Burnley Grammar School

Philip: Thank you for your insulting post. FYI I do not post fantasy. Those things I say happened to me DID happen, but I suppose you would find some excuse for it in your strict disciplinarian mind - talking of your mind set you don't belong in the 21st century, your views accord more with the 1940s and 50s.

I take it you don't regard William's constant remarks about boys swimming naked as in any way dubious?. Can I suggest therefore that you ignore what I write if it bothers you so much.

You are hoping for a time that will never return, but please keep your holier-than-thou remarks to those who appreciate them. You could do with a few lessons in common courtesy

There are two people who post here and display a disturbing attitude.

One is addicted to search school uniform lists and decrying what is found there. That to me demonstrates a very sick mind set and an obsession with what children are or are not wearing. The posts are totally inappropriate.

The second is Alan, always posting fantasy and put down of people who are simply recalling their memories of earlier years and more innocent times before we had misguided things like 'stranger danger' and 'every adult is a potential abuser' instilled into the mindset of children who in reality are not at anything like the risk those initiatives claim they were but Alan would like that to be true and in his fantasies applied retrospectively to every innocent memory.

I think both the guilty parties should be seeking treatment for their addictions, not posting here.

Tim & Phillip: I only respond when somebody says something disturbing. William's gratuitous remarks about naked boys swimming does genuinely concern me. I didn't start those remarks, he did. He often does exhibit this rather unhealthy interest. If commenting on something many would consider indecent in 2022 is "trolling" than I am, but sadly this particular thread seems to have been taken over by fantasists who like to air matters of this sort.

Like Philip I have to raise my eyebrows at the irony of Alan's comment regarding trolls.

Alan on 22nd February 2022 at 06:49

Oh, the irony of your remark. If anyone is trolling....

William (in particular) and Shaw, with respect you both seem to be trolling as there have been very few posts on this thread of late. Naked schoolboys swimming might interest you. It disgusts me that teachers could be so blatant not that many years ago, and it is reassuring to know now that anyone who promoted it would quickly find themselves on the Sex Offenders Register , and however much you regret it the so-called "good old days" will never return because kids are far more savvy in 2022. Other than that, I have nothing to say.

Alan, another child sex slavery gang being uncovered is weekly news at this point, how would schoolboys swimming naked be of any significance in such environment?

Simon D and Philips posts ring true especially that firsi lesson where you discovered what "skins" meant having just stripped to the waist. My PE teachers at middle and high school were very keen to enforce barechested culture both inside and outdoors. It was a very regular sight to look out of classroom windows and see either a whole PE group or half dropping their vests depending on the activity. Running around the field was done with each lad stripped down whilst xcountry had teams of skins and vests. Running barechested in the rain actually made sense instead of wearing a soaking wet vest. There were different sports from basketball which could be either indoors or on the painted netball courts through to football/rugby which the teachers still found a way to get lads to drop vests on the sidelines. Noone would deny it was easy and the girls were quick to say "can't believe you were stripped off in that" in the winter. Would it say it's worth it? Yes Today's boys could definitely do with it instead of being cossetted and show them how to be confident about how they look, especially to the girls. You'd find the so called body issues would reduce too

From his post earlier in this thread, "Sandy Pools" was in high-school in the USA in the 1960s. So probably no chance of things like this happening these days.
Incidentally, this is a verbatim copy of a post appearing in Quora a year or so ago, not the first time material of this nature has been lifted and reposted here.

I have no idea when this happened but if it had been any time in the last 15 years I am not surprised it only happened one (I am surprised it happened at all). Such behaviour from a games master, if the head got to hear about it, would, I should hope, have horrified him or her. The teacher, whether innocent or not would have laid him/herself open to a charge of child abuse - just imagine the local paper, still more, the nationals, if they had got hold of the story "Schoolboys forced to swim naked".

It never ceases to amaze me how brazen some teachers were. This is the reason I think there needs to be full vetting before teachers are placed in a position where they can force their whims on boys (or girls)

Sandy Pools' wife's swimming experience is similar to mine. Occasionally outdoor PE lessons would be cancelled and because the girls were occupying the gym, this would convert to an impromptu swim lesson. As many would not have brought costumes we simply wore our PE shorts as substitutes and all was ok.
One cancelled lesson was diverted to the pool, but as many of us had muddy shorts on were told to take them off and we had to head down the corridor with nothing but a towel wrapped around ourselves much to our surprise and horror!
Once in the water it was far better than we had feared and actually became enjoyable, but it only ever happened the once in the end and never repeated sadly.

