Burnley Grammar School

I would tend to agree with the views expressed by Willy (21stApril) in his final paragraph.
I started teaching at the same time as Mr Anderson so can empathise with the traditions that were prevalent at the time. However, in my city suburb secondary modern school nobody but the Head or his deputy was allowed to use the cane; and they only used it very rarely for extreme bad behaviour - bullying, vandalism or theft. If pupils were sent to the Head they knew they had done something seriously wrong and parents were likely to be informed which would often mean additional punishment.
We were allowed to slipper pupils, always when they were dressed, and never more than once or twice. This was usual for unacceptable or dangerous behaviour, or forgetting kit. Most pupils scrounged kit from friends in other classes before a lesson to avoid a whack or having to use 'lost property' kit. A quick slap with a slipper showed the rest of the class that they had received a punishment and they could then play a full part in the lesson without missing their education - they mostly preferred this to wasting time in detention or writing lines.
I had learnt very quickly that consistency and fairness were always respected by pupils. 'Letting someone off' for a misdemeanour had to be seen as fair by the rest of the class and not something that could be expected. You didn't gain the respect of pupils by constantly beating, belittling and humiliating them. They worked best for you when you explained why they needed to do something your way, and praising them for their achievements not emphasising their shortcomings.
So far as dress was concerned in PE pupils changed out of all their usual classroom clothes. They wore shirts for gym lessons, cross country and football, but thought nothing of playing 'shirts versus skins' in the gym or being shirtless outdoors on a hot summers day doing athletics or tennis. Every boy saw the variety of body shapes of his peers when they changed and showered, so to play a game without a shirt on meant nothing to them.

Andy, thank you for your questions - as a schoolboy I would only ever have addressed you by your surname!

White T shirts became part of the PE kit at school in about 1976 but it was quite a few years before wearing them became a norm. Lads who had never had a shirt didn't see the need for them and new lads thought it more manly not to wear one so they came in gradually over quite a few years. While teaching I never wore a shirt right up to 1982. The staff started wearing them eventually - after I stopped teaching PE but I'm not sure when.

Caning a boy in public is I think humiliating. Having had the cane myself as a boy I knew exactly how much it hurt and it did bring most boys to tears so I would never have given it in public, there is nothing right about humiliating a boy in front of his peers.

I carefully weighed up my choice of punishment instrument. The point of corporal punishment is to cause pain and deter a boy from further wrong doing.

Of the choices I had there was the plimsoll which on application covers a significant area of the buttock, it can easily leave quite a large bruise on each cheek which makes life very uncomfortable for the boy for quite a few days afterwards.

Canes come in various thicknesses. A thick and heavy cane will cause deep pain and burning at the time and for several days afterwards. It risks breaking the skin if one stroke crosses another and again I would never have wanted a boy to suffer in the longer term for his wrong doing.

I used a much lighter cane about 3/8" thick. When the lad felt the stroke it would be extremely painful but the pain would pass quickly in about an hour or so and to me that was quite long enough for a boy to have a sore bottom. He would probably have marks on his bottom for a couple of days and they would then disappear very quickly. A caning from me would be something very unpleasant, a lot worse than the plimsol or a heavier cane but it would be over quickly with no lasting effect.

Lads didn't resent the cane, they knew the penalty for wrong doing and took the consequences of it. I don't ever remember a boy asking to be let off or have the dose reduced - he would not have been able to face his peers had he done and while no punishment was witnessed by another boy the lines on his bottom were always checked in the showers afterwards.

I still see lads around who I taught and I'm amazed how many still like to buy me a beer - far more than I can drink at my age - so they can't have any resentment of me and when we chat we certainly don't refer to those days, we have what I would describe as normal adult conversation.

I'll leave our two other posters who seem to want to sniff abuse out where there wasn't any to wallow in their own misery, they will be happy there. To those people I would say save your mewling and puking, I'm not interested in your perverted views of the norms of another time.

I'm always concerned about people who want to find abuse where there wasn't any by applying different norms and values to a situation they probably didn't experience or understand. They are often people associated with what I've heard referred to as the 'Abuse Industry' made up of social workers, lawyers and other people who lack purpose in their lives and who have to find victims where there aren't any and who depend on chasing down abuse fantasy for their own livelihoods. Those people do one any good except themselves and their own bank balances. The other sort of people who are obsessed with abuse should probably seek counselling for their own disturbed state of mind.

