Burnley Grammar School

Skins v shirts. Free choice, what would you choose to be?

Nick - I find your comment quite interesting and sensible. I was introduced to compulsory shirtless p.e. in the last year of primary school. It seemed very grown up after having to wear our underwear vest and pants for p.e. - except for the two boys in my class who never wore vests. The object was to get us used to shirtless p.e. before we went on to secondary school - a very good intention, I think. I agree it's a shame some people will see something they don't like about your photo

Nick thanks for sharing your school photo. I read the comment you noted from another man who asked what kind of school didn't let the boys wear their shirts. When people ake comments like that they seem to forget they are looking back in time, it's all past history now. He comments like it from now, not 1972.

It was interesting to see how boys the same age all looked quite different sizes there, but that's quite normal at that age, as any PE teacher would know. You certainly looked in good shape for your age.

Mel - You've got to admit that it would be quite strange to clam up about doing shirtless PE after doing it for more than two years wouldn't it. If he's done it for that long and is admitting it's no problem then it's safe to say he's got over the issue quite well and in the end I think that's a good thing.

Stella - You're not being an over protective mum at all in my book. You're just being a good mum and thoughtful. But I don't think you ever needed to feel concerned about your son at school in those days going shirtless. We all did it believe me. I swam the swimming gala at school in front of parents once too. There was a lot of standing about in very revealing small and tight wet trunks at that, worse than shorts I assure you.

I do like reading what the teachers say on here and knowing that they are taking on board ex pupils views, espcially the ones still at the job. There's one here from Yorkshire, no name given but I was surprised to read you sounding so concerned about your own school kit requirement for the summer term time. Isn't it meant to be the boys in school PE that fret about teacher telling them to go shirtless, not the teacher fretting about whether to tell them to. That's a bit upside down! You know your guys best of course, do you really think a majority of them would be scared or far too anxious and nervous if you told them to remove tops for PE and bare their upper bodies for a while? I think you may find most are not as concerned as you might imagine they are. As I just said in my case, many schools do things for parents that might involve boys being shirtless, but it's only the parents, they're all used to seeing their sons I should hope and think. There's nothing to hide from your own parents is there, or any other parents really. Swimming gave me a lot of confidence about my ability and the way I looked.

I think boys are generally wired the same whether it's 2024 or 1964 aren't they.

When you're at school you generally look up to your teachers as if they can do no wrong, or in some cases mock them behind their backs. For a year in the 80s when I had a young German exchange teacher doing PE with us he met every single stereotype you could imagine, and not one of our Brit PE teachers could match him for his determination when it came to his enforcement of bare chests for PE among the boys. He took us in the gym with boys in our bare chests but we also went outside for athletics in when the warmer weather came in our bare chests with him with girls taking part with us. The Brit teachers didn't do this, just this young German exchange teacher who was allowed to do it even though nobody else ever did when we did athletics outside. He was amazingly strict on everyone having a shower and later in life I now understand why he used to make a big deal about us bringing our towels and using them.

A lot of PE teachers seem to play up to the typical PE stereotype, like they feel they have to do it. A bit like football managers do. But my German PE teacher not only played up to a typical PE teacher stereotype but his actual nationality stereotype too, strict, humourless and obsessed with getting our clothes off. I laugh now, how can you not. So many people still years later seem to take their school PE classes so seriously. Most of us are better served by looking back at our school years forced through the rigours of PE with a smile at most of it.

It's very nice to see your comments and quite nice picture there Nick. I appreciate when some people come on and add some extra detail to their comments like where they went to school and old photo's like yours really do say a thousand words don't they. My son has been at school in Daventry and doing a shirtless PE lesson for the past two and a half years now, it happens about once a fortnight in the school gym. I don't think there is any opposite sex involvement that I know of in his case. He was never too keen at first and when I said something here a couple of months ago I was thinking about whether I should bring the matter up, having thought about it for a while but I've come to the decision not to do so having spoken again to my own 14 year old son about it after I wrote about our own thoughts on this a few weeks ago here, in March. He didn't want me to say anything when I said something and now says it doesn't matter to him anyway. I thought I'd let him see some of the old days comments on here and he sat reading for ages. I don't think he feels quite so hard done by now! As long as he's happy then I'm happy and if he accepts things then good. Like most parents, if your child is bothered by something then you are bothered.

