Burnley Grammar School

This is directed at Janet and the other teachers who had boys go shirtless in mixed lessons. I present quotes from a comment posted under another photo on this site:

"I was forced into those kind of situations at school a lot at that age in the early 90s where girls shared the school gym alongside boys such as myself who had to present ourselves for our teacher in gym shorts and shirtless. There was a girl who had to hold onto me in PE and touched my bare nipple and made a bit of a thing about that in the playground after PE, so embarrassing"

There was more in this comment, but these were the most relevant quotes that describe an incident I'd like the teachers' thoughts on.

Specifically, I'd like to ask the teachers who posted on this site:

1. If one of your male students told you this happened to him, would you believe him? What would be your response?
2. If you witnessed this occurring yourself, what would you do?
3. Would this have convinced you to let boys wear tops if they wanted to?
4. Assuming this actually happened, how serious would you/your school consider this incident? On a scale of insignificant to expulsion worthy and beyond.

Comment by: Tony on 3rd April 2024 at 12:56


I.."I suspect that in cases such as this there are far more quiet victims who never come forward and say anything at all. I'm reminded of a friend I had who had a term getting secretly bullied by two boys at school and was so ashamed he would not tell anyone because he thought it reflected badly on him and made him look weak and pathetic."


I really agree with this. I myself was bullied because I was about the youngest and smallest kid in my class especially in the first two years, and you feel helpless and hopeless. The kids who do it would have denied it, the teachers, not wanting trouble, would have accepted those denials (and even when they saw incidents in the playground would look the other way), and if there were problems at home, an 11/12 year old's would have looked small fry. Of course there is that element of making you feel weak and pathetic, and embarrassed.

I hasten to add that my problems were not on the scale of the children's home kids we have been talking about, or even in my own school. One of my best friends was bullied unmercifully, and had a very unhappy home life. - he died, after an illness, in December 2022. I was luckier than him in all respects.

I think the police must be very sure of their case to name the man concerned who has been on the run for 27 years, and to have spent so long hunting him down.

Comment by: TimH on 3rd April 2024 at 15:08


I was just making the point Tim that we all get older - to take the argument to it's logical conclusion, had Hitler lived another thirty/forty years he, too, would have been an old man, possibly with a walking stick - would anyone feel sorry for him?. We will never know the damage he inflicted on already damaged children 50 years ago - some sympathy for them would not come amiss.

On your unfounded and incorrect insinuations about my posts - where do you imagine I can possibly go at 4 or 5 in the mornings to send all these messages?. I can assure you I am at my home, and ALL messages I have sent since this childish argument developed last autumn have carried my email address.

Everyone has a unique writing style, and I repeat I only write for myself as myself. - as a Yorkshireman would say - I say what I mean and I mean what I bloody well say. I am a Londoner by the way.

I do not intend to answer any more of these ludicrous insinuations, I know I am telling the truth, and you should be able to tell different writing styles.., as well as punctuation etc.

As it was me who suggested the IP system in the first place to stop all the puerile nonsense about me being about six different posters, I am hardly likely to sabotage it, am I?.

I can't explain why these different numbers crop up, but I am happy for you that you have nothing better to do than count them.

I am having a quiet week myself, Tim, , but not THAT quiet!

A lot more than 21 posts actually Malcolm.

I'm more amazed that you've posted 117 posts - ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTEEN on the thread since the IP tags started only three months ago Alan and that so many of them are written in the middle of the night and are actually quite lengthy too. Yes I counted back I was so curious after seeing Tim and Malcolm's comments.

It's not really a criticism, I almost admire your persistence with it all if that's your thing. The IP's don't really have any meaning do they Tim.

Comment by: TimH on 3rd April 2024 at 15:15

I'm not sure that means a great deal.

I know this is belated and she may not see it, but just to say: thank you, Janet, for answering my question and for contributing your recollections.

Please stop talking in riddles. If you have any proof of anything not seeming quite right then provide it openly or inform the moderator. Actually it is their job to be aware of things and vet posts before they appear anyway.