We have gone fom one extreme to the other in both PE kit requirements and physical punishments in schools.
What "Mr. Anderson" describes as normal punishment of caning boys on their bare buttocks is certainly harsh and abusive in my opinion.
However using a slipper or a few slaps on the backside , as was normal at my school, should still be reserved in schools. The cane was never used at the schools I went to. I think it was more of a private school custom where tradition dies hard. Same for the nude swimming practice.
I had friends who went to private boarding schools where both the cane and compulsary nude swimming were used.

I also think outdoor and cross country runs in just thin shorts and topless, especially in winter, was harsh and abusive. This is especially so when one considers that the coaches themselves always wore protective winter clothing like woollen tops when running and accampanying the boys on these runs.

So I consider all the above customs were a form of sadism and humiliation of young boys, allowed by the State, which are rightly considered as abuse today.
This does not include nude showering after PE or mild physical punishment which both serve a good purpose. I think the middle way is best, and not the extreme form of modesty and no punishment that we have gone to today.

There has been discussion here about abuse. While I would not consider making boys strip to the waist for PE or swim without trunks, I can only consider recent descriptions of punishment as abuse. "Mr. Anderson" speaks coldly about the form his took. He practiced his craft until he found that a thin cane was best to administer "an immediate and excruciating sting generating a volcanic level of burning" while "even sixth form lads would be bouncing up and down on their toes after four strokes". Since it would appear that the punishment for a sixth former was an arbitrary eight strokes, surely - aside from whether it was abuse in the first place - if a boy was in such distress, knowing that four more strokes were to come, I can only regard that as abuse. I wonder if any boy ever begged him to stop. I would like to think that, with hindsight, "Mr. Anderson" feels ashamed of what he did. I don't get the impression that he does.

Mr Anderson (Sir, when I was at school!)

Thank you for your interesting and detailed posting, nice to hear a teacher's viewpoint.

A couple of questions :-

I just wondered if the shirtless kit (both inside and outside) stayed the same until you left PE teaching in 1982 (or beyond that at the school, if you know).

While it was allowed, did the caning/slippering regime stay the same. I'm interested to hear you caned lads in private - to me, being caned in the gym in front of classmates (as at my school, shorts on) added significantly to the punishment.

Thanks.

I started teaching PE at a boy's grammar school in 1968 and I certainly remember having a gym like the one in the picture, the school was only five years old so very modern for the times considering many schools were still in builds that pre-dated the first world war never mind the second.

I had graduated with a degree in history and it was a history post I wanted but at interview I was told that I would also be required to teach PE for part of the week, I wasn't disagreeable with that, I was young and fit and played rugby in season. When I started I was told a change in priorities meant I was doing 90% PE and 10% history.

The PE department had four staff, all but the head on the same basis as me with another subject but all teaching mostly PE and it included sessions at lunchtimes, after school and on Saturdays for matches and competitions.

The lads were aged 11-18 and had all passed the 11+ to gain a place at grammar school so all had at least academic ability and many were pretty good at sports and games too. I stayed teaching PE in part until 1982 when I went full time to teach history.

So to the points people raise here. Kit was in the school a pair of plimsols and a pair of white cotton shorts. If there was a competition or match against another school kit was provided by the school and was then black cotton shorts and a gold and blue jersey, we had them in all sizes and a lad was issued with kit before a match, it had to be returned clean a couple of days after the match. The reason every lad was not required to have one was simply financial, not every lad's parents could afford to buy additional kit that might never be used or rarely so there was a pool of 'common kit' for events.

If we had internal competition then lads would be issued with a coloured band to wear across the chest to identify their team and these were handed back at the end of each class. Bare chest was the norm simply because lads didn't have shirts to wear so a run outside or a game of football or rugby in icy weather was in shorts and plimsols.

At the beginning I wore plimsols too but after a couple of years bought myself trainers - in their infancy then compared to the technical shoes you get today but wearing them all day they were more comfortable than plimsols. As staff we generally wore black cotton shorts and no shirts again whatever the weather so alongside the lads we knew just how cold it was but also on a warmer day just how pleasant it was to be bare chested out on the fields.

