obviously have. It was certainly a shock to me at the age of twelve when I did it for the first time! Totally unprepared!"

Someone else replies to him with;

"I found communal showers quite uncomfortable too. I would have been much more uncomfortable, though, if there had been a TV crew in the showers filming us, and we'd been broadcast naked on national TV."

Then someone else mentions how they played silly comedy style music over the whole thing to almost make fun of them and someone else said their class burst out laughing at that point. That lot didn't even get to secondary school before that hit them.

Greg and Dan I know eactly what the pair of you mean.

It rather seem like I went to a school quite like yours Dan. I wish I'd kept a meticulous diary, oh the tales I would be able to tell, many long forgotten, but I remember more than enough still. Reading others lets my own memories flow back too.

I got on with nearly all my PE teachers at school and they got on with me, but that didn't stop me thinking one or two were quite demented!

Take the time I forgot football boots to school. My feet were a size seven but the PE teacher got a spare pair from lost property that were a couple of sizes too small for me and expected me to put them on a use them. He made me struggle to get my feet in them and by the end of PE I was in agony I could barely walk never mind run and my feet were blistered and scuffed raw but I was just told to stop moaning and shut up.

One teacher liked getting boys in headlocks and throwing us to the ground if there was any messing around. I did judo out of school unconnected to the school and was talking about it to him one day and he decided I should give a demonstration on the gym floor showing what I'd learnt against him. He was much bigger than me though so that was unfair in itself. How he thought I was going to chuck him about is anyone's guess, it felt weird as I wasn't in my usual judo white gear, just my PE shorts, no shirt, PE teacher in his joggy trousers, zip top and trainers, I was barefoot which judo was anyway. I was unable to really prove anything I'd learnt at judo as he proceeded to use the time to throw me all over the place quite badly and take the p*ss out of me in front of the rest of the guys in class which I think was the plan. I should have kept my mouth shut about judo. An absolute bloody nutter. This was all done on a hard floor without mats. It's funny how a couple of years later when I was the same size as him and a lot more competent at the judo I'd practiced that he didn't ask for a rematch or want one. I suggested it and he wasn't interested by the time I was closing on sixteen and had gained a few coloured belts.

I don't know why judo wasn't ever part of school PE. Some boys liked throwing each other around during breaks outside.

I could handle myself but I did get it bad at school for being shiny ginger with ginger eyebrows. You really don't want to know what I had to put up with in the school showers because of the colour of what grew lower down when it started appearing. I never understood the ginger fascination others had.

I used to feel sorry for boys in PE when I saw them all without tops on.

They would put girls in with the boys gym when I was at my senior school in Bristol where I began in the late seventies, there from 1977 through until 1983. This happened in our younger two or three years there, once a week.

I was what seemed like a rare girl in my class who actually liked PE, not many seemed to.

When I first went into PE with boys at my secondary school in the late 70's I couldn't believe it - they were all standing there and none of them was dressed like I thought they would be, they were all without shirts on, each and every one of them with totally bare tops. I felt so embarrassed to be amongst so many boys I knew like that, I didn't know where to look but was transfixed all the same. I'd never seen boys without shirts on before very close, I'd never even been swimming and they looked like they should be going swimming to me. I remember how I used to feel sorry for them because none of them ever wore tops in PE with us, they always arrived down at PE exactly the same with bare bodies and some boys didn't look confident like that I could tell easily as young as I was then.

Sometimes we had their male PE teacher, other times they had our female one.

I preferred when the girls did PE by ourselves because I think having boys around us was a distraction for us girls in PE and I know some of those boys looked uncomfortable when we were just waiting ready to do PE standing about. Our school gym was so cold sometimes it must have been unheated all year round. Our own gym PE kit was horrible clingy black leotards until we got a bit older.

Does anyone know what exactly was being referenced in the previous comment regards Redditch and a TV programme about school there forty years ago? I live in Alvechurch just a couple of miles up the A441 from there. Which school was this and what was the programme exactly?