Mr Dando

Aside from flooding these discussions with off-topic regurgitations of school uniform clothing lists, what are you ACTUALLY DOING to further your interminable crusade against basic hygiene in schools?

I think any PE Teacher or Educational Institution that requires a child to shower is depraved and debased. Here is another UK school that thinks compulsion in this day and age is acceptable.

https://www.castlehill.stockport.sch.uk/Information/Uniforms/

Clothing for PE

The following are required for PE:

T-shirt, shorts & trainers (any colour)

PE classes take place both indoors and outdoors and therefore students should bring clothing as appropriate for weather conditions. Students are required to shower after PE and should bring a towel. On Wednesdays, at certain times of the year, Year 7 students will need to bring a swimming kit for swimming lessons.

It is time for this forum to speak truth to power and end compulsory PE and showers.

Philip. Forgive me if I "whinge and whine" again, but you never went to my school, or other schools where there were such teachers, so you are ignorant of what can happen.

You were clearly a good little boy who never got the cane because he didn't deserve it - well done you, however whatever monument to purity you attended, they didn't teach you very good manners to dismiss other people's views based on their experiences, in such condescending terms. I can assure you we did have such teachers, because 40+ years ago, creeps like this didn't have to undergo CRB checks.

Alan on 1st February 2022 at 04:36

Once again, your post confirms in my mind that I am right. Much better be content than a sad, twisted and bitter whiner and whinger. I didn't meet any PE teachers who I would even begin to consider perverts, just men who wanted us to do our best.

Equally, I was never given a caning I didn't deserve and I don't remember any other lad complaining that he had been either. So you keep whining and whinging on the sidelines, your views have nothing in common with mine and I won't bother responding to your bizarre thinking again.

Philip "Better days?". You seem to disapprove of parents complaining when their son was caned - there were some very sadistic teachers who enjoyed using the cane.

As for some of the old perverts who were PE teachers - the profession should have been grateful dubious types were not allowed to get their jollies any longer.

You sound as if you approve of the methods of the past when boys meekly accepted all that was dished out to them. I don't, and I am glad that these days the methods of the past are questioned.

Back in my high school days early 00s which isn't really too long ago our kit for PE was indoors sports hall - white polo's and navy shorts worn with white soled trainers or bare feet. Indoors in gym -white polo and navy shorts with bare feet. Outside PE school colours rugby shirt and navy shorts with trainers or boots for rugby. If you forgot your kit you was loaned a pair of shorts only and had to be shirtless when inside If Outside you was allowed your school sweater if you had one. To denote different teams we were given like a plastic coloured sash to wear.

TimH on 28th January 2022 at 11:12

You sum up life back in the period we are talking about so well. I remember too well my first winter at university and having to fend for myself, sitting writing my essays with ice on the inside of the windows, wearing a coat and gloves because it was so cold. I couldn't afford heating but having been a boarding school boy where heating was almost non-existant in the winter, it wasn't so bad.

During that winter, I still turned out as I had done every winter for years for rugby with training in the snow and I continued to run every morning just as I had for years at school regardless of the weather. It was what we were used to and as before it did me no harm.

I remember thinking things were going downhill when there was the case of the over protective mummy who challenged her son being caned at school and of course over time she won the case, interferring in the education of boys for the rest of time. IIRC, that was in 1987 in state schools and 1998 in private ones.

If I had gone home and complained that I had been caned the only consequence would have been a further dose, no questions asked and no excuses tolerated, it was not a mistake I ever made because my brother had warned me not to on the basis of his own experience.

All I will say is the IME, it worked. No boy liked getting the cane and I certainly did my best to avoid it but didn't always succeed on that score and duly paid the price for my wrong doing ranging from a couple of taps over my trousers for running in a corridor - taps that still stung badly to the maximum sentence for what was deemed an act of vandalism of eight on my bare bottom and that was certainly an experience I didn't want to repeat and managed not to.

They were still better days.