The school changing room was a vast space, there was room for four classes to change at once if need be as there were four teachers so room for about 120 lads if need be. There were rows of benches facing each other and between each row was room for fifteen lads on each side so classes were meant to stay together when changing.

There were no partitions and certainly no privacy. Lads were told to take off their underpants when changing. The reason behind this was one of hygiene. In those days mothers did not have automatic washing machines and it was quite common that people only had a couple of changes of clothes. In PE everyone including the staff got hot and sweaty and as no one had spare underpants it was sensible to take them off when changing. The rule was enforced and any lad found to be disobeying had his bottom warmed!

Showers were communal, I never questioned it, it was how showers in changing rooms were and I had never seen anything different in a men's changing room. There was room for 120 lads to shower at one go. I can't remember any lad trying to avoid having a shower, most were glad of it in a world where a weekly bath was the norm and showers at school were a luxury.

The facilities we had as staff offered no privacy from each other either. There was an office we shared and off that a changing room for the four of us with a bench and pegs above it and on the other side of the room four shower heads, no partitioning, just as communal as the ones the lads had. We used them daily - at least once. I do remember wondering whether as a master I was supposed to take off my underpants when changing too on my first day then I noted the clothes of two of my colleagues on their pegs and each was topped with a pair of underpants and why not, the same reasons as applied to the lads applied to us and of course over a couple of days I had showered with them too.

We didn't supervise the lads closely at all when they were changing or showering, only if things got rowdy did we intervene and that was usually just to appear, blow a whistle and warn everyone to calm down and to stand for a minute or so until everyone go the message. What I would say is that in that sort of situation day in and day out you don't really notice how dressed or naked lads are, they are being rowdy or not and the purpose of the intervention is to calm things down.

When the warnings didn't work there was of course a sanction and we had both the trusty plimsol and the cane available. We were allowed to use either and the only rules were that it was to be used on the bottom and not more than twelve strokes. I'd had both as a boy and mended my ways as a result.

We didn't use the slipper or the cane that much, probably between us two or three times each week and more often than not it was for sheer stupidity in the gym rather than anything else. A school gym in those days could be a very dangerous place and huge injuries could occur if lads did not do exactly as they were told. Any smart Alec who thought he knew best would be guaranteed to suffer the consequences.

A couple of my colleagues used to deal with lads in front of the class over the horse. I preferred to see lads one at a time in the office as I didn't like humiliating them in public, it was bad enough for them standing outside the office with everyone knowing what they were waiting for without having it witnessed.

With bit of experience, my preferred method of punishment was the cane on bare bottom. Bare bottom because then I could see exactly the impact of a stroke before giving the next one and the cane because with the plimsol you just whack away probably bruising deeply after three or four whacks.

Canes come in various thicknesses and can achieve very different results. My preference was for a fairly light one which caused an immediate and excrutiating sting and generating a volcanic level of burning but which calmed down in an hour or so and the marks would disappear in two to three days. Even sixth form lads would be bouncing up and down on their toes after four strokes with it. Junior lads generally got four and more senior lads eight, I never gave more than eight.

Well, I've read some of the comments here and felt inclined to add mine. Our PT (physical toughness) lessons were like the photo above. The first lesson I was picked at random to demonstrate skins (vest off boy!) soon after the class were stripped down. Our teacher was very hard but fair, gym work (fitness sessions) were regular as was boxing. As we all found out boxing was a good way of making us all sweat, the ring was hard but was meant to be too. Girls used to come in to get whatever they needed from the store room and return when finished so would see us all stripped to the waist and also if they looked through the large windows too, which they regularly did. Team games, including football, cross country and athletics were always skins vs vests, indoors it was quite normal for vests to stick to their owners tops. Class competitions were done in a similar manner except for boxing where each boy taking part had his top off to fight. When each of the class teams were being picked, the girls always would say who they wanted to see on them especially if we were to have our tops off, but the form teacher always picked the team. Those who weren't picked were expected to cheer their class representative's on so everyone was involved. During the basketball and fitness competitions the teams switched at half time so everyone was a skin at some point and it raised a few wolf whistles if your team was stripping down for the second half as you would sweating.

