Burnley Grammar School

Lewis,during the first lesson I didn't experience any feeling of insecurity about not wearing anything under my gym shorts,although as I grew and my shorts got shorter I know what you mean.This was not a problem in the gym although it was a different story when we were sent out on a run. I do however, remember, like you after the first lesson,feeling very apprehensive about having to take my shorts off to go in the showers.I had never been naked in front of others and I had this feeling of guilt that this was wrong and yet there were boys already in the showers and I knew that I had to do it. I soon got used to it and went on to look forward to the showers after we had been made to work hard and built up a sweat in the gym.It was interesting to read about how you felt about your first PE lesson and makes me think there were many others with similar experiences.

I started at Secondary School in 1971 and never had to do PE topless even at Primary School, let alone at Secondary. I was still flat-chested at the start of the year, but some of my classmates definitely weren't and were encouraged to wear bras by our PE teacher if they hadn't already started to do so!

I agree, I don't think It happens now.
In my case It was back in 1975 & I hadn't started wearing a bra at that stage but about half of the girls in the group had.
It was the same for all of us, so after a few weeks It seemed normal to be topless.

I doubt many if any schools have their y7 girls do PE in just their knickers these days. Maybe a few do for forgotten kit, in single sex lessons but even they would be very few in number.

When I had to go topless in my lessons it was embarrassing but I didn't wear a bra at that age so it wasn't physically uncomfortable. Some girls has developed a bit by that age and one or two had quite large breasts and I agree for them it must have been really hard. .

I have read the various contributions which describe topless pe classes for girls in their 1st year at secondary. I was not aware that this practice existed and perhaps still does. Given the wide age gap when girls start to show development I am really surprised that this took place as it must have been terribly difficult for some girls to cope with this. To have to remove your bra and go into the gym in just knickers doesn't bear thinking about. It is a disgrace. I am just so pleased that I didn't attend such a school but so sorry for those who did.

Hi Rob & Lewis. I didn't go shirtless but I was barefoot for PE. Mostly indoors and outdoors too all throughout the year.
Thinking about it I'd much more happily hand over my shoes and socks as I did than my shirt.
You mentioned showers I too showered naked in middle school. It wasn't a big deal to be honest we walked to the shower block hung up a towel so after we were done at least we had a towel to hand to wrap up in.
Looking back after a muddy barefoot run in the snow/slush covered fields a warm shower afterwards was kind of a treat.

It came as a big shock to me when we moved house and I had to change secondary school and found that PE was topless.
We wore just tight blue shorts with no top or bra during the first year.
At my previous school we had a full PE kit for indoor and outdoor lessons but I soon got used to it and quite enjoyed the freedom.

I agree with Rob. the very first time going out for PE in just shorts & plimsolls with no pants I* felt insecure beneath my shorts. Also I was a bit apprehensive first time being naked in the communal showers. However, this soon passed.

Hi Ross, We soon got used to wearing our minimal kit in the gym and outside throughout the middle and upper school, although we did wear plimsolls much of the time,except when we were outdoors in the summer,when most of us opted to go barefoot.I well remember our very first PE lesson when were all told by the teacher that we had to take everything off and come back into the gym wearing just shorts and plimsolls and then afterwards having to go naked in the communal showers.

Hi Rob. In middle school it was the PE teachers rules all indoor PE was done barefoot. I remember the very first lesson when we were all sent back to the changing rooms to take off our footwear then walk back barefoot.
I think it was because of this I opted for bare feet even throughout high school. In or out. At least I didn't have the extra hassle of carrying around and then cleaning trainers.

Ross, if you preferred going barefoot in pe in the nineties you would probably have enjoyed it in earlier decades when most of us had to wear literally just shorts and nothing else all year round. We had no choice but we enjoyed it.

Hi Andrea

Actually I did forget my PE kit a few times even after that first lesson!

Yes I suppose it was quite unfair that we didn't know we would need our PE kit but maybe the timetable was not finalised before the end of the previous term. Of course this was before the days of email, websites or text messages.

Our PE lessons were single sex. We had two gyms, one for boys and one for the girls. I am certain that the boys had the same rule if they forgot their kit and they had to do it in their pants.

In that first lesson and for the whole of the first year at least if we had to do PE in our underwear then that meant doing it in just our knickers. Any girl who was wearing a bra had to take it off. If you forgot your PE kit that happens to be wearing a vest under your school blouse you still had to do the lesson in just your knickers. In fact the vest I wore as underwear in the first year was almost identical to our PE vests but even then our teachers make sure that we changed before a lesson.

I think that the lesson on the very first day showed me that I was not particularly developed and while I felt quite childish compared to many of the girls in my class I didn't start really wanting to wear a bra for a year or more. Maybe if in that first lesson girls in bras had been allowed to keep them on, me and others who had to do the lesson bare chested might have wanted a bra sooner.

I suppose I should be grateful that the first lesson was gymnastics and not hockey or anything else outside!

Hi Bryony,

I would imagine that you never forgot your PE kit after that!