Comment by: Sean on 30th April 2024 at 22:21


"Comment by: Cole on 30th April 2024 at 17:31

Plenty of questions but what about you, is that something that you relate to then?

I would not have cared one bit about any of the girls I was in school with seeing me stripped down to my shorts alone. I would have liked to be seen........."


Sean, clearly you were one of those kids who liked to display themselves - a real Jack the lad - every school, every class, had their brash show-off, fair enough, but clearly you have no empathy for, nor understanding of, lads who were the opposite to yourself.

If anyone believes that girls are not capable of causing offence or embarrassment, I suggest you take a trip on a bus at chucking out time at schools in the afternoons. We have two schools on the route to Romford - one an "academy" no less, and the coarse vulgarity of their girls (both mixed schools, as most are these days), has to be heard to be believed. I don't often have occasion to travel at that time, but last time I did, the driver had to tell one loud mouthed girl to stop vaping. The language - not to mention the racism - was appalling. She didn't stop, and she stunk the bus out. She was accompanied by a group of equally vulgar females, none of them over 14 and all of them swearing like navvies.

Just shows, I suppose, yet another conceit of the education industry, who thinks that a word like "academy" makes them "better". I doubt the teachers, when they leave their ivory tower for the day, would ever think of using anything as common as a bus!. They would have a shock if they did. Tread carefully, lest you tread on their dreams.

To Adam Donovan, Cole, Sean and anyone else interested in this. I don't have anything for secondary school but can provide some picture evidence of my own primary school taken in the early 70s when I was a pupil at The Grove School in Frimley, Surrey. I have a photograph on the local history of Camberley Facebook site taken in 1972 which rather finely shows the boys and girls on the school PE cross country running team at that time with our presentation cup. Most of us are ten and eleven years old in the photo. I am fifth from the right immediately behind the girl with the cup.

The boys at school would run with either white shorts or full length tracksuit bottoms, and we never wore a top when we did PE at this school or when we did running and Mr Atkins our teacher made sure of that. Boys didn't do shirts for PE at Grove and were not allowed to. Quite unusual because this is often thought of as secondary school stuff so I suppose we got stuck into it early in my case. My school uniform list, now a very yellowing piece of type written paper, at Grove mentions boys PE and said it straight - 'The boys will do PE in bare chest and shorts'. We wore running shoes/plimsolls outside, inside it was nothing on our feet. As you will be able to see we are mixed with the girls and we even had our photo taken with no shirts on. Someone who I don't know has even made a comment asking what kind of school this was that didn't allow us to wear shirts or tops of any sort. Well it was how it was at the time in the 1970s for boys. It was also another primary school that had full showering facilities for everyone there and made everyone, boys and girls use them properly, so I was taking school communal showers in the nude from the age of eight with everyone else at that time because that's what was expected to be done when PE was over. Photo's like this also went into the local press pages at the time quite readily and this one was no exception. School achievements were often lauded like this locally.

I do hope this photo comes out with the link so you can see for yourselves and if you've got anything to say I'd like to hear (read) it. It's a shame some people will look at this and see something they don't like about it. It's just a nice school memory to me.

https://www.facebook.com/camberleymemories/photos/a.1546972158849342/2613441038869110/?type=3

One for "A Yorkshiredad".

I want to address your concerns.

I think you have said you have a summer term PE kit that is shirtless at your school for the last couple of years if I understand right, and that you have been wondering what to do if you do some kind of performance during the summer term and if you should continue to use the summer term PE kit or not. My advice to you would be to just go for it with that same PE kit if it is the summer term kit you require at your school.

Tomorrow is May Day, May 1st. When I was at school during the 1970's every May Day, or the closest school day in May to May 1st would be a day when the boys and girls at my primary school danced around the Maypole for all the parents out on the playground. You'd often get up to a couple of hundred parents show up to watch. At my own primary school the boys always took PE lessons in our school hall in our barechested. The boys practiced the Maypole in PE barechested too, alongside the girls. Then when it came to doing the Maypole dancing properly out on the school playground we went out and all the boys did it just the same as we did PE, danced the Maypole in our bare chests for our parents. I did this three times like that myself, at the age of 9, again at 10 and yet again when I was 11.

