Burnley Grammar School

I've just seen the answer you gave to Greg here Jeffrey and it spiked me onto the keyboard.

I left school in the early 70s. I have actually sat in my living room within the past five years and had a grandchild of mine actually accuse me of exaggerating when I told her how boys at my school used to have to strip naked and shower with each other without freedom of choice. There are actually youngsters out there right now who think even that is something of a myth if they go to schools that no longer do such things and think because they have not ever been asked to do them or seen it being done anywhere then it simply didn't happen.

Greg.

I would not argue with your findings on the pictures you wrote about. Fake imagery is the curse of our modern age isn't it. I agree with the sources you mention and quite a number of the pictures lacking authenticity, some more so than others.

I think over the past quarter century and certainly since the 20th became the 21st, the internet has enabled many things, some wholesome, others not so, but those quiet voices that did not have an easy outlet to tell their story suddenly discovered the possibility to finally address their earlier lives and gain some traction with an audience. The historical comments here can be added to that, men and a few women in some cases actually unburdening themselves of their past, at school in PE lessons in the case of this little corner of the internet.

Regular everyday people were mostly quiet, or seemed to be mostly quiet only because their options were strictly limited to perhaps chatting among friends and neighbours or family and that's where it stayed. There was no easy national or world wide audience unless you were able to get published the old fashioned way and stuck in a book store or create something the press might pick up on and run with.

Now the problem is providing proof, and in almost all the genuine cases there is none aside from word of mouth because no photography was present, quite rightly, such as in my case, and as you've said, doubts arise in this day and age even with photography.

When it comes to details and writing up these accounts of the past as we lived it, well those who enjoy writing often get drawn to places such as these and people with those kind of strengths and interests tend to be those who are good at the detail and have the memory to back it up. Has anybody here ever kept a journal for example.

I know there are disbelievers out there, what you are saying here comes with the territory and the points you make have been widely made elsewhere before and I don't feel offended you take this view, you are free to think critically and that is healthy.

In my own case I can hand on heart tell you with my hand on the bible as God is my witness say to you and anyone else that what I have written about from April 1952 is accurate and wholly truthful, the events and my thoughts and feelings about them and I can really say no more than that.

I sign off with a reminder of the phrase, the past is a foreign country.

I concur with Jim. I've been having access and functionality issues with this site all evening and wrote a post which I lost with a failure to submit. Googling up is taking ages to appear on two browsers and timing out. Mentioning this just incase it goes down again.

I planned to post this some time ago, but glad the site’s reappeared.

I thought it would be useful to bring some balance to the mostly accepting response to Jeffrey’s ’short essay’ of 24th. August.

As I work in documentary I thought I’d do a little checking using relevant sources and archives that I have access to. I was intrigued, so I also looked at a few sites to see what others had said. I also checked the link posted by William, 25th. August, which connected with this comments page: https://screeve.org/articles/naked-swimming/frank-answers-about-swimming-naked-commentary-part-i-discerning-the-truth/ There are photos here too, though all supporting images had obvious photoshop adjustment. Search for someone who uses the single name, ‘Billy’ who appears quite far down this long page, having done lots of work on this subject. Some will not want to agree with his findings, but he can back it all up.

It seems there’s never been any recorded evidence by any reputable source, media or photography, or any written programme, confirming that boys ever swam naked in the presence of female swimmers, female coaches, or before mixed family spectators, in the USA. It’s known that boys routinely swam without suits in these pools, with no one ever understanding why this rule existed for males in the USA. But, it was said to be behind closed doors, with no females permitted. Girls swam separately, wearing suits, and at different times. It does seem, for whatever reason, that some people would like to publicise a 40s-70s USA society as being completely tolerant and easy going regarding everyone being able to view mixed age male nudity during these swimming events. Many would like it to be thought of as acceptable family entertainment, and that most of 40s-70s USA public thought that too. Well, where's the documentary evidence of this? There’s no record, on any format, that it ever happened…not until the internet anyway.

