Burnley Grammar School

Mike on 26th August 2022 at 19:13

Others have made up their minds, wrongly. There's no point in posting the answer and equally, if people want information disclosed, they should disclose their own first.

Don't you think?

Not doing is trolling.

Robert, Barney, Hugh and William have all placed great and readable comments on here just this week worthy of the site. I think most of us coming here with a grain of common sense can sieve out the bits of irrelevant noise now being made.

We have somebody refusing to answer a politely asked question about when they went to school. Yet can waste the effort lashing away instead. Says it all really.

David P on 26th August 2022 at 13:33

I've been pointing out the level of trolling for quite some time and posted a fine example of it earlier today. Alan must be getting desperate to be posting again.

You seem to have set yourself up as a judge about posts which question others and yet all you seem to have are opinions without foundation.

Strangely, like anyone else, I will answer questions which I choose to and am under NO obligation to answer things that are asked if I don't want to.

You clearly don't want to believe my posts and are not objective so I will leave it there, there's no further point in responding to you and I'll add you to the list of people I posted earlier, you have got to be leading a very boring and unproductive life to actually choose to be so objectionable.

Make sure you wear the cap. It certainly fits.

This site is now very clearly being trolled mercilessly by some very juvenile people and the kinds of petty minded nonsense being placed here sounds far removed from genuinely mature adults wishing to engage properly. It's now quite clear that most of these deliberately antagonistic comments trying to provoke others are likely eminating from a single source isn't it.

You have got to be leading a very boring and unproductive life to actually choose to be so objectionable. Just look at some of it. The dismal reply to a teacher of forty years standing was unjust and the follow up explanation beyond purile.

I also noticed that a question was asked about when people were at school and only one person has actually answered it, whereas one of the others has not done so but found the time instead to deny they left school just 7 years ago instead.

That person is not even hiding the fact he's trolling this history discussion now and I'd appeal to the person who is moderating these comments to cease publishing these posts that are clearly being placed to disrupt the course of the discussion form serious minded individuals.

Over the summer months there has been a lot of excellent input from a wide selection of people and I think some on here do not like that fact.

Barney on 24th August 2022 at 16:38

Thank you for your long and informative post, you are an interesting character.

Yes, I was in practice three years ago and was a GP in Twickenham. As you have said you play in South West London we may well have met. I did pre-play screening for seniors working with the RFU doc, Simon Kemp, so I might have screened you if you are in a 1st team or, (I hope not) had to pronounce you fit to return after significant injury?

Chris Wendle on 25th August 2022 at 18:35

Gordon on 25th August 2022 at 15:57

Alan on 25th August 2022 at 11:31

Well, well. All making the same spelling mistake even though Aidan has spelt his name in his posts and it's the most common form. A bit of a give away isn't it? Alan is making multiple posts again to try and control what's going on here and of course the theme of all these posts is similar, the 'Alan' agenda.

Ed on 25th August 2022 at 21:56

Wrong Andy but I'm delighted you had so much time to waste looking back over four years of posts. How sad. Perhaps you belong in the group above?

Comment by: Andy on 10th December 2018 at 00:27
I’m probably a bit younger than most people on here, having graduated from a boys only high school three years ago.


Only left school in 2015 according to this.

Gordon on 25th August 2022 at 15:57

I think before you post you should learn to spell.

Chris Wendle: In my case 1979 to 1986

Anyone else like me remember being in class with 3 or 4 people out of the 30 or so who would never behave, were often disruptive and affected things for the rest of the class who wanted to work hard and do well.

I'd like to know between what years Andy, Alan & Aiden went to their respective schools to get an idea of the era they represent.

....and make a plea to all for a lot less crotchety ping-pong back and forth please.

Alan on 25th August 2022 at 11:31

Your analogy comparing the rotations of a junior doctor who will probably spend about the first five years of his career doing this and often in a small group of hospitals with a school teacher is ridiculous.

Once a consultant or GP, a doctor will be stable for decades and both those things are now achievable in early 30s.

Alan on 25th August 2022 at 11:31

We aren't talking about doctors though are we? I doubt any doctor would claim to know the ins and outs of every hospital they worked in but they would develop in their specialty.

We are talking about a school teacher here so not the same thing at all and the claim is to know about the workings of schools on a grand scale.

As ever, your point is irrelevant.

You clearly didn't take my advice but then, I didn't expect you to.