On the communal shower issue after PE it will seem shocking to some today but was normal practise in the secondary schools I attended in the early seventies. My first senior school was down South and was my first experience of communal showering and then we moved North and it was the same here so seemed standard at that time.

I don't look back now and regard it as abusive it was certainly one of life'e experiences. I do realise there may have been some perverted teachers in some schools but ours never stood and watched or anything like that.

To an extent, I do think my generation is a bit of a 'snowflake' generation as others have said. I'm one of few people that plays sports and was on a school team. A lot of guys would rather just study and browse Facebook/snapchat than actually get out and do exercise which builds a team spirit and competitive nature. Plus, you won't believe the number of times people pretend to be sick in order to miss swimming and PE lessons. In the winter, you could expect a quarter of the class to be too 'sick' to come to PE. Whildt I don't agree with the punishments listed below, I think we've become too soft in a sense

Ambrose,
I never said that my classmates felt inhibited about being naked together. We were never naked in any sort of situation. I think you confused me for a different user perhaps?

Brendan on 10th April

I revert to my earlier point that it is foolish to judge what is correct at one time by the values of another time.

When I was a boy it was definitely considered wrong to send boys up chimneys to sweep them but years earlier it was a norm.

Remember nearly all the school masters who taught us had either been in the military during WW2 or had done National Service. WW3 was on the horizon at times. Personal privacy was not valued at all among groups of men or boys at that time.

Communal showers were the norm be it in the military or in a boy's school changing room and did no one any harm. They are still not uncommon particularly if as an adult you play team sports like rugby. To repeat, I never minded them and never felt they were in any way inappropriate.

The same with the cane, it was the normal punishment in a boy's school at the time, we knew if we misbehaved or failed to turn in our best work we would be caned. It was the normal sanction of the times. It was not criminal or anything else associated with that, it was normal.

I do know think that things have gone too far towards producing generation snowflake.

I wonder what Brendan and others of his age would make of the trends that prevailed in my childhood in the 50's and 60's,and early teaching life.
After PE and games lessons we showered naked together in a small communal area often brushing against each other due to the number of boys and lack of space. We were supervised by the staff while we changed in order to maintain good discipline and ensure we changed properly. We expected this to be the case, and took full advantage if the master was out of the room. It was neither improper nor illegal for boys to be seen naked by the staff at that time in state secondary schools.
When I went to teacher training college in the mid to late 60's it was the trend to encourage staff to let pupils address them by their Christian names. In my first school PE followed the traditional clothing rules, backed by guidance from county advisors, but we newly trained teachers had been encouraged at college not only to supervise the pupils changing but also to shower with them where appropriate. This was to break down inhibitions of body image and help them to see how they may develop as they got older. There was never any accusation of inappropriate behaviour towards pupils and the system continued in state secondary schools until the late 70's when the general advice changed.
During the 70's and 80's there was a large influx of foreign pupils to my city from all over the world. They were assimilated into the ethos of their schools in their new country. There was no question then of religious or cultural differences dictating how they changed or dressed for PE - everyone was treated the same.
Schools and staff that followed the official guidelines in past decades were not guilty of abusing pupils, even if trends today dictate a more neurotic approach to nakedness. In a previous post Brendan said his classmates felt inhibited being naked around each other, they should have been developing confidence in their bodies.
Only in more recent years have trends come to the fore where parents and pupils can dictate policy to schools and politicians on what they like and dislike for whatever reason. Whether you find this a good thing or not is a matter of conjecture!

Since this is an informative site, I thought I'd add my experience of doing PE at secondary school (2008-2015):
PE lessons took place once a week from Year 7 to Year 11 and were optional in Year 12 and 13 (sixth form). PE consisted of gymnastics, circuit training, spin cycling, rowing machines and five a side football/ basketball/ hockey. We wore a house t shirt, shorts and trainers, all of which we had to buy from the school.
Games lessons took place once a week and consisted of football matches, cross country in the winter, cricket and rugby throughout the five years. In the sixth form. games lessons were optional. We also had football and rugby practice for those of us on the school team, which was after school. We wore a school jersey for those.
Swimming lessons took place once a fortnight and we were taught all the main strokes. I was also part of the swim team which trained once a week after school. We wore swimwear that we bought from the school. For the swim team, we wore different competitive swimwear.