To answer your question Sean, the only person who must have made at least twenty one comments in the past three months is Alan isn't it. It was only a matter of time before someone showed their hand on here and said they'd been checking through all the IP numbers, I'm surprised it took so long.

I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the IP numbering along the bottom of posts here and pay them no attention, I take each actual comment as it comes along for what it's worth and leave it at that.

May I suggest that this is not something that needs to divert the conversation here and if there is anyone who wishes to make a thing of it then there are means to go direct to the moderator of this site.

@Sean - I'm not Chris G but the ISPs I got from the start until, say five weeks ago were:
3.254
3.221
3.235 4
3.248 2
3.230
3.226 4
3.244 11
3.225 2
3.212 12
3.129 22
3.160 2
3.237 2
3.132 4
3.144

The second number was the number of times used, although not sequentially. (I hope the formatting works!)

Work, work, work ...

Alan's recent comments on my post of 18.30 on the 2nd, which didn't mention him.

Alan: You say: 'If he had faced the music in 1997 he would be a free man now having paid his debt to decent society' - this assumes his guilt - remember; 'Innocent until proven guilty'. Have you ever known anyone who was innocent being found guilty? I have ...

You mentioned. I think, an old phrase - an 'Eye for an Eye, ...'. There is another old phrase: 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.

And remember - I called the guy 'despicable' ...

Chris G, maybe you can be brave enough to tell us who you are talking about here and list the 21. I'm intrigued by your findings which you obviously had enough time to go finding out!

@ Chris G - your figure doesn't surprise me. I ran a check a few weeks ago and reached 14, but with ISPs not following each other sequentially - it was all very random. If I were getting these results on my PC set-up I think I'd be wanting to make a few enquiries with my Internet Service Provider.

And I, too, have better things to do.

Not a Bot

T

Tim H

Trivial, I know, and I actually have better things to do with my life, but you might be intrigued to know that the poster that you allude to has had no less than twenty-one different IP addresses logged since the system was introduced at the end of December.

I'd suggest that the 80 year old whose been on the run for 27 years must certainly be gaga, the term used here, simply for the fact he came back into the country through Heathrow and thought he wasn't going to get picked up just because 27 years had gone by. The law never forgets absconders like that.

I also agree with you Alan, I don't know full details of his story but I have no sympathy at all and what you say I agree with every word actually, you might be pleased to know! I suspect that in cases such as this there are far more quiet victims who never come forward and say anything at all. I'm reminded of a friend I had who had a term getting secretly bullied by two boys at school and was so ashamed he would not tell anyone because he thought it reflected badly on him and made him look weak and pathetic.

It occurs to me that a lot of readers will not be aware of the case Tim and myself were discussing. At the risk of being accused of trawling the newspapers again, I append one report:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/richard-burrows-most-wanted-fugitive-arrested-heathrow-london-thailand-b1148877.html


Offences in a childrens home - how low can you get?. Those kids had problems already. It's even worse than at school - at least you can go home - these children WERE "at home". Those men and women will now be in their sixties. those who have survived..

Interesting that the accused had been in Thailand - given that country's reputation with the likes of Gary Glitter. I assume it was a bit like the Ronnie Biggs case - went on the run for years, then, when the money ran out, and health problems came along, they both decided to return home for free treatment.

Almost everyone showed reluctance about heading into the showers at school when I first faced them in 1980 and if they had not been compulsory and we had not been forced into doing it I very much doubt many of us would have gone in them at PE time.

Comment by: TimH on 2nd April 2024 at 18:32



..."Finally - on the TV news tonight there was a bit about:
An 80-year-old suspected paedophile ... arrested at Heathrow after nearly 30 years on the run over allegations of historical sexual abuse against young boys.
Despicable actions ... but I saw a shambling, partially deaf, frightened old man, walking with a stick - not many years older than me - 'every person should be presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty'."

If only I had played the violin instead of the trumpet I would have given a rendition of Hearts & Flowers, Tim.

