Burnley Grammar School

Louise - you know as well as I do girls would never have been required to wear just their bras for PE, and if the situation HAD been reversed and a male had gushed about how it was "fun" to see half naked girls on a public forum, he would rightly be accused of being coarse and lewd. That in microcosm is the double standards that applied in the past - the "good old days" that so many on here dream about.

Well I am of the view that ditching the traditional police uniform in favour of a sports top and cap and no longer restricting recruitment to tall and capable men was probably a retrograde step. All part of the dumbing down, Peelian principles seem have been lost from the police force, sorry - service.

Alan, I attended mixed middle and high schools where teams of vests vs skins or full PR groups were skins so it inevitable we'd see males exercise stripped to the waist, How could we avoid not witnessing this especially as we all followed the same timetable? And yes...it was fun to see who was stripped off. Good grief there weren't many girls objecting! We didn't tease anyone about their appearance when bare chested at any point. There was banter but it remained as that. I'm a 100% certain if we'd gone down to our bras at any time the same lads would not have objected either! As for your point about masculinity, of course stripping to the waist is exactly that and has been for centuries? I would not be astonished or surprised if Emma's son strips for boxing competitions because for one he'll undoubtedly sweat and 2 because he's become confident baring his chest in front of a crowd..

John: I have said to the point of repletion on this site, that if a boy wishes to exercise without a shirt, then he should be perfectly entitled to do so, however, this should not be used as leveridge to make other boys conform to his (and perhaps the schools) desires.

Michael: I always find it interesting how ex-grammar school pupils seem to imagine that their schooldays turned them into paragons of industry and hard work, which apparently eluded the rest of us. . I have worked all my life, too, and I am self-employed today. I have never been unemployed, and didn't need the old school tie to see me through.

As for that nonsense about "bare chests equalling masculinity" , I'd suggest you write to your local chief constables and Army officers and get their men to go out barechested, as no doubt they would do their work that much better appearing so masculine. What a ludicrous excuse - you can hardly dignify it with the word argument

1950s attitudes have gone, and they are not coming back.
Finally I'd say to the woman who said how much "fun" she had looking at boys barechested at school, that schools are not there to pander to the adolescent fancies of pupils, male or female., and perhaps girls should have had an equally harsh school experience as well as the boys - I wonder how many of them would have found that "fun"?

Louise hits the nail on the head with the comment about masculinity. To suggest that those who don’t have the modern day Puritan values regarding modesty are not enlightened is unfair.

My comments come from my own experience and also some regret of not embracing the opportunities I could have taken.

It's all very enlightened and 'hunky-dory' for children to be given choices, but if you give them too many choices some would elect not to attend school at all, or do very little work once there.

Without being too roseate about it, I think my old grammar school got the balance of choice/compulsion about right overall.

Allowed the benefit of hindsight, it is easy to say that mistakes were made. However, considering the prevailing attitudes of the time, chronic staff shortages and budget constraints, I am prepared to cut my old school a bit of slack.

Like many others, I left my school with lots of qualifications, a confident outlook and a committed work ethic. These advantages got me through university and served me well throughout my career.

So, my old school must have got some things right...

Alan
Society may have become more ‘enlightened’ and that enlightenment needs to extend to children being given choices and not have rules imposed upon them. Some lads may prefer to exercise shirtless and should be allowed that choice and not be made to wear shirts or vests.

Louise, you wrote "I understood why the teachers made them go bare and it was fun to see them bare chested"

With all due respect, the school was not there to provide you with "fun" at other people's expense.

I think you, and other posters here who have roseate memories of the habits of previous generations are whistling in the wind if you think those days will ever return, because society has, thankfully, got more enlightened.

Go Emma and Louise! Your views on exercising bare chested are refreshing and welcome. Emma, hope your youngest continues to box bare chested after lockdown. He's a real credit.

Hey Emma, Obviously being stripped to the waist is as masculine as you get. I can only speak for myself here but watching boys exercise without a top was normal at my middle and high school. I understood why the teachers made them go bare and it was fun to see them bare chested and how they were getting on with the class Being raised on a farm it wasn't unusual to see my brothers and the farmhands working in a shed or barn during clipping and harvest or any point in between, they'd all strip down and seeing them sweat was part of the nature of the work. It's scary that something so sensible and practical worries people today when there's more important things around.

Danny C (17th March): I am not doubting your word but your last post does sound a little hard to believe, as well as being quite bizarre and intriguing. Why on earth did you spend “almost half” of your Drama lessons with no shirt on? PE yes, I can understand – that was the norm for boys in most schools for quite a period of time, but a lesson like Drama? In our Drama lessons, no matter who we were supposed to be, we all just played along in our uniforms – parts really weren’t taken that seriously. What roles did you take on, who decided you should play those parts, and who decided that they must be acted out shirtless? How many others were the same in these classes?

Also, surely performing in a school production would have been a voluntary matter? What roles needed you to be shirtless in a school play, and did you not have a choice as to whether you played a particular character or not?

I understand the reasoning for it and will join anybody in condemning the unsavoury actions that a small minority of adults in positions of trust have carried out.