By Aiden's definition in his 9am post today it's fair to say he's openly admitting, by his own rationale, that he's a person with quite obvious "limited intelligence".

Aiden - the way the NHS is set up, a doctor has to move from hospital to hospital from one RHA to another in the course of his career. That said, would you describe a doctor who had specialised in, say, cardiology, for over 40 years as having "limited experience"?.

Perhaps if you thought before reaching for your keyboard?

Alan on 25th August 2022 at 10:21

Pot, kettle, black.

Only last evening William wrote an intelligent and thoughtful piece, he hasn't posted for a long time and at the end of it he said:

"I have offered these comments in good faith to Giles Ames. In the past I've had a fair amount of hostile comment from Alan whose school was certainly different from mine. "

And there we see it, an intelligent post from a man with much to contribute, driven away in the past by Alan's behaviour and he's at it again with Aidan this morning. Alan is the man who cannot tolerate a view different to his own view and he will bully and belittle to drive away those who don't conform evidenced yet again in his post this morning to Aidan.

I think most here now see Alan for what he is and we remember his promises to withdraw, a promise he never keeps.

Alan on 25th August 2022 at 10:21

I posted facts as opposed to bluster and rhetoric, you post nothing of the kind but expect me to agree with your point of view. How very disordered.

Perhaps if you thought before reaching for your keyboard?

Aiden: That man has 42 years of experience working in secondary schools. Most of us have 12-14 years in school, and of those only 6 or 8 of them in secondary school. Clearly he has more experience than most of us, and he sounds totally sincere to me.

Why is it that when some people disagree with another point of view, they write it off as bogus?. We all have different experiences. I had 6 years of hell - I full accept that for others they had six years of happiness. "Them's the breaks" as Boris said just a few weeks ago, but for you to dismiss a 42 year career shows a new level of contempt, worse than much I have experienced on this delightful site..

Jim on 24th August 2022 at 23:09

There are currently 4190 secondary schools in the UK. If someone who had 42 years of teaching experience taught in a different one every year throughout their career they would have taught in 1% of them by the time the retired. What sort of level of experience would you call that? I would call it limited.

Of course moving every year was highly unlikely and as soon as you reduce the moves to maybe every five years the person would have had experience of 0.2% of schools. I would call that limited too.

In addition the poster posts a rumour about an older colleague - "It went all around the staff room at the time" about a "a hang 'em flog 'em type of character" which is about a very experienced teacher coming up to retirement when he was three years in and still wet behind the ears and it's the only argument he poses to add 'credibility' to his account in an attempt to come across with some sort of authority.

I'm merely quoting available facts and the posters own words which don't take me in at all and I don't find him remotely credible. Others must make up their own minds.

Perhaps if you thought before you reached to your keyboard?

I would say Mr. Coulson was a very fair teacher, who didn't make judgements on pupils because of their backgrounds, and most teachers were like that, and used corporal punishment as a last resort. There were, unfortunately, too many teachers like Mr Rodgers who preferred to cane first and ask questions later - and you only need one or two (we had two) Rodgers to make life a misery for pupils and, clearly, their teaching colleagues as well. In a career of 42 years, you can hardly call that "limited experience", and I am sure that there were many more Mr Coulson's than Rodgers, but people like Rodgers needed to be weeded out, and so few of them ever were. In the case that Mr. Coulson mentions, it seems that the fair minded teachers won the day over Mr Rodgers, but in some schools (like mine) they were allowed to get away with their antics, because other teachers wanted a quiet life and allowed them to get away with it.


Some people on here seem to think I am suggesting that there were a majority of "Rodgers", and I have never suggested that for a moment, but as this case proves, there were men (and I suppose women) like that, who really disliked and mistrusted children and they should never have even considered working with kids, let alone been considered suitable.

Demolishing somebody in the profession for 42 years with the barb of "limited experience".

Someone actually wrote that.

Robert Coulson - Teacher 1967-2009 on 24th August 2022 at 17:10

Your experience was different to that of others and yet from you limited experience you want to dismiss other things suggesting your knowledge is superior to that of others.

Interesting level of arrogance.

For the removal of any doubt I can tell you that there was nothing regular about the frequency of entries in the school punishment book at Litherland for a school of that type at that period in time. At the start of my career schools did have a record of whoever was given corporal punishment and what for but in my experience the frequency of such things as using slippers, belts, canes or any other implement dropped off very dramatically as the 1970's progressed from one end of that decade to the other.

