Burnley Grammar School

I think the National Service comment is particularly valid.

While I certainly do not advocate a return of National Service as some do, I do feel the obedience and discipline a tough education system instilled is something I would like to see return.

As for Mr Dando, best ignored I feel. Interestingly again, the extensive list of uniform required which he has copied and pasted just makes me feel things were better when a pair of shorts and maybe a vest was all that was required. Times were simpler!

"Santa Claus":

I know this thread is about school, but do you really want to give the impression you are back in the playground, with pointless posts like that one?. Taunts rather than facts, which I assume you are embarrassed about yourself since you hide behind such a childish screen name.

The truth is some people were deeply affected by the experiences they had at school, thanks to dictatorial policies that were decades out of date. I assume Mr. Dando was one of them.

I think we have to face the fact that everybody had different experiences and therefore a different outlook based on those experience. Contrary to what some of you think we "didn't ALL" enjoy the bullying of PE teachers, and being half naked in public on winter mornings. There is a fine line between banter and bullying, there is a fine line between encouragement and bullying and many teachers crossed that line on numerous occassions. I would genuinely like to see them try those tactics today and see what happened to them.

I disagree with Mr Dando in one particular - I think showers are desirable, especially as you get older but efforts could be made to ensure the more shy lads got a degree of privacy - as I said elsewhere they will probably not be joining the army (or the scouts) so they don't need to get "comfortable" with public nudity.

If you want kids to get interested in your subject whether it is PE or geography, then you have to encourage them, not make some of them fearful or hate the subject. I am sure as many were put off as encouraged by the behaviour of teachers years ago.

Watch out!
Dando's about!
Again!

Danny C, tell us more about your drama class and why boys needed to be shirtless for that too?

What did you and your drama classmates thought of it?

Alan is correct, the conscript culture in the school changing room that still pervaded my time in the 1980's with obnoxious PE teachers getting their thrills from watching vulnerable teenagers undressing. There are more protections for kids these days thanks to the Children's Act 1989, Human Rights Act 1999 & Equalities Act 2010.

However, there are still some outdated state sponsored institutions that mandate compulsory towel and shower requirements. We should use the Covid 19 Pandemic to get rid of the communal changing room and compulsory shower stipulation that still exists in some schools. Here is one offending institution:

https://www.hernebayhigh.org/our-school/uniform/

Physical Education Clothing

Physical Education is an integral part of the curriculum and it is essential that students change for the lessons. The clothing listed below is required by all students taking part in PE/Games: Please ensure that all items of uniform and PE kit are clearly marked with your child’s name.

PE Kit for all Years 7—11 students — boys and girls (which can only be purchased from Barnums)

Black tracksuit trousers with School logo
Black rain jacket with School logo
Black Mid-layer with School logo
Red polo shirt with School logo
Black shorts with School logo
Black socks with red top

Girls can also wear a Black Skort which is embroidered with the School logo

All students should have a pair of clean indoor trainers to use in the indoor facilities (gymnasium, sports hall, climbing wall, fitness suite). Plimsolls or similar flimsy cloth or canvas shoes are not suitable for PE lessons as they offer no foot support. Students must have appropriate trainers or running shoes.

A pair of outdoor trainers and/or football boots are required for outdoor lessons.
Shin pads are advisable for football and hockey.
A gumshield is advisable for hockey and rugby.

Showers: A towel will be required when a shower is necessary.

Swimming: A costume will be required for students involved in swimming during PE lessons.

It is essential that students bring their PE kit to change into even if they are not taking part in PE lessons.

Remember, remember the fifth of December,
Forced showers, compulsory towels and PE teacher plot.
We see no reason Why child abuse treason
Should ever be forgot!

Stand with me tonight outside the House of Commons tonight, 2 metres apart and demand the end to all forced PE requirements!

