Burnley Grammar School

Starting secondary school in Beaconsfield when I was twelve years old (1978) I remember sitting next to a girl at my desk on our first morning writing new timetables down. We were getting told about our PE days and the girl beside me whispered to me that she thought boys at this school didn't put tops on for PE and we might see them. She was right, boys did go without their tops in school. For our first year we shared many a PE lesson inside with the boys and none wore tops, all were stripped down with nothing on above their waistlines, the full bare top look. There was a mixture of slight embarrassment along with curiosity at first sight but that passed quickly. I can't speak for what any boy may have been thinking. For many twelve year old girls I think it might well have been the moment they began taking an interest in the opposite sex or at least noticed them more.

I ended up within two years on the school cross country running team, a mixture of girls and boys who raced other schools or against ourselves. I've got photos of the school distance running teams I was on in both 1980 and again in 1981 with the twelve girls, me included and fifteen boys, none of them wearing a thing on top, all in bare chests, with one female and one male PE teacher, both fully dressed, along with us all. The boys often, but not always, ran that way alongside us and it was thought of as their normal running kit most of the time just to go out and run with bare bodies.

We sometimes got driven to another school in a couple of clapped out old school minibuses to run, our boys trademark was running tops off even on visits, some schools did the same, others wore shirts I remember.

We were the girls and boys that wanted to run and were achieving good times doing it, so the best in our respective classes who came together. Everybody of all abilities, girls and boys had to run regular normal PE cross country but it was separated, but I think the boys ran without tops doing theirs in that too a lot of the time.

I remember mum telling me not to get distracted by boys when I was that age, but this kind of thing was never a distraction to me at all. I always liked boys who were good at sports and looked nice, many who ran were good looking and I liked the confidence we all seemed to have while doing it, that confidence was a really attractive quality to me, as well as the looks.

I had never done any form of bare chested shirtless PE either in school gym or hall right up until I was 13 years old when our comprehensive school head of PE retired and handed over the main job to his deputy who was given it.

I was always happy with the way things had been, I always wore a T-shirt in middle school and when at comprehensive school it was the prescribed blue and white vest for everyone. I'd never even done any skins against shirts games either.

The deputy got the top PE job and then went moulding every aspect of our PE lessons into his own personal choice which we then all had to obey, and this was when doing PE bare chested suddenly out of a clear blue sky kicked in for all of us at school, even for my older brother by two years who had never done it and was almost leaving age.

I was really shocked when I came back in September and we started immediately not wearing our prescribed vests for PE and thought it was just going to be temporary but it turned permanent and we were told this eventually after a few weeks to no longer bring our PE vests unless told in advance.

I remember getting the most amazing stomach churn every time for ages just trying to adjust to doing PE lessons without a top on me. I did not like it for a long time.

Remarkably for a comprehensive school in the late 1970s they were quite casual with the need to shower until I was 13 in my first couple of years there and it was quite rare to see boys taking one, I think our retired PE head must have believed in free choice rather remarkably which went against the grain of the time. A few boys did shower sometimes after football but chose to. After the deputy was installed all that changed and he was in big with the you must shower rules, so I took my first group shower two years into comprehensive as well, like many did. I'd long thought I couldn't possibly go through the whole time there and never do so and I was right, all it took was a change of job titles and one man's personal taste to upturn everything.

To be fair perhaps I was just very lucky and what came later was more normal, but you couldn't know at the time what went on in other schools for certain. I was more surprised I wasn't made to shower when I first began actually. I couldn't quite believe it. You knew you had to at senior school level, or so you thought.

There was day when I was in gym when a PE teacher told me to come with him to collect a net of balls with him from a room, and on the way he decided he needed to deviate into the staff room quickly and I was made to wait outside in my PE kit, without a top on. I remember about five teachers coming out the door or going in questioning why I was standing there like that, it was so embarrassing. After a few minutes someone came out and says we have a boy with his shirt off out here, who is he waiting for, and it was discovered my PE teacher had forgotten about me and walked out the other door of the staff room and left me standing there like a fool, so I made my way to get the net of balls by myself only to notice they'd been got already by him without me and I returned to my lesson in the gym. All I got was I should have just gone and got the balls myself without him after a minute or two, but he'd told me to wait for him! Clearly I needed to learn mind reading at school. Teachers like this used to irritate me greatly.