It seemed quite a popular day when we did this and we all seemed alright. I don't even remember anyone making mention of the way we were turned out, it was conseidered a normal boys look to present like that I suppose and we associated it as an extension of PE anyway.

Comment by: Cole on 30th April 2024 at 17:31

Plenty of questions but what about you, is that something that you relate to then?

I would not have cared one bit about any of the girls I was in school with seeing me stripped down to my shorts alone. I would have liked to be seen. It's so strange this to me, as you are not as likely to get many boys feeling concerned if they were having to share swimming lessons with girls but it becomes a bigger deal when doing the gym instead even though if you did that in shorts alone you looked just the same as you would have on a swimming lesson. Perhaps wet bare chests just look better or something.

I saw two boys after school hours today down our local recreation ground about five o'clock and they had both taken their tops off and gone bare chested to make a couple of goal posts on the ground and one was rather podgy to put it bluntly and only about twelve years old. I hope with boys like that in PE nowadays they are encouraged to lose the weight and that it's not seen as off limits to dare to tell them they are too big for their age when they clearly are. Obviously this boy I saw had no concerns about what he looked like at all, it's great to not be self conscious but you should still care what you look like and quite overweight boys at twelve years old definitely need to be made aware and pay attention.

Adam Donovan,

What did the girls wear in these mixed lessons? How old were you when you were no longer subjected to these lessons?

Besides that comment from Rachel you recounted, how did the girls embarrass the shy boys or play you up for reactions? What "deeply personal stuff" did the girls say to the boys and did the teachers ever overhear them say it?

You said the girls thought boys were "fair game to be touched", can you recount any incidents in particular? What did the girls do and did the staff ever see them do it?

Have you been surprised how little direct feedback you have had over your time teaching Nathan on the kind of things that pop up on here? Personally to you I mean. Parents have a reputation nowadays for making more of a fuss about things than they once used to, and with various outlets on social media to let off steam that becomes even easier for some of them.

Grammar school in 1963. A brief spell doing boxing practice in the physical education class. All were strongly encouraged to take part. At one point we were knocking seven bells out of each other. Lots of bloody noses and things like that. Someone piped up asking if we were allowed to actually go for a knockout. The answer was no. None of the boys were really naturally aggressive types, we got encouraged to bring out aggression in a controlled manner I suppose. It didn't last long. None of us missed it. Proper athletics was far more useful. I've been lifelong anti boxing since doing that briefly at school.

Comment by: Ray on 26th April 2024 at 20:33
Chris A, you said "We shared with girls once a week and that was hell."
Why? Did the girls do anything that made it hell?




What Chris said rather rings a bell with me in the midst of this discussion on goings on in PE lessons in schooldays of the past when boys often had to take the class fully shirtless because their PE teacher said so. My PE teachers all said so in my case too from the age of 12 upwards. At my school we had one mixed sex class each week and one all boys class during my first two years taken most times by two female PE staff. I was twelve in 1984 when this started and boys kit for school PE was never to wear shoes or socks and never to wear any type of top, either a vest or t-shirt.

It's not just men that make boys go shirtless at secondary school, women did it too, let me make that quite clear. For some reason people always assume that boys get taken by the men and girls by the women but that was not the case where I went for a couple of years.

In our school gym boys were only given the choice of some black shorts or....some black shorts to put on. Even that was policed, so we were not allowed to wear what was deemed baggy style shorts, they had to be a regular pair of proper shorts by mid eighties standards of that time, which weas not baggy in any way or very long. They came nowehere near the knee for example.

Self consciousness was rife. Girls piled on the pressure and anxiety. So when Chris A says sharing with girls was hell, I think I know what he might mean. For example, I'd get comments directed at me about how hot my shirtless body looked from a couple of girls and naively believed they meant it. But they didn't really. There was some deeply personal stuff said by some of them about boys bodies. Boys never threw back comments about girls in the same way. I was told that stick and stones breaking bones but words never hurting and all that, but are you kidding me! Hanging around gym a girl called Rachel once collared me with the observance, 'your nipples look weird' quite out of the blue. As soon as I look down at my chest it became comedy value.