I believe there was a one exception, which was so unusual that the press did get onto it. I think it was the late 40s when some small boys aged, 5 to 6, swamin a beginners competition. They asked if they could compete without suits, as they'd probably not worn suits before. It was permitted with a little amusement, and there’s no mention of it happening again. The written column called them tadpoles. There are articles mentioning mothers objecting that their sons had to swim naked, and similar regarding daughters who had also wanted to do so, both these during their single sex sessions. So, I do think the press might have caught an event regarding over 120 naked boys aged up to 14 performing for a Family night!

Jeffrey, I do think that the whole of your ‘short essay’ does read like a very well choreographed story of fiction. It’s visually descriptive, with memorable detail, and ending with a fitting conclusion with you winning your age group race, while being small for your age. I apologise for seeming to doubt your essay’s circumstantial truth; rather I’m challenging your chosen personal accuracy.

In response to Kieron.
I am like you, and agree with your comment and attitude
" I was on the side of just letting it all out there like a normal boy should and not care."
and although it does not suit everyone, I do not bother hiding behind a towel , just get changed.

On the subject of the recent techy issue on here, I've had further problems getting this site to click up and timing out similar to in the days before it vanished for a bit.

Ivan when I was swimming with the primary school in 1997 our teachers actually encouraged us to wear something under our actual swim shorts, most boys were wearing quite baggy ones at the time I know that. I didn't do this but a lot of boys seemed to and what was even more ridiculous was that afterwards one or two removed the swim trunks/shorts but kept their under garment/pants on and tried to towel dry them like their actual skin before putting the school trousers back on over damp pants. Our teacher at the time actually watched this happen and thought it was okay. I also remember from those swimming lessons in primary that half the class seemed terrified of showing even a few seconds of a willy and this insane towel around the waist and taking stuff on and off was going on. I was on the side of just letting it all out there like a normal boy should and not care.

A direct question for Nathan on here. Not posted before but have read up.

One imagines you will get some new boys intake in the days ahead.

Why don't you actually ask their opinion in your own way on the no shirts situation if an when you seek to apply it, and do the same for the showers you say your school still uses.

I can tell you if my own PE teachers had done this with me I feel it would have made an enormous difference to me to just ask and acknowledge the fear and anxieties I had when I began at secondary school in September 1980 but it was quite a matter of fact introduction to all these things and not a hint of any empathy from anyone in our PE lot that such things produce what I latterly agree is an irrational fear.

The quite frankly rather nasty way my PE teacher spoke to us and told us to strip off and shower has never left me on that first week. I felt genuinely scared that day and we all felt intimidated.

I have recently returned from holiday, and I am catching up after the technical problems.
I know that the topic of pants or no pants being worn under P E shorts has been widely debated, but to take this a step further whilst on my holiday in Menorca I noticed that the latest fashion/fad for young men in the swimming pool was that they were wearing underwear i.e. boxer shorts under their swim shorts. This became apparent as they get out of the pool the waistband of their boxers being exposed with the brand name.
I wonder why is this done because in my experience swim shorts have a netting inside which provides adequate support. I would have though that wearing boxer shorts under swim shorts would be very uncomfortable and cling to their skin.
Does any one know why this has become fashionable?

Great story that one Jon, I have had a similar experience at such a show even further back in the 1970's. Was your one Paul McKenna by any chance, before he was famous on TV. The reason I ask is that you mentioned Dunstable there and I happen to know he worked in that area about that time doing local radio.

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 5th September 2023 at 20:30


I think you said Nathan, that while the performance f those young boys was acceptable, the music used during their act was not, because I thought the music was irrelevant (such as it was). Perhaps if Soho strip clubs used Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance March No 1, the acts would be less tawdry. I dare say those stage struck lads quite enjoyed exhibiting themselves, not that it makes the performance less repulsive or squalid.

I grew up and went to school and university in the United Kingdom but have resided for the past 10 years in New Zealand's south island in a town called Invercargill.