James: It is just possible to accept that strict "obedience" needed to be inculcated into 1950s boys because within a few years of leaving school they would have become National Servicemen (my dad was one), but once National Service was ended in Britain there was no need to treat boys like army fodder- using surnames, not even knowing first name it seems, being forced to conform to some outdated dress system. By the 1980s every home had a bath and many had showers, most people used them every day and boys were clean and fairly good at personal hygiene - and why did teachers need to watch boys getting undressed and showering?, I'd like to see teachers today trying to dictate their outdated rules, and watching them

Alan, I just had to accept the strict rules and obey them without question.
It was a tradition that went right through the school for boys of all ages.

Bernard, what's not natural about the basic human trait of shyness and self-consciousness? I was often hyper-sensitive and also very self-critical of myself. I remain so to this day actually. I would not choose to describe my experience of compulsory barechested PE as unhappy. It may well be normal for some boys to take their shirts off in summer, just as well as it is quite normal for other boys never to do so. I most certainly was not conditioned to fear being barechested. My father and brother would be so now and again. I was never pressured to be on holidays. Should I have been? You talked about comfort zones and growing up, well it's not as if I was kept in the comfort zone by having three PE classes every week for almost six years, all of the indoors ones twice a week being barechested and barefoot, and even the outdoor one being shirtless half the time in the warmer weather. I even had a large number of drama classes over a three year period that could often end up with many of the boys with no tops on for various improvisations. Some weeks at my school I could end up being barechested on 4 out of the 5 days in the week, on the Monday, Wednesday and Friday morning with PE and on a Thursday afternoon in the drama studio. So I was pushed into these requirements of my school, like all boys were, and I never complained about it or even played truant to avoid a single class in all that time. I sucked the whole lot up.
But at the end of it all, I grew up and when I left at 18 after countless hundreds of lessons wearing nothing but a pair of shorts and the obsessively policed ritual of showers that were impossible to evade, I still remained with the very same feelings, anxieties, shyness and insecurities that I'd began that school with when I was just 12. So what?
Your post to me really did remind me of an actual PE teacher talking down to me. Don't you think that PE teachers should have at least shown a hint of empathy for the differences of their pupils and how they felt about their bodies? It sounds like you would just have no concern that quite a lot of boys have very sensitive personalities, especially at the ages of secondary school education. Most boys don't shout about their modesty feelings. I didn't. But it was there, and quite a few of my close friends had it the same. There is no denying it. Actually, boys are the more sensitive of the sexes at these ages, not the girls.
What my own experience tells me is that you cannot forcibly knock confidence into somebody, you have to build it carefully.
Some boys who initially hated being forced to take their shirts off for PE ended up liking it, well that's maybe, but like me I'd suggest that the vast majority of self-conscious boys just learnt to tolerate it as it became more familiar.

James, Did you never wonder why such bizarre rules were applied so vigorously?

John,
The wearing of no underwear underneath our shorts was a rule that was rigorously enforced and changing and showers were continually supervised.

James,
I can understand your dislike of not being allowed to wear underwear underneath your shorts. This rule was clearly a hygiene one as it was not a pleasant prospect to have to wear sweaty underwear for the rest of the day following the PE lesson. Parents could easily have been asked to make sure that their sons brought a clean pair of underpants to change into after they’d showered. Personally I found exercising barechested a comfortable experience and was glad that I wasn’t made to wear a top for PE and cross country.

Alan, I agree that we are individuals and that some boys at the school that I attended wore their shorts with alacrity and showed off their physique,while others,like myself were quite shy and inhibited.
There was a considerable amount of "banter" towards myself especially as I was a bit on the skinny side,but that was something that I learned to accept.To wear just shorts and also being topless in the confines of the school made me feel bashful,but going on public roads and streets was particularly galling.
I didn't enjoy being "gawped" at on those long cross country runs wearing just my shorts and not being allowed to wear anything underneath.

Bernard, with all due respect I don't think there is anything unnatural in some boys being more modest and shy than others. I agree with Danny, I used to feel very uncomfortable. The "banter" I went through just compounded the problem. I too was neither fat not very skinny, but I detested it.

