Burnley Grammar School

Recent claims of naked swimming - compelled or choice? - for pupils as young as seven on here at schools in England so recent as the 1970s & 1980s just don't seem to fit well with me. That's all I'm saying.

Alex Farthing: You sound like a man after my own heart. One of the things that struck me at school, and later, was the bumptiousness of some teachers, who felt, even after you had left school, that they were still "above" you, like some important untouchable, royal figure talking to his butler.

About two years after I left school, I saw one of my old teachers on a railway station and he called me by my surname - I just gave him a look of contempt and gave him two fingers, then ignored him. To be fair, he was no worse, and even a bit better, than some of our other teachers, but yet another one who showed complete contempt and indifference to the boys he was teaching. Respect is a two way street - that is one lesson so few of them ever learned, at least back in the day. If fhey want respect they have to show respect.

Some of these people had far too high an opinion of their own importance - a bit like eldeerly politicisns, who, once they have been voted out, still are arrogant enough to think we are concerned about what they think.

How nice to read plenty new on here that isn't revolving about what got worn under lads gym shorts. That was stifling the conversation here quite clearly.

Perhaps the funniest thing I've read on here all year is Rachel on 26th March asking if boys with hairy chests were exempt from stripping off. Well I can answer that one for her and it's a clear "no". Not that I asked to be exempt, I was fine. I was one of those in the mid to late seventies who did a lot of my gym p.e bare topped and hit puberty very early on. On my 15th birthday I had no chest hair but by 16 there was a dark and noticeable sprouting across my upper chest and tummy that stood out different to most others. My birthday was early September making me one of the oldest in class. I rather liked it and my p.e teacher told me I'd been eating too many greens. People used to say eating them - "that'll put hairs on your chest". The p.e teacher in my final exam year used to take some of our p.e with his p.e vest completely off and he had no hair at all, so I think he was maybe a bit envious of this lad he had.

I can't think of any reason why having some hair on your chest should mean you have to keep it hidden. There's nothing wrong with doing p.e like that. I think it promotes a healthy physical attitude. You did as you were told in school in the seventies and no answering back. One lad in my class who was a bit funny over all that kind of thing simply had his vest pulled over his head and off one day and had to deal with it and he no hairs on his chest. Nowadays someone somewhere would likely accuse that teacher of something close to a physical assault, hurting his feelings or violating his human rights.

Hope that answers your question Rachel, although I think it's quite rare to see lads by 16 with noticeable chest hair like I had. It might seem weirder nowadays with male grooming all the thing whereas in the seventies all men seemed to have hairy chests and want them it seemed.

Graham - I was pressured to go to my school year reunion by my wife, as I wasn't greatly bothered. This was 2005, and I'd left in 1980. I didn't know what to expect, but one thing I did not anticipate was a couple of my old teachers hanging about as well as one or two from the class. It was a place where half the male staff used last names on boys only. Recognising my old metalwork-woodwork teacher Mr Underwood, I walked close by and before I got a chance to reintroduce myself thinking he'd not recall me he shouted out to me by surname only, twice. I was with my wife and a bit stunned. With my hello I jokingly said just his last name Underwood back at him like he had to me but he was having none of it and he said - Mister Underwood if you don't mind. It was like being naughty and regressing back into circa 1980. My wife was unamused by that and fumed sarcastically - You can call my husband Mister Farthing if you like, or just Alex I chipped in, my actual first name. The look on his face was priceless. The conversation was brief and we moved on to someone else rapidly. He never did call me Alex or Mister Farthing when we concluded. We laughed about it later at home as I never had a high opinion of this teacher but managed to come away thinking even less of him than at school. A shame there were none of my own PE teachers there that day as that could have had the potential for even more bother. I was an outright refusenik for some PE and preferred to take the consequences, sometimes a detention. The changing room was a grotty thing and the shower tiles had mould in corners. Use that, you've got to be kidding. After a while I just thought, not showering anymore here. None of their hollering at me had much effect. I just walked out nearly always and eventually they gave up on my strong headedness and I got away with things other boys could only dream of. Unfair I know but c'est la vie. A bit like Boris Johnson in some ways!