Back home a number of years ago in around about 1988 I think it was, I went with a group of friends from work to a hypnotic show in Dunstable despite having no belief in it at all. I remember being tried out but finding I was not a good candidate to be placed under suggestive hypnotic thought. I knew that already. But we had a friend with us that day who did get chosen for one of the hypnotic trances, although he thought he couldn't be put under. We were then asked what things he would least be likely to do and among the answers given was he would not be likely to open his wallet and flash the cash or buy a round of drinks, and also he would never take his clothes off and definitely would never just casually take a top right off. As I didn't believe in hypnotic suggestion I thought he will never succeed in any of these things. But somehow he not only made our friend take most of his clothing off, his trousers and shirt, he made him crawl on the floor having done it and start treating the chair he'd been sitting on as if it was an attractive woman he wanted to date. We were all in our thirties at the time. When a sound was made he snapped out of it in an instant and I have never seen anybody in my entire life look so panicked and fumble around trying to dress again so fast. I remember thinking, what just happened here, because I still couldn't believe what I'd seen could possibly be for real. I just don't believe he was the kind of person who could have passed it off faking it though and he always insisted he never realised what he had done.

I'm afraid I cannot remember what I said now in the missing comment of mine, sorry. Back to school tomorrow, rotten luck with the timing of the weather.

Mike on the 4th.
Yes I was referring to Nathan's post where he discussed that film.
I always find his comments, as a contemporary PE teacher, interesting.

Goodness me what a piece of film that was. I think many of the parents might have got caught up in the moment and then walked away with a different view. Why would any of them wish to sexualise their boys like that, it's really rather terrible isn't it. I know kids seem like they grow up quicker nowadays but all the same, did those boys act like that without any adult encouragement at that age.

My boys, I have had 3, now all well into adults, could go to school and do P.E like that and I would always have been relaxed about them being asked to do so. The ones in the film could have been fully dressed doing the same movements and I would have been equally disapproving.

re Comment by: Rob on 4th September 2023 at 19:39

I recollect that post myself, but I just cannot remember the exact occasion we had to wear PE kit in drama, so I did not put in my contribution at that time. Amazingly I found a file on an old laptop with the answer:

Danny C on 22nd December 2020 at 03:17.

and the discussion around it.

Lance - thats the one.

Thanks for posting it!

This I think. Some misguided strip show for their parents. Beyond odd in my view.

https://youtu.be/bTW1iJlSEV0?feature=shared

TimH what is this gross video you are referring to?

Ian says - <Youth drama has also a lot of instances of lads wearing very little, playing parts like “Puck” and “Ariel”. (A lot of my friends were Drama/English teachers and I've seen the production photos).

I can vaguely remember my involvement in school drama (I'm no actor!). Our drama teacher believed that just before the final rehearsals in costume, we had to get used to not wearing our uniforms – so he had us strip to PE shorts. A bit disconcerting, but the worst thing was getting black feet from the dust on the stage.>




Ian, you were talking about drama classes there and it took me back to some comments I remembered from a couple of years ago right here from someone who put a few things on here about being forced into shirtless drama lessons as well as in PE. Does anyone remember who that was and when it was put on here, I'd like to read it again.

I think we have lost Nathan's post that you're referencing Tim have we not? What a shame, there were some decent comments in just those couple of days.

Welcome Back!

To follow-up Ian - I pretty much agree about the film on Youtube. It depicts a performance by a 'Circus School' in the Netherlands - they're long established with a pretty impressive website & Facebook page.
Its old footage - but interesting (there are other films from them on the www).
The boys' trunks are what I would call 'continental style' - they cover all that needs covering - I've worn similar in younger days. I must admit I didn't notice the collars & arms & leg 'decorations' - I wouldn't read too much into it - its a 'performance' & this is just decoration.