I think you and others need to realise that everybody is different, with different levels of comfort and modesty and just as some people are left handed, and others right, it is not unnatural at all.. It is called individualism. Not everybody enjoys running round more than half naked, either indoors or out. Not everybody wants to be gawped at in public streets while running round topless, or to be the subject of speculation as to what, if anything, they wore under their shorts. I think it especially terrible that 18 year old MEN could be forced by a teacher to undress, against their will. I am very glad that today's kids would not be subject to those kind of rules. It is called progress. You might not "approve" but there it is. Society moves on.

Danny - I was sad to read your post and how unhappy you were to have done p.e. in just shorts. I thought you must have had some reason to be ashamed of you body - overweight or very skinny, perhaps - until the very end when you said you had no reason to be ashamed of your body!
There must have been a reason for your problem with being barechested - I don't think it can be natural for a boy to be reluctant to take his shirt off, especially when there are plenty of other boys around him without shirts. I was at school some twenty years before you and, as Rob said, it was normal for boys to take their shirts off when playing outside in the summer. I wonder if you had been "conditioned" to fear taking your shirt off. Perhaps you didn't see older relations - brothers, uncles or your father without a shirt and this made you feel uneasy. There are quite a few people commenting here that they were unhappy to do p.e. shirtless to start with but grew to like it such as Lee. It seems a great shame that you weren't like that. We all need to be pushed out of our comfort zones sometimes - it is part of growing up.

My shyness when it came to showers is a big regret.

Up until the age of 11 my school didn’t have showers at all.

In the senior school the changing rooms to the age of 13 had a square room with 8 shower heads on 3 walls and a rail for towels.

The older boys changing rooms had a central area fully visible from the changing areas at either end with 6 shower heads on each side.

Showering was not enforced and while initially encouraged, boys quickly started to either just wash legs whilst still wearing shorts or not bother at all and go home dirty.

There was just one boy who would shower after every lesson without exception. I was always amazed by how confident he was to get on with it in front of us all and jealous too. I never plucked up the courage to start myself.

Now of course I realise that my shyness was totally unnecessary. We are more the same than we are different, even at that age. Nudity is perfectly healthy.

At my boys grammar school in the 1960s unless we were playing rugby it was white cotton shorts and bare feet for anything else except swimming which was naked in the school's own pool. Showers were communal, cold and naked and any lad not showering properly or wearing underpants for any sport including rugby was guaranteed that his bottom would meet up with the gym master's plimsoll on at least six occasions and often more, six on each cheek was normal and your bottom was bare. It burned and stung for the rest of the day. Being sent off from rugby meant your bottom had a meeting with the cane, four for a yellow card, eight for a red one.

We were expected to change underwear for PE. I wasn’t aware of anyone wearing their trunks under their shorts. Wearing underwear into the showers, however, was frowned upon. I remember two boys being caught doing this in our second year. They were sent straight back in, naked. The teacher made it clear after the lesson that wearing underwear in the showers would not be tolerated.

As I have commented previously we were not allowed to wear anything under our p.e. shorts (indoor or outside) and certainly nothing was worn in the showers.
Nowadays it seems lads wear boxer shorts under their swim shorts when they go into a pool or the sea!!

Will, did many boys wear their trunks under their PE shorts as well as in the showers?

We had PE kit consisting of Yellow rugby top, reversible for playing on separate teams (no skins), black shirts and black socks. It was the same for the girls. White PE kit for indoor sports.

Showers were communal (about eight shower heads in a line facing each other) and enforced. Boys had the choice of showering naked or in trunks. Most of us showered naked, a few did wear trunks. It was daunting at first but after a while it became the norm. Am not sure what the girls did regarding showering, it was never discussed. This was 1993.

Thanks for your suggestion Tom B.

