Burnley Grammar School

Steve.

Going back ten years to when my own son was in school his was one of those casual places that allowed pupils to make many of their own decisions rather than be constantly told. In our case his school had shower facilities and they were allowed to use them on a purely voluntary basis, but as he told me, nobody did. What was interesting to me was he said that although nobody volunteered to shower after PE there were a few who wanted to do so but were afraid to do so incase it made them look strange in front of everyone else, presumably because of taking all their clothes off by choice, so they didn't attempt to. To me that just makes the case for compulsion like I had. Had my boy's school been like that it would have raised no complaints from me at all.

That Ian Walker story makes me wonder if all did forget. If I'd been in that class and realised he'd been left in the cupboard I just know I'd have enjoyed the spectacle of him being left there for a laugh so it makes me wonder if others had that same mischievous intent, even more so if you didn't like either the one in the cupboard or the teacher.

I think your whole take on the school, the shower and general feelings about 'nasty men' out there very refreshing Marion. I hope most people think like you do but it's hard to tell nowadays when offended minorities shout loudest and longest over the quiet majority of us out here.

So on this school showers thing, when I started at my upper senior school, a regular pleasant enough comprehensive 52 years ago now, the boys always had to take a proper shower together after every PE lesson I can remember following an initial grace period of voluntary use as new boys. So I do remember when I started we had this grace period where it was voluntary for ages, although I don't think the teacher told us this as such that I recall now. All that happened was we'd come back to change and the shower was on for us and some boys used it and some didn't and nobody argued about it. I used it. The boys that didn't were not judged by anyone else for not doing so and the teachers didn't care. It was like this for many many weeks until something just flicked and there became a zero tolerance to not showering and those boys who had happily been skipping showering suddenly had to start doing it or else. I remember how this rather changed the atmosphere around the changing room at the time which had been calm and relaxed and then became a bit more tense with more assertiveness and obvious control being given. I think the way we had been going during this grace period was actually more amenable to everyone concerned. So I support the use of school showering at the close of PE but found voluntary worked best and in that situation I was always prepared to use what was available to me.

I'm reminded of a boy in my class who got put in an outside PE store cupboard to cool down after causing trouble in a lesson I was in when we were playing football in the early 80's. The PE teacher actually locked him in it. It was used like a sin bin. Everyone then forgot he'd been put there and school finished, PE was last lesson, and we went home. He's been stuck in this cupboard at about 2.30pm not long after the lesson began and was finally let out at 6pm, more than two hours after school ended when someone from home contacted the school worried sick about his no show.

Our whole class was treated as guilty as the teacher in not remembering and also had to explain why nobody had noticed his regular day clothes sitting untouched in the changing room and getting left behind. It was a good point but nobody could explain it. The PE teacher got one hell of a disciplinary and at the end of the school year left.

Marion's comment on 20th September here is one of the best comments I've read in a while.

Comment by: Mark on 20th September 2023 at 11:15


You have hit the nail on the head there, Mark. It wasn't just the somewhat questionable "interest" certainly our Mr. R showed in some of us, it was the aggressive and bullying manner he barked out his orders. I suppose this was part of the 'control' M.O. he employed, to suppress any questioning of his pathetic authority, but like you many years after I left I can still hear his voice.

I wish I shared Marion's faith in the innocuous nature of (some) P.E. teachers. As I have said earlier this week you would hope bad behaviour ended years ago when younger men and women went into the profession, but still the bad apples are ending up in court in the 2020s, charged with offences of the most appalling nature.

Marion I totally agree with your closing comment " I do not agree with people who live in terror of a potential abusive adult around every corner, you just cannot live live like that."

It is because of this culture that people are reluctant to volunteer to work with any groups especially children or the vulnerable.

Like a few other people have posted to be able to use a shower was was a novelty where bathrooms were often a rare thing. As for the undressing. I got used to this when camping as a Scout when about 6 boys would share a tent and have to get undressed for bed and dressed again in the morning.
I do not know what is included in P E lessons nowadays but I certainly enjoyed most the opportunity to climb ropes and use the wall bars. Is this still included or has it fell foul of the Health and safety gurus. I know that pupils have to be protected but making a risk assessment
for such an activity would be a headache.

Thankyou for explaining the mix up Drew.