This now old man was arrested and charged when he was 53. he ran away to escape his trial 27 years ago. That in itself speaks volumes, in my opinion. Hardly the actions of an innocent man (a bit like the two teachers of similar ages fighting extradition to Scotland from South Africa where they ran away to after being charged with historical sex crimes of a disgusting nature). He might be partially deaf and walk with a stick, but he wasn't; and didn't when he committed the offences for which he is charged. His victims have got older too, and they probably remember every day what was done to them.

Don't waste your sympathy on him, Tim - no doubt when he shambles into court he will have been instructed by his defence barrister to appear as gaga as possible. Even IF he gets a custodial sentence, you can be sure he will spend it in the hospital prison, and get early release. In my view, men like this, who commit appalling crimes, ought to feel the full vigour of the law, whether they committed the offence last year or sometime in the 1970s.

Where do you draw the line?. When does somebody become too old to face justice, a sort of perk of old age? - and when does a victim become too old to expect justice for something done to them in childhood or young adulthood? What age should we wipe the slate clean?

If he had faced the music in 1997 he would be a free man now having paid his debt to decent society

I started at grammar school in 1967 after passing my 11+.

We had very exacting and high dress codes at school even for PE. The gym was supposed to be white plimsolls at the time, no socks on that I remember, white shorts that were very short and a thin white vest. All whites in other words. We would be checked over to make sure we were up to scratch for PE. Everything had to be clean and well pressed without creases. If our plimsolls were considered too dirty or had not been cleaned properly, or smelled, then you would be made to take them off and do the gym without anything on your feet at all. This happened quite a lot actually. If your gym vest looked anything other than spotless and fresh for that day's lesson, or creased, it had to come off there and then and you were not allowed to have anything on above your waist, it was the bare chest instead. This was also quite frequent. Most gym had at least a couple of boys like that. Some PE masters were stricter than others. Any nonsense in the school gym or need for a telling off meant you got the cold shower treatment at the end and had to wait for the other boys to have their warm shower before being sent in cold instead. This also happened rather a lot too. Nobody was allowed to refuse a shower after PE. The masters could deal you with the slipper or plimsoll on the spot in the gym if they so wished for more serious troublemakers or continued unauthorised absences, truanting in other words, or even continued lateness. The gym was a very draughty and echoey place with a dusty floor with a certain gym like atmosphere and smell about it.

Coming outside for team games we did this in all weathers. Take rugby for example, there was no real separating of the abilities, all of us were meant to be dragged up to reach the highest standard of play. Cuts and bruises were expected and throwing ourselves about was demanded. Nobody was allowed to leave the rugby pitch looking anything other than completely wrecked as if they'd been dragged through a hedge backwards, it was about dirt, sweat and a bit of blood sometimes, not trying to avoid it. Minor fractures in PE were shockingly commonplace after team sports on the school fields, and even the occasional broken arm or leg, every year seemed to be someone with this.

We wore our house colours outside for PE and things were not quite as strict on the state of that kit as it was for the gym whites. The head of PE often took us on the school cross country through the nearby lanes surrounding school. Other masters also took us for cross country in our house colours but the head guy always took us out stripped down without the house shirt on, and we ran in a state of shirtlessness with a large collection of very white and very trim looking young bare chested youths, again in all weathers come rain or shine. Too slow and you got made to run with your hands on your head until told otherwise quite often with one master. I always remember some of the more nerdy boys in national health spectacles running these lessons looking like fish out of water with their pasty thin white bodies and flushed red faces out of breath, but we were all in it together and never heard a complaint about it. It was tough but undoubtedly kept all of us fit for some kind of purpose.

Comment by: James Finch on 2nd April 2024 at 19:25
“Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired.”



This quote is surely directed at Alan isn't it?

Alan, you have expressed a liking for classical music I have read. Do you know of this quote by Aristotle;

'Our youth should also be educated with music and physical education'

Comment by: Greg2 on 2nd April 2024 at 16:57
Comment by: Amanda on 1st April 2024 at 15:46
As much as anything else I think this is an example of the usual double standards coming into play here, Amanda. No one ever really gave a damn about boys privacy, which is something boys had to learn fast in the past. Hasn't your son's generation had to learn this? I was beginning to think that things had improved, but maybe not. It seems that this is a version of the old double standards, but with a modern up to date twist. I don’t think she/he will mind.
I doubt you need worry about it ever becoming acceptable the other way around, where girls’ privacy was being encroached. This would be a huge, national news scandal, wouldn’t it.