As an example, one of the schools I worked at in the 1970's with a roll of around about 700-800 would have probably had no more than maybe 100 or so names over a year in a book, many of the names repeated. By 1980 use of the cane was almost non existent and if it had been used 5-10 times in the year I'd have found that quite considerable. Other methods like a so called slipper or training shoe were diminishing very fast by then too. It was used only for serious truancy, antisocial behaviour, drug taking, foul language, bullying and physical assault on another member of staff or pupil to cite some examples.

What is worth adding here is that the use of the instant quick clip around the ear or flick across the head was actually more regular for things like answering back or being out of lesson when you shouldn't be. Most pupils would never feel this and it was often the usual suspects again and again. It was not painful or meant to be but a firm signal to behave.

Litherland was a dramatic outlier quite obviously,. Things appear like they must have run rather rapidly out of control for some reason to lead to close on 2,000 punishments in just four terms on only 400 boys. Nobody should seek to explain it away and normalise those numbers, and I had been teaching a fair while by 1981 myself and know and remember the ropes.

One of my much older colleagues in the 1970's was a hang 'em flog 'em type of character who taught woodwork and metalwork. It went all around the staff room at the time about how Mr Rodgers near to retirement age nearly got his entire class of boys one afternoon a dose of corporal punishment, either cane or belt it would have been. He had lost his wallet and keys from his jacket pocket left on a chair. When he went to find them they were gone. He accused the class and demanded someone own up. When nobody did so he demanded of the deputy head and the headmaster that everyone should be physically punished to make the culprit own up. At one point he was in the staff room making a bit of a scene about it but the deputy head thought it best to leave things overnight and see if it turned up first and he reluctantly agreed. It was a good job he did.

On the way out going home in the car park I was nearby at my car and he approached his red mini close to mine and couldn't get in it. Looking through the window all his keys, car keys included were on the front passenger seat and his wallet was tucked next to the handbrake between the seats. By this time a small collection of colleagues was stood around. Had it not been for the cooler heads of the deputy head and head our Mr Rodgers would have managed to get his entire class of about 20 boys a severe physical collective punishment for something none of them could own up to. Probably what annoyyed me the most was his lack of contrition and his failure to be apologetic after the discovery, and maintaining we should not have been surprised he thought the boys had taken his personal effects. I think we might have been in some serious hot water if he'd had his way.

I was never keen on teachers I worked with who were very quick to think the worst of those they taught and often wrong.

Allan Gyford on 23rd August 2022 at 20:23

Thank you sir for your response to my post.

As I said, at school we always had emphasis on looking smart and well presented regardless of what we were doing so in a lab coat or gym shorts we had to be exemplary and it sounds as though your son’s school has a similar ethos. On our sports kit list in addition to a towel was also a requirement for clean underpants if wearing them for sport because you simply wouldn’t do sport and put the same ones back on. The result of that was that as recounted in past times, most lads went commando because somehow when packing kit a spare pair was often overlooked, I certainly did and once you had, what was to be bothered about? Something else that has come full circle.

My parents also set store by smart appearance at all times. These values are important wherever you go and whatever you do in life. If I had turned up to my university or job interview looking anything less than smart and well scrubbed, I’m sure it would have counted against me so in addition for instance, a smart haircut is essential, I currently have mine cut every two weeks, it is a thick mop and it needs it to look smart. One of my rugby mates is an HR manager and he says he always awards a mark for well polished shoes and I must admit, since he told me that, I pay even more attention to my shoes and my rugby boots.

The key, I think is looking smart and appropriate for whatever situation you are in so I obviously take care when going to work but equally I take different but equally exacting care when I meet my mates at the pub, go to rugby training – even if I am going to strip as soon as I get there or going to our family Sunday evening meal at my parent’s house, something my mother sees as of critical importance in making sure her brood are fit and well and if at home you would only miss at your peril. Meeting the objective of being presented well is the key, the means of doing it are of much less consequence so if school or the rugby club or the gym provides communal showers you use them, you need to be clean, anything else is an insult to the people you are with and you let yourself down.

What you say about grades for PE and marks for being well presented is interesting, I’m not aware that happened to me but you are correct, marks are an incentive to do the correct thing because all of this information will be scrutinised as you leave school and seek either a university place of to enter the world of work. I doubt any employer is interested in people who don’t take care of their appearance and also demonstrate hard work to date, some universities desperate to fill places might be more lax but places are ever harder to come by so you must do your all to present yourself well.

