Burnley Grammar School

Hello, I have been following this forum for a while and I would like to react to what Alan said when he is telling Nathan Hind to “Think like a young lad and have some empathy for how they might feel.” I think this is supposed to mean that young lads do want to cover up and that they might feel uncomfortable with their shirts off. Supposedly, this implies that boys, for their own good, should be made to wear shirts in PE. I cannot disagree more strongly. When I was a young lad in the 80ies, all boys at my comprehensive school did PE in just black shorts, no socks, shoes or shirts. In my last year there, the school had a change of headmaster who felt it necessary to change the PE Kit to an all-white outfit of shorts, T-shirts, socks and trainers. I don’t know why this change of kit was ordered but I suppose the idea behind it was what is expressed by Alan. However, me and my friends did not at all appreciate this change, we did not want to be protected or pampered or made to feel ‘safe’. We pleaded with our PE teacher to be allowed to continue wearing the old kit. I could tell that he himself was unhappy with the new rules and he allowed us to participate in PE shirtless and barefoot. Only a minority of lads took to wearing the new full kit, which should tell you Alan what young lads really appreciate. This continued until one day the new headmaster turned up unannounced in our PE lesson and had a go at our PE teacher for not making us wear the new kit. That was the last PE lesson I was allowed to be shirtless even though, sometimes, I used to pretend to have forgotten my kit and was told by my PE teacher to just get a spare pair of shorts from his cupboard. I supposed now that he knew what I was up to.

In answer to Nathan Hind's message 17th August, if I may say so, Nathan, your original reply came over very much like a politician's (though to give you credit you didn't say "lessons will be learned" (because they never are). You feel what you are doing is completely right and you won't change. That to me is self-satisfaction writ large. I would suggest that nobody is forced to remove their shirt, if you need to distinguish between two teams use a red or blue sash. Just don't assume what you found acceptable at 11-17 applies to everyone. In the case of older pupils, they might have individual problems which they would be reluctant to discuss with you, or any of their teachers. Think like a young lad and have some empathy for how they might feel. Also, please remember that not every boy is sports mad, or especially competent at things you find easy. Everybody has different skills

I take your point Mike but let's face it, the two aren't remotely comparable in reality.

Great point you make there Trisha.

Just think about going back in a time machine all those years and telling your PE teacher the next time the England football team win the FIFA World Cup it won't actually be the men that do it but the women.

I just saw this you wrote from 7th August Alan,

'I was disappointed that Nathan said he would not change or reconsider some of his methods, even though he admitted that he was surprised by some of the goings on many of us have described. My feeling is that if you don't change and adapt, you will be part of the problem, not the solution.'


What would you like me to change on my return to school next month? Please explain.

Some girlfriends and I wanted to play football as long ago as 1985 at school but were banned from doing so even against each other or going near anything resembling a boys football. We weren't even asking to play alongside boys or anything like that. We had to play netball and I hated that. Now look,the girls are about to possibly win the football world cup this weekend, not the boys!

Until I was 12 the only people that had ever taken me as a boy for PE were female. Not a man in sight. That all changed at 12 years old as you would expect. But like Steven, I went through a whole year - 1975/76 - when for some reason the gym for boys, sometimes mixed with some girls, got taught by a woman we had.

Unlike the female PE teacher who was previously described as attractive, all the female PE teachers at my upper school were rather plain and matter of fact types, the head of girls PE had what was actually a boys haircut, I remember that about her. But she was nice enough.

As I said, the boys at school went a year with one of the girls female teachers and concurring with Steven, it was like they had to prove themselves in a boys class and compensate with being extra demanding. There was no easier ride just because we had a female taking a bunch of boys, quite the reverse.

I always thought of trampoline as a bit of a girls thing, and we had a sharp uptake in trampoline usage while we were under female instruction in PE. Also we did what I'd describe as a lot more aerobic type keep fit style PE standing on the spot moving and bending etc. There was a lot less of the team spirit we had and not a lot of climbing about. We still did basketball but stopped doing indoors softball and football. We were used to wearing trainers in gym normally but under female PE she made us do it barefooted like the girls did in their classes with her. She was very much the equal to the men in terms of shirtless gym lessons and operating the skins team instruction for basketball for instance and many other things. She entered the boys changing room frequently as we disrobed into and out of our kit and even as we showered although the shower was easy to walk to with a towel around the waist and then vanish out of sight until emerging so she knew we'd done so without directly compromising our modesty. But as I've seen written and said before, boys aren't allowed to be modest are they.