But seriously it does seem unfair that it wasn't made clear before you actually started at the school that PE kit would be required on the first day!

Could you clarify a few points:

- was the PE lesson mixed or did the girls do it in one location and boys in another?

- presumably the same rules applied to the boys and they had to do the lesson in just their underpants if they didn't have their kit?

- Are you saying that the girls who were wearing bras were allowed to keep them on and do the lesson in their bra and knickers or take off the bra and do it in just knickers (which is what Ellie said happened in her school and which seems very harsh)?

- If any of the girls were wearing an ordinary vest (as opposed to a gym vest), were they allowed to keep that on or not? Like you I wasn't wearing a bra at that stage, but did normally wear a vest under my school uniform.

- You mentioned that you felt childish because you weren't wearing a bra - did the this experience lead you to ask for one?

Andrea

It's been interesting to read about Ellie's school's approach in the early years of senior school and it's prompted me to share my own experience. I started senior school in 1990. On our first day we found we had PE timetabled in the afternoon so after registration the whole form managed to find our way to the gym where we were met by two tracksuited teachers, one male and one female.

They split the form into boys and girls and took us into our respective changing rooms where we were ordered to remain silent and to sit on the floor. We were then briefed on the PE department, including that for the first half term we'd be doing gymnastics in both of our weekly PE lessons and hockey in games lessons. We were then told that PE kit must be worn exactly as per the rules - with this being the very early 1990s this meant a white vest and light grey gym knickers. Finally we were told very clearly that if we didn't have out PE kit we would still be doing the lesson but in our underwear. Suitably shocked we sat in silence.

It was then that the bombshell was dropped. We were asked whether we had our PE kits with us, as it was our first day at the school. About 3 or 4 girls raised their hands to say they did. For the rest of us we slowly realised what was coming. Inevitably, our rather formidable PE teacher said that was fine and in that case we should all get undressed and line up by the door. As we shyly undressed I looked round and saw a few girls in bras and suddenly felt very childish as I knew I had nothing under my school blouse. Seconds later our teacher reappeared and as if she was reading our minds told us that she basically didn't care if we were wearing a bra or not, we'd be doing the lesson in our knickers and only our knickers.

Needless to say that experience in the changing room and the lesson that followed that stayed with me. Even some 26 years later it feels like only yesterday!

To Paula and Frank,

I went to an all girls secondary school and all the PE teachers were female, so there weren't many males around to see us in our PE kit and certainly not in the changing rooms. Our secondary school indoor PE kit was similar to Paula's - regulation navy blue gym knickers (not white briefs as in Ellie's case) and a white polo shirt. Actually we were supposed to wear the regulation navy knickers under our classroom uniform too.

At primary school we were allowed to change into shorts and a T shirt for PE, but boys and girls did have to change in the same classroom, so we did see each other in vest and pants while we were changing. The majority of our teachers were female, but it wasn't unknown for a male teacher to supervise. During our final year at primary, a few girls who had started to 'develop' began bras rather than vests and they were allowed to change separately in the toilets.

Andrea

Hi Paula and Frank

Thanks for your messages and questions. To clarify, in years 7 & 8 we didn't wear gym knickers for indoor PE, we wore our everyday underwear knickers. Almost always this meant white cotton briefs. In the second year we didn't have to go topless but still wore our underwear knickers.

In terms of male teachers and boys being present, we did three PE or games lessons a week. Two of these were single sex - one indoors and one outdoors, and were an amalgamation of two different forms. When we were on the field the boys from the two forms were in the gym, and vice versa. The third was mixed sex and indoors, so the boys in our form did see us undressed. The girls only lessons were always taken by a female teacher. The mixed lessons could end taken by either a male or female teacher. I think we had a female more often than a male but there were plenty of examples of the latter. Male teachers certainly don't come into the girls change from at secondary school, though our female PE teachers often sis supervise changing, mainly to make sure we showered properly!

The story you mention is interesting. Wasn't it pretty common to do primary school PE in underwear? My school and a lot of others I know used to insist on just pants or knickers, with vests having to be removed. So although I think there's a lot to that particular story, I don't think the "forcing girls to do or topless" bit is much of a story.

To Andrea and Ellie... Similar to Paula's post, were there any male teachers around when you did PE in just knickers in the first years of Secondary school? Or any boys could see you?

About Paula's post, a particular male teacher forcing Sec. school girls to do PE topless and being school policy is quite different.
If it was the school policy then the male teacher cannot be accused of anything, he was just following rules. If it was not the school policy it would be a different matter.

I recently read that in some schools boys were supervised by female teachers in the changing room and in the showers after PE, albeit this would probably be in some primary schools. I can't imagine secondary school boys being supervised in the showers by female teachers.
I wonder if any males posting here ever had this experience at school. I suppose girls being supervised in the changing room and showers by male teachers would be somewhat rarer.

