Burnley Grammar School

Having been in high school in the 60’s I don’t find credible the claims that women swam nude in high school PE, with or without men present. With one exception: my wife’s experience.

Years ago my wife and I were comparing high school experiences and stumbled on the topic of nude swimming in PE class. I had gone to a private boys’ school, where suits were not worn in the pool, and no one seemed to give it much thought. Anne went to an upscale suburban high school in the Midwest. Boys and girls had separate PE and swimming classes; for swimming classes everyone wore suits provided by the school.

On one of the days that she was scheduled for swim class she hurried to get undressed and take the required nude soap shower (big sign in the locker room.) When she finished and left the shower she saw that the bins that held the suits were empty! The PE instructor standing at the door told them that the laundry hadn’t made their delivery that morning and there were not enough clean suits to go around. ‘So, if everyone can’t have a suit, then no one gets a suit.’
Anne said at first she was stunned. She wasn’t very comfortable walking through the locker room naked and showering in an open shower room with 20 other girls, and she’d never been swimming nude in her life, so to line up by the pool and have everyone looking at her...
She looked around and saw that some of others looked shocked, some looked horrified, one or two were nearly in tears, but a few seemed excited about the idea. A couple girls tried arguing with the instructor, saying they if they didn’t have enough suits they should just cancel the class. This was met with a one word answer, ‘No.’

The instructor herded them down a long dank corridor and through a door into the pool. Anne, bowing to the inevitable, followed along, trying to shield herself with her hands and keep her eyes focused on backside of the girl ahead of her. The instructor lined them up against the wall and had them stand there while she took role. Anne said she felt self-conscious and a little silly standing there naked, but realized that no one was staring at her, and most of the girls looked just as self-conscious as she felt.

She said it was much better once they got in the water. She found it somehow liberating to feel the water on her bare skin, and she got increasingly comfortable. By the end of the class she realized it had been fun in a naughty sort of way.

Even now at our age Anne still enjoys a good skinny dip. As do I.

Claire,we also had to PE in shorts with no top,bare foot,and no underwear.
We had to adhere to wearing minimal kit whether we liked it or not.

School in the 90s for me and PE was done in white shorts, white tee and barefoot. The uniform suggested no underwear but this was never checked so we just wore underwear as normal. There was no shirts and skins we wore coloured sashes.

Chris - boys doing PE, and other exercise, topless has always seemed to be a good idea to me, Back when i was at school, I was always envious of my brother being allowed to take his top off for PE , while I had to endure a clingy polo-shirt - not even the luxury of a sleeveless vest, and still less the freedom of a sports bra, for us girls. i should add that topless was optional for the boys, generally with 100% uptake!

Seems an emotive subject for some. The school was mixed and all PE/Games lessons were performed
single sex so for us it meant being barechested in the gym while half stripped off for outdoor sessions leaving half in vests.. Indoors we were pushed hard in the gym. With the big reinforced windows running the length of the gym it was very easy for the girls to see us all excercise. Outside was hard during winter and most of spring too. I was very ordinary looking but was one of four lads in our class picked to strip off for the vast majority of outdoor sessions something the girls always picked up on too. I never felt there was an agenda it was funny how it happened. I don't know what Clair thinks but I feel stripping to the waist (at least in the gym) is a good thing and should be encouraged.

I've been reading this thread for a long time and am disappointed thatit's been hijacked by so many fantasists so in the hope of getting it back on track I've decided to make a contribution.

I attended a state Grammar School in the late 1960's/ early 70's. PE Kit was white T shirt and shorts with underwear allowed. Showers were in theory compulsory but dodged by many as there wasn't much supervision. I only remember one boy wearing a jockstrap but he went on to represent England at cricket so perhaps not surprising.

I never felt that there was any favouritism when it came to shirts or skins and was probably both for about 50% of the time. Higher up the school we often played 5 a side football for one of the PE periods with four or five teams and first goal wins. The other teams had to sit on top of the wall bars and know when it was their turn to replace the losing side. It meant you woulod play a number of games during the lesson as both shirts and skins.