Isn't it interesting Greg that when the woman is in with the boys, as a man, there is little or no obvious newsworthyness in it, yet as you say, if a man was in with the girls it would likely be scandalising the nation and in the tabloids and on GB News and Talk TV all day long.

Where Janet is concerned I think she just about gets away with it as a primary teacher. I had women in my middle school changing room for PE back in the early 70s, although no showers were involved there but she saw us down to our pants only and paid close attention to what we did before leading us out to PE. The girls were left alone, they were presumed to behave while boys had to be watched because we couldn't be trusted as much. It would have been very different if Janet had mentioned doing what she did at primary in the 70s at secondary level and looking at a bunch of post puberty young chaps with developed hairy willies. Boys modesty may not be much of a thing but even so, no teacher such as Janet would ever be allowed that kind of access after age eleven, well I should certainly hope not anyway.

For myself I found being made to shower, be naked among others or take the frequent shirtless lessons in the gym ultimately gave me a better body image about myself and others and also not to be too judgemental either I suppose. We had to learn fast to accept such things whether we liked it or not.

“Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired.”

I wasn't going to post this but:

On the question of ISPs, as Chris G says, ISPs are, I understand, allocated to your router, not your PC, tablet, etc., so if you are at different location to your 'home' one you get a different ISP (although when I re-boot my router I retain the original ISP). So - I could be going from place to place, logging in and making posts under another name - but don't worry - I'm not.

What intrigues me is that one user seems to change his/her ISP on a very frequent basis - three on this page alone. Most intriguing.

Janet was a 'person in authority' and as a teacher '... expects their wishes to be carried out, otherwise they would have no authority'. In my life I have to use use phrases like 'Could I ask you to stay on that side of the rope, please?' or 'Could I see your tickets, please?' - in both cases - I am telling them what I want.

And Janet 'left' teaching in 1995 - mid 90s by my estimation, not the 'late 90s' as someone suggested.

Finally - on the TV news tonight there was a bit about:
An 80-year-old suspected paedophile ... arrested at Heathrow after nearly 30 years on the run over allegations of historical sexual abuse against young boys.
Despicable actions ... but I saw a shambling, partially deaf, frightened old man, walking with a stick - not many years older than me - 'every person should be presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty'.

Comment by: Janet on 31st March 2024 at 04:11 and 1st April 2024 at 23:31
'Between 1976-79 I worked at a primary school and took boys PE, girls PE and mixed PE, once again boys (8-11) took much of the gym PE with a bare chest. In this school I also had access all areas when required. Both schools required showering after PE for everyone. Male teachers supervised boys at secondary, I was able to do so at primary. There were no complaints.'

'You are quite right Greg, this was a woman's prerogative and a man could not do so with young girls at school.'

This just got me thinking. What is it in our culture that makes us believe that a girl’s privacy must be strictly protected at all costs, and kept away from any male eyes, but with boys, it doesn’t really matter who sees them. Even with small children? I’ve nothing against nudity at all, but I’d much rather we had a culture that dealt with it equally. They don’t worry about this in any way in Scandinavian countries, where I’ve worked many times. In fact both girls and boys of junior school age sometimes shower together, and can be supervised by either men or women. It’s not a big deal for anyone and a far more healthy attitude.