Yeah Miss Stevenson was a real looker too, and being the girls PE teacher she was also very used seeing lads in teams of all skins or vests vs skins. All the lads knew that when the order to strip off came she'd also jog down to the back of the gym and watch as we dropped our vests on the floor.

On the topic of female PE teachers, I recall Mrs Philips. She took us boys for a few weeks when our male teacher who would usually teach us was on sick leave. My memory of her is not at all a pleasant one. Somehow, she must have deemed it necessary to treat us boys extremely harshly. Our PE uniform for gym consisted of white shorts, no tops, socks or shoes. Officially, we were not supposed to wear underwear under our shorts but that was never checked upon apart from when Mrs Philips took over. She had us line up, stand to attention and pulled back not the back but the front of our shorts to check for briefs being worn.
The lessons she put us through were also physically extremely hard, consisting mainly of push-ups, sit-ups, work on the wall-bares, etc. She even made us do PE outdoors in the schoolyard without tops, something our usual teacher would never have done. She only seemed to shout at us and only addressed us as ‘boy’ in a very condescending manner. For some reason, she thought she had to be hard on us boys but the girls always described her as a very friendly and understanding teacher. She probably just hated males and took it out on us.

There was a time, notably so in large parts of the United States not so long ago, where a certain way of swimming (without trunks) was forced upon boys in the pool whether they liked it or not by the teachers of the time. Now for the same behaviour you'd be in jail, as shown by the article linked in the previous comment about the Romford teacher.

How stupid was that man though to think he would get away with that. People might not say much at the time when they are quite young but in the end things start getting talked about among people, this forum is a good example of a lot of older people who have not really said very much since their schooldays about their feelings and now feel able to do so long after the events that shaped them.

I think the whole point being made by Tanya was about feeling safer with a woman taking PE than the men considering you Alan have continued to tell of your lack of trust for male PE teachers, clearly based on your personal circumstances.

The pick up joint was a bit of an over sensitive reaction wasn't it. Wasn't that just suggesting you might feel more confident away from men maybe?

You say you went to an all boys school, so do you think you'd have been better off in a mixed gender environment, even sharing PE like that, or would you have been even worse having to do so if that meant for example having to go shirtless?

Someone else mentioned humour. There is nothing wrong with a little light humour even in a serious discussion, even if the points being made did get lost a little in this case maybe.

In answer to Tanya, 14th August. Strangely, Tanya, I never regarded going to an all boys school as a pick up joint, I hoped to learn things that would be useful to me in later life. Not an unreasonable wish, even in a dump like mine (happily demolished years ago).

I get the impression that you might be amused by some of the things myself and others have described. Unless you had personal experience, you wouldn't realize how such behaviour can stay with you years later. For example here is a story which appeared in my local newspaper only this week:

https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/23723361.royal-liberty-school-romford-faces-sexual-abuse-lawsuit/


How funny is THAT?

Those red blooded teenage old boys who took gym in loose fitting shorts without underwear really wouldn't be wanting a stand in female looker would they. Problems may arise.

Jason - just to make it clear I wasn't actually trying to come on to my PE teacher despite your description of my behaviour in front of her. I was just full of over confidence at that age and a bit of a show off at times. But the points I made yesterday did make it look a bit that way, oops. But she did pay a lot of interest in some of us, perhaps that's unsurprising as there wasn't much more than a dozen years between us I'd imagine and none of us had a top on, and I did rather love doing PE that way for gym.

How would you have fancied peacocking your skinny torso in gym for Simon's Miss Crampton at 14 in PE then Alan, :-) Maybe you would have trusted the young ladies more than the men to teach you.

It sounds like you were "peacocking" in front of the PE teacher there Simon.

Meaning - Peacocking is when a male uses ostentatious behavior to attract a female and to stand out from other competing males, with the intention to become more memorable and interesting.

At the secondary school that I attended between 1979 - 1983 there was a really fit and attractive youngish girls PE teacher who caught my eye as a teenage boy with his hormones going wild. I used to wish she was our teacher in the boys class instead of the typical looking and acting men we had to put up with.

School PE in the gym for boys in all years was bare chests and shorts, that was the default expected of us all, fine to me but was aware it didn't suit quite a few others.

Anyway I got my wish eventually as the usual male teacher who took us for PE most Mondays had to leave school not long after arriving because of some issue and we got the stunning Miss Crampton, no older than her late 20's at worst who knew how to wear a PE kit and turn heads and I think she knew it. She was easy going but also fairly strict with it. We didn't get any kind of easier ride with her than with the men whom took us. But I absolutely loved and got a big kick out of being able to do PE with my bare chest in her presence and remember trying to catch her eye a lot and make her look at me and she didn't disappoint, coming over as a bit flirty with one or two of us and quite hands on.