I wasn't particularly good at PE or games but tried to make up for it through effort. This often included vocally with me frequently disagreeing with decisions. On one occasion I accidentally caught somebody with my elbow whilst playing basketball and when penalised asked what was that for? At the end of the lesson, the teacher who was taking the lesson and who played rugby at quite a high level sent me to put something in the store as everybody else left the gym. As I was walking out he walked alongside me and elbowed me quite hard in the stomach before walking out, leaving me on the floor, and telling me that was what I'd done. We just accepted such summary punishment without argument although I think it did becoming bullying towards some of the weaker boys.

And this, from three years ago looks strangely familiar, except that the poster's name is different.

Comments by Eric on 11th August 2018

Just to talk about pe shirtless experience
One time we were doing PE and we were playing football at sea. It was winter and we were with a vest because there were around 35/38 F. degrees. One of my friend made my a strong faul and I reacted so that teacher order me to take off my shirt and to play without it as a punishment. It was very cold but I was used to it because sometimes I run in snow bare chested. The problem was that I threw her my shirt so that she got very angry and said: “ok if you don’t want to go to the headmaster for this, just go into the sea” I was frozen, without a shirt and it also started raining, in fact my classmates went to repare under a palm, but I had to do this thing to avoid the headmaster so I entered in the sea and remained there for some minutes. When I came out she didn’t give me back my shirt so that I was shirtless with pouring rain on my chest and I couldn’t warm in any way... unluckily I reacted another time to the teacher so after we went back to school on foot, obviously I was still shirtless under rain, she said ok we must continue. She said ok I put your shirt in your class but you’ll go back school after other 2 hours of excericises. She let me run for other 10 kilometer in a park near school. It was very muddy and my chest got dirty. Then she let me made a lot of push ups near puddles so that I can got more dirty. At the end of the punishment, which lasted 3 hours, she said “ok you’re tough, you can go back school on foot, I’ll go back by car because there are 5 kilometres”... the last 5 kilometers I was too tired, it stopped raining but it started hailing and my chest was covered in mud, grass, water and other dirty things.. at the end I discovered that it wasn’t only a punishment because she also gave me 10 which is the maximum vote so that all this effort was paid.. moreover it was very exciting too and I think that in the future I could do this thing another time, maybe even more tough.

Of course 'Josh' is telling very big, tall tales. Lying, fantasising or however you want to judge it. Behaving like that with a child in the care of school would be an immediate suspension and almost certain dismissal offence and possibly more, whenever it happened. Name the school and name the teacher and name the date to provide verifiable details otherwise, but that wilI not be forthcoming so not too much time needs to be wasted on such claims. I wrote on the Clitheroe discussion bringing to task somebody styling themselves as 'Sandra' who wrote her/his own fairy tales and it was followed up by this other character who has actually placed the very same tale on here as he did on the Clitheroe chat, twenty four hours apart. I have no idea what motivates such people.

Most Phys.Ed teachers were and still are decent people who really cared although I will freely admit there are always the bad apples and I saw that a couple of times myself over a number of decades, but it would have been the same in any job probably. One of my own colleagues left very suddenly and I was never able to find out the details despite working with him for seven years. But we also used to get letters from former pupils full of praise and good memories of their time in school even in Phys.Ed lessons with all that entailed.

I feel really rather sad when I hear about those with bad Phys.Ed memories and poor self image about themselves long into adulthood. Some youngsters end up appreciating being taken away from their own personal comfort zones and yet others are left resentful, sometimes forever, if the evidence I have browsed on here is anything to go by.

Thanks to Claire for the detective work - I thought I remembered 'something'.

I think Josh ... is telling fibs. (Santa won't come if you tell fibs, you know)

IF!!!

Does this previous posting here look familiar? Same basic elements, aggravation of female teacher, cold, shirt removed and inaccessible, only one in class bare-chested,

"Comments by Josh on 6th December 2018
Hi, I came from a small village near Bristol, and yes, our teacher used to punish us by caning ourselves. One time I forgot PE kit, and she ordered me to join the group taking off my shirt, then she take my shirt so that I cannot take on if I was cold. It was winter and extremely cold, moreover I was the only one bare chested but I was very angry so I offended her.. it was the end, she ordered me to run other 5 laps (400 meter each one) while the other boys were seeing me from the window because of cold. At the end she caned me and it was terrible because I still was shirtless until she let me go inside and gave me my shirt back, even though I prefer to remain shirtless because my chest was full of sweat and I didn’t want to dirty a new shirt."