Mr Butterfield, as you have long experience as a physical. ed teacher your reminiscences would be much appreciated on this site. What were the content of your PE lessons and what dress code did you prefer at the three schools you mention. Do you think lesson content has improved or deteriorated in this country over time. What were the ages of the boys you taught and over what time period. Many thanks in advance.

I read the postings from Simon D & Philip with interest and then went ‘Crikey – that was hard’. I then thought back to winters in the late 50s through to the 1970s – they seemed a lot harder & colder then ... ice on the inside of windows, central heating & double glazing not common, houses heated by a single coal fire and whatever residual heat you got from cookers, coats on beds to keep you warm, walking to school through real snow in shorts ... Add to this the winter of 1962/3 which, before the snow & the freeze, had a a period of ‘choking fog’ in December – we were sent home from school. A period when a classroom window was out for some time. And in the 1970s talk of a ‘mini-ice age’ ... so I suppose we did live a rather more ‘Spartan’ life. (BTW the Offices, Shops & Railway Premises act of 1963 stipulated a 'working temperature of 16C [61F] as a minimum - but, IIRC, to be achieved one hour after starting work).

‘Training’ was different then ... large firms had apprentice training which could include ‘gym time’, or time at an ‘Outward Bound School’. Someone once posted here a link to a training film of ‘apprentices’ in the Dutch port of Rotterdam (I think). As well as the expected things like boat & cargo handling, there were sections with youths doing pretty intensive gym work. There is a phrase ‘Train Hard ... Fight Easy ...’ and I can’t help but think that many of us who grew up in the 60s & 70s have had a better time than some younger people.

‘you would find that boys today would not tolerate it, and if the school persisted in it, many parents would be up the school’ ... ummm ... there are lots of things in life you have learn to tolerate, I’m afraid.

Mention of over protective parents is nothing that new to me. Intriguingly only in the school here at home I worked at was there a Phys.Ed note problem on a regular basis from various parents, almost always mums. It didn't exist in the two schools I worked overseas for some reason. The notes always had the same circle of content about kit issues, winter weather outside, certain sports avoidance like football and rugby from boys who disliked those and showering issues from the unconfident ones. Only a small minority were entertained and most were discarded despite parental pleading for this and that. Parents often attempted to dictate nearly every aspect of our Phys.Ed structure.
To cut it short we took little notice of most notes and my own boss actually used to rip most notes up on the spot but even then it never quite deterred some. I thought that was a touch uncalled for and did see one young lad reduced to tears when this happened, when I think his mother had requested a shower exemption. The note issue affected mainly the first and second year groups, not the later ones. The rule of loco parentis was used and my department head made it rather clear to his Phys.Ed staff that we had full authority over parents wishes while the kids were in school in respect of what kit they had to wear or not, and whether they showered or not, plus the sport they did.
Did I think it was unreasonable, well not really otherwise it would have been a free for all with no actual discipline and authority effectively given.
I have a feeling one or two gentlemen on here may not approve.

Across in Canada and France were I worked there always seemed far more genuine enthusiasm than here at home for all aspects of Phys.Ed. Not sure why to be honest. British Phys.Ed seems to have had a bad reputation that went ahead of it for so many kids and one which looks to me like it's left a mark very long afterwards too. What a crying shame that is.

Alan on 27th January 2022 at 04:08

A post like yours convinces me that I am right. We had it better back then with our spartan (your word) ways. So much better than over protective parents running to schools.

Philip you said "I think better than youngsters have it today."

I think you would find that boys today would not tolerate it, and if the school persisted in it, many parents would be up the school complaining and the local newspaper would be investigating as well. Not everybody enjoyed the "good old" spartan days, even in the old days.

Simon D, having been a boarding school boy too in the 1960s and early 70s, I identify with your account. Our gym shorts were white and kit for anything other than rugby was white shorts and plimsolls - no underpants with either gym or rugby kit.

We ran every morning at 06.30 come rain or shine or in the winter more like sleet or snow, it did me no harm and like you too, at the front and rear of the run was a PE master in their usual black shorts and also bare chested. The only difference between their run and ours was that when it ended with two lengths of the outdoor pool they had speedo style trunks under their shorts and we went in naked as we always did for swimming. It was an every morning routine even if there was ice on the pool.

I loved sport at school and I wouldn't change any of it for the world. It was a great time of my life and I think better than youngsters have it today.