Greg I thought that was a really nice and thoughtfully written post you wrote there, well worth responding to.

I can tell you exactly how I came by this place. It was 5 years ago when a girl I was in school with placed a barechested photo of me with my similarly looking classmates from sports day at our secondary in the early 80s on her personal facebook account much to my surprise. Although not on facebook myself I was tipped off and took a look and was able to see the photo and even my name written with many others, and even see a lot of the comments, mainly women actually, about us and what we looked like. A number of men also piped in on the level of shirtless goings on at our school during their time as well, I think one even called himself a "victim" of it. I had the photo myself but stuck away and hadn't looked or thought about any of this kind of thing in years, so this all rekindled what I can only assume were memories I'd buried quite deep. Once unleashed I found myself thinking quite a lot about schooldays, treatment, what went on and just about everything with a strong focus on PE in particular, and drama as I've mentioned numerous times also. Drama is also a very powerful memory for me like this in ways it may not be for others.

My initial reaction to seeing my shirtless teenage body at school being stuck online on someone's social media, even with others, was not being thrilled at it and wishing they hadn't without my permission. But after a short while I saw no real harm in it and was more relaxed. But if that was my reaction to a mere class barechested photograph I can only wonder what any of the boys who went to the middle school in Redditch just over 40 years ago would now feel if they saw themselves online nowadays being filmed stark naked washing in the showers and coming and going full frontal from the showers after PE on that schools TV programme that was placed on here previously some time ago.

So having seen old school PE photo's turn up online I began just wondering how common or unusual my own school might have been compared to others and what the thoughts of people my age might now be looking back and stumbled over this history site in the process, discovering a number of people almost immediatley with identical viewpoints and I gained a couple of personal responses too. If honest I thought I'd stick a comment or two up and forget about the whole thing.

Over the years I'd had a couple of chances to go to school reunions and ignored them, not really interested, but subsequently have been to two over the past three years now. The most recent last November I printed out some of my early comments on here and handed them to both a PE teacher and a drama teacher of mine, with information about this site and even my email address. It would be hilarious if one of them suddenly wrote up on here too. Haven't noticed anything yet! I was promised an email response from a teacher with some old school stuff but he hasn't done so yet, maybe he will, maybe not, people say things to be polite.

Further to what you've said Greg, I found that when I began writing about some of my school experiences on here, and also privately with a couple of email contacts, I seemed to begin reliving those days all over again in quite a stark and immediate way, and as I wrote about things the memories just kept flooding back like a dam burst at me ever more, as did the exact sensations I felt at the time too, and I had a daily diary to aid me as well, every single day throughout my secondary school I wrote something down about life. I did this from age 12 to my 40's infact. Even people who think they've got a fantastic memory like me can open the pages of old diaries and re-discover things long forgotten or you don't ever even remember, but as they are in pen and ink on paper in your own handwriting they clearly happened as said. I wrote a fair amount at the end of each day laying on the bed. Sometimes when I had bad days I really didn't feel I wanted to do that but somehow found the discipline to do so every night. There were many great days too may I add.

Quite interestingly as I'm writing this I pulled out 1985 and this date 40 years ago and I have a school PE reference for Friday 15th February 1985. The ground was icy with old snow pack iced around school a hazard to walk on. We had PE in the sports hall that morning. We had to walk across from our changing room outside across an open courtyard area to get there. Our gym connected directly by corridor to the changing rooms but the sports hall did not. We had no trainers for that type of PE, just our leather shoes but because they were black soled we were not allowed them on the sports hall light coloured floor, so we legged it across barefoot on pack ice, no tops of course, just black shorts on. I mention everyone rubbing their cold feet in the sports hall only for us to be told to get running between the two far walls back and forth until told to stop - the warm up!

Every winter I was at secondary school from 1981 unti 1987 there seemed to be a decent severe snowfall period early in the year without fail. Proper snow and long lasting ice, and this was in the south of the country, I'm in Buckinghamshire.