I hate acronyms especially when I'm presumed to know what they mean and then have to guess or look them up. I must have led a sheltered life. Haven't nearly all of us who showered with our PE teachers gazing on technically been a part of this cmnm thingy, although I didn't get much of a kick out of it.

One for Nicky, and I had not one but at least three PE teacher's very much like your one. I wasn't ginger, or too thin and had nothing too obvious to be picked up on but some of these guys used to be able to find more than enough to have a go at just for the sake of it. One in particular was absolutely impossible to please. You could never jump high enough, run fast enough or score enough to please him even if you broke the school record. With these guys it seemed like a twice weekly attempt to grind self worth right into the ground.

Oh dear Stuart, hate to say this but in a week when the jockstrap overkill has been confronted on here and agreed with by others, for you to come along and stick an obvious fetish based contact, which is what CMNM is, strikes me as somewhat extraordinary if you wish to be taken seriously.

You said to Tom 'it has nothing to do with my contribution to this site' but of course it does if you are using it for the purposes of this H.W forum. It affects perceptions here and especially when you made a mention of swimming with nothing on.

Nothing wrong with such a harmless thing at all by the way. Just plays into the hands of those here who call out this kind of thing.

It's good to see some more positive comments recently. I too had got rather bored with so much talk about jockstraps - a rather mysterious and unnecessary item as far as I can see.

I was never very good at p.e. but I enjoyed it and, as long as we tried hard the teachers were happy. Our kit was very spartan and this could be a little challenging outside in the winter but I wouldn't have changed anything. I always found p.e. to be a welcome change from our academic lessons which could be quite intense.

Tom F you are so right. Very revealing. Laura isn't wrong with the points she made on here is she and it helps make her case further. I'd never heard of that acronym until today.

Secondary school 1989-95.

At school I had thick ginger hair, very pale skin, freckles everywhere on my face, chest and shoulders and was quite tall thin and lanky with it, but I was also confident too thank God and quite able at team sports. I didn't mind being seen in the changing room with everything off and never understood why some lads got so wound up about all that if I didn't looking like I did. I had all the traits waiting to be ribbed about, but maybe my confidence saw to it that nobody said things to me. No one in my school year group did, not to my face anyway, none of my mates or anything. There is a big BUT though, and adult did, and it was one tool of a PE teacher of mine who used my physical appearance against me on a large number of occasions, about my thinness, freckled appearance and colour of my hair. One day when I was standing in the changing room with just a towel around my waist he came up and actually asked me why I had so many freckles on my chest. What an idiot! But I had a good answer back and said "ask my parents". The irony was that he was also slightly gingery too and seemed to take it as a licence to hurl abuse my way and get away with it, a bit like black people thinking they can get away with insulting other black people just because they're similar. His words had no effect on my esteem but to those prone to such stuff the damage could have been incalculable. I think these types of school teacher were far far more than 1%. There was always silence allowing some of these PE tossers to get away with their low level weekly personal insults against selected children. Never been to a re-union but would delight in telling this tool exactly what I think of him even though I left school in the summer of 1995. He was young enough to probably still be doing the same to other stick thin gingers like me even now.

Only for those in the know Tom F :) and it has nothing to do with my contribution to this site.

Stuart, the lettering of your email address has inadvertently said as much about you as your post if I may say. ;-)

Graham Butterfield - what a great post and I join with you in saying that my expeirences of PE teachers was all positive, they were indeed not the stereotype you hear so often talked about on here and in general.

I went in the mid 70s to early 80s to all boys school (prep 7-11) and then senior (11-18) and did PE and games throughout twice a week. One PE lesson usually in the school gym and then one afternoon of sport (football, rugby, hockey, cricket etc) . There was also swimming on top of that - in the prep school, use of the senior pool weekly and then in a different senior school use of public pool in selecyted PE lessons.

Our kit was simple: PE white shorts, white top, plimsolls. No underwear, compulsory showers afterwards.
Games : typical sports kit at the school playing fields followed again by in the first year use of 2 big baths you used to see in pro football pictures (often with a cup!) and which really didn't get you clean and then over the summer thankfully replaced by a modern shower block from the second year onwards.