I wasn't alone in that, this was the practical goings on shirtless boys sharing PE lessons at school with girls in a secondary class at twelve or thirteen had to put up with. There's another thing I want to say as well on this. In such classes where boys share with girls but the boys are not wearing much more than shorts some girls play up for you to get reactions out of you and even think you are fair game for being touched.

In my opinion it was never a good idea to mix girls with boys in PE at all in the first place at secondary school, even less so with a bunch of shirtless boys with them which was very obviously an undeniable distraction for some of them. I'm not especially shy myself but felt uncomfortable many times. I saw examples of girls who would laser in on shy boys in class and delight in making them embarrassed for fun. Because we had some female staff take our gym lessons they always seemed to be more on side with the firls in the class who could do no wrong. Anything that ever seemed to spark off was always the fault of one of the boys.

If you was to ask every boy I was at school doing PE with when I was twelve or thirteen years old I think most would say we didn't want to share with the girls and would have at least some small story to tell about being on the receiving end of personal comments about looks and bodies from them, just because there were a lot of us around them and we could all be seen for what we were.

If you never shared such a mixed lesson in this way you'll probably never quite understand.

You settle arguments using your brain and your tongue, not your fists.

To use boxing with the approval of teaching staff as a means to settle scores between schoolboys seems unorthodox. Did it work in this case?

With regard to Charles' comment on the 25th April, I can say that boxing was gradually being phased out at my school, by the time I arrived in the early 1960s.

However, even years later, boxing was still very occasionally, used as a 'safer' means to settle arguments between boys, and these lunchtime bouts attracted enthusiastic audiences.

Did anyone who had a last period PE lesson at school get allowed to just leave school and walk home in their PE kit sometimes? Lads at our school could do that in the summer term if we wanted and had the last period PE. When I was 15 in 1979 it was great walking out the gates going home like that, some would stick the PE tops around the waist and bravely go after a few wolf whistles from groups of girls on purpose. We had a lad I remember at taht age who had managed to grow about three dark hairs on the middle of his chest and thought it made him God's gift to girls. The PE teacher that let us leave school in our kits and do that was thought of as rather a cool dude at the time. The others made us shower and change back into blazers which was a drag as we'd be taking it all back off within a few minutes again anyway. My mate had a house right beside the school gates and this was a real pain to him.

A Yorkshiredad, my suggestion for you would be to ask them about it, involve them in your decision making. Do you want your class to have the same appearance? If so then clearly you are going to have to decide one way or the other. Put it to a vote of hands for that occasion if it takes place and you do some type of presentation. If it's not important everyone has the same appearance then allow those who wish to remain in their summer PE kit, without top, to do so, and those who wish to wear something to do that.

If you do have a summer PE kit at school that implies just shorts wearing, no top, and then feel the need to wear tops for a presentation does that not make it appear there is something wrong with doing PE like that in the first place though?

In my case if I was to do a theoretical PE display of some sort with a family audience I would allow a free choice on what to wear because quite simply put at our school we mix it up a lot, although the bare chest part of PE is the minority time, just now and again. Mostly we have tops, often forgotten it seems when I come on here and write. But if our school had a permanent bare chested PE uniform I would see it as somehwat strange to suddenly begin dressing up for any gym work we might display and would continue as we do normally at school in that case.

Yorkshiredad, you wrote about an upcoming parent open day. Is this subject something you would feel able to openly bring up yourself to any parent or would you wait for a comment first? I certainly don't think you should be overly concerned about shirtless PE. But if you are, take a leaf out of my recent book and take a quick vote on it with the boys and see what happens. A few slips of paper and a shoe box was all it took with our lot to find out most, three quarters of boys were fine with being asked to do so, and the other quarter accepted the result.

If it had been the other way around then yes we would have reconsidered and likely stopped come September. That would have been my decision.

Yorkshiredad, going back to the parents, in ten years I have not had one single parent comment to me or raise an issue on occasional bare chests in PE lessons taking place. That's a lot of sons passing through the classes in that time and a lot of parents. Just two seprate parents have ever questioned me regards school showering expectations at open nights in ten years, and neither actually objected outright to that either, just wanted reassurances on the requirement policy of them at school. One of these parents simply wanted to know about privacy concerns and mobile phones for example in such an area - these are banned outright.

