Burnley Grammar School

We had coloured bibs or sashes to differentiate between teams in the summer.

Outside in the winter we wore the reversible rugby shirts.

Hi Greg,
Don't really understand why your class put vests on in the first place to go to the playing field if there was a chance you'd all be taking them off immediately! Surely more logical to make it clear beforehand if the kit was only shorts?
We were told vests or skins at the start of the lesson, before we went into the gym. That way when you were picked as skins you just took off your vest and left it in the changing room.

Out on the playing field we went out wearing vests. Then you were picked as either as skin's or vests or all the class stripped to the waist. In the gym the majority of the time was spent bare chested but occasionally we played basketball as skin's vs vests. X country, inter house boxing we stripped off for. Fitness and basketball your house was either were vests for the first half with you stripping off at half time to become skin's for the second half and vice versa

This recording shows that it was the norm for British boys to go nude even in public space, that's why naked swimming in schools was plausible back then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptqy1N0Z_kk

The clip from Steven matches quite well my own mixed gym lessons in the 80's, although our gym and our sports hall were much posher and brighter looking. The one notable difference is that at my school in our mixed midweek morning gym class the girls had to wear plimsolls or equivalent on their feet yet none of the boys were ever allowed to come into the gym in anything other than our bare feet during a lesson. This double standard annoyed me as well as baffling me, especially as I was very self conscious with nothing on my feet. If anyone can come up with any rational explanation for this then I'd like to hear it.

Steven, great video and not too dissimilar from my own PE lessons us boys were shirtless and barefoot for all PE whilst the girls were allowed a top

Michael, You are probably right about unsuitable and ill-prepared teachers just after World War 2,, some probably suffering from then-undiagnosed mental health problems, like PTSD, however, that doesn't explain - still less excuse - some of the dregs coming out of teacher training college in the 1960s and 1970s, who would have been teaching in the 70s and 80s, probably into the 1990s. For a lot of them, they felt the pupils was a major inconvenience to endure before they got their monthly pay cheque.

Everybody is different. Some need that 'push' in order to achieve their best, whereas others don't.

A good-humoured and carefully-judged degree of 'assertive encouragement' at the right time, may well unlock latent ability in the less confident pupil. This is when inspired teaching makes such a difference.

Sadly, such teachers were in short supply following WW2, with many vacancies being filled by hurriedly-trained ex-forces personnel.

Steven, I agree shorts only is a sensible policy when it comes to gymnastics. That's what the boys wore when we did gymnastics at school and it seems to be a fairly standard training uniform for boys at gymnastics clubs, even those who compete at a high level.
With that said, I would have found it weird if we'd been required to do all PE activities in bare chests and bare feet. Hardly seems logical for running, or football or whatever.

In the 1960s it was normal for boys to do PE stripped to the waist and barefoot

Steve: "Pissed off" not passed off. I loathe injustice and to me treating girls with kid gloves and the boys with a cane and a regime like national servicemen endured in the 1950s.

Of course I didn't want to be "treated like a girl" - I just think that equality means treating everybody with the same respect, regardless of sex.

If you felt a sense of "achievement and pride" by running round like that - well, with all due respect it seems to set the bar for pride v ery low.

There a still schools that have a sensible shorts-only policy for PE. This video showing a gym display in a Spanish school in front of a large audience and all the boys wear what must be their standard PE uniform: white shorts bare chests and bare feet. What do boys need a shirt for in PE anyway?
https://youtu.be/FO7jR9cK-HY?t=152

Hi Alan, and thank you for your sensible reply. I also agree with what you say, but do now believe that we’ve become slightly neurotic regarding how we rear children today, to the extent that there’s almost no trust left in society. This doesn’t really help anyone in the end, including the childen! I’ve noticed in general that there seems to be an almost incapabilty to settle on a balanced point of view; everything seeming to be either one extreme or the other! Anyway, thankfully it’s probable that such situations I mentioned could no longer take place today, and that we can only regret the naivety and sillyness of those in charge in the past.

I do remember my Gym and Games master at secondary school as being unnecessary sadistic; being far too handy with the slipper given any opportunity to use it….this included on me once! in my last year at junior school, the boys football coach was a woman, where I was captain and top goalscorer! She was really a wonderful and characterful teacher, but I have often wondered from past memories, about her private inclinations!

"A sense of achievement and pride" is not a widely held experience I felt or discerned from others at my school in similar circumstances to you Steve. Far from it. Half the class would have kitted up properly given half a chance when we did so much that didn't need to be done in just shorts. Like you, I was sent out barechested in wet weather to run during the spring/summer and early autumn months but forgive me wondering about a school that would send any pupils out on a snowy winter day with a snow covering with nothing on their feet at all as a matter of policy other than there being a sadistic disgraceful PE teacher overstepping the mark. There can be no defence for that if authentic. That is called abuse, simple as that. I doubt you'd tolerate a child of your own being sent out like that and put up with it.

TomB - I did not have a particularly bad time in school, despite the experiences I've mentioned, just a few isolated incidents, but I did think that you came terribly close to almost defending a bullying culture. Nobody needs bullying as a kind of life lesson for the future.