Team games and fitness are still key to PE. At school we had a choice of rugby or football in the autumn and spring terms with no coercion but obviously lads chose the one they were naturally better at so I chose rugby where I showed talent that I was helped to develop, other lads were better at other things and chose them. Cross country was compulsory for everyone, for almost anything you do, you need to run and anyway, it’s great for overall fitness, I run a couple of times each week with my neighbour who is in his mid 30s and he says I keep him fit but he’s a real challenge too and certainly keeps me moving.

In summer we had choices too, cricket, softball and athletics for example and all year round there was gym. The only thing we missed out on was swimming but I swam two evenings a week with my dad and brother which I enjoyed but the body that makes me a good rugby player isn’t so fast in the water.

I was always comfortable going to the pool with my dad and brother too, dad was at championship level in his younger days so he was a good task master in the water. Changing with them was quite normal. If I digress a moment, my dad is a Finn, sauna is part of his culture and so as long as I can remember we had a sauna at home which he still uses almost every day. When we visited my grandparents in Finland, who live in a small village between Helsinki and Tampere, my Grandma led my mother and sisters off to the village sauna almost every afternoon and after they got back my Grandad or ‘ukki’ as we call him (Finnish word) assembled the men and off we went, that might include my uncles and cousins too though on my dad’s side of the family, they all live in Finland. Finnish saunas at least public ones are never mixed. If you’ve never been to a Finnish sauna, they are hot and naked, no man takes in so much as a towel.

When I go to Finland these days and I’m off there for a few days on Saturday, that’s still how it is and I wouldn’t think of not joining ukki. Like grandparents everywhere, he is immensely proud of his grandchildren and having us there and talking us up and highlighting our achievements is important to him and now I’m an adult he buys me a beer on the way home too so what’s not to like? Sometimes you will find yourself sitting next to or taking a shower with another grandson and you can compare notes on who is being talked up the most.

Saunas you find in the UK are a cold joke in comparison and I wouldn’t waste my time at one. The sauna in the village where my grandparents live is probably a fifty seater and day by day it’s busy and an important social space. I remember dad offering to pay for the installation of a sauna in my grandparents house and ukki wouldn’t hear of it, where would they go to meet their friends and hear village news was the response. Fibre and 5G internet connectivity doesn’t compete with the sauna.

At home, my dad never pressured us to join him in the sauna but very often my brother and I did and even now when we have our family Sunday evening meal my dad has the sauna ready from half past five and most weeks, my brother and also my sister’s boyfriends join him. Presumably for the boyfriends the benefits they get from the sauna far outweigh the idea of sitting naked in a hot box with four other men because just as in Finland, there’s not so much as a towel present and the benches feel hot enough to sear the skin on your arse. Having been with them often enough, stripping naked, sitting in the sauna and showering, I get no sense of awkwardness, they are guys a little older than me aged twenty five and twenty seven. Sometimes we chat, sometimes we compare sports injuries from recent days, sometimes we sit in silence and it’s just a great way of de-stressing before Monday morning and I always sleep very soundly afterwards with no thought of the office tomorrow kicking in, it’s good for my health both physical and mental.

I wouldn’t say our PE teachers ran the ‘kingdoms’ you experienced. Now they have a fairly tight curriculum to follow and guidance on how to do it so there is no more room for deviation than there might be in maths of geography.

It sounds like your boy is lucky and is living in a very safe, stable and caring home, good for him. Not everyone is so lucky.

Hugh on 23rd August 2022 at 19:15

Thank you sir for your response to my post.

I think you are correct, the experience of rugby other than some of the rule changes that have taken place over the years have changed little from your day to mine or indeed for much longer and it will stay that way into the future, rugby has a life of its own.
It is a great game and while very physically demanding it’s also tremendous relaxation and a way of switching off from everything else that is going on. The camaraderie and teamwork required to succeed is second to none and it’s also a great leveller just like the communal showers we share afterwards. For instance, on my team there is me, the city guy and I’m not the only one, the HR manager I mentioned above, there are also three junior doctors so some ambitious professionals and there is also a man who works in a coffee shop and a binman, your success is only determined by your ability to play rugby and that is what teamwork and respect is based on. Among our group there is no awkwardness about anything and to touch again on the subject, I don’t know why we would want shower cubicles, the communal ones have a lot of chat obviously about the game but a whole host of other things to and cubicles would lose all that and we would gain nothing and that’s how I found post sport showers everywhere.