I found Jeffrey's comments interesting and this point about not talking about certain things. Greg when I began at secondary the first time my mother knew I'd come back from a school day with a PE lesson the first thing she asked me was did I have a shower and the follow up was did my teacher come in with us! Not becuase she would have been mad at that, just that she was curious. She would not have been mad if he had. I would have been even if he had kept his shorts on. How times have changed on that so fast. I never ever told her of my first shower experience that I've relayed on here previous. I was very reluctant for a very long time to even tell my parents the extent to which we did barechested PE at school as I found it an embarrassing thing to admit to being forced into. I know it kind of sounds silly but this is a 12 year old's head here I'm relating as.

My school life and my home life after the age of 12 were so different. If my mum or dad had ever seen me at home without my shirt on after that age they would have been in deep shock I think. I think I last regularly did things like that when I was 9 before clamming right up as I got older and more aware and sensitive. I just didn't want my parents to know what school was dishing out. I took ages to finally speak of our barechested cross country runs to them for instance. They had no real reaction to it.

Of course you get used to it all, you cannot fail to, no matter your feelings when doing something a lot. It took me a number of months until I finally stopped the endless fretting about PE lessons, going shirtless so much and showering. Funnily enough I probably accepted the showers faster then never ending shirtless PE, work that one out? Having finally settled into it, I was hit with the public sports day and that re-ignited the whole thing with rocket boosters when told no shirts allowed for boys even on public event sports day afternoon.

So the upshot here Greg is that writing brings it all back very strongly almost in real time to me, the sights, the sounds, the smells even, just about everything in amazing detail. I suppose I've kind of bared my soul a little bit here like Alan did the other day, so forgive me a little indulgence and a long winded post.

Before I end, I'll leave it with this. None of my teachers, either in PE or drama or any other subjects, remember an unconfident boy at all. I was a grade A for effort PE pupil at school with good reports on most things except football. I managed to hide my discomfort remarkably well after a shaky start and effectively fool most of those teachers, as I suspect many others did.

Comment by: Jeffrey on 14th February 2025 at 15:28




Firstly Jeffrey I would like to say how sorry I am for your loss. A contemporary of mine died at the start of that horrible pandemic and it always seems an even worse shock when somebody fairly young succumbs to it. You will never get over something like that.

As regards your question, I think most lads would not discuss things that go on at school - in many cases because they realise that there is not much parents can do much to change things, and they don't want cause a fuss or cause worry. Also some parents (and I am not saying you were one such) would never dream of questioning authority, be it somebody important like a doctor or policeman, or a teacher.

In my view from even the past few days postings with comments about punishments overseen or encouraged by P.E. teachers, many of them are bullies and somewhat unbalanced - just because you can do a thing doesn't mean to say you should. It shows how protected they felt being able to do such things in full view of the public.

Speaking for myself, as the world has got so much more accommodating (at least in Britain) so more touchy-feely, so much more understanding and friendly, and a realisation that everyone is an individual, I was shocked when I first come on here a few years ago to see things that were taken as normal back in my day are still going on - I had the impression that even the educational world had moved on. Clearly it hasn't and now many pupils have to endure being ordered about till they are 18.

It would be interesting to know how Gen Z, who need and get safe spaces and mus'nt be upset, cope with school today. I would like it if some of them would come on here and tell us.

Terry, thank you for your kind words on 30th January
Jeffrey, so sorry for your sad news on 14th February

Below is a link to an unusual boys’ race event from long ago. It shows a short film that records a boys’ 3 mile walking race which took place in Aberystwyth in 1922. An ‘exercise from the past’ contrast, to all the routine shirtless school gym and games memories.

I have always found it fascinating to look through old films and photographs, with Documentary eventually becoming my profession of work. It was how I found this site, (I often wonder how such a variety of posters find this site) and long before finding myself contributing to discussions here, which happened subsequently, mainly because I was always a sporty kid at school. But, I found that when rekindling memories from those times and then writing about them, somehow your innermost feelings can come flooding back about who you really were, and how you felt, about your experiences at that young age.