IF Josh's story is true, it only shows that women teachers can be as sadistic and repulsive as male teachers. There certainly seems to be some very dubious people teaching PE - and 10/15 years takes us to as recently as 2006.

Stuart, my apologies for mis-attribution!

Have you ever been punished either at school or outside? I remember 10/15 years ago when I answered back my teacher, she didn’t let me run or other things, she only told me: take off your shirt and let me tie your wrists to the basket. Obviously it was outside and weather was really cold, if I run I could warm myself but in this way I had to stay an hour taking cold. More over, She told the other guys to untie me at the end of the lesson and to go home without re entering school. When teacher left, after an hour in freezing cold bare chested, I received the true punishment, because the guys decided not to untie me.. I received a lot of punch, some spit, some whip and I remember a guy who put his cigarette out on my chest. The only thing I could do was to watch and take it. At the end they untie me, but I can say it was strangely funny, even though I was destroyed ahah

Finoa , it was me who went to Caterham not William. Yes it was compulsory naked swim in the prep school up to what is now year 8 (13 years old).
There is photographic evidence on the school's alumni website from the 1930s that nude swimming was throughout the whole school back then, but I dont know when it changed to just the prep school only.

I was never a boarder so can't comment on the bedtime dress code.

William - was swimming nude compulsory for you at Caterham. Pr was it officially optional and widely practiced.

And going a bit off-topic, the Boarders clothing/equipment list at Caterham used to say "nightwear, if worn". Can you remember how that was implemented in practice?

William
I went to Caterham Prep School in Surrey between 1973-77 and we sawm nude inthe senior schools indoor pool. It was pretty common back then , certainly in all boys private schools.

Trevor - thanks, just been back and read your post.

ChrisG

If you can't access the Telegraph article l gave a short precis of it in this thread on 29 June 2020.

William - but only if you have a subscription to the Daily Telegraph.

70s surely would have allowed it, it was the time of sex liberation, and on the photograph there are only very small children, I can't imagine it being offensive. Here you may read about naked swimming at Manchester Grammar School, which lasted into 70s since 1920s.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3622082/When-naked-school-swims-were-normal.html

Blimey! I think that a lot of posters here would have, sorry "would of"(!), been better not going to their P.E./Games lessons (which seemed to cause much grief anyway), but have extra English lessons instead. Then they wouldn't have had to teach themselves. There you are you see - two problems solved at once! ;) Don't know how they get me for the money....

I sympathise with "Nige" having read so much fiction in some of these replies here, but I cannot imagine why he thinks I would pretend to be a Frenchman - and reply to MYSELF! - isn't my English very good?.

I have very different views to him, and I would not have taken with amusement the idea of a teacher with wandering hand trouble touching my backside.

I can assure "Nige" and anyone else under the misapprehension that I post here under my own name which is a real one.

I think he’s Mr Dando, or Alan or half a dozen others…

I think Jean the frenchie is probably Maltamon from Pennsylvania.

https://www.meldrethhistory.org.uk/topics/education/a-history-of-meldreth-school-1960-1969/the-school-swimming-pool

In July 1964, Mr Harding sent a letter to parents requesting their help in raising £250 towards the cost of the school swimming pool. The swimming pool was delivered on 19th March 1965 and work started on its erection. The building of the pool was a collaborative effort. The senior children worked energetically after school preparing the site and painting the sides of the pool. With the help of parents the erection of the pool was completed in May and it was enclosed by a high wooden fence.

The children were able to use the pool during the Whitsun holiday from 6th to 14th June. A small pool belonging to the Mr Harding was also erected for the use of the smaller children. On 21st July 1965 Miss Bowen officially opened the pool and all the children became members of The Duckling Club and received their membership cards and had their swimming progress monitored. According to the school log book, “all children have the opportunity of one immersion per day at least “.

I was only at the school for a couple of years and really loved swimming, although Steve is right it was usually very cold! I am sure that as an 8 or 9 year old I remember boys and girls having to swim naked, but can’t remember if it was just the younger kids or the whole school! Anyone else remember ‘skinny dipping’?

https://www.meldrethhistory.org.uk/topics/education/a-history-of-meldreth-school-1970-1979/photographs-from-the-1970s

The school swimming pool, July 1972. Surely that wasn’t allowed!