I still believe it is sad that such modesty is now a requirement.

Tom B: No it is not a sad "sign of the times" that the government doesn't want communual showers, and do want privacy for boys (and girls). They are just facing up to the harsh reality of modern day life. It is acknowledged, at last, that all P.E. teachers are not as pure as the driven snow. There are three films being transmitted on BBC1 this week, highlighting the appalling abuse young apprentice footballers went through at the hands of dirty minded "coaches". These are not one off cases but disgusting practices that went on for years. There are cases of young female gymnasts being fiddled about with by coaches

Also Tom why do boys have to be naked "ro bond"?, You can bond on a field trip or in a band, and you certainly don't have to be stark naked to do that. Boys who are friendly with each other will "bond" anyway, and for boys who are, or feel different in any way, they will still endure bullying, and "bonding" has nothing whatsoever to do with that. I have bonded with many people over the years but I didn't need to see them naked to do that.

I do feel kit should be fairly minimal to match the level of exercise. Shorts and a vest or just shorts should be sufficient for strength and fitness training and team wear for sports. Branded school tracksuits shouldn’t really be necessary and are just a way for the suppliers to bump up the cost.

There have obviously been terrible cases of abuse which have led to concerns over safeguarding. It is a shame that this has led to a change in attitudes towards modesty.

I do believe it is good for boys, maybe even essential, for them to bond with one another in the locker room environment. I read elsewhere that government guidance was now against communal showers for new school and sports changing facilities. It is a sad sign of the times.

Why are lads so bothered about stripping off to the waist and showing a bare chest? We respected watching them show their bare chests, sweat on a daily basis and saw boys turn into young men. I really wonder what is best. My 2 boys (10+11) could do with having a traditional PE/Games lesson. There's very little left for boys to express themselves. My youngest was doing boxing before lockdown and when competing always opted to strip off and fight bare chested without any input from either his dad or I. It's left him more than confident in showing his upper body to audiences. Come on boys let's be sensible over such things.

As I’ve said before it’s the content of PE that interests me more than the kit, though I do have a view on that.

The comment about Ping Pong is brings this home. For me, my regret about my time at school is that there was no focus in PE lessons.

Particularly for boys (sexist I know) I believe PE should be based on strength and conditioning along with nutrition and time spent on flexibility for growing bodies. Sports should then be secondary with pupils encouraged to take part but given access to a greater range.

The Physical Education (strength and conditioning) could then be tailored to individuals chosen direction.

Danny C,
Your regime does seem to have been extreme and doesn’t make sense. I can’t see why you had to be shirtless to do drama. We were always allowed pumps indoors and outdoors football boots for soccer or trainers for running. I was once made to play shirts vs skins soccer with snow on the ground which seemed strange making us do that. Myself and my friends had no issue with doing all indoor PE as a skin, we preferred it to being made to wear a shirt or a vest.

I suppose with Dan's call for a mandatory skins rule, at least it'd be the same kit for every boy. The system we did of half in vests, half in skins, always seemed unfair because new teams were chosen each time. After being one of the boys picked to take his vest off for the first three PE lessons of term, I made the mistake of complaining about it. Of course my unsympathetic teacher promptly put me on skins for the rest of the term! I learned to keep my mouth shut in future but I still think we should all have worn the same kit for PE, whatever that might be.

I must respectfully and politely take to task the reply to my fellow namesake Dan from both John and Rob here, as somebody like me who actually went to a school that had permanently barechested indoors PE classes for every single boy at all ages throughout school, even in sixth form, where it was a requirement of staying on that you continued with physical education. Barechested outside more than half the time too by the way. Three lessons each week, so a lot of PE and a lot of time being a so called "skin". Plus nothing ever allowed on our feet inside either.
I will easily dispute the claims of John and Rob, although accept they had no issue themselves. The fact is that I know many boys my age, some of whom I am still in touch with from the 80's, who were never happy or fully reconciled to constant barechested PE and the mandatory nature of it, and who given a chance would have worn a top, either a t-shirt or vest. Dan mentions that all boys should be shirtless in the gym. But we didn't just do gymnastics in our gym, we did far more. I did badminton and also table tennis sometimes - barechested and barefoot. Tell me why I needed to do games of ping pong in nothing but shorts? What did being shirtless achieve with that? Same with nothing on our feet, what purpose did that serve? The thing is that we did so much that did not require us to be completely stripped down to just a mere pair of shorts. Yet it was irrelevant what we did. It was barechested regardless, just because we were inside, even on the squash courts.
Yes, you kind of get used to it. I always prefer to say I began to tolerate it. Same as many others I knew. I can recall it all very well. This absolute myth that all boys soon got used to such mandated ways in PE needs to be called out. They did not! I know this for absolute fact, and having spoken just recently to a couple of old classmate friends all these years later about these things when we reminisced. For large parts of the year, except winter outside, within 20 minutes of arriving in school for 9am on three mornings each week I was shirtless as they were my first lesson. For almost six years.
I also endured, or tolerated, almost half my drama classes being shirtless too, on top of three days PE each week. So on four out of five days some weeks I ended up barechested in school for a decent length of time. I even ended up on the school stage three times over six years doing a production to the rest of school or parents that involved wearing no top. I had no choice in that either.
Interesting and hypocritical how all the PE teachers were content to stand around and take part in vigorous lesson activity while wearing their own tops while barking orders at their stripped bare pupils like me, presumably those tops got quite sweaty after 3 or 4 classes per day too. Should they not have at least been an example to us boy pupils and dressed accordingly as well?