I sometimes find that these same feelings can connect up again when I study some footage or still photographs from the past. We’re reminded that we all have our own time, which is equally valid whenever or wherever this might have been. We’re, all of us, able to do no more than to try to accommodate our world and social conditions and expectations we find ourselves within during our young days, and all these first conscious experiences have to be dealt with during the early years of our own childhood.

I do realise as I watch this valuable documentary footage, that all the people captured here will no longer be with us. But I find this just adds a poignancy, serving as an important reminder that all anyone ever has, is that same 24 hours of each day, whenever it was lived. L. P. Hartley did once write that the past is a foreign country, but I believe it’s equally important to remember that during that very same past, every individual’s day to day human consciousness was much the same as it is for us in our present time.

This old film records a boys’ walking race from long ago, with what appears to be a staggered start based on age groups, and with no girls taking place. No shirtless lads here, but the race did take place on Boxing Day! No sports clothes would be readily available to them at that time, and certainly no sporting trainers of any sort to help young feet on that 3 mile quickly paced trek over hard cobbles. I expect they wore their only pair of probably ill fitting shoes or hard boots, which probably left their feet a little sore following the completion of their race. Shoes would have been an expensive commodity and still out of reach for some struggling families during those years, with children still to be seen without shoes in many old films of that same time. I wonder if most had enjoyed the usual Christmas meal to sustain them the day before the race? Possibly not all, and some boys certainly do look tired at the end of it.

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-boys-walking-races-1922-online

To draw a couple of points together, on the subject of outside barechested PE at a less than appropriate time of year and also the subject of women teachers.

I've got a diary entry written on Monday 28th November 1983 which mentions a PE lesson I had that morning first thing outside. I was 14 at the time. It was a football lesson in murky weather. I noted that our PE teacher had become annoyed that we were not putting much effort into the football game, not surprising as I hated the game and many of my friends did too, it was never my idea of fun first thing on Monday morning. So he stopped the match we were playing and gathered us around and told us all to immediatley take our shirts off and leave them in the goal mouth on the ground and to immediatley start running the school field perimeter instead, barechested. I don't even need a diary to remember this, it's easy to recall. I remember the anger this was done with and some of the protests about the cold. It was basically a case of get running fast and you'll warm up quicker. When we had done that and returned to the goalmouth after what must have been 15 minutes of lapping the field we got told to lay on the ground and do some push ups. He also made some boys do this in a filthy goalmouth in a satuared area. This was clearly some kind of a shirtless punishment to make us also feel cold and move ourselves, but most PE was barechested anyway so the effect in terms of simply being shirtless was minimal at our school. I wrote the temperature in my diary that day as about 10 celsius but this was early morning not even 10am so was probably colder than it ended up later in the day. So our "punishment" dished out for lack of effort during football was to be seen and made cold, barechested, dirty and rather knackered, watched over by a very warm looking, fully sports dressed teacher who remained quite inactive himself throughout.

On the women teachers thing, I'm reminded of my switch from my male drama teacher after a couple of years to a rather boring and uncharismatic middle aged woman who took me and didn't look like a drama teacher at all. I expected things to change with her. My male drama teacher had made us spend half his lessons barechested, he was also a relief PE teacher too. But when I began with this woman, so boring I cannot even remember her name without checking the report slips tucked away, I thought lessons would be quite different under her but we soon got a surprise when quite quickly she was at it the same as our previous male teacher and telling boys we had to remove shirts and ties in drama and sit about doing stuff shirtless just like before. My previous teacher was the head of drama and I strongly suspect he may have encouraged her to do this thinking back now, rather than it being her own decision, but she certainly did it with just as much relish. It may have been a situation like the lady mentioned who had a strike and spoke with the PE teacher who advised her to instruct boys to remove shirts for control purposes and added discipline. Maybe my lady drama teacher was told the same thing.

As a quite well behaved boy at school who didn't get into trouble for anything much, all I can think in my own case is that being barechested very reluctantly against my will just made me a little bit more subdued than I might otherwise have been, especially in drama class with our full form present both genders.