Burnley Grammar School

Laura,I remember the Maypole dancing that we had at school in the 70's/80's, that we had with the girls.We all dressed up and the boys wore those satin shorts that were popular at the time,

Gareth J: I did say that when a child reaches an age when he can experience fear or embarrassment, parents should make their own decision - in consultation with the child. Too often, professionals phrase "advice" as if it were a command.

I was using America (and Israel, come to that) as an example of a universal procedure that doesn't upset very many adults - there are, of course "Intactavists" especially in America, with their frequent complaints about "mutilation" etc, which seems extreme. Most of the men thus treated do not regard themselves as "mutilated".

As I said it would save pain and embarrassment at a later age, which seems not uncommon, and seems a good procedure for hygiene. That is just my personal view of course, I wouldn't wish to inflict it on others.

Laura, I'm going to say a 70s/80s thing was maypole dancing in school PE I was at primary in the early 90s and certainly never did maypole dancing. Could have just been the location of the school been close to the city we weren't blessed with many fields to dance on. I have seen photos of it happening in other country schools seems to be done in either uniform and bare feet or indoor PE kit and it does look like it could have been a fun activity

Alan you talk of 'if it were a universal procedure', when answering others about overreaching doctors in the schools of the distant past diagnosing boys for the chop on the end of their willies. I'm getting a bit of a vibe here that you are kind of sympathetic to that whole thing. What a horrible thought that something like that could be done to everyone by default. How does that square with your frequent concerns about abusive adults towards the young Alan? What could be a greater abuse of half the young population than what you appear to be advocating as I read between the lines. That would be a totally unreasonable and despicable act of molestation and injury in itself. Do you agree or not?

In primary middle school May 1st if it was a schoolday, or a date in the first week of May meant Maypole dancing in our PE kits outdoors. Did anyone else do that? The rest of the year it was left neglected amongst all the other PE equipment. Essentially it was half hour of skipping in circles holding a ribbon. We did it mixed boys with girls, and girls liked it more than boys. Was the Maypole just a 70s/80s thing?

Whatever that boy in the photo was thinking at the time who knows but you are describing some of the things that went through my own mind in PE class, particulary when faced with the gymnasium. The "horse" in the photo is symbolic of those days to me. I often had to drag it out for use. What a useless object it was for most of us!

Reunions and positive change.

Graham. I've got a positive reunion story from this January when I went to a Class of 96 teacher pupils reunion. It was quite well shown up and I enjoyed it immensely. Some people hadn't changed much and others had seen better days. I reconnected with a few and hope to stay in touch from now on. I met a collection of my old teachers from geography, history, drama, art, english, p.e and science classes. One or two of them looked no different really.

I'll confess to not being the ideal weight when I was at school and carrying too much puppy fat around with me. I was lazy at subjects that disinterested me and p.e was no exception. Hands up, I was the tubbiest lad in class even though I didn't think I over ate, brutally shown up when I had to p.e shower beside so many slim others. I used to wind my p.e teacher up a lot by not trying and my weight was used to give me grief here and there, but nothing seriously bad. I was weighed on some school scales one day and I think I was nearly 13 stone at 14. My p.e teacher at the time was youngish and trim as you would expect.

Some time a handful of years after school ended I began getting into exercise routines voluntarily and discovered that I didn't hate it as much as I used to in school when stuck with what they wanted me to do and discovered I liked a gentle jog or long distance bike ride, both which began to get weight under control. I then went on to half marathons and then the full marathon including a number of London one's, got ever more serious into cycling up to 50 miles a day with a cycle group and enjoying all of it. I also swim now and again, and use my local gym most weeks if I can fit in the time. Now in my forties I'm two or three stone less than I was in school in the nineties. How many people can say that?

So what am I leading up to here you ask, well p.e lessons didn't give me the bug for this at all. I gave myself the bug as a young adult looking at myself in the mirror. None of the teacher or class comments fat shaming me did it for me. I did it for myself. I was always chosen for the skins side in basketball, volleyball or softball we played. Everytime he chose me or if the class chose then I'd still end up on the same side of things. A kind of passive fat shaming maybe. It had no effect at the time.

So back to the reunion in January 2022 and seeing those for the first time since 1996. One of them was my pretty slimline p.e teacher of those days. I found out he'd stopped doing the job about fifteen years ago and gone into some other non teaching job of some sort in the meantime but still within education.