Every boy showered and I can't recall anyone complaining, some were more shy than others though. We grew up together , so it was no big deal. Teachers were present but that was to ensure boys didn't skip the showers and also to stop any bullying, misbehaviour etc.

I have been to a few reunions and reconnected with fellow former pupils , sport talked about but more in terms of matches, victories etc not about the post match showers. The cricket team collegaues in the 6th form remembered stopping off at country pubs on the way back from away matches with the teacher - we all remarked that would never happen nowadays even though most of the team (U6th) were by that stage 18 years old.

The only "controversial" part of my PE experience was in the prep school in that we had swimming in the nude. I say controversial because it would be that today but back then it wasn't at all. Our parents sent us to school with just a towel, the Headmaster showed prospective parents round whilst we were swimming. No one cared back then, it was quite common practice in boys private schools as it was in the YMCAs in America.

My email address is on here always happy to correspond privately and indeed do with 2 people from this site. Hope that helps Graham.

Always have good memories of PE from my time at school in the 90s so compared to some it wasn't that long ago. We never wore jockstrap and the rules said we were to do PE without underwear for hygienic reasons and no nobody ever checked. If the lesson was outside and we got muddy from running cross country or playing rugby then we all took a shower it wasn't a big deal yes they were communal showers but I don't remember anyone having a problem about getting one. Our indoor and outdoor summer kit was white tee, white or navy shorts and bare feet. Our outdoor winter kit was rugby shirt, navy shorts and footwear was dependent on the activities we were doing.

It is a great shame that there is so much negativity surrounding Phys.Ed during schooldays as I think I may have mentioned in one of my debut write ups some weeks ago. Many thanks to Laura for the acknowledgement by the way.

I have attended a number of former pupils and staff reunions at a couple of the places I’ve worked over the years. When former pupils come up to me they tend to be mostly positive memories, although not always I’m ready to admit. But it does appear that those who come to reunions from schooldays and want to meet old faces whether that’s old friends or teachers, are the type who had generally positive school experiences and also who have done well in life. I’ve been wary at reunions that I’m probably only seeing and hearing part of the overall picture and that much remains unknown. Most people do not come to school reunions and even if they knew about them I’m sure some would actively wish to avoid many they once shared school life with, whether in class with their peers or teachers.

I was always completely aware that there are plenty of kids who struggle with Phys.Ed in many different ways, whether it be what they are asked to partake in or how they are asked to present themselves. Then you’d get those who struggled but actually loved Phys.Ed despite their limitations. The ones I really got sharp with were those who chose not to make any effort at all, but that’s not as many as you’d think actually, even among the haters.

I used to frequently get given the annual task of showing the new intake around all of the school blocks on a full school tour a couple of months before they arrived proper in autumn. When we’d arrive in my area in the periods I took Phys.Ed (I did Maths as well) I’d bring everyone into the gym hall and use that as a place to invite questions. Nearly every time the questions were the same. 1) Do we have to go outside when it rains? Yes. 2) How long is Phys.Ed? 3) Do we still have to do Phys.Ed if we forget our kit? Most of the time a yes. 4) Can we choose what to wear? No. 5) Do we do Phys.Ed inside with or without a top? Both. 6) Do we have to do football/rugby/running etc, take your pick. Yes. 7) Can we wear a watch? Generally no, but sometimes allowed for personal run times. But the biggest question of all which never once failed to get asked in these situations from the new intake was 8) Will we have to take a shower? The answer was always yes, as every school I worked in including the foreign ones I was seconded to required them as part of Phys.Ed, and I think it’s the right thing to provide, even if I was aware when I answered this question that you could sense a collective intake of breath at times and shuffling body language amongst many of the group looking on with their fears surrounding nudity amongst each other being asked of them. Always one for reassurance I would often add that the doing of all these Phys.Ed things was often easier than overthinking it all, which for most it was.