My view on teachers was that they should also follow the rules like we had to, so they should have set rules on how we did things, but it seemed that one man could just disregard the fact that all these parents had bought all these vests for all these boys and suddenly they were surplus to requirements just because he said so. I liked wearing my PE vest, it looked good on me and made me feel nice while doing gym. Without it I felt very different, very on show.

On Chris 1970s points, when you think about it there were so many potential opportunities for a serious injury in some of our gym classes at school, highlighting the ropes is a good example, or even just large climbing frames which we had to get right up on and go over the top of. Yes, those mats probably were a false reassurance for any potential falls. It's probably a surprise that there were not more serious injuries or falls when you think about it. Even taking the pyramid you've mentioned Chris, not something I was ever asked to do, but if you're being asked to stand on the top of two sets of boys you must be about ten feet off the ground just doing that. I don't think I could have done that on the top, that sounds very difficult to me without a lot of practice.

Neil, you called Peter a bragger for his comment about himself but ended bragging about how well you've kept in shape since school! Well done for that, people seem to go one of two ways it seems to me. Those who never change very much down the years and always remain easily recognisable as the people they were when young, or others who seem to morph into somebody quite unrecognisable which also often involves a change of body shape - aka getting fatter! A couple of years ago I met up with someone from school who was as slim and in good nick as anyone you'd care to look at, good looking with it, well I don't know how it happened over the years or why but seeing him again for the first time in about 30 years was an incredible shock, I was no longer looking at the slim boy I knew of old with chiselled facial features but an overweight pot bellied round triple chinned face and bald guy. Everything about him I remembered had gone. I don't know how young, slim good looking people can let themselves go so dramatically without noticing at some point the direction they are heading in. It was shocking, but he seemed happy, and did joke about it. Why do a large number of people reach a certain age and seem content just to let themselves go?

Rod, The quicker you start doing something the less of an issue it is. We were pulling off t-shirts and vests indoors and outside on the field for all kinds of activities/exercise from 9 years old. May have been a little odd at first but after a few weeks everyone seemed to embrace it. The girls would see us pretty much all the time and the majority of us appreciated their attention.

I think shirtless gym should be given from the start of school as normality and then many of these later issues would be less likely to develop.

No need for showers at that age but once at primary school I think is a good time to start. Some people on here have said they began doing this at primary school and it looked to have served them better later on, not surprisingly in my opinion.

Mandating it seems to be the real problem here though doesn't it. So I'll try and make the case for it in a constructive manner. Just think for a minute about all the things you did as a child and now do as an adult that are mandated in some way, and without that mandate you probably would not choose to do. But you do and you accept it.

The real reason that PE lessons that involve going shirtless and taking showers become a problem for many is one of timing. The age at which most if us were asked to do it was wrong, the very worst age going, right at the point we all start becoming so much more self aware of ourselves and others. Is it any wonder that so many people have got a lot to say on the subject.

Anything that tries to foster not just a healthy body but a healthy body image and self esteem about oneself at a very early age that can continue going forward is to be welcomed. Nobody should be given any suggestion that they should fear their body or those of others. Anything that stops someone feeling excessive anxiety about a bare chest or a naked body should be embraced.

I was someone who went to a primary school that asked me to shower rather a lot with PE there. The same school made boys do hall PE with no tops on, and with girls too. But at the age of just 8 this proved to be no serious problem at all for me and my own friends at that time.

By the time we got to our own secondary school this kind of thing was second nature, but new friends at secondary school from other primaries without the requirements I'd had seemed more concerned, I noticed that with a few. But I'd had a three or four year head start on them and it paid huge dividends.

I wonder how many people at school who had a mandatory shower and thought it was a big problem for them still thought it was a big problem three months later?

I remember my first primary school shower with other boys quite well, and thought it was quite funny and a fun thing to do. I think I wanted it to last longer than it did, but I wasn't ever afraid of water.

Long after I left school I started playing squash with a friend from schooldays and another pair of men at a local club on Tuesday nights when we'd all meet up. Afterwards we would all change and all trot off into the available open showers there, and almost use those as part of our socialising, talking away as we stood naked with each other, and not rushing the job. I was late twenties early thirties at the time. Sharing our shower moment each Tuesday was part of the experience going to squash. Sometimes other people we didn't know were also there doing the same thing, other times it was just the four of us.

I put this relaxed attitude down to our school, in the case of two of us, asking us (telling us) to shower from an early age and keeping going with the mandate long into secondary school.