And the best part was that our roles had reversed from back in school. The tubby unfit and lazy schoolboy that I was in 1996 was now a fit and healthy, lean and developed early fortysomething whilst my thin and fit old p.e teacher had stuck on a pile of weight on his face and belly and must have been over 18 stone and packing a waistline well past 40 inches compared to my 30/32 and sub 11 stone weight. He congratulated me on my efforts and how I looked and made a self depreciating comment about himself. I would have been far too polite to say anything in the way he used to do at me as an overweight schoolboy. It was a great afternoon. My only regret was that I wish I taken my old report booklet along with me to read some of the comments back at one or two of the teachers to prove how wrong they were, including my one p.e teacher here who in one line described me as having no aptitude for hard work and exercise. He ate his words in front of me.

To Jack White

Yes, whatever had to be tolerated in school, there must have been much worse to come - bullying and indignity and it was state-approved.

Looking at that picture, I notice the boy on the left of the group standing facing the "box" (it may have had a name but I can't remember). He looks very studious and I imagine that he was thinking "I didn't come here for this I thought I was going to learn Mathematics, Chemistry and Latin and History and not to have to be in here stripped to the waist".

Looking at the boys in the black and white photo from 1959 you have to feel for the ones earlier in the 50's who did PE like that and then as soon as they left school went almost straight into national service which must have meant long periods of going back into the gym in shorts and no shirts for further PE (or then PT - physical training) lessons as young adults in order to shape up. What a depressing prospect to be in school at that time and realise you had so much more of it to come when you left if you weren't naturally gifted in physical shape or pursuits.

One of the readers has pointed me in the direction of this forum and asked me to say something regarding my own personal experience and I'm happy to do so, just once. Below I have pasted a local news item from my own North London school I attended in the 1980s partly covering the same time. Stories had been doing the rounds for years about Mr Blackmore but nobody took much notice as he was basically quite a good P.E teacher. It refers to him as a 'coach' but I just think of him as a P.E teacher myself. He took afterschool track and field a lot. I think this is where he got up to much of his mischief. My cousin at the same school had him, I didn't. One day he told me how he'd quote - 'crushed a boys balls with his bare hand' for answering back and the dragged him along by his long hair until he was nearly crying. Plenty in this case went uninvestigated, what he got done for was probably the tip of the iceberg.

The trouble is perverts don't look like perverts. So take a read below and understand how this works at times. It's real, it happens and some of what these men got up to were crimes by the values of any year in history. I'm not surprised 'Mr Blackmore' was shocked to get the knock on the door in 2015 about thirty years later. I was surprised to hear it too. I'd long forgotten about the rumours of this perve that swirled about the place. This proves it's never too late and in 2017 he got his due come uppance. I always thought the worst P.E teachers were the ones in their 40s for some reason. If you had to serve the full proper sentence and not half, he'd be getting out this week. I've heard nothing since he was sent down, so I suppose he's out now if he's still alive.

Here's the story;


A perverted athletics coach who sexually assaulted pupils after sports classes was jailed for five years.
Malcolm Blackmore, 75, repeatedly groped two boys' private parts over their gym shorts in a series of attacks at Albany Comprehensive School in Bell Lane, Enfield.
Blackmore, of Friars Walk, Southgate also performed a sex act on one of the children during a school trip as he carried out a string of 'disgusting' indecent assaults between 1982 and 1985.
The 'well-respected' sports coach claimed to be 'shocked' when he was arrested and charged in 2015.

Former pupils and colleagues from Albany Comprehensive, which has now been demolished, described Blackmore as an 'inspirational teacher' during his Old Bailey trial.
But a jury convicted the former coach of eight counts of indecent assault, against boys as young as 12.
The pensioner listened through a hearing aid and showed no emotion as he was jailed for five years today (Weds).
Judge Michael Wood told him: "You are now 75 years of age, soon to be 76.
"Until now you have been of excellent character, well-respected, described as an inspirational teacher, an athletics coach, coaching you had been doing for over 30 years.
"No fewer than 11 former pupils and colleagues came to court and spoke of your many admirable qualities.
"When you were first arrested almost two years ago you were said to be shocked.
"I can well understand that now because, after well over 30 years, what you had done to your former pupils had come to haunt you.
"And until that I'm not in any doubt that you thought you had got away with it.
"You indecently assaulted two of your own pupils aged between 12-15 years.
"You indecently assaulted them whilst they were at school and should have been in your care.'