I was shocked to read about Ellie's experience of having to do pe in 1st year at secondary in just gym knickers. I went from vest and knickers only in primary school to Aertex blouse and knickers in secondary school. That remained the kit throughout the school. I read an article last month in the Daily Mail where a retired male primary teacher is facing allegations of , amongst others, of forcing girls to do pe topless. It occurs to me that Ellie's pe teachers may be concerned that they too might end up facing allegations.

Back when I was in school throughout the nineties most indoor PE was done wearing shorts, tee and bare feet. This kit was often used outside in the summer too and in winter we were allowed rugby shirts and trainers although some of us still chose to go barefoot.

Hi Ellie,

Leotards never featured in our kit list for PE. Indoor PE lessons were done in gym knickers and a polo shirt right through the school (although girls who were in the gym display team did wear them).

Hi Andrea

As far as I know there weren't any complaints but it might be that some parents complained but the school stuck to its guns. Either way the PE kit didn't change in my time there and even when j was in the 6th form, the first years were still made to do things in just their knickers.

I think I didn't really NEED a bra even in the second year but given that we were all getting older by then I wanted to wear one. Looking back it was probably a bit awkward for the girls who dos wear bras and needed them, to have to take them off for PE and have to make do with the tiny amount of support that a cotton vest offered! From the 3rd year own we were all squashed by our leotards so it didn't matter so much!

Hi Ellie,

Given that some of the classes were mixed, I'm really surprised that there were no complaints from mums!

Also the attitudes from our PE teachers were very different, with several girls being 'advised' that it was time to ask their mum to buy them a bra if the teacher thought there was too much movement under their PE tops!
Although I did start to develop during the latter part of the first year,it mustn't have been enough for the teacher to consider it a problem at that point!

However, like you, I did start to wear one at the start of the second year. I had started to feel a little self conscious over the summer holidays (ensuring that my chest remained covered when I was changing on the beach etc, so I was relieved when mum insisted that I wear one when I returned to school.

Hi Andrea - I think most or all of us would rather not have had to do it topless either! I was quite lucky in one sense as I didn't actually wear a bra at that age, but some of my form did and for them it must have been pretty bad having to take them off - even more so when we then had to spend the next hour or more with the boys! I started wearing a bra in yr8 (2nd year) and by then I think nearly all of the form had done so too.

At the Grammar School I attended in the late 1960s and early 1970s footwear was not an option for P.E., either indoors or out. Bare feet were compulsory for everything, even cross country, both for boys and girls, except rugby and hockey. Even when we competed at inter-school athletics events we were all barefoot...and we won far more!

Ellie, I'm glad that our school didn't insist on topless PE like yours! I was still flat-chested at the start of the first year, but had started to develop by the end of the year and some of my classmates were wearing bras by the time we came up to Secondary school.

Thank you for answering my questions in such detail, Ellie.
it has,indeed, been interesting, and I thank you for your
patience.

Thanks for the questions, Rob. The boys did one of their indoor lessons when we were outside doing games. So everyone has three PE lessons a week: one single sex outdoors, one single sex indoors and one mixed indoors.

In the first year the boys wore shorts and no tops, then in the second year added vests. I don't honestly know if they wore underpants with their shorts or not.

I mentioned our outdoor kit in my earlier post, but you wouldn't have seen this by the time you asked again.

Our single sex lessons werw done in an amalgamation of two forms and were always with a female teacher and a the boys always had a male. But the mixed lessons (which were done in form groups) could be with either a male or female teacher. I don't know whethe the boys were supervises in the showers but I'd expect they were as it wouldn't make sense to do things different from how we were treated. Obviously the times we had a male teacher we weren't supervised unless a female teacher happened to be in the PE department at the time!

Ellie,so did the boys do indoors PE twice a week dressed the same as the girls for the first two years,or maybe without a vest in the second year, or did they just wear shorts without pants all the time they were at the school? When the boys were on their own were the girls doing games outside? Surely, you wore shorts and a top for this. was the PE teacher male or female and were the boys checked up on in the showers?

I forgot to answer Rob's question about outdoor kit. It depended on what sport we were doing. In winter we played hockey in aertex shirts, skirts, gym knickers and long socks; netball in aertex shirts, gym knickers and plimsolls and did cross country in vests, gym knickers and plimsolls. In summer we did athletics in vests, gym knickers and plimsolls or bare feet; rounders in aertexes, gym knickers and bare feet.

Thanks for the comments and questions. My senior school was mixed. I mentioned we did PE (as opposed to games) indoors twice a week. One of these would be girls only as the boys would be doing games, normally rugby in winter. The other lesson was mixed sex, and was normally gymnastics rather than any sort of team sport.

We had single sex changing rooms and then walked to the gym. We didn't have spare underpants or vests to change into afterwards, which looking back isn't very nice. We did have to shower after lessons and our PE teacher often used to check that we were having proper showers not simply dipping our heads under the shower jets!

It wasn't too embarrassing in the single sex lessons but it would still have been nice to get to wear clothes! The mixed lessons were obviously more embarrassing, but I'm not sure if it was worse when we were slightly younger but with no tops on, or older but in our vests and pants!