We ended up having the stunning Miss Crampton five or six more times after that and all I can say is that they were some of the best PE lessons I had in secondary school.

Comment by: Michael on 13th August 2023 at 20:29

That is a very generous way of looking at it, Michael, but the fact is that this harsh treatment went on right to the end of the 80s, where physical punishent was concerned, and even now it seems that games masters have the "right" to make boys obey their whims, some of them highly questionable.

I can remember just a few years ago, one whining leader of the N.U.T, whose name escapes me, was forever on radio and TV talking about being "at the chalkface" a comment which was insulting as it was crass, because clearly it is meant to remind us of "at the coalface". Were teachers so deluded that they dare to compare themselves to the brave men who went down coalmines, in flithy and hazardous conditions, to virtually keep the country going with power for homes and industry?. It is true a lot of people entered teaching, a job they were entirely unsuited for. I suppose the long holidays and the feeling of importance and omnicience that came with the job, overrode the knowledge tht they didn;t have the patience to do their job.

It might well be the case that teachers in the 1950s were suffering with PTSD, which is one of the reasons I firmly believe that every would-be teacher should be subject to a very stringent psychiatric assessment, prior to employment , even today, because even now far too many poor or bad teachers get through the net, and some are still appearing in courts, charged with disgusting offences.

I'm not one of the more critical voices on here when it comes to PE teachers themselves or PE in general but having read what Kris wrote it did make me stop and think and rather agree.

Loved the orange shorts story by the way. What a shame you weren't wearing bright orange underpants to school that day too, I'm sure I had some that colour as a kid. The comedy value that would have created would have been a beauty. What would he have done then!

It is well known that in the mid-late 1940s, and throughout the 1950s. there was a national shortage of teachers. To address this shortfall, accelerated training courses were offered, particularly to ex-services personnel.

Sadly, some of these people, through no fault of their own, were nevertheless unsuited to the demands of this kind of work. The effects of what we now refer to as PTSD, were little recognised in those days, and therefore not taken into consideration.

So, I don't think most 1960s/70s ex-services PE/Games teachers deliberately intended to be boorish or impatient.

Instead, I reckon some were so indoctrinated by their national service and (possibly) the effects of WW2 or Korean war experience, that they had difficulty in re-adapting themselves to the gentler ways of civilian life.

Greg2 wrote: "There does seem to be something about the position held by boys’ Gym teachers that gives them a feeling of immense power, so much so that they become comfortably drunk on it, believing they can do almost whatever they want. It’s something that doesn’t exist for teachers of other subjects. I wonder what this is? "

I agree with you,Greg - they take liberties no other sort of teacher would take. I suspect in many cases they are over-compensating - you do not have to be so "clever" academically (or at any rate that used to be the case) - you just had to be "sporty"., so they were making up for their preceived lack of intellectualism. I also think - in the case of the teacher we were saddled with - was the extreme macho behaviour was a screen to hide his homosexuality. I doubt very much he was the only example in the teaching profession, especially in all boys schools like mine. I know that remark might upset some people, so I would just say I don't think there is a problem with geography, English teachers - or any other subject, but I think allowing them to be gym teachers, when they have the possible temptation of older lads being seen by that teacher naked or nearly naked , and dictating what they can wear, or not, is totally wrong - it's like letting an alcoholic run a pub.

The entire second paragraph of your post today Greg is spot on isn't it, so right.

The power PE teachers held over us in school was actually immense wasn't it. You could be stripped naked on demand by them with zero appeal about it. Not even the police could do that without a good reason to adults, never mind actual children of school age. There were no safeguarding policies at the time against some of the excesses some indulged.

How good is it to see some more humorous postings coming along on here like the orange shorts from you Blaine.

If bright orange had an image problem in a 1972 school gym, well I think bright orange has an even bigger image problem nowadays doesn't it, when I think of that colour in 2023 I'm immediately thinking of Just Stop Oil right now, hi-viz jackets worn in broad daylight or going back a bit to those hostage videos. I don't think I've ever owned an orange item in my life, shorts or other, not even socks.