My boarding school placed a big emphasis on physical fitness. Though the school PE/Games kit stated a pale blue vest and a rugby/football jersey supposedly for winter it was made crystal clear from the start vests would only be worn if the teachers deemed it cold enough and half the PE group was expected to play football/rugby as skins, a word we'd be very familiar with very soon. For our first lesson we were taken outside in vests and one by one were called out to run to the end of one of the courts and strip off and run back. The school policy of stripping to the waist to exercise meant every early morning runs (each day excluding Sundays) laps of the field, detentions and cross country too. Harsh, especially in the snow and ice of a typical British winter.
It was absolutely normal to leave the gym glistening under the lights and normal to see other lads emerge in a similar state if we passed by the gym after fitness work or basketball. I was sporty and was pushed harder and like others on the school teams found myself having extra training sessions obviously in skins. My school and it's teachers pushed barechested exercise to the max but it in a good way. There's still a place for skins just not in an extreme way. Lads would benefit by it and learn a bit of masculinity too.

TimH, Alan

Totally agree. When i was a kid, SPF 20 was really pushing the boat out. When our kids were in the sun, we thought SPF 30 was only needed in the Med/Canaries etc. Now, SPF 50 seems baseline. How times have changed!

To follow up Alan's posting - I regularly drive past a fairly large junior school, with south facing grounds and, on summers days, I've often thought it sensible that the boys are wearing T-shirts.

Chris G: The possibility of skin cancer is doubtless the reason why boys are not encouraged to work outdoors without a top these days - the same applies in the building trade where it is strongly discouraged. I don't think there would be time in the average lesson period for them to cover themselves in Factor 50.

Robert, an interesting piece of reminiscence., and some interesting contrasts, if I u understand you correctly. You had to wear a T-shirt for PE but your grandson doesn't need to if he so wishes. You were encouraged to be bare-chested for outside activities in warm weather, but your grandson doesn't have that luxury. Were you and he at school in the same area, or even at the same school? and what PE kit did your grandson's father have?

I am new here and would like to add my experience of school PE in the later 70's contrasted with the experience of my 10 year old grandson currently in Junior School. In Junior school in a small Northumberland town we wore a blue t-shirt and white cotton gym shorts. We always worked barefoot indoors but wore running shoes with white socks outside, when it was cold we could wear a vest under the t-shirt but we never wore underwear under the shorts. I can be certain of this as I still pocess a photo of me in the school gymnastics team aged about 10 created one year to perform for parents one evening.
In PE we played all the common chase and ball games, indoors we had a well equipped hall with a very shiney wooden floor i remember well with wall bars and vaulting horse and I got to be quite good at gymnastics. We also played 5 a side football and did fitness training. Outdoors we played football and did cross country and athletics. In summer we played softball. When the weather was warm we were encouraged to do runs bare chested and that became the norm. There were never any showers and we just got changed with the girls in the classroom. We had a lady teacher and sometimes High School boys doing PE O levels would come to our school to help. I always got on well with them. I enjoyed PE alot, it was probably my favourite lesson of the week and it took up a whole afternoon each week.
My grandson Peter goes to a local Junior School in a council estate. For indoor PE he has black gym shorts but has the choice to work either barefoot or in socks and pumps and to either wear a white cotton t-shirt or work bare chested. Peter always chooses to work barefoot and without the top. He goes to a gymnastics club on Saturday morning where he is normally dressed the same.
His indoor PE seems to be mostly games although they do a little light conditioning each lesson. Not enough to ever actually work up a sweat or truly improve flexibility. There is no oppotunity to do actual gymnastics or any sport for that matter. Boys and girls do exactly the same things which makes no sense to me. It probably acts to make the boys less active. They have a lady teacher. Outdoors he plays football and does abit of athletics and softball in summer. Cross country seems to be a thing of the past. For outdoor PE he wears a rugby top and there is no option to be bare chested even on hot days. He has one hour of PE indoors and one hour outdoors on separate days.
To contrast our experiences, Peter is worked far less hard in class and the school offers no oppotunity to actually be good in any sport, it seems to be just assumed that actual skill in something will be learned at an out of school club. Peter's classes seem much less formal and disciplined and more designed to be fun so no kid is put off.