Troubles, fears, or negativity in life is often halved by facing down the reasons head on. It really is. Perceptions matter too, and there are some dreadfully unfair and inaccurate perceptions about school, and Phys.Ed and those who took it specifically that are often allowed to run wild. Whether you went to school in the 1940’s through to recent decades, most Phys.Ed men, and the women while I’m at it, were great people, fair, enthusiastic, decent and tolerant. Just because your Phys.Ed teacher, like me, made you do a sport you hated didn’t make him or me an uncaring ogre, and just because Phys.Ed teachers asked their young charges to clean up properly with highly visible collective group showering of the class afterwards in their 11+ years did not make Phys.Ed teachers 99% of the time sinister voyeurs. I really feel I have to say that, as I’ve come across a couple of contributions on here that would perpetrate a myth that every other person, if not nearly everyone should be viewed with an air of suspicion. I took to task someone on the Hesketh chat to mention one example of somebody recently.

I’d love to know if anyone here has ever been to a school reunion, either as a former pupil or staff in any capacity and what they found the experience to be like.

I’ve noticed that some people place an e-mail link on here. Has this proven useful with any worthwhile private feedback at all?

Matthew

Did you make an error when you said ‘unfortunately, men have engaged in conversation with her’ (Andrea, Bless her). (Fortunately, surely)

The input from the ladies over the years has been very enjoyable and I think back to Claire’s recent work finding posts that were lifted from other sources, Rachel’s comments about hairy chests and not forgetting Emma (& her husband) whom someone described as ‘perfect parents’ (or similar).

This ‘board’ started way back in 2008 and I’ve been contributing on-and-off since then. Early discussions seemed to be about ‘British Bulldog’ (which I don’t think we played at school) and ‘Pirates’ (which we did, and which probably broke every H&S in the book, even then [at least the way we played it]). Over the years there’ve been all sorts of mini-threads (like the claim that at one boarding school the pupils were locked into chastity devices at the start of term), plus the endless discussions about wearing underpants and ‘shirts v skins’. (A suggestion once that there was a Government instruction that underpants were not to be worn and ‘Inspectors’ went round checking on that).

We’ve had ‘fantasists’ – one person who does need sympathy & support (and who probably also appeared under a pseudonym) and people who were, to me, a little too intense in some of the following questions.

And, of course the questions about medical inspections...

Sad to say, that seems to have gone from the board. It only seems a few weeks ago, but was probably longer, when someone was threatened with legal action (or similar) after comments were made about a named teacher (and similar suggestions only a few days ago.)

Recently the question of, err, ‘jockstraps’ came up (horrible garments – I didn’t wear them at school), but to suggest:

‘One has to presume that the mere act of talking about them has the same effect as outlined below.’ – a reference to an article in Wikipedia (which does draw from a well reviewed book).

I’m afraid I find this rather out of order – I don’t particular want to read (or contribute to) this board (and before anyone says it, although ‘retired’ I am deeply involved in ‘social care’ – it’s just that I don’t talk about it).

Michael on 13th April 2022 at 12:01

My memories of PE are good ones, it was strict, hard, challenging and rewarding but I looked forward to it, can't say I always enjoyed running, bare chest in the snow but I always felt great afterwards!

I think that this section of the History World web site has attracted so much attention because even after so many years, memories, all too often negative, still linger from many correspondents' 1950s or 1960s school PE lessons.

But surely, our childhoods included many more, hopefully much happier aspects, which are covered in other sections of this excellent web site, and to which I would encourage people to contribute their recollections.

Your gracious apology is fully accepted with thanks Pete.

To John,
Have you not seen the postings of Andrea? We know all about her "ex" but she has also been very keen to tell us about her own experiences in respect of her physical development I don't think many women view this site but, unfortunately, men have engaged in conversation with her

Gotta say I tend to feel similar to those who agree with the Laura stuff on here.

David G can you explain what you meant please. I took up your suggestion and am none the wiser. What is there to see through? My strong sense is he is filled with too much baggage and a lot of pointless fear of others. Alan, I hope you are happier in life than your comments suggest.

Geoff B, don't give the women any ideas on how to compete with the men on the undergarment fixation, but you made me laugh with that brilliant analogy.

Pete, kudos for the perfect unconditional apology. That's how to do one.

Laura
Please accept my apologies to you. I clearly was out order. Sorry

Couldn't agree more with Tony, Laura and Alan here. About time it was said.