Now Alan, you've said many things and I know I am unlikely to win you over. But you might like to know about a class I took on Friday morning last week. One of our circuit training fitness hours with the Year 8's. A morning often taken bare chests each time we do it. Well I took a different approach and began with saying, 'Shirts off as usual if you want, or if not you can decide'. I noticed most boys carried on the same in a bare chest while changing and those others who hesitated followed suit and the whole class without one exception came to PE as usual, all bare chests when given an option to do otherwise. I'm prepared to admit there was probably peer pressure but the choice was given in that case. An interesting quiet little experiment and they didn't even know why I did it and it gave me an interesting answer. Another class might give another answer. I also think that because these boys have all been doing PE with each other for a while now and from time to time done it like this then most would not have seen the point in changing tack now.

I'd also like to just remind the forum that 4 in 5 PE classes are not involving any bare chest element at any point, other than brief required showering at the end.

A little bit of amusement for those who faced the shirts versus skins pick.

Anyone remember reactions like these?

Diary Of A Wimpy Kid - Shirts vs Skins.

https://youtu.be/xMte16v_71I?feature=shared

Comment by: Neil on 28th April 2024 at 11:37

"What some of these gentleman like Jack are saying is not so much about what individual schools are doing in the current year we are in but more about a general attitude to the style of PE once commonplace, that's all isn't it."

Well, lets' be charitable, Neil. Perhaps Jack and the man who likes "compulsion", (Clive) are just of that mindset that thinks because I had to do it, they so-and-so should as well. I still think that is a mean spirited notion, especially as so many people on this board as adults have made it clear they felt awkward at school because of that ludicrous shirtless rule, but I think it ill-becomes older gents obsessing about lads running round with no tops on. However, Jack did express his delight when he heard that one current school is still submitting their pupils to this unnecessary practice, so perhaps you are a little too charitable. The "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir" attitude of ex Grammar school types has always irritated me.


A Yorkshire Dad: "Aesthetic" reasons?. Crisp white shirts look more pleasing to the eye. There are times you begin to wonder if the 21st century has even started in the dusty world of PE teachers and sports coaches.

Thank you for your post Stella it was very interesting, it would be great to hear from more mums on this site. My own school will be having a parent's open day in a couple of months and I expect some sort of PE display in the hall will be requested. Now that the boys are wearing just their shorts only summer term kit the question would be whether to use that kit or return to wearing the polo t-shirts worn for most of the year. I think you might have decided the issue for me.

Alan, in reply to Stella you made the comparison to army practice but I think it would be more appropriate here to consider what boys gymnastics clubs sometime choose to do at displays. A quick search of Youtube confirmed the practice of performing bare chested. A video from Heathrow gymnastics club just 5 years old.

https://youtu.be/H19Dxz6bHO4?si=O5LYlm-ipsoXIo_V

The club has posted other videos where unitards or costumes are worn by the boys so I am sure the choice of bare chests was done for aesthetic reasons by the coach. Dont you agree this is a more appropriate comparison to Stella's experience Alan rather than the army.

What some of these gentleman like Jack are saying is not so much about what individual schools are doing in the current year we are in but more about a general attitude to the style of PE once commonplace, that's all isn't it.

Comment by: Clive on 27th April 2024 at 22:46


"Well said Jack. A few more pro-bare chest physical education comments are welcome to hear, and compulsion is always the best way to deliver such outcomes."


Another candidate for a one way ticket to China or North Korea - do as you are told - or else!. They just love your sort.

A sickening comment to make in 2024

Clive - another grammar school boy perhaps?

There are some very strange men around......

Comment by: Jack on 27th April 2024 at 16:40


"Comment by: Stuart on 27th April 2024 at 07:34
A boys grammar school near me still do cross country in the summer stripped to the waist (vests in winter). All the boys are bare chested, so it must be compulsory for ever class/run.



"........Excellent to hear this..........."