He added: "Both men still after all these years find it hard to trust people, in particular men, because of your actions."

Blackmore was jailed for five years after he was convicted of eight counts of indecent assault.

Graham Butterfield, and many others who have commented on "questionable" PE teachers. I can only say we had one D.O.M PE teacher (Dirty Old Man). He was an unpleasant bully, and our only teacher in the subject, so therefore he was more easily able to get away with it because those involved were always subject to his threats of punishment. Until recently nobody would have believed the pupil over the teacher as he used to say himself ("if you make a fuss it will be me they believe not you"). Lads he was not interested in were either castigated, or holes were picked in their performance in sport, or because of their lack of physique.

Graham, would you not agree that some teachers (Mr. Parry pictured on this site is now, I believe, deceased) are in positions of such power they form their own little empires, and other teachers lower down the pecking order will be excluded or ignored. The same things happens in both politics and medicine. They are shrugged off because "thats just Mr so-and-so's way" and never question it.

It didn't help that our headmaster was an elderly man, just hanging on for his pension, and delegating most of the running the school (including "discipline") to the deputy head, who saw himself as the eventual replacement of the real Headmaster, and therefore had his own little cadre of bootlickers. The P.E. master was one of those. I doubt the real head knew what was going on in school, and I doubt that he would have wanted to be told. He relied too much onthe deputy. That is how bad behaviour and practices begin. I am happy to say the deputy didn;t get the job and no doubt inflicted himself on another school with another old and weak head to try the same empire building again

I don't want to be rude to Ambrose, but quite frankly I would have been horrified if an adult, still less our teacher, had jumped into the showers stark naked. Quite frankly, what on earth was those who allowed it thinking?. For all they knew the lad who was concerned about physical development might have had an older brother or a father who would, to me, seem a more comfortable way to get questions answered. I am surprised some of those teachers thus instructed were too embarrassed to go through with it especially as I am sure the lads discussed it between themselves, and formed their own conclusions, even if they made no complaint.

I am very happy this sort of questionable behaviour could not be restored in this day and age.

I am sure there ARE good and decent teachers like Graham, but there have been many cases of dubious characters obtaining work as coaches and teachers. Just last week Bradley Wiggins revealed he had been abused by a coach when he was young. No doubt there will be those who accuse him of lying, as somebody did me recently, but why would we lie about it?. It is that sort of attitude that guarantees such predators continue to get away with their behaviour. It's not nice being called a liar 40 years after the event, let alone soon after it happened.

James M: You really have my sympathy. I think ALL advice given by school personnel should be only advice, not some sort of command. Sadly, parents, until recently, have always thought that "teacher knows best" just as "Dr always knew best". They didn't, and as you say it is the boy or girl who suffers. That "advice" your parents and others were given should have been backed up with a second opinion - your own GP -as one of the other men on this page said a few days ago - his dad wasn't happy, took advice and the lad kept his foreskin.

I come at this from two angles - if the operation ever is necessary medically - which it is - then to do it at birth (as they do throughout America) it saves pain and embarrassment (especially pain) and is slower to heal. I won't go into anatomical detail, but it wasn't necessary for me, but I know it can be in some cases it has to be done. I was at school with a lad who was bullied all the time for having been "done" - most of the time in the changing room of course.

If it was a universal procedure, no kid would ever feel singled out, and as they would grow up from birth without a foreskin, they wouldn't feel the sense of the loss, or have a comparison to draw on, and then feel "lesser" because of it. Imagine what it must be for a man to have it done in his 20s or 30s.

From the point of view of hygiene (which is one of the main reasons American's are so keen on it), though things might well be different today, I remember how young lads were often reluctant to wash their hands, let alone anything else.

I wouldn't want to have gone through it post babyhood, and I am sorry for anyone who does, but had I been born in America, it wouldn't have bothered me.

I've looked at those posts Ambrose. I'm sceptical. Very sceptical.

One bit got me in particular. Sixties training college advising/encouraging PE staff to jump into the school showers with pupils just to supervise. Come on, really? Any proof out there I can read that corroborates this teacher training advice from back then? Keen to read it if so.

I think PE teachers have always been on the weird side. Everyone I know, over a certain age, has a strange/illegal PE teacher anecdote. We had one who would stand in the middle of the changing room commenting on breast development, including cupping various ones (twos?) that she was either impressed or underwhelmed by. I seem to remember she greatly appreciated a very pale pink nipple.

