Burnley Grammar School

Willy,sorry about the spelling error,I meant cords and we were made to wear them.

Hi Willy,we used to wear slips for swimming at all ages through school.
The slip that I wore was a sliver of nylon attached to chords
to keep it in place.
No,we were not given a reason why we were made to them instead of normal swimming trunks,it was a requisite for swimming lessons.
Yes,I did feel embarrassed and humiliated when having to those flimsy slips,while other boys were quite brazen and arrogant.

Sorry Gerald for the late response.
1) I did not know of any schools at the time that swam without trunks. The school I went to was quite isolated and I didn't know anyone who went to other schools nearby. Our school was one of the last to have done nude swimming.
2) Our teacher was indifferent. He didn't seem to like or dislike the policy but he did his job as he was told to by the headteacher and heads of department, who only later ruled that we should do swimming with trunks.
3) eventually the school banned it because it just became very outdated. No one saw any reason to continue the policy. I think they should have stopped it earlier.

Hi James, at what ages were the boys in your school made to wear these flimsy slips?

Were they made of nylon or cotton?

Did they ever give a reason why the boys were made to wear these slips instead of normal swim trunks?

Did you or the other boys feel embarrassed or humiliated by being made to wear these slips for swimming lessons?

Hi Jim, We never had a male teacher it was an all girls school. It was hard enough going topless with just female groups. Girls can tease just as much as boys.

Willy,
I remember wearing the slips that were mentioned and they were also tied at the hip to keep them in place.
I don't recall any'malfunctions'and they were quite comfortable to wear,albeit they were very minuscule.

Willy

It was boys only. I did not attend this school but came across the kit list so wondered whether anyone had experience of these slips that tie at the side. What did they feel like? Did they malfunction e.g. come untied or become knotted so you couldn't get them off?

Turner, was this a boys only or mixed school?
I presume that these slips were only mandated for boys during swimming at the school.
I guess that some schools really stuck to tradition, but at least a tiny nylon or cotton slip was a step up from complete nudity which was common in many schools for boys at the time for swimming lessons.

King Edward VII Grammar School Sheffield Sept 1961 P.E. requirements:-
P.T.: black shorts and gym shoes.
Swimming: non-swimmers - white cotton slips, triangular, with tapes to fasten at the side.
swimmers - blue nylon or cotton slips.
These should be contained in a polythene or waterproof bag, as there are no drying facilities at the School.
Were these slips like the German Dreiecksbadehose? I thought they had been replaced by trunks with elasticated waistbands in the 1940s or 50s.

Did you girls ever do PE in just underwear or topless with a male teacher?

Claire & Louise,
I can remember my sister telling me that my niece hated wearing a vest once some of her friends had started to wear bras, so even though she was still flat chested at that point Sis bought her some crop tops so she wouldn't feel left out.

When I was that age in the early 1970's there were no such things as crop tops (or sports bras). Until we were sufficiently developed for a 'teen bra' (a scaled down version of what our mothers wore), we wore vests or nothing under our shirts - just like the boys. Getting your first bra was a sort of rite of passage (which some girls looked forward to, but others didn't!).

Hi Louise,

Up to yr7 it was just a standard vest and after yr7 a sports bra.
My simple problem was I didn't start to show until towards the end of yr9. To be honest, I was apprehensive about going topless in the gym but being average build I felt it was the only option. One thing that did ease off were the ribbings, they stopped after a couple of months which was a huge relief.

Hi Claire

No way did girls have it easy! I think we've proved that!

Up to yr7 was it your underwear vest that you had to wear for PE? From yr7 was it just your regular bra or did the other girls bring sports bras to wear? How did you feel having to go into the gym topleas - I bet it was worse being the only one like that. What else did you wear in the gym?

Louise

Louise,

Poor you! PE lessons were an endurance test for me. Our kit on top was supposed to be a vest up to yr7 then just a bra. I was still flat chested at that stage and was told by the teacher to either wear a vest, and be the only one to do so, or go into the gym topless. I was ribbed enough as it was so topless was the only option. Who says girls had it easy?

Louise,

I agree with Rob, that sounds awful. We were allowed just to wash ourselves in one of the sinks if we didn't want to use the shower at that time of the month.

As for making that poor year 9 girl do gymnastics topless, that must have been so embarrassing her! Even in year 7 some of my classmates definitely needed their bras and as far as I can recall pretty much all of us wore them by the end of year 8.

Louise, that's terrible, I feel so sorry for you. They shouldn't have been allowed to treat girls like that. it must have been really embarrassing for you and the memory has stayed with you ever since. Boys should consider themselves lucky; they have nothing to get embarrassed about when they are in the showers.

Rob - I think it was quite harsh making us shower even on our periods. But I can see that we were just as sweaty or muddy as the rest of the class so did need to freshen up somehow. For a lot of girls it wasn't too obvious but you're right about those with very heavy periods. I remember one lesson where I felt so weak and afterwards in the shower it was pretty messy and unpleasant.

Andrea - yes, in yr8 upwards if we forgot our kit we did it in a bra as well as our pants. For some girls that couldn't come a day too soon! I remember a girl who joined us at the start of yr9 who didn't have a PE kit. For some reason she didn't have a bra either so had to do gymnastics wearing just a pair of pants!