As an oldie myself at school in the 1960s we girls had school mistresses who were the equal of many men I think. But where showering is concerned, I did this in those days with the usual feelings anyone would imagine at certain stages, don't we all, but do not have a problem with the current generation being asked the same as us if they are, such as a grandson somewhat unexpectedly confronted with a school, Willingdon, asking him to get himself showered with PE. I think in this day and age there are a huge amount of safeguards now in place, more than ever, and although a shower is a shower and it is what it is, where you are being asked to remove all your clothing briefly, I feel school is now safer than it ever has been. I think if you do feel embarrassed by such things then its just another obstacle to try and overcome in life. I do not agree with people who live in terror of a potential abusive adult around every corner, you just cannot live live like that.

Marion,
Apologies - I meant to put your name as the first word of my post, as it was in response to your post, but inadvertently typed it in the name section in error!!

I want to make it quite clear that I am not a gymnast in any way whatsoever. But I was able to hold myself upside down on top of the horse without being held by a teacher when I was at school and nobody else in class could do it apart from me. My arms were not especially big and strong and I was very slim build. My gym class looked just like the boys above, no shirts were worn. Could anyone else do the horse handstand without any aid?

Our family home in in the mid 50s was very cramped and although there was a notional bathroom it did not have a bath and there was definitely no shower at hand. Just a large square white sink and toilet with a long chain to a high up cistern to pull. The walls were not even decorated other than white paint on the plaster and that was it. A child or small adult could just about sit crossed legged in the sink and call it a bath of sorts. I was able to do this until I was about 12 years old but then became too big later on. We had one of those silver iron tubs you could sit in but rarely used it.

Going to grammar school in 1955 felt like I was being introduced to luxury. A shower. A nice big shower with lots of space. That felt so special. I didn't obviously have it to myself but with 20 or 30 other boys but that didn't matter, it still felt special when I was able to do this. Other boys came from posher homes with bigger bathrooms with a bath.

I was able to use the school shower at least twice a week, sometimes three, we had two or three PE lessons each week, it varied over time. So I have a highly positive view of showers in school PE from those days long ago.

To be clear, I would just like to state that I am not the same Marion who placed the comment here at 11.11am today, whether this is a coincidence or somebody wishing to mimic me which seems possible. Thankyou.

40 or 50 years ago most teachers probably thought they were untouchable, that's probably the only explanation for some of the actions they took.

Going back to first experiences and my first memory of the school showers, or at least one of the earliest if not the very first was how aggressive a couple of our PE teachers often were about the whole issue and making sure we did it how they wanted, and of course the watching over us. That stays with me to this day and I left school in 1976.

It's a long time since I was at school, but yes I suppose it was a little embarrassing the first time we had to shower together after PE.
But as George says, we soon got used to it.

Actually showering at all was a bit of a novelty back then. Like most houses at the time, ours only had a bath rather than a shower. The only other time we came across a shower was at the local swimming pool, but there you rinsed yourself off while still wearing your swimming trunks (or costume for the girls and women)..

Kevin: I know the excuse about öne rotten apple in every barrel" but THREE in the SAME barrel.?. To quote a notorious groomer of the past , Oscar Wilde, ´one might be regarded as a misfortune, both looks like carelessness'but THREE for Gods sake?. At the very least the current head should resign in shame - and the gravamen is, the older lads are kept at school and treated as children, the bigger the danger. When you know what went on 40 or 50 years ago, you can only hope with police checks and the British ´lessons will be learned" mantra, paedophile teachers would be a thing of the past. It is a terrible shock to know things are as bad.

Not sure it's helpful to keep putting up those kind of newspaper articles Alan. I think we all know there are rotten apples in this sector of education.

What those people who behave like this in schools seem to forget is that all those very young pupils who they treat as powerless and having to do as they are told will not remain like that forever and will grow into adults, leave school and retain the memories of what was happening to them and in many cases then speak out if they've been asked to do something they shouldn't. How can a teacher get away with forcing naked swimming on pupils and locking them in the pool area to do so and think he is ever getting away with that in the long term. I would have gone right home and told my parents that same night.

Marion.

Most boys would be a bit conscious or embarrassed first time showering. I remember my first time being confronted by many of my friends and trying hard not to look at their willies but kind of wanting to as well. But you get over it quite fast and next time was already quite different once that first time was out the way.

When I look back on my school days I think introducing kids to communal nudity is probably quite a healthy thing to do.

https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/23785141.third-name-given-royal-liberty-school-romford-abuse-case/

Secondary schools and their equivalents for that age group are obliged in law to maintain in full working order washing and showering facilities to be used. Whether they choose to then use them is not set down in law.