I remember at skole in the 1960’s we had trips to the beach and we exercised and swam naked. We were embarrassed at first but got used to it.
I’ll see if I can find some school or uniform lists - I’ll enjoy looking at all the skole PE uniform requirements and posting them on here. Pardon my Engelsk but I use a Google translator.

I remember just after ze var ven us jungen vere made to strip in front of der professors before PE lessons. Ve vere only 10 jahr alt at ze time and ve wore only a small pair of shorts. Und der professors ordered us to strip for die showers afterwards. I velt vere uncomfortable.
Pardon me for mien Inglishe - I learn it from a buke.

I read other people’s messages such as Jean and see many other people protesting about der pe teachers - methinks that maybe they protest too much and that secretly they enjoy fantasising about their experiences. In fact I vonder how many herren keep writing under different aliases. Sad people! I vonder who Jean really is? Any guesses?

just a few more comments

There was a difference between Pe teachers and the other teachers as regards how they called u or talk to us.

The Pe teachers were generally using our first names to call a boy or talk to him while the other teachers never did it, they used only the family name.

It created a more familiar link between Pe teachers and boys.
I find it was normal between it was not the same relation than with other teachers : they could see us more privately when we changed in Pe clothes or when we undressed for showers and even when we were wearing shorts or a swimsuit, it was different of the other teachers.
They were also supposed to learn boys hygiene and manly attitudes and so on ..

But as students we might talk to all teachers including Pe teachers by calling them"Sir"
Except those who were on a sport team, we normally did not know the first names of the Pe teachers and if we knew them we could not use them.

I am sorry for a lot of mistakes in the message below
here it is again for the first part without most of the mistakes

"You are right Allan
Now a Pe teacher cannot kick the butt of a student boy, it is no more allowed normally even it is not a strong kick.

At my time it was not written that it was allowed in the status of the school but it was admitted as long as it did not hurt really the boy student and it was practiced only by some Pe teachers, not all, rather the older ones who were often former sergeants at the army.

It was practiced only when a student was wearing his trouser or a Pe short, not when he was naked for showering.
Instead of a kick on the ass, a slap on the buttocks was always possible. Since it was not bare ass, it was not harmful, just a way to recall a student that he might listen to the instructions or keep silence and be obedient.

When we were changing in the locker room, if we were naked or semi naked in just briefs, or at the entrance and the exit of the shower room when we were naked, some of the Pe teacher used to give to us a slap on the buttocks if they thought it necessary but they never give to us a kick on the ass when we were naked. I presume that it was because it could be too much harmful on bare ass ".

You are right Allan
Now a Pe teacher cannot kick the butt of a student boy, it is no more allowed normally even it is not a strong kick.

At my time it was written that it was allowed in the status of the school but it was admitted as long as it did not hurt really the boy student and it was practiced only by some Pe trachers, not all, rather the older ones who were often former sergeants at the army.
It was practiced only when a tudent was wearing his trouser or a Pe short, not when he was naked for showering.
Instead of a kick on the ass, a slap on the buttocks was always possible. Since it was not bare ass, it was not harmful, just a way to recall the student that he might listen to the instructions or keep silence and be obedient.

When we were changing in the locker room, if we were naked or semi naked in just brief or at the entrance and the exit of the shower room when we were naked, some of the Pe teacher used to give to us a slap on the buttocks if they thought it necessary but a kick on the ass bever happened when we were naked. I presume that it was because it could be more harmful. on bare ass.

And I want to add also that unlike some of the you in the messages, I have never seen a Pe teacher taking naked a shower with us, they supervised our shower time more or less closely but never came under a shower head with us.

As regards the check of showers, it was depending on teachers, some were very strict about them, other did not care how we did for showers.
I remember that one of them in 7th grade ot 8th grade told to us at the first lesson that the showers were part of the lesson, that it was important for good health and hygiena and it would be compulsory, that we might have at each lesson a soap and a towel to dry and that he would not tolerate that one boy tried to escape to the shower time and also that he would check how we showered to be sure that we washed correctly all our body and he did itreally on the first lessons standing at the door of the showers to watch us during the showers and giving us instructions how to use the soap while others Pe teachers stayed in the locker room without looking at us during the shower.
Normally since we were not instructed to remove our briefs under the shorts during Pe lessons we were told to come with a new brief to put it after the lesson once we were dried rather than to put again a sweaty brief, it was good sense.