Following the comments by T & William in my era at secondary school, ie 1961 to 1966, it was not that long since ww2 had ended and National Service finished I think about 1963. Therefore in an all male school with all male teachers most of these had served in the war or national service as had our fathers they had experienced communal changing in military accommodation and to them it was just the norm. Furthermore it is only recently that changing arrangements had altered in swimming pools. I remember certainly up to a few years ago the changing facilities at swimming pools were segregated by gender and although there were a few cubicles generally all males changed in an open area and we were quite used to this arrangement so a changing room for pe at school seemed no different. Nowadays we have mixed changing villages, the trouble being at our local pool when busy there are not enough facilities which means having to wait and when you come out of the pool you are hanging around getting cold waiting for a vacant cubicle whereas previously in an all male environment you could just come out of the pool go the changing area and get changed.
Have we become to inhibited?

RobinC, did you know of any other schools that only recently stopped this practice? Fifteen years ago is quite recent. Were you okay with it? was your teacher ( a man I presume!) supportive of the policy or did he aim to stop it? And why did your school decide to ban the practice?

To be honest, those pictures should never have been taken and in shocked that they were. I understand why nude showering is appropriate but a photographer should never have been given access to take those photos. I would have been absolutely horrified if an adult man just walked in on us and took photos while we were in that state. I'm glad that this is no longer allowed to take place. Where's the privacy in that?

I left fifteen years ago and I was one of the last years in the school to do their swimming lessons without trunks. Was a boys private day school.

T, Interesting that your experience mirrors mine many years before: initially nervous, eventually confident and then not bothering whether you're nude or not in the showers queue or changing room. It helped that we had no choice and were all treated the same.

The photos I mentioned bear this out. The foreground figures in McBride's might well be posed but the boys in the background are not and seem entirely relaxed; and the American boys are unconcerned that they are all naked in the showers, as if it's completely natural, which I suppose it is.

William, I have to agree with you that communal showers can help a lot in terms of not being shy. When I first started secondary school nine years ago, I was pretty shocked to hear that we were supposed to shower after every swimming lesson and that we had to take our swimwear off before doing so. Eventually, we all got used to it and didn't even bother covering up with towels in the queue!
So little things like this do boost your confidence

Louise,

Our PE teacher was a stickler for us wearing the correct PE kit and made us wear some from the lost property cupboard which if we forgot our own (which we hated as it was usually grubby and smelly!).

She had a rather different attitude to bras than yours; far from forbidding them to be worn, she would sometimes 'suggest' that it was time that certain girls started to wear one!

I would imagine that for some, running around topless towards the end of year 7 must have been uncomfortable and embarrassing?

I assume that they were allowed in later years you were allowed to keep them on?

Louise,I was a little more than concerned and wondered what a man who said that was doing teaching PE in a girls school.However, your female teacher doesn't sound much better and I can imagine her. She probably chose the kit she wanted girls to wear from year 8 onwards until you were aged 18 so I hope none of you ever forgot your kit.With boys it's different; we didn't need anything other than a pair of shorts in the gym or outside and as we got very hot and sweaty we needed to be naked in the showers together in order to wash properly and it wasn't a problem. However, your teacher was very insensitive making girls shower when they were having their periods and it must have been very unpleasant for any who suffered heavy periods.Surely, if you brought a doctor's note this would have excused you.She shouldn't have been snooping around in the changing room anyway, our teacher never did. We knew we needed to shower and all got on with it.But then again, we were all boys and had it easy.

Rob, in fact we always had to shower after our PE lessons. Very often our PE teacher would be in the changing room or at least come in at some point so there was no way of not showering, even if you didn't want to. Being on your period didn't get you out of it either; our teacher said that you still needed to get clean after sweating in her lesson.

At the end of my earlier message it was supposed to read "I remember her saying we were lucky to be allowed our pants!" Sorry for not correcting the bad typo!

Andrea, no one was allowed to wear a bra for PE in yr7. Our PE teacher made it really clear that all we could wear was a pair of pants. I tenner he saying that we were lucky to be allowed our pants!

Rob,
Our PE kit in the early 1970s was white polo shirt and navy gym knickers. The shower rules were the same as described by your wife. A few girls would try to get out of showers by saying they were on their period when they weren't, but our PE teacher soon got wise to them!

Louise,
Were you allowed to keep your bra on if you were doing PE in underwear, or was it strictly knickers only?

The recent discussion has highlighted the change in attitude between now and 50 years ago towards nudity in single sex schools. We had communal showers at school after gym and were told to get on with it as we were all boys together and there was no reason to be embarrassed. Most of us quickly stopped being shy about being nude. I never saw a master behave improperly in any way.

Will McBride famously photographed the boys washing at Salem School in 1963. Germany has always been more relaxed about nudity than Britain; but the US was more like us and there the change in attitude has been equally striking. In Life magazine dated 13 Jan 1941 there is an article on Democracy in US Schools which includes a photo of about 20 boys back view in a communal shower. Life was a mainstream magazine widely available on US news stands and the photo was uncontroversial. Very different from today's attitudes.

As this is a history site I thought referring to a couple of primary sources would be interesting.

Gerald, I'm not the one you asked but I can say that it is an anomaly. Very very few schools still have compulsory showers, especially nude. It's a shame because the area covered by swimwear is one of the places most prone to infection.