She never touched me - she must've known that even at that age I'd have laid her out. I stopped going - I refused to do anything other than running (strictly weather permitting), swimming, and some light non-competitive tennis on a summer afternoon, so they were happy for me to stop attending. I didn't mind hockey but I'd already been banned for cracking a teacher on the ankle bone with the stick.

To Graham Butterfield.
You obviously weren't trained in the same way as myself and George. (Read: Ambrose @19/2/2013, 5/3/2013 and George 20/2/2013 onwards.)
I would agree that to disport yourself naked in front of a single pupil could have been seen as somewhat dubious. However, 50 years ago it was not unknown for younger teachers to be naked with a group of pupils for a legitamate reason. We weren't showing off or being voyeuristic, and the pupils learnt something about what physical development to expect as they grew older; all while being supervised.

Are you a bit of a snipping zealot too by any chance Alan? You seemed to be making a defence of a man like my school doctor. I've lived with the physical consequences for half a century of what some random man with his medical prejudices told my parents back in 1971. I know I didn't need to have it. My parents would not have even given it a thought without that school doctor and unfortunately they were the generation and type of people that believed the doctor must be right. Even though I was just ten at the time I knew I was right. He put ideas into their head and I paid the price for life. I'm very pleased to read others here who didn't fall into the same trap. Do you think parents have the right to overule a ten year old on this? Back in 71 it was almost irrelvant what children wanted when adults made decisions but it's very different now. They must have stopped doing check ups like this very many years ago.

Mike's right. Why are you so concerned about upsetting somebody on here who had not the slightest concern about upsetting a sizable group of people on here a few days ago with insinuations about our mental health simply for making comments they disliked? I wouldn't dream of rolling over to that kind of thing. I'm not attacking you Alan, just asserting a friendly bit of advice even if it seems a bit direct.

While I'm at it, I'd like to ask Graham as question if he sees this. In your time what were some of the worst cases of bullying behaviour in school, if any, you came across, what was your reaction and how did you deal with it either as the school or as yourself? Thanks.

Alan, the last line of your comments are what these people want, don't you understand that?

Say your piece without fear or favour. Why are you allowing yourself to be intimidated on a historical forum just because some people don't like what you say? Don't self censor or cancel your opinions by fear of what others may say back.

I'd like to reassure Jim as someone whose career began in the same time frame that was mentioned that I am very confident if I had behaved like that at any time in my own Phys.Ed role then I would have faced almost certain disciplinary action at my first school placement or any others in the time afterwards elsewhere. It would likely be a suspension offence and possible dismissal in the context of and repetitive way that was described even by standards of over four decades past. I'd have been thoroughly disgusted by a Phys.Ed colleague who behaved like that and would have taken them aside for a quiet private word if I'd seen it or been told about it even if they were my own superior. In today's retrospective climate it would not be beyond the realms of possibility for that very Phys.Ed teacher to face criminal sanction if enough former pupils came forward and corroborated their stories independently of each other, even if many of the kids at the time found it amusing.

Thankyou to those who answered my question on reunions. I may come back to those another time.

Phil Hargreaves said on 30th March 2022 at 22:25.

"I went to Burnley Grammar from 1973 to 75, and Ron Parry was still there as sports teacher. He was known for inviting boys for a chat in his private changing room and he was always naked in the shower when they went in...someone commented earlier that he was known as 'Gay Paris' haha"

You had a good laugh while relating this anecdote Phil and I can understand that but I wonder what your attitude would be today, or perhaps at any time in the years since you left, if you had boys of your own that went to your school with a teacher, perhaps the same one, if they told you he kept doing this whenever they got invites into his private area. Would you ignore it or feel you had to say something? It was clearly not accidental was it.

It's fair to say that nowadays he'd be out on his ear at the very least wouldn't he?

Lee and others. I think the explanation is that until recent times most doctors and other professionals came from the upper middle class and they were circumcised, and had their sons circumcised and thought it was better for all boys (though if it is going to be done it would be a lot less embarrassing and painful if it were done neonatal as is usual in America). I never had the sort of problems some of you did at school in this direction, but I suspect that those doctors who became advocates for it, was basing their recommendations on personal experience. It is advocated for health and hygiene in the States , which seems plausable (and also as a preventitive for HIV, which I think is BS, as that is more a matter of protection & precaution rather than anatomy). As for the theory that they - or some of them - might have been fetishists - I will say nothing. I have already upset Andy too much and I don't want another attack.