Feel free to ask more questions! I'll try and answer as soon as possible

Actually it is indeed against the law

Brendan,
Communal showers are not against the law and therefore not abuse. However, forcing a child to be naked for them is a grey area in terms of the law.

Paul, so do you believe that a teacher caning a student's bare bottom, or telling them to be naked for a swimming lesson or having to shower naked in front of others is not abuse? Forcing a student to wear less than they wish to and physically attacking a student is abuse, whether the student thinks it's abuse or not. What I'm essentially saying is how surprised I am by how badly students were abused in the past, as I've read from this site and how surprised I am that it wasn't considered wrong at the time when it so obviously is wrong today.

Paul, I agree 100% with everything you say. There is a similar debate going on in the Royal Clitheroe forum. A few months ago I made the same point about feeling sorry for youngsters who are so inhibited that they wear chlorine soaked trunks in the men's showers after swimming at the local pool. What's the point of that?

But there's a wider point. Recently concern has been expressed that some children leaving school lack resilience - not surprising if they're excused things they feel uncomfortable with, like getting cold or communal showers. But having to do something you would rather avoid is not abuse and to make out that it is trivialises something that is really serious.

Brendan on 9th April

You clearly don't understand how different things were in those days. No one ever thought of the word 'abuse'. I don't now consider that I was in any way abused by anyone. The friends I still have from those days are of the same mind. In fact we all think of boys of your generation as rather soft and mollycoddled.

None of what happened did us any harm, I was very happy at school and would not have changed any of it for anything different. When I see a lad in the changing room at the gym dancing around behind a towel in case anyone sees his bottom I actually feel sorry for him that he is so uncomfortable with his body. After all, he's not going to be molested in that environment but you'd never know it.

To Paul

The point I was trying to make was to support what you had said about how standards of one age cannot be equated with those of another. From what I have learned about National Service, the treatment of recruits would certainly qualify as "abuse" in terms of how we define abuse nowadays but that's the way it was then.

Pete on 8th April.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

I started 7th grade (age 12) in a public Junior High School in 1968 in Blaine, Minnesota, U.S.A. (a northern suburb of Minneapolis).
Any infraction (chewing gum, horse-play, etc.) of the Gym Class Physical Education rules meant a bare-ass swat (I can't remember gym teacher using his bare hand, or a paddle). Very few boys goofed-around in Phy Ed class. We knew the consequences.
After entering the locker room, we were required to remove our street clothes, and put on our Gym Suits: jockstraps, short-shorts, socks, tennis shoes, and the t-shirt's.
After the 1-hour Gym Class was over, we were required to shower naked in the no-dividers open-area showers.
Failure to shower naked meant a swat!
Our school had no swimming pool.
To this day, I still respect the rules of the Gym Class. It made us better citizens in society. Many kids today are babies, spoiled, scared of their own bodies, commit more sexual assaults, incur more relationship problems, have more perverted people, and the United States prison population percentage is much larger than it was in the 1960's and 1970's.

To Bradley,

In addition to the examples mentioned by Paul, the ordeals meted out to National Service recruits seem pretty horrific and certainly would not be tolerated nowadays but, however the recruits felt about their treatment, they just had to endure it.

Paul, I understand your point but what I'm saying is, surely people should have known that this is abuse, plain and simple. It just seems ridiculous to me that people would be fine with having to swim naked, with having to drop their underwear to be caned, when these are such obvious incidents of abuse.

Brendan on 8th April

It's always very foolish to judge the actions of one time against the values of another.

Presumably you will also be arranging for judges, prison officers and executioners to be tried for murder when in fact at the time hanging was a lawful punishment?

I have no sense I was ever abused. Just dealt with justly and fairly in accord with the norms of the times.

To Paul
The official policy of your school was "corporal punishment is the most effective means of correcting wrong doing and deterring repeat or even initial breaking of the rules"

Note - correcting and deterring

Your experience doesn't bear witness to any correcting or deterring.

"Twelve (strokes) was pretty unusual and while I had plenty of 8s over the years, I only had three 12s".