So I don't think that we were submitted to kind of "dictator"s as Pe teachers, just some more strict about rules than others.

Jean the Frenchie: You wrote:

"he was only allowed to give to students a kick on their buttocks if they needed it,"


ONLY???

Perhaps not in France, but in Britain it seems many rather dubious characters got themselves jobs as PE teachers - until recently there were few, if any, CRB checks , if such teachers were to practice on today's boys what some of them did to us, would find themselves in severe trouble and would undoubtbly lose their jobs.

I would also put it to to you that even in France a kicking teacher these days would also find himself in hotwater.

It is just not acceptable these days.

I will not rehearse my reasons here for taking a hard line, but believe me, our teacher and several others I have heard about were very odd characters indeed. Dictatorial bullies at best.

to "Allan"

Of course it is different when it is an instruction to be bare chest which might be complied and if you are bare chest volontarily, I understand that but I don't understand why some boys ( men today who recalls of that situation ) were so embarrassed to be bare chest when they were students.
On a beach all males are bare chest, in a swimming pool also, also at a school physical examination in group in the waiting room of course, so why was it so bad to give such an instruction.

And like some have said, on the photo of the gym of Burnley grammar school, I notice that the boys who are bare chest seem to be happy to do gym in that way ...

Of course, I understand that it was different when like it was in some british schools the weather was cold and boys had to be bare chest under instruction nevertheless and even outside of a gym. It was normally according to the Pe teacher to toughen them but I disagree with that method and I understand perfectly why some who have known that instruction when they were students have a bad memory of that time of school .

Same for corporal punishments, they were forbidden at school in the 60's in France at state middle and high schools ( may be they were still practiced in private schools, I don't know? ) and I think that it was a good decision.
The only teacher who could touch a boy was the Pe teacher but not to give us a spanking or to use caning, he was only allowed to give to students a kick on their buttocks if they needed it, for instance by being too late to follow his instructions or being unruly or rowdy or talking too loud and too much or running when it was not allowed ( around a swimmming pool for instance ) and so on .., it did not hurt really, it was just a warning to listen his instructions and folllow them ( of course it was not a written rule in the status of the school, it was just implicit)
He could also give to the students a slap on their buttocks when they were naked at the entrance or at the exit of the shower if they were too much late or rowdy or at the locker room after undressing if they were inobedient or too much reluctant to undress quickly for showering. Some Pe teachers were well known for slapping the buttocks of boys ( never the face ), very often and without good reasons to do it, obviously just because they liked to slap buttocks of boys to show them that they were in charge and had a total control on them if they wanted ( but it was always only one or two slaps never a real spanking ), others used slapping very seldomly just when it appeared to be necessary.
The other teachers could never give slaps , even on trousers.
It was a great difference.

And at my time when a boy student forgot his Pe kit, he was given a short or a swimsuit and if necessary a shirt and sport shoes by the Pe teacher (which sometimes were very old and not very adjusted but it was better than to do Pe in underwears, even just a swimsuit was better because it was colored in blue ). It was for Pe lesson inside a gym.
It happened only with one Pe teacher one year school in 10th grade who was more strict than the others and had warned us that after two times of coming without Pe kit, a boy had to undress until brief to do the lesson, it happened sometimes at the beginning of the year school with that teacher for a few of boys to do Pe inside the gym in just briefs but after a few lessons everybody had understood that he was not joking and that it was embarrassing to do Pe in just briefs, so all students had their Pe kit.

So I agree with the complains about instruction for boy's students to be bare chest when the weather was bad and to give corporal punishments or to do Pe in underwears or naked as a punishment for those who forgot their gym clothes but otherwise, I don't see why it was not normal even in mixed class. Some are talking of double standard but it was really normal that girls in a mixed class were allowed always to keep their shirts because it was not the same for a girl to be bare chest since she had nipples, and it was considered as indecent even for the yoiunger ones.