Gosh this brings things back a bit. I also had a school medic tell my older brother he ought to be given circumcision back in the early 80s in his early teens. He never did. I remember him insisting on proving to me that he didn't need to. There was only sixteen months age gap between us both and I was in the next year down from him. Twelve months later I got given a similar diagnosis, whether it was the same medic who did me as my older brother no idea but it was just rubbish, neither of us needed it, so what was going on? My old folks wondered this at the time back in the mid 80's. We both went to a regular secondary modern school in Cambridgeshire that had a full time on site nurse/matron who I also got sent to a couple of times for minor sports injuries incurred during PE, although the medic I mention that we saw was male and not directly affiliated to the school. Never trusted doctors much although most people thought of them like gods until recently and they had a high status role where many automatically believed what they said and most people acted unquestionably on their advice.

Mike on 20th April 2022 said -

'99% of PE teachers, infact anybody, are fine and upstanding. But it's conspiracies to silence others that have in the past allowed some in this tiny minority to get away with their behaviour.'

Based on the jaw dropping news today that 56 MP's in Parliament are being investigated for sexual misconduct in their workplace, that's nearly one in ten of them, perhaps we should revise your figure down to about 90% or probably a lot less Mike?

Following on from Brendan, Paul and Daran on the "snipping" of our parts as they call it.

I got done when I was ten years old before I hit puberty on the advice of some school doctor in 1971. Its ages ago but I had no discomfort or troubles that I'm aware of but I do know I told my parents I didn't want to go and have it done and they completely dismissed my pleas. Both my parents are still alive and barely a year goes by when I have not had a go at them for what they did to me and left me like. Some people are circumcision zealots, as was mentioned maybe some of these school doctors were too and pushed their zealotry on this. Snipping (circumcising) boys like me for a non medical emergency like that is tantamount to violence against the child in my opinion. Later on at school in the locker room I didn't notice many other boys who looked like me and it left me very envious of the others. Anyone who defends this or any doctors trying to persuade parents to get their sons done for no good reason directly related to insurmountable physical health problems is clearly a sick minded zealot because it's left me with a big hang up much of my life. A child of any age has the right to say no.

Yes Iain that's right. Thanks for finding that. I think there was an open verdict because inquests don't often like to give a suicide one to those so young and so give them the benefit of the doubt whether they really meant to do it even if the facts looks quite obvious. I think that's very understandable.

Heartbreaking story Angela. Is this the young man you mention by any chance? Whenever a young person of that school age is driven to such extremes it makes a media impact and I'm pleased it does, It should never be ignored.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lancashire/4481988.stm

Well Daran I had a very similar experience to you there five years earlier though. Our new intake high school year all had to pass through this grubby and very short little man's hands throughout the course of the week, alone, no parental involvement or anyone else present in the room. I was probably only about 5ft tall and he was no bigger than me. Amongst one or two things from this that stick in the memory fifty years later is that talking between ourselves comparing notes afterwards so many of the boys said he'd told them a circumcision was required which seems unlikely for so many in a small group of a couple of dozen or so. Makes you wonder about it all doesn't it.

The good, the bad and the ugly are all a part of our young lives at school. Seventeen years ago a young boy who was only 13 years of age and lived in the next road to me in Lytham St Anne's and went to the same local school as my children had took his life and I think the subsequent inquest put it down to severe bullying. I found out at the time that this is far from unique. It's not uncommon for children as young as 11, 12 or 13 to be driven to this. So please be kind.

I don't get the fired up provocations from Andy and the lashing out. It makes no sense. I've gone through all this month's comment/memories. I do not agree with your interpretation. Sorry if that offends but just feel I had to say something about bullying culture that affected me deeply and that I often find myself thinking about all these years later.

Angela.

@ John - your comment on bullying reminds me of someone who was a bully (preferred modus operandi was the 'mid-night' phone for two hours). His attitude was that, if you called him a bully it was you that were the bully by saying so.

Andy - after your last post I have to say that I am really sorry for you ... please, for your own good, try and get a grip on things.

John makes points which are undeniably true but who knows the exact extent although I do think it is a fairly significant minority who come here on and off and some who are outright daydreamers.
It's a blurry line trying to decipher those who are coming here for the right reasons and those who are not.

I've really liked a few of the longer comments on here recently.