(ex-governor at two schools, primary & secondary 1985 to 2006)

Embarrassed, weird but okay.

That was an interesting reaction, the final word doesn't sit easily with the first two.

He sounds mature enough to understand what he's being asked to do and needs to do.

On balance I think I'm more against schools nowadays that simply refuse to let them shower even if they wanted to.

I wrote on here last Monday about my grandson who started at Willingdon School at the start of this month and how he and his family were unaware of that school's PE rules including being told on Friday ten days ago that he had to bring a towel last Monday for PE.

I see some people have asked a question and would like to know some more. I can let you know that the PE class he was in was made to shower properly after PE last Monday. He described it to me as embarrassing, a bit weird but okay. I'm sure he will get used to it quite quickly. I think it was a typical reaction to doing that for the first time.

Becky
with regards to what the girls wore in the final years at primary school as far as I know it was just vest tops.

Mike, how lovely to find that. No, I'm sure I've never seen that back in the day. I wasn't on the school rugby team, it wasn't my thing, much preferring all round athletics and I was on a team for that for a while. A little clip of the school gym there at Alderlea, yes, that's just how I remember it most times from '57 to '62, that's how we did it. Always climbing up something aiming for the high roof, with rope or gymside frames, there was always emphasis on upper body strength with arms and shoulders.

Ivan,
I think mum was at secondary school when she had to wear the regulation navy blue knickers. I don't know what she wore for PE at primary school.

Were your PE arrangements the same right through primary school?
The reason I ask is because some of my classmates had started to wear bras rather than vests before we left primary school.

I hadn't heard of Paul Henry for decades so I looked him up to see if he was still alive and kicking and what he might look like nowadays and then stumbled upon him as a subject on This Is Your Life in the mid 80's. I must say he doesn't look the particularly athletic type but he was also a keen rugby player at school and there is mention of his school sport at your school Dominic, I wonder if your have ever seen this. They do indeed show the boys in the gym shirtless too and picture of the rugby team, perhaps you are in it Dominic?. Quite a good find if I do say so myself.

https://youtu.be/7DCvZ8SzRLI?feature=shared&t=328

Becky,
I remember when I was at primary school 1957 to 1961 that girls wore the regulation navy blue knickers, because for P.E. they had to take of their dresses or skirts (presumably for safety and practical reasons) and do P.E. in vest top and knickers. Us boys just removed our shirts and because in those days boys wore grey shorts for school. all year round, we then did P.E. in vest top and shorts. Presumably it was not though necessary for boys to remove their shorts.

I was at Alderlea Boys School in Birmingham in the late 1950's and in my class at the time was the actor Paul Henry, best known for his role as Benny in Crossroads many years ago. Many boys had a good record of sporting prowess at this school at that time and I remember Paul as very athletic and capable in the school gym at the time where we never failed to be driven hard. That might surprise people who just see his character on TV and Paul looked a bit overweight by then. We also used to excel at athletics too and running both short track and field and cross country was always pushed hard too. The school gym was completely barechested at all times which was considered the way to give young boys added body confidence with themselves and around others.

In response to Ivan,
When I was at High School, our PE kit specified white socks. The boys wore blue football socks, which the school sold with the school initials included in them, although plain blue football socks were OK too.

Of course our uniform didn't specify the colour or style of our underwear, although my mum told me they had to wear regulation navy-blue knickers, both for PE and under their ordinary classroom uniform

Mark, in response to your comment "They will be dictating that to the exact colour of boys socks and the precise length of girls skirts won't they."
Some schools do. When my son was at high school, it was stipulated black socks. for P E we had to purchase particular socks from the school which had 2 hoops of colour at the top signifying the "house" he was in. Furthermore there was a regulation skirt for girls both normal uniform and P E.
Will it come to a point where schools dictate colour and style of underwear to be worn?

Bernard I don't think they've done anything unreasonable as far as I myself am concerned. I was aghast at the suggestion that if I did have an objection, which I did not, that it would likely be overruled in favour of the PE teacher quite possibly.

Howard - I'm a bit puzzled at why you are so aghast! The kit list is what the pupils are expected to turn up with but does not, of course, mean that they will all wear all of it for every lesson. It is not advisory - it is what they should bring with them - they could not be split into shirts and skins if they don't have the shirts in the first place. Schools need to have some freedom to do things as they see fit without individual parents wanting to veto odd bits here and there. Nothing you said suggests to me that they have done anything wrong or unreasonable.