I do find myself wondering if we have met, let me have more of a think in the coming days, there is some bell ringing about a GP and team doc who was in the navy. May I ask sir, were you still in practice three years ago? I’m on holiday this week so plenty of time to do think.

William on 24th August 2022 at 11:24

I think you make many interesting points sir.

I haven’t yet found the post you refer to but I do agree with the point you make about other European countries being more relaxed about nudity is accurate. As I hope I’ve recounted above, Finland is extremely relaxed about same sex nudity but mixed would not be acceptable in a public place, the Scandinavian and other Nordic countries are similar. I was very surprised a few weeks ago on a business trip with a colleague to Germany to go to the hotel sauna. In the changing room was a sign saying the sauna was a ‘textile free’ area so we stripped and made our way in. I was then slightly surprised in spite of my Finland experience to find that the sauna was mixed sex and there were also naked women present. After a moment or two, it didn’t matter, we all sat and enjoyed the heat at a proper ‘Finnish’ temperature. Even in a mixed sex environment there was no sense of anything sexual about the experience.

I would also say that homosexual is not a word in my vocabulary. I don’t remember lads being teased about being gay or any other word to describe it at school and nor was there any wariness about it. I am of the view that who someone has sex with with does not influence their performance in the office, at a restaurant, in a pub (well maybe if they’ve drunk too much) on the rugby field, out for a run or in the gym and I certainly wouldn’t think for a moment that anyone was about to want to have sex with me in a communal shower and nothing remotely like it has ever happened. If a man or woman wants to admire my body no matter how clothed or unclothed it is, I think I should be pleased about that and not in any way intimidated. I certainly didn’t look at any of the women in the sauna in Berlin and think that I would like to have sex with her, they were there for a sauna, not to be any sort of sex object.

Andy, When I wrote the long piece I had not seen the comments from Barney and Allan Gysford, both of which are encouraging but show the danger of generalisation. I suppose Giles Ames has to generalise for his hypothesis.
I doubt whether things have come full circle. Too much has changed. But I do suspect that young towel dancers in their late teens/early 20s may abandon the practice as they mature and realise that the older men they see in the showers are benign, have no interest in them, and are just getting themselves clean. Certainly I've seen milennials aged about 30 behaving no differently from the older men.

William on 24th August 2022 at 11:24

Thank you for your thoughtful comment and you sum up the situation pretty well - though we do now have Barney posting about being far more relaxed regarding changing and showering.

Have things come full circle? I wonder.

for Giles Ames on 15th August.
I'm sorry to have been slow to comment but I look at this conversation less since it became ill-tempered. I thought your contribution really thought-provoking. I have not studied the subject but the differences between generations in their attitudes towards male non-sexual nudity are complex, as are the reasons why attitudes in different countries vary so much. Your spelling suggests that you might be American and by all accounts the changes in the US during the past 50 years have been more extreme than in Britain although the trend is the same.
In general I think your analysis of the "towel dance" is accurate. I have seen it in male changing rooms at gyms and swimming pools. As a baby boomer I have wondered why younger men appear so keen to hide behind the towel. For us it was so different, as many of the contributions on this website testify, but I'd like to add a couple of points based on my experience as a boy at an English single sex grammar school in the 1960s. The regime has been described many times: minimal clothing for gym followed by compulsory communal nude showers. At some schools swimming was nude. We got used to seeing each other so we knew what a normal penis looked like and had no recourse to pornography.
I agree with you that the towel dance is not caused by anxiety abut penis size, but that anxiety about sexual orientation is more significant. It was not like that for us. When we called a boy a poof it was a general term of mild abuse rather than an accusation of homosexuality. We must have had gay boys at school but we spent very little time trying to work out who they were because homosexuality was really not something we thought much about. The liberation of attitudes towards homosexuality in the past 50 years has made young men much more aware than we were of what it meant to be gay.
Not only was sexual orientation of little concern to us, but social attitudes towards single sex nudity were completely different. At school it was the norm. There was no right to bodily privacy. Protest would have been pointless either at school or home. I was shy aged 11 but my parents would have said that we were all boys together and had no reason to fret about being naked. To have made a fuss would have been regarded as "cissy", ie girlish. Newspapers at that time regularly had photographs of professional footballers in the team bath after a match. The photographs were not explicit but none of us imagined that the players were wearing swimming trunks. The 1963 film This Sporting Life had a team bath scene in which rugby players were naked. Young men today might regard it as gay but my generation would have thought it normal and realistic.
Most of us quickly got used to nudity at school, and from what I've seen in male changing rooms nothing much has changed for my generation. If we've nothing on we certainly don't think it's gay and don't spend much time worrying what youngsters think. Their lives must be very different from ours. I assume that most young men from an early age are not seen in the nude outside one-to-one relationships. No wonder they appear shy in the changing room, avoiding showers and spraying their sweaty bodies with deodorant, sometimes with their gym vests still on. Privacy has become more important than cleanliness.
Of course the other factor which has made such a difference in attitudes towards nudity is heightened awareness of the risk of sexual abuse and the introduction of measures to prevent it. The school regime I have described was full of potential for the abuser: compliant boys used to having nothing on, getting on with things and not protesting. But like the majority I was never abused. I benefited from the regime; it made me less shy and reasonably confident about my skinny body but some boys will have thought differently.
I wish I knew whether a keener awareness of sexual orientation plus measures in schools to prevent abuse have changed attitudes to non-sexual male nudity in other countries to the same degree as they have in the UK and the US. I suspect not. Most of Europe is more relaxed about nudity than Britain, but you have to spend time in the countries to appreciate just how ingrained their more down to earth attitude is.
I have offered these comments in good faith to Giles Ames. In the past I've had a fair amount of hostile comment from Alan whose school was certainly different from mine. I hope this time that he might accept that our views are different because our experiences were different and leave it at that.