Hi Alan,
Having done myself PE in a mixed secondary in the eighties in shorts only, I fail to see what could have caused you to feel "passed off". Is it that you wanted to be treated like a girl??? To us, exercising shirtless and barefoot even in rain and snow gave us a sens of achievement and pride.

Greg/Greg2: I have to say I entirely agree with you and all you say. I am sure there are a great number of fantasies disclosed on this site, with some very strange kinky ideas - usually centered round nudity, near nudity and /or obsessive thoughts about physical punishment.

I am equally sure a great number of schoolteachers are either homosexual or lesbian, and, I am sorry to say, in more deferential and innocent times, used their positions of power to frankly indulge themselves. I am sure our games master had some very unhealthy thoughts running through his head.

I also agree that girls, probably to this day, are treated in a much kinder way than boys at school. Even in my time at school, which ended 1986/97, punishment was for boys "normal" which made me glad my school was single sex - I know at mixed schools even as late as that, boys were expected to wear minimal PE kit, while the girls were nicely done up and warm and comfortable - the injustice of that would have really pissed me off.

I am very glad that these days at least some attempt is made to ensure that teachers (and some older students) have their kinky ideas thwarted, and the pupils themselves are more aware of what is now termed "inappropriate" behaviour, and not afraid to speak out if they have concerns.

Having just posted my first post below, about reading comments from the beginning on this forum, I've just realised that there is already a Greg posting here. So, from now on I will change to Greg 2. Hopefully there isn't also a Greg 2 posting!

I’ve been reading some of the back pages of this site and can’t belive what I’ve read at times. I didn’t realise so much forced naked swimming went on for boys; especially in private schools, and seemingly, often coached by females! I remember reading somewhere of one boy aged 12 having extra help with tumbling turns by thier female coach. She even had him undress on the poolside each time, which he thought was rather odd, and not in the cubicle as usual. She was then was alone with this naked boy as she helped him roll over in the water! Unbeleavable. It also seems that other female teacher would often appear during 13 year old boys’ swimming classes to ask boys to come out of the water, hands by their sides, while they asked them questions! Elsewhere it was mentioned three women running a boys only cubs camp in the 70s, where they insisted boys run around with just t-shirts or pyjama tops after 7:00pm! Totally unecessay and obviously decided by these women for their own delectation.
It seems there have always been double standards; especially in the past with females feeling completely confident and socially comfortable with this situation. I’m sure in the past these females enjoyed and took advantage of this and took every opportunity to see the boys nudity when possible. Females are just as curious as males, and these women (and sometimes same age girls at swimming galas etc) would enjoy this opportunity, perhaps quietly with slight disbelief of this situation they find themselves in! I’ve worked in boys prep schools, and at times noticed what I always thought of as slightly strange female matrons. Often youngish women, and sometimes with a 16 year old (always female) school student who they would always select, to visit the school as a work experience trainee. These girls would always appeared at bath/shower time with a slightly embarrassed expesion, where there would always be some quite brazen and exhibitionist boys, with others more shy.
I’ve never understood why young developing boys sould be treated like cattle, while same age girls are always treated as sacred. Also, I do think there are a few strange male fantasies submitted here; though I’ve never understood why some males enjoy of the thought of boys being forced to be naked and humiliated in front of female staff, or even same age sisters at swimming galas etc. I just find it annoying and certainly abusive.

TimH: I think you could turn your question on it's head: how many men on here have gone on, at length, about the "good old days" when boys wore nothing but shorts, and they got a good old sweat on, and if they didn't they got a good old caning?. While it is clear some lads didn't care or wasn't bothered, we can see, if you read objectively, that a great number DID.

I would not go so far as to advocate swimming tops for boys, but many of us, in work we have done after school, have worked up a sweat, and it would have been inappropriate to use that as an excuse to take our shirts off. Everyone should be treated with respect (and little "respect" was given to boys in my time at school) and nobody should be forced to do anything they are not comfortable with, even if this deprives some old games master of his cheap thrills.

A question to Mr Dando ... have you ever considered the views of the boys & girls concerned? Are they happy with what they're wearing?

It is time we ended topless PE in all education institutions including swimming lessons.

Such a travesty that boys are forced to wear skimpy swimming trunks and cannot even wear longer shorts. At a minimum boys should be allowed to wear rash vests and body suits like surfers wear on the beach.

I find it funny that schools are quite happy to force modesty on girls by stipulating they must wear one piece swimming suits and not bikini tops yet they continue to denigrate the modesty of males.

Here is just one offending institution: http://www.st-bernadettes.stockport.sch.uk/p-e-kit-and-swimming/

Swimming.
Swimming is a requirement of the Key Stage 2 National curriculum for P.E.

Swimming takes place on Wednesday afternoons at the Grand Central Pools in Stockport, and free transport from and to the school is provided.

Timetable.

Autumn Term – Class 4swimming
Spring Term – Class 5
Summer Term – Class 3
Equipment.

Boys must wear trunks, not shorts.