I find it absolutely ridiculous that nude swimming was ever a thing. I feel like many of the posters on here should really be calling the police and telling them about the historical child abuse they suffered. Honestly, some of the stories on here are child abuse examples and should be reported to the authorities.

It may be that I'm too young to understand but as far as I know this is abuse, plain and simple. I was at school roughly two years ago and, believe me, if we ever had to engage in some of these activities there would be lawsuits.

We didn't even do swimming in the winter to avoid the cold. Can't imagine what that must have been like!

At my bording school in the early 60's, boys were caned both bare in private and shorts in the gym - thus naked as we only wore shorts.

Head of Years and PE teachers caned. No age limit, and age up to 18.

Mostly in private but detention canings were in front of the boys in the detention, we had to strip completely for these csnings

Willy on 7th April.

I don't know that there was an actual ban on bare bottom caning in the state sector, it was maybe more that it just didn't happen. AFAIK each LEA set the rules and what was approved was likely to have been in line with the experiences of the members. I know that in the London Borough of Richmond where my parents lived the rules stated that corporal punishment was not to be used on girls, it was not to be administered to the hands and the cane was to be used. That was as much as was stated and anything else was at the discretion of the headmaster. A headmaster who administered a bare bottom caning was not then breaking the rules but of course I have no idea whether it happened or not.

At my boarding school caning was always in private in the master's study. Occasionally there was the threat of a caning in front of the whole school but I never witnessed one and never heard from anyone that it had ever happened. There was a master of discipline who was also a championship squash player and he generally caned when a boy had been referred to the headmaster, having had it from him a couple of times it was definitely quite a lot worse than the norm and then norm was pretty bad.

Any master was allowed to cane, records were kept and you had to initial the book. The entry ran something like:

Jameson, Paul. Form 4A. Insolence. 8 Bare buttocks.

For whatever reason the school had a long tradition of working in multiples of four so four, eight or twelve were the norm eight being the most common. Twelve was pretty unusual and while I had plenty of 8s over the years I only had three 12s.

There was no secret about it, the subject of punishment was dealt with in the school handbook which every parent had and had signed an acknowledgement of having read.

The section went something like 'the school governors have determined that corporal punishment is the most effective means of correcting wrong doing and detering repeat or even initial breaking of the rules. It will also be used to spur on the attitude of an underperforming or lazy boy who is not doing his best in his studies or general participation in the life of the school. The instrument of correction is the cane and up to twelve strokes will be administered to the bare buttocks of an errant boy'. Says it all!

There was no age limit on caning - I got my last one in the Easter term of my last year at the age of eighteen after I absented myself from classes one afternoon. There was a general belief that an older boy benefited even more from a bare bottom caning as having to lower his trousers was an added humiliation.

I don't think I agreed with the latter, it was a boarding school, we slept in open dormitories, we showered in communal showers, we swam naked in the pool, there was nothing unusual about lowering your trousers and underpants in front of another man so it may have bothered some, it certainly didn't bother me - the sting of the cane did!

Reading the posts re bare bottom caning at my school back in late 50's early 60's we were caned on our bare bottom in private in the heads study, I was caned once at 13 because I was heard swearing by the teacher and sent to the head, as my dad was his gardener he gave me two options :- 3 strokes on the bare bottom and he told my dad or 6 on the bare bottom and that was it, I chose the latter as my dad would have trebled what I had been given and a grounding as well.

In the showers after I was told that the stripes were very visible, I did get some relief from freezing cold water over my bottom, but the pain still came back, and I couldn't hide it at home when sitting down, dad had me drop my shorts and pants and he examined me and said I had been punished enough but docked my pocket money anyway for that weekend.

Looking back to end of the humiliations that largely ended in Easter 1987, I think most PE teachers were closet paedophiles 30 years. The communal showers where you were forced to be naked in front of other males. If gym class was cancelled at the last moment you could be made to do swimming in see through white shorts. Other punishments by the coach included having to bend over and being whacked on the backside or being forced to 10 press ups with the PE teacher pushing your groin into the ground. At least with the development of a professional middle class and the moves towards a multi-cultural pro-feminist society these abuses have largely been consigned to living memory in the UK.