Dan, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Initially I felt a bit self conscious doing PE barechested but after a few weeks I thought nothing of it. No way would I have wanted to return to the shorts and shirt PE kit rule, doing PE topless was way better than having a hot and sweaty vest or t shirt stuck to your back.

Totally agree Dan. We were worked hard and very soon running with sweat and glad we were only wearing shorts which we were glad to get out of and into the showers afterwards.

Greg, I'd go one step further and say mandatory skins for all. They're supposed to be boys and boys do not need either shirts or vests in the gym.

Half skins and half in vests on a weekly rotation and work them so they sweat, it's not harsh it's life experience.

From my memories of my early days in Secondary school, it was the going into the changing room for the first time aged 11 and having to undress in front of other boys, especially as we had to remove our pants for P.E. None of my friends form my Junior school that went to that school with me whereas the other boys had their friends with them. So I felt out of it at first but soon got used to it. Part of growing up!!
Ric like you our gym has a communal changing area and showers. Which I think is better than trying to change in the restricted area of a cubicle. My concern is when am unaccompanied lad comes in to change for the pool, and I am undressed, because so much emphasis is put on safeguarding issues. I think grabbing my towel and quickly an obviously covering up only makes the situation worse

Tom B, I was fortunate that the Grammar school I attended had a policy of showering after P.E. and games. Although at the time I might not have been thankful of the rule. I know what you mean about missing out on the bonding which goes with it. There was mainly high spirited discussion of the match and the tactics used. There was always one or two in the year who were more confident about the naked aspect of the session of sport. I too wished I had been more at ease with regime rather than being defensive in my character it would have been more relaxed and enjoyable.

I very much agree with Rics point of view regarding communal showers and it is my regret that, because I wasn’t forced to shower, I didn’t get involved.

In retrospect while I may not have appreciated compulsory showers at the time I feel I missed out on the bonding experience because of my shyness.

Very few boys showered regularly though there was one who showered after every PE and games lesson. He would also leave his towel with his kit bag and walk across the changing room naked.

I really admired his confidence and wish I had had the same.

Apart from the bare-chests, this could have been my secondary school gym back towards the end of the 1950s, with the same wall-bars, ropes, box and polished wooden floor. Unlike today, buying school uniform back then was a relatively straightforward affair, just a blazer, tie and cap from a specified school outfitters in the town, with everything else, within broad guidelines, left to personal choice: white shirt, grey trousers, black shoes etc. PE kit was similar. Provided you had a top, a pair of shorts and a pair of white-soled plimsolls - and woe betide anyone who ventured onto that polished floor in plimsolls with black soles - you were good to go. A few of my intake year had the recommended PE top, but simple economics led to most of us repurposing the underwear vests that we already owned, but increasingly chose not to wear, especially as the weather grew warmer, despite the usual maternal concerns regarding hypothermia and pneumonia. Until we discovered jock-straps, most of us went commando, although it wasn't compulsory. Inevitably, it wasn't long before the occasional individual would appear in the gym topless, having "forgotten" to put a suitable top in his bag on PE days. Our PE teacher, very easygoing compared to many of the characters depicted here, responded pragmatically to this apparent violation of the uniform regulations by calling us together one morning and announcing that from henceforth, PE tops were optional. No fuss, no threats no punishment beatings, just plain common sense, greeted with a brief cheer followed by a rapid discarding of vests all round.

On communal showers, they were a bit off the first few times but I quickly got used to them as did others. As an adult playing sport or going to the gym, communal showers remained the norm and I always found them a strangely sociable place, as a mate once said, there was no pretence and nothing to hide when you were naked in a gang of other men. My gym still has them and to me it's much more healthy than everyone hiding in cublicles.

For years, three times a week, I had a shower after games/PE sessions, yet I cannot see that it did me any psychological or, indeed, any other damage.

Without a shower, I would have felt most uncomfortable, having to stay dirty and sweaty for the remainder of the day.

The only problem with showering was the short time allowed for us to get properly dried afterwards, before our next lesson was due to begin.

All too often we arrived at the classroom looking, as one teacher put it, "like a bunch of drowned rats!"

I think its best to totally ignore Mr Dando's postings as he seems to me as he has serious issues in his life and needs to address them rather than giving this site the same old tirade of garbage, he seems to live permanently in a "bubble". I like others had showers back in the late 50's and early 60's at school, they weren't compulsory and some boys just opted to wash their legs and chests using a sink after football.

Being the only boy in a family with 3 girls I appreciated a good shower as I could never get into our small bathroom for a good soak, in the gym we were bare chested and bare foot, outside it was shorts and tee shirt and black plimsolls for track sports and cross country.