Girls must wear a swimming costume (not a bikini) and a swimming cap (available from the school office for £1)

Join my campaign for gender nuetrality in all school uniforms!

An evocative photo of a scene played out in a lot of schools. Bet those lads would be sweating at the end of the lesson.

I’m sorry you had such a bad time Danny, and I don’t want to make light of your experience but I don’t feel it is black and white.

I was the butt of jokes in school, banter and bullying and I agree there is no clear distinction. That said I do feel it is part of life.

The school bullying prepared me for the fact that life isn’t fair and we are programmed to exploit weakness in others.

The banter in my workplace is what makes the days fly by. I could probably have a handful of people sacked for it if I so desired but I know it was all meant in good humour.

You’ll never stop bullying because it’s human nature. Any head teachers that say “my school doesn’t have a bullying problem” are clearly blind to it. Schools should prepare children in every respect.

Louise, I am sorry you were shocked. Please bare this in mind - your dad, brothers and farm workers no doubt removed their clothing because they WANTED to. I don't suppose for a moment that your dad or whoever owned the farm FORCED them to - especially on cold days in November or January.

As I went to an all boys school, there was no temptation to gawp at girls in bikinis - nor would I have wanted to. I knew and know what the human body looks like, and I had other interests, which required study, which meant I was never tempted to buy The Sun, or top shelf magazines, or attend striptease.

I was just intrigued as to why you enjoyed viewing boys at school with no tops on, or why you relished "banter"

Alan, I'm genuinely shocked by the tone of your response. On my part there was no intent to offend. Saying I got an eyeful at home is at the the very least crude. If you think seeing my brothers, dad and the farm workers working topless is an eyeful you're wrong. They stripped down due the physical nature of their job. Have you ever stacked hay bales in barns, if you had you'd have known what it's like and it may change your perception of farm work It's a lot tougher than you'd imagine.

Jason32 you are right. I wasn't afraid of work in fact I still lamb ewes and calve cows skills I learned before I was 10. I'd always help whether it was working herding livestock, rolling fleeces during clipping you name it I did it. Though when it came to stacking bales I wasn't as quick as the others but I still lifted bales. Watching people take off their shirts or with there shirts off was par for the course.My brothers are 3 and 4 years older than me. I was more of an afterthought.

Alan, Jason summed it beautifully. If girls were wearing bikini tops you'd have been s little more interested at that age? It's the same for me. The chance to see other boys in my year group stripped down to the waist sweating and exercising in the gym was just that. Oh, I mentioned this to my hubby and he was also stripped off to the waist for his three recruitment fitness tests along with 14 other recruits, none of them thought it odd to be made to strip off. r wonder if that was too masculine?

No Tom, fun and especially the term "banter" can actually mean bullying, intimidation, teasing and just all round unpleasantness. It's not always just meaning a bit of good fun and jesting in good humour, far from it. The very word "banter" is that oh so affable sounding word that caught bullies just love to use as their defence time and again. When Louise mentioned the word "banter" I related it strongly as a negative and far from good natured word from a girl I was at school with when sharing PE and drama classes with her in a barechested state that enabled her to pass highly personal comment and innuendo that were far from fun or "banter" to me. We made contact again at 40 for the first time since 16 and I brought her behaviour up at one point and she literally didn't even have any concept of the way her behaviour impacted others like me and the old "banter" defence got wheeled out. My only regret is that I didn't have the confidence at the time to fire the right words back with some quick thinking at the time rather than allow myself to get flustered and clearly red faced which led to more "banter".

Louise, can you give examples of what kind of specific banter you dished out and do you think you might have ever made anybody unhappy with it? Especially if you were bantering with mandated shirtless boys in school. Remember, boys are more sensitive than girls at these ages.

Does fun and banter automatically mean sex and perversion.

Jason32 - I take it she enjoyed the view and therefore, did indeed find it "fun". To put it bluntly, she got an eyeful at home, why did she need them at school. supposedly a place of learning She also used the word "banter" - where does "banter" end and abuse start?. One person's banter is another person's insult.

School should not be a place where adolescent sex fantasies are given free reign - for boys OR girls.

To Louise or mostly to those who misinterpret the word "fun".

I don't think she was meaning it in a bad way or was amused about boys being shirtless. She was just a girl who liked seeing boys shirtless, same for being raised on a farm seeing her brothers and the other hands on the farm shirtless.

On the other side boys might enjoy seeing girls in just bikinis etc.

I wouldn't think it's good to be that picky about a single word. She was totally honest with this statment and thats a normal reaction from her perspective.

also directly to Louise:
In what situations you saw your brothers and the others on your farm shirtless? Were you made to work there too? Did they ever noticed your "wachting them"?

Greg

Before we went to the school, we knew what kit was worn for cross country. We had seen boys out running from the school, also the kit list said under sports kit, white cotton shorts for indoor pe and cross country. There was no mention of vests or plimsolls. When my parents saw this they just said you run in just your shorts, like the rest.

We just turned up, changed, lined up outside. Beyond the initial lessons, you knew what to do. It was only really cold waiting for everyone else. No debate about it anyway !