I did used to have some gaudy coloured undies myself so green pants Tim sounds about right! Everybody at school seemed to wear the same kind of Y-fronts years back in the 1970's that looked naff, but I'd have been fine with boxers/trunks if condemned to do PE in my underwear, good ones look like a neat pair of shorts anyway. When I stopped wearing mums British Home Stores bought multipack Y-fronts in my final school year I never went back to them and nothing would make me. I got used to buying my own underwear from about 15, yet there are some men long into adulthood with partners who continue to let women other than their mums buy their pants, why?

Comment by Blaine on 12th August.

That’s really awful behaviour Blaine, and the sort of liberty that I expect only a boys’ Gym teacher would confidently take. Surprised that your parents found it funny, as I expect mine would have been very annoyed. I doubt anyone would do this today as we now have a completely different social culture, so perhaps it’s just the cultural difference from another time that influenced your parents acceptance. I hope for your sake this was not a mixed class with girls, which I expect again would be unthinkable happening to them. I’ve spoken to my sister about her Gym lessons, as she was good at Gym and in the school team. She always liked her Girls’ School Gym teacher, saying she was kind!! I doubt girls’ Gym teachers would ever behave this way.

There does seem to be something about the position held by boys’ Gym teachers that gives them a feeling of immense power, so much so that they become comfortably drunk on it, believing they can do almost whatever they want. It’s something that doesn’t exist for teachers of other subjects. I wonder what this is? Though I think I know. It would be interesting to hear what others think this might be, and the reasons for it. I certainly can’t just be preparing boys for national service, as this ended long before many of the comments made here.

As far as I remember until mid 60's underwear was to misquote Henry ford any colour as long as it was white!!! And then string underwear came into fashion. whatever happened to that?

@Blaine ...

There was a time (pre-Adidas) when shorts were three colours only: white & black/navy blue. Orange would be very risque!

And green undies? Wow! (Although I was wearing them in the late 60s).

Happy Memories!

NEVER WEAR BRIGHT ORANGE SHORTS INTO A PE LESSON.

Why?

Our comprehensive school, 1972 onwards, had no set rules on kit, we brought our own tops and shorts to P.E and these were mostly blues, blacks, whites and a few somewhat brighter shades of various primary colours.

I got given what I regarded as a quite cool pair of vivid orange shorts for my summer birthday that looked perfect for bringing to school and wearing in P.E so I brought them in with me on the next available chance wanting to be a bit flash and happy to look distinctive from all the other traditional colours the boring lads wore.

The P.E teacher I had that day rarely took much notice as we changed for P.E and so he didn't notice me until I was down in the gym, when he noticed and took an immediate dislike to bright orange shorts. I was called over face to face and asked for an explanation of my colour choice and told it was not acceptable to him and to remove them. When I protested I had nothing else to wear he simply bent down and pulled my shorts down my legs and told me to step out of them. However I wasn't wearing any pants underneath and stood there hanging out (sniggers echoing around the gymnasium) - one of our teachers often insisted on no pants under shorts but this man didn't although some of us just did that anyway even with him. I was quickly told to pull them back up and go and get my pants on and return without the shorts and do PE in the pants. I think my pants were bright green on the day, he seemed okay with that on my return.

My folks found the whole thing hilarious when I told them. I always played safe in my colour choices after that.

You bet Paul. Very similar here.

PE showed up big differences between many of us who were either great at everything, good at something, or just useless. I used to think after PE under the showerheads with nothing on was the ultimate leveller for everybody after all that.

Reading Michael's story - and many others in the past, you have to wonder if PE teachers get extra training in crassness, rudeness and insensitivity, or if they take night classes in it.

Regarding Oance's post, it reminds me of a lad in our class who, due to some very bad condition not long after birth had a scar running from his chest down to his navel, and our Mr R could never resist drawing ttention to it. What is wrong with adults who feel it clever or necessary to behave in that manner?. I often hope these people later in their lives actually grow up rther than merely grow older.

I suspect if teachers tried these sort of tricks today that they would be prosecuted and dragged through the courts. I also suspect now that boys are bigger and less intimidated, that they might turn to the tables and use their fistsif they are bullied or humiliated. To me those sort of teachers belong in the 19t centuary rather than the 20th, nd I suspect some of the relics are still cluttering up the education system now we are in the 21st century.

Forty six years later and I can still remember the moment I walked out of the first PE lesson I took which ended in a group class communal shower when I was only twelve years old and the feeling not just of immense relief that I'd finally gone through that rite of passage but also a huge sense of achievement that I had come through it completely unscathed. That might seem like an OTT reaction but I was very bothered by such a thing so it was a good result for me. I don't think I'd be unique like that, others must have had a similar thought process.