Some people treat this as disgusting. I disagree, it's quite the opposite. Timing is everything in many aspects of life, and regards the subject matter on here surrounding bare chest PE mandates and showering at school the real problem, and I agree it was a problem, was the bad timing involved for so many.

I also agree with sentiments on here that suggest boys are the ones who have bigger sensitivities than girls at these ages. There is plenty of evidence out there for this but boys are expected to say very little. I think it's great that so many older boys here feel they can say their piece at long last with others.

I wonder though, would any of you have been prepared to share your thoughts with your friends on an internet forum while you were actually at school some time ago?

Comment by: Peter on 3rd May 2025
OK men, boys. Describe all these bare chested bodies you talk about from your youth.

Age 14 is a good median to pick.

I was barely 7 stone, 5 foot 8 inches tall, waist was about 26/28 inches max, chest about 35/6 inches, and my biceps...what biceps!

I remember my PE teacher telling me "there's nothing of you" and "what are we gonna do with you" as I presented my slight frame to the class in PE lessons, shown up by the required need of PE to deny me clothing on top.

I didn't dislike being shirtless but I did dislike being quite so slight. I ate anything put in front of me and never gained weight, was the same until I left school. I was always wanting a bigger chest to at least reach the dizzying heights of being a medium in tops.

But I had the biggest willy in the showers so all was not lost! That's true by the way, sorry to brag. Feel free to compare. Where were you in the pecker order, that's a school days showers phrase we used against each other, and I was clearly number one when lined up along the shower tiles.

Suddenly from 22 to 24 I achieved a body more like I wanted, and without even trying to get it. My slightness of frame simply filled in. Too late, it should have done it when I was in school being called Master of the Puniverse by the comedian who took our PE without tops on in gym.

I'm now 59 and 15 stone. Our bodies can play cruel tricks on us sometimes. Now I need to lose some weight!






OK Peter, no need to brag. There was obviously some penis envy going on, you can't expect to throw a couple of dozen virile young males into a smallish school shower together and not get a bit of that going on. We were all looking at each other down there no matter what anyone says, of course we were, how could anyone not do so. School showers were where you really used to get to know about your friends.

But what about more generalised body envy, did anyone have that at school when doing PE shirtless in a group? Someone once caught up to me on the way home from school after we'd had a PE lesson with no shirts on that afternoon and asked me what I did to keep in shape. I was about 15 years old at the time. Boys didn't really talk like that as a rule but he caught me on the walk home out of school so must have felt it was safe to do like that. My answer was I didn't do anything to keep in shape other than what we did in PE, I was obviously just one of those lucky boys who had a body that looked like I did more with it than I did, a slim waist, slightly broader shoulders like someone else has already mentioned themselves, and good skin and natural tone. It was obviously a case of body envy. Was body envy of others in your class a thing anyone here remembers feeling?

What is great Peter is when you get older being able to say you are the very same weight you were when you were 21, and I can smugly say I am, twelve stone on the dot and exactly six foot tall with a 32 inch waistline, and I've barely ever been able to grow a hair on my chest either, which I've never minded one bit.

Do they still let boys climb ropes to the top of the gym ceiling, or has health and safety done for all that?

I was always lacking in upper body strength too like you Yours Truly, despite a regular shape. I could climb halfway up a rope easily enough but the second half was the bit that worried me, and what if I got to the top and could not keep hold of the rope and hang on to it, it was a long way down and the inch thick mats on the floor offered no protection from a high fall, and with nothing much on bar the shorts we had no protection on us either. A fall from the top of our gym ceiling could have been lethal in such circumstances. Nobody was forced all the way up if they couldn't make it.

Bare chests aside, I was also obsessed about my arms, and considered them on the thin side and wanted bigger ones. Did anyone else obsess about the size of their arms?

My least favoured PE teacher who I previously mentioned for his ear grabbing out the shower was often physical with boys. He grabbed my wrists once in PE and raised both my arms above my head quite forcibly when saying something about my strength in a typical put down. He was one of those people who didn't ask, he just took hold.

With him we also did this pyramid exercise where boys had to demonstrate strength and balance. We were in three groups and had to make three pyramids of six boys each, three boys on the bottom, standing upright, two boys standing on the bottom three boys shoulders, barefooted, and a final one on the very top of those two, fully upright. We all had to take our turn being the top boy getting pulled up in the pyramid as well as being on