I spent some time in Germany growing up. They weren’t that bothered by nudity there either, but it didn't seem fair to me, which I noticed even at the age of 7. I remember playing on a park while meine Mama und Oma sat on a bench waiting after we’d been shopping. I played on a climbing frame in a sandy area where you had to have bare feet. There were other apparatus to play on nearby. There was a shallow, paddling pool not far away, which I didn’t bother with. A few other kids were about. I started to notice that some of the boys had nothing on, but most girls wore swimming costumes. Soon a mother arrived with three children and sat on a bench near my mum and gran. A boy who looked a bit older than me; a girl perhaps my age or younger, and a little brother about 3. The mother helped the girl into a costume while the older boy was getting ready. When the girl was done she ran off to the water, and then the mother then helped the boy, but didn’t put any swimming trunks on him! He then ran over to climb on the frame near me. A few girls eventually turned up to climb on the frame, and they were certainly sniggering together because of the boy. I don’t know whether he was bothered or not, but I remember feeling more embarrassed than he seemed to be. I soon got fed up with it and went to my mum and said I was ready to go home now. I’ve ofter wondered why mothers mostly completely undressed their sons but not their daughters?

Comment by: Amanda on 1st April 2024 at 15:46
As much as anything else I think this is an example of the usual double standards coming into play here, Amanda. No one ever really gave a damn about boys privacy, which is something boys had to learn fast in the past. Hasn't your son's generation had to learn this? I was beginning to think that things had improved, but maybe not. It seems that this is a version of the old double standards, but with a modern up to date twist. I don’t think she/he will mind.

I doubt you need worry about it ever becoming acceptable the other way around, where girls’ privacy was being encroached. This would be a huge, national news scandal, wouldn’t it.

You are always willing and able to counter quite normal people with such extreme arguments and pedantry aren't you Alan. Now you are tearing an admittedly ageing former schoolteacher apart over the fact she dared to take some lessons with boys without shirts 45 plus years back in the past and stood near a shower area, and you yourself tell us you went to an all boys school so none of this will have ever affected you personally anyway.

Comment by: Janet on 1st April 2024 at 23:31

".....I've been picked up on my use of words like "told to" and "asked to" which in teaching terms mean largely the same thing to all intents and purposes. A teacher is an authority figure of course and expects their wishes to be carried out, otherwise they would have no authority. As a teacher you do not expect to be answered back to......"


"....How could anyone think of teachers as nothing more than petty officials mad on power. That's so unfair and unkind and simply untrue in almost all cases......"


Firstly the definition of authority (courtesy Encyclopaedia Britannica):

Britannica Dictionary definition of AUTHORITY. 1. [noncount] : the power to give orders or make decisions : the power or right to direct or control someone or something.


With all due respect, Janet, I think your first paragraph there, answers the second.

Children and young adults are not dogs, being trained for Crufts. They have feelings and should have a right to question anything they are "told/asked" to do, if they don't feel comfortable doing it. Also, you never met some of the teachers it was my misfortune to encounter. Asking a question should never be considered "answering back" - that way lies North Korea, China and Russia.

Authority IS power - just another word for it.

Just to end on a note of agreement, I totally concur that this idea of men dressing up as women (and looking much like drag from the Carry-Ons or Monty Python) or women as men should be totally banned in schools, no if's, no but's. It is unnatural and disconcerting for children and could warp them for life. IF - (a big if) - there is a place for such dubious behaviour then that place is playing Widow Twankey in the theatre pantomimes of December., where one expects to be confronted by the grotesque. This country seems to becoming more and more sick and unhinged by the week.

Comment by: Robbie on 1st April 2024 at 22:29

"What I've noticed is that when a female comes along and states her position on what she considers an acceptable form of PE dress for boys, and mentions the dreaded bare chest herself like Janet did, then it seems to be even worse to some than when the men say it for some reason......."

I don't think it is that, Robbie, for me exactly, but Janet mentioned that she worked from the seventies till quite late in the nineties, and she didn't specify which age groups she was teaching at what time in that span. If we have to accept that people can now change their gender, we should also accept that some boys would feel uncomfortable, especially older ones, being thus (un)attired with a woman teacher.

By the late 90s my schooldays were long in the past, and in my case, I perhaps always thought (hoped?) that the practices of the old days had been jettisoned - they did not include women gym mistresses anyway for boys in our school - perhaps I was naive in that respect?. I think that is why the revelations of the Royal Liberty saga, for example, genuinely shocked me even more, to think that such situations were going on long after I felt safe and secure away from school. I do consider the feelings of other people, not just myself.