What I would say, and it follows on Ian's second comment - on this very warm day I've seen boys/youths enjoying the last days of summer holidays, kicking footballs about, and the lads playing footy were pretty much all stripped to their shorts - a long summer with their friends has given them confidence in themselves and in their bodies. I suspect the same might well apply to these two Dutch lads - a summer working towards a goal at the 'school' and gaining the confidence in themselves to go and do things like this in 'public.

And Thanks to Nathan for his comments on the link to that totally gross film that someone put up last week

There are quite a few missing comments that were posted 30th August to 1st September on here aren't there.

It's nice to see the glitch sorted out.

Does anybody know of or use any other historical sites that talk about PE experiences in the same way this one does?

Forgot to say =

The lads bring it off with such confidence. Anything less would have been disastrous.

Welcome back after the server failure. Congratulations! A weekend without PE reminiscences (mine very like Pete 28 August – I had six years of disciplinarian PE).

Circuses have always featured scantily clad young men, as well as women. I saw a young male contortionist on “Cirque du Soleil” on TV at the weekend, where a young male contortionist performed wearing only a pair of lycra tights that left nothing to the imagination,

Gary's link looked fairly tame – intially, at least. A definite role reversal, scantily clad males instead of females, dating back to the 80's or 90's I guess. The trunks covers all that's needed – I'd have worn them when younger. But – and maybe it is a big but – the lads are wearing collars and bands around their arms and legs. Hints of bondage gear?

Youth drama has also a lot of instances of lads wearing very little, playing parts like “Puck” and “Ariel”. (A lot of my friends were Drama/English teachers and I've seen the production photos).

I can vaguely remember my involvement in school drama (I'm no actor!). Our drama teacher believed that just before the final rehearsals in costume, we had to get used to not wearing our uniforms – so he had us strip to PE shorts. A bit disconcerting, but the worst thing was getting black feet from the dust on the stage.

The double standards where stark back in the day.
The female authority figures in my youth simply believed lads did not require any privacy. My brother was into many sports. What our American friends might refer to as a 'jock'.
He loved the attention.
I greatly resented having no choice in the matter.

Strange times indeed.
Just imagine of the roles were exchanged. Female costume designer I'd imagine?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RNo6UJTGT9M&list=PLRyPvjVvfxor9KsBkT1EpQTIKeFaS9QJ0&index=2&pp=iAQB

Jeffrey comes from what is known as "The Silent Generation", that's why people such as he refuse to revel in victimhood.

Think of the current Spanish Kiss furore. What started as just an over zealous excitable but inappropriate smacker on the lips in the heat of a happy moment has now tried to be turned into a sexual assault which she walked away with a smile on her face from by the way, instead of slapping him. It's a good sporting case of trying to create a dramatic victim mentality for something that just needed an apology and end of, lack of judgement and nothing more.

I hope none of the men on here who claim awkwardness in school revolving around the unremarkable act of having to take some barechested PE or a mandatory naked shower amongst their peers and watched by teachers don't conflate their legitimate awkwardness of such things with trauma or any kind of abuse. One or two appear to attempt it in my view.

That's very good to know Jeffrey.

I wonder if Alan feels he could learn from the example of your last line.

Jeffrey - I'm very pleased to hear that you do not feel you have anything to get over but I can see why Tanya thought the opposite could be the case. In your first account of the incident you make it sound quite traumatic and this is echoed in your reply to Tanya. I think you are probably of an age that you do not feel the need to be a victim - sadly these days there are far too many who want to feel sorry for themselves and blame their failure in life on some form of abuse, either real or imaginary, in their dim and distant past. Some counsellors seem to want their patients to relive their traumas over and over so that they cannot possibly get over them thus adding to the already increasing demands on mental health services.

Absorbing what you say here Jeffrey just makes me consider whether reading descriptions of such lessons and those 'family nights' is actually worse than the reality of doing it all in the end, like with so many things. At face value it reads quite extraordinary but many of us have an ability to overcome more than we realise even if we don't think so. When I think of the naked swimming there must have been boys who did so without a care in the world. Perhaps there are some comments out there from your generation who were told to do this and outright refused in a conscientious objector kind of way.