Tom F on 23rd August 2022 at 21:11

You've been fooled by the hysteria. In a school of 400 boys, imagine a class size of 30 so all day every day twelve consecutive classes going on and perhaps the odd 40 at PE of one sort or another.

A lesson probably lasted about 45 minutes, at my school they did.

So in one of more than twelve lesson sessions going on during the day, a lad got the slipper. Putting it into a more realistic perspective, you can see it's nothing sensational at all and suggesting anything else was just part of the STOPP sensationalist narrative.

A few taps of the slipper or for that matter six strokes of the cane never did any lad any harm and probably a lot of good.

In summer 1974 when I left school I didn't immediately find a job I wanted so my uncle who worked in the meat industry pulled a few strings and got me a job in an abbatoir doing general dogsbody stuff. I lasted just one week. The stench of the place was horrific and it lingered on you. On day one I got shown to my locker and then to a nearby shower room where the foreman told me after 8 hours here you'll need one. I thought he was joking and confidently thought I'd be giving that a miss. I'd spent the day handling waste products and offcuts and he was right. At shift end the other six or seven men who were all much older than me took to the works shower room with some industrial looking soap and although nobody was being forced to do it, I did reek a bit even though I'd worn an overall so I felt I had no choice but to join them. It was probably one of the worst weeks of my life actually, being in a place like that and then finding myself starkers, a fresh faced school leaver with a gang of older men in an abbatoir works shower barely a couple of months since I'd last been with my friends in the school one. Five days of that and I was off without any notice after collecting my wage packet for the grand sum of I think it was around about £15. I found something much better within a fortnight and my uncle was very understanding. It also made me a lifelong veggie.

Allan Gyford just wrote;

"One interesting point about the school is that the grades they give in PE don't just take into account the effort and attainment from the lesson itself but also how good the attendance to the lesson is, how well turned out in the proper PE kit they are and a hygiene element. I'm not entirely certain what that latter part means but I did read of a school elsewhere that docked grades for those who didn't shower which is an interesting take on things."


I quite like the idea of doing this.

Infact tayloring grades like this seems clever and could be cleverer still. Call it a kind of eureka moment but what would be the best option in schools nowadays would be to make showers at school entirely voluntary so nobody can cry on about the terrible mandatory nature of the things, but also dock grades if you fail to shower fully after PE and show good hygiene. I think that is quite fair and reeasonable actually. But would it work, or would those who hate PE and hate showers not care about their grades anyway?

So if proper communal or cubicle naked showers in school were entirely voluntary but using them would get a better grade or report what do we think the uptake might be?

I'd have taken them if voluntary and linked to a grade or if it meant getting marked down if I didn't. But like most on here I never got the choice, in you went like it or loathe it.

Thanks for something thought provoking and different there.