Charlie B

Well I have gone retro now at 72, I tried boxer briefs but found them too restrictive, so now it's "old mans trunks" again for me M&S mostly but have bought off Ebay at retailers who specialise, the fly hole has got better and stays shut now, probably due to my age, I remember back then they weren't with the cheaper brands, and I guess because of the onset of puberty easily opening fly holes annoyed and embarrassed me, so briefs were for me then, but every opportunity I ditched the vest, going into the school toilets to take it off and be like the other boys.

Back then I didn't appreciate the amount of PE we did at school, but in my forties and fifties when I joined a gym I used to think I wished I had kept up with fitness a bit back then after I left school and went into the big wide world of work.

Really enjoyed Gregory's Girl in the mid eighties! Being Scottish based it seemed more realistic thanks TimH for the memory!

Charlie B, have you looked at Oddballs, the cancer fundraiser? They sell a wide range of underwear, sportswear and accessories - even facemasks in a huge range of styles and colourful patterns. It’s worth checking out and profits go to a good cause.

Keith John
I too had a period just after starting secondary school when I wore the "old man style" trunks. I was so pleased when I had briefs to wear. I find it strange now how things have changed and it seems that briefs or slips are out of vogue and trunks and boxers have come back into fashion. I find it difficult to purchase briefs/slips in decent colours like boxers are sold. In the same way my preference for "speedo" type swim trunks are considered a no no.

Back in the early 1960s, the boys in my class were frequently referred to as a 'bunch of softies' by the PE teacher. He said that we needed to be 'toughened-up', and over the years, he succeeded in doing exactly that.

Looking back, I have to admit that his 'assertive encouragement' was necessary from time to time, or few of us would have made the effort to get physically fit.

Where the hazy line is drawn between encouragement and bullying is probably a matter of opinion, (or how accurate one's memory is!)

As I say, perhaps it is the rose tinted specs but I wish I had been pushed out of my comfort zone both on the sports field and to get over my shyness.

So many allowances were made with gym and sporting activity that I was able to be lazy.

After lessons, the shower policies weren’t enforced and so it wasn’t until many years later I learned there was nothing to be fearful of. While we are not all the same as another poster commented, we are more the same than we are different and boys benefit from understanding that.

Hi, Reading all the post here on bare chested PE and shorts, I started senior school in 1959 at age 11, and of course it was a culture shock to me as my primary school was a small one and inner city, the curriculum was totally different and when it came to PE also totally different well, 3 times a week instead of 1 at primary, 1 lesson in the sports hall bare chested but you could wear underpants under your dark blue shorts, they were a very coarse cotton fabric, 1 lesson outdoors that was basically football or cricket depending on the season and 1 lesson that was cross country normally the last lesson on a Friday so if you ran well you quickly shower and get dressed and home, that was bare chested as well, being on the edge of town we had to run through the back streets until we reached a path that took us into the fields, then up to the canal and along the towpath back to the town and down the back streets again to school.

Though underpants could be worn I ended up not wearing any at all in PE, why ? because I wore trunk underpants white of course, aka ("old mans pants") and the hem showed beneath my PE shorts and I got teased and some boys loved pulling down the hem of my pants in PE, so I stopped wearing them, I did end up wearing underpants when at 13 I got my mum to buy me briefs, but still white ones, with vests, Urgh!

Danny C
I do sympathise with you. Because some off the lads in our class were very athletic and football mad it was always assumed that every one "enjoyed" sports & pe. Not necessarily so.
But was you allowed to wear pants under your shorts or was it like my school no underwear for either pe or outdoor games.

I just want to say how much I agree with Danny C's post. I think a lot of the posters here fail to realise that some boys were and are quite shy, and for whatever reason found it embarrassing to have to run around just wearing shorts - and remember in a lot of schools there were mixed sex lessons or you might have teachers from other departments walking through or past the gym and seeing you.

Some boys didn't mind this or didn't care, but others did, and allowance should be made - nobody regardless of age ought to be "made" to do things just because a teacher or employer has power. I am sure some of these old teachers put boys off sport rather than turned them on to it. I hope it doesn't happen anywhere today in the Britain of the 21st century.