Now, as Amanda told us last night, we have transvestite teachers in P.E. departments, it seems the world is even more crazy and mixed up - perhaps "back then" WAS a bit better, at least there were only two sexes at that time.

To reassure Chris, I am writing this on my sofa, as both the Post Office in WH Smith and Costa Coffee are both, I imagine, closed, and our first bus, which I would need to get there, doesn't depart till 5.25 - and I am not walking in this weather - it's pouring with rain. Anyway, I never drink coffee!

Well I've been taken a bit by surprise at the reaction my little comment has stirred here.

I'm not quite sure what the comment by Chris mixing me with two others is supposed to mean but I shall leave that aside as unimportant.

I've been picked up on my use of words like "told to" and "asked to" which in teaching terms mean largely the same thing to all intents and purposes. A teacher is an authority figure of course and expects their wishes to be carried out, otherwise they would have no authority. As a teacher you do not expect to be answered back to.

When I worked in primary education I followed the standards set by the school, its head teacher and governors at the time. Boys at the primary school and the parents all knew they would turn out for PE in most cases indoors in PE not requiring tops of any type. This was seen as a completely normal standard of PE dress for boys at the time. It was also my job to make sure that all children doing PE had a quick shower afterwards, including girls at secondary school. Where the boys were concerned at the primary school I can reassure that sensible discretion was applied and there was no standing directly in line watching, just standing aside but being aware of proceedings.

How could anyone think of teachers as nothing more than petty officials mad on power. That's so unfair and unkind and simply untrue in almost all cases.

I actually taught in St Albans, Hertfordshire Matthew and there were differences between many local authorities you are correct there.

To Greg, teachers may not like to admit so much but they do have their favourite pupils and I have a number who I recall with a deep sense of fondness to this day. I cannot comment on your over familiar comment without knowing the details of the meaning behind it but I could imagine sometimes young people may misinterpret something along the way. Boys at primary school in the late 1970s did not really take a shower in front of me but more in the vicinity of. Perhaps it's best described as keeping a lookout out the corner of one eye. You are quite right Greg, this was a woman's prerogative and a man could not do so with young girls at school. It wasn't so much that I felt comfortable saying it, or necessary, rather just laying down the basic facts as they happened a very long time ago now, although very fresh still in my own ageing mind.

I saw the comment about the trans teacher earlier and do find that uncomfortable and rules need to be tightened up on that issue I feel where there is a chance of a man saying he is now a woman and being allowed into girls and womens areas, especially where school is concerned.

I don't think that is contradictory concerning my own past however. Many female teachers in the era of the 1970s freely entered boys changing rooms at school for PE and swimming lessons.

What I've noticed is that when a female comes along and states her position on what she considers an acceptable form of PE dress for boys, and mentions the dreaded bare chest herself like Janet did, then it seems to be even worse to some than when the men say it for some reason. I don't know if I've imagined that. Some of what Janet said rings right to me, we always had female teachers lingering around the boys changing for PE lessons in our middle school because there was no alternative really.

It's getting ever harder it seems for people to clearly separate the present from the past and judge each accordingly. Thus we get bad reactions to the likes of people such as Janet for instance who says she was looking in on her primary class boys changing and even showering in the 70s without realising, even if we were there ourselves at the time, that it was just rather normal behaviour back then to do so and there was unlikely to be anymore to it than that.

Well I've never had Greg2 down as a shill of Alan's so that was amusing to read here tonight.

Look, I've been quite sympathetic to some of what Alan says in the past but that doesn't mean I am not prepared to be critical when I think needs must.

I'm looking forward to hearing from Craig about the Easter Monday barechest run from his whatsapp group he was mentioning here a few days ago, so if you are reading this Craig let us know how it went and if you got those numbers you spoke of.

To Chris G.

Don't start all that nonsense again please, and I'm no 'sock puppet' as you put it either and have big disagreements with Alan on a lot of issues. I'm not sure too many people are posting from coffee shops or public libraries at the times shown in those posts either and certainly not on Easter Sundays like the Janet one. From what I can see my IP address has remained the same with each post so far. The IP address tagging seems to have been working well to weed out the worst excesses here.