.........A normal activity being seen as exceptional now. From 1959-61 my grammar school put the boys out on the cross country in our bare chests all year round without a personal say on if we wished to cover or not. We obeyed the masters instructions to the letter and were only twelve, thirteen or fourteen years old........ It might seem quite abnormal now to be made to run like that outside in less than favourable conditions but they were trying to turn boys like me into men who had some stamina about us. It worked for the most part. Never heard a negative peep out of anyone about it.......


Why is it "excellent" to hear this?. You are now a man in your ?70s, why should what boys wear in 2024 concern you so much,, Jack?.

If I may say so, grammar school boys, always thought they were "better" than state schoolboys, and of course nobody complained, because as you have already told us "We obeyed the masters instructions to the letter ". That is why so many joined the Civil Service. They love obeying orders, even into middle age and beyond.

"Just obeying orders" is still the watchword in countries which do not welcome or value democracy. Better to think for yourself. I am very glad I wasn't grammar school yes-man fodder.

As regards "turning boys into men" - firefighters and policemen don't find it necessary to conduct their work without shirts on. Are they "boys" or "men"?

Well said Jack. A few more pro-bare chest physical education comments are welcome to hear, and compulsion is always the best way to deliver such outcomes. You shouldn't be scared of your own body!

Wearing a vest is almost the same as being shirtless. I'm not sure I can work your logic out there on that one Dave.

My comprehensive school gym kit was vests which were not worn much of the time. I think there is a clear difference. I've never heard of a single boy and no men have come on here bemoaning the fact that they were made to wear vests for gym class at school.

"Comment by: Mark on 27th April 2024 at 15:24
Dave you said - 'Being in a vest is almost shirtless. It is almost the same.'

Disagree with you here. Massive dfference. I like wearing a decent looking smart casual vest over summer because I'm slim to average size and going about like that on the best days is comfortable for me, but there is no way I would do the same things I do wearing a vest, such as going around shops etc if I was completely shirtless and I wouldn't wish to do so, I would feel different and maybe judged more. I save that for the garden mostly."

I meant wearing a vest or being shirtless is almost the same for PE and intensive exercise. Going to a store or to other places in every day life is a very different thing. What is the purpose of vests for PE? Well they are far better than T-shirt for exrercices and much better choice by a PE teacher but what is the function for any shirt for very intensive exersice for PE?

Comment by: Stuart on 27th April 2024 at 07:34
A boys grammar school near me still do cross country in the summer stripped to the waist (vests in winter). All the boys are bare chested, so it must be compulsory for ever class/run.



Excellent to hear this.

A normal activity being seen as exceptional now. From 1959-61 my grammar school put the boys out on the cross country in our bare chests all year round without a personal say on if we wished to cover or not. We obeyed the masters instructions to the letter and were only twelve, thirteen or fourteen years old. We were saved from the coldest days and only did the milder ones but it was still damned fresh as we ran sometimes. Boys bodies in those days did not contain much excess fat content, we were all quite thin really with marathon runner type shapes before filling out. It might seem quite abnormal now to be made to run like that outside in less than favourable conditions but they were trying to turn boys like me into men who had some stamina about us. It worked for the most part. Never heard a negative peep out of anyone about it. Inside the school gymnasium it was the regular standard to always go bare chests too at all times while I was at grammar school.

Dave you said - 'Being in a vest is almost shirtless. It is almost the same.'

Disagree with you here. Massive dfference. I like wearing a decent looking smart casual vest over summer because I'm slim to average size and going about like that on the best days is comfortable for me, but there is no way I would do the same things I do wearing a vest, such as going around shops etc if I was completely shirtless and I wouldn't wish to do so, I would feel different and maybe judged more. I save that for the garden mostly.

Wes - 23/04 2247

I went to school in the late 60's/early 70's - and when we changed for PE/cross country we always had to line up in kit waiting for permission to enter the gym or start the run. Again in full view of the rest of the school.

Our PE kit was only white shorts (no shirts, bare feet), and our cross country kit was white shorts, plimsolls (no shirts/vests - even in winter).

I don't think anyone actually hated this all, anyway it was "normal" for the whole school and we had no choice.

Ross - 25/04 1747

A boys grammar school near me still do cross country in the summer stripped to the waist (vests in winter). All the boys are bare chested, so it must be compulsory for ever class/run