I've been sick and tired of dipping in here and hearing about bloody jockstraps. We don't get the ladies coming on blathering on about when they had to start wearing a bra across their bosoms to keep things from swinging about during their teens at school do we.

Bravo Laura. You'll either now get ignored or pilloried for that masteful response. Well said.

Okay Pete, you lit the fuse, expect the blowback.

Friday was my first post from a longtime 'lurker'.

When you decide to stand up against something it's always the way that you can place yourself in the firing line, even on a benign history forum it seems. For some reason I've been called sanctimonious and without any foundation been bound together with someone named Alan as one and the same. Maybe Pete you are judging others by your own standards of behaviour and have been dropping in on this forum under countless named guises with jockstrap comments galore. Maybe you have or maybe you haven't, on balance probably not, but please don't accuse me of being somebody else just because you chose not to like the fact I've taken some elements of the direction of this history site to task for a quite patently obvious over obsession.

Let's have a bit of civility. I know it's hard even for some well into adulthood. This is not the school playground now and it's not great to read here and see some people singled out for groundless attacks. Based on what I came on here and read tonight I read back through many of Alan's posts this past few months and saw nothing to justify such singling out. I don't agree with Alan on some of what he says or the angle he chooses to say it but I'll absolutely defend his right to say it without having to endure personal abuse and forum intimidation which I'd guess he had during school like so many I've come across in my own job.

If you endure deep hurt in school it lasts your lifetime. The oldest person I've worked with was eighty years of age and once related to me in intricate detail their life from almost 70 years earlier. I'm currently seeing some still in school today regards anxiety, confidence, self esteem, pandemic and bullying issues.

Tony, yes when I mentioned the PE teacher it was the comment by Graham on March 24th I was thinking about.

Incase anyone wishes to know about me, both my parents were in the teaching profession and I'm working in NHS psychology and deal a lot with mindfulness issues privately of those who were bullied in childhood and into adulthood. There is no shortage of work sadly.

I had a wondeful time in school, including PE which I loved and got stuck into with gusto. I continue as an adult, playing tennis some weeks on the local court. But I was always aware I was lucky like that and many others were not like me. It gave me a passion in life to think about others and what they think and how they react and to always stand up for the underdog and never turn a blind eye to injustice.

I'll go with Laura here and concur and also with the entry placed on 24-3-22 which said something similar to her thoughts yesterday and I presume is one of the entries on here that Laura made passing reference to.

Alan on 8th April 2022 at 20:28

Oh dear, I see you are back trying to call out others for your own faults. Two wrongs do not make a right.

To anyone who has no notion of what Alan is referring to, just scroll back two or more pages and you will find his disordered posts. There are plenty of them and also his being called out by a number of posters who see straight through him.

Strikes me that Alan = Laura, Laura = Alan. Either way each could spare us the sanctimonious sneering!

I agree with Laura. Some weeks ago a few contributors accused me of being a fantasist, or even a liar because they didn't like some things I had written based on true events that happened in my life albeit some years ago now. What I wrote was true, and was my own genuine experiences. at a now thankfully defunct school, I notice those who were hurrumphing about me, haven't said a word about these seedy underwear fetishists.

I'm struggling to understand the direction that this school history site has taken recently. Although I've come to my own conclusions into why there seems to be this obsessive and completely disproportionate focussing on male underwear, lack of, and especially jockstraps in particular. Of all the things that go on in schooldays and even within just games lessons, to zone in constantly on this issue speaks plenty to me and I assume other readers who have a genuine interest in genuine memories.

No wonder this site has failed to get any half decent memories for a while when this kind of fetishist trivia is indulged time and again in a conversation going nowhere and never developing and yet some people who recently wrote readable input here last month, that PE teacher was completely passed by as someone even worth reacting to by anyone here. You couldn't make it up!

One has to presume that the mere act of talking about them has the same effect as outlined below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwear_fetishism#Jockstraps

Mark. Completely agree with your memories of initially wearing jockstraps. Once we were told that we could wear them we too wanted to be like the older boys and be very "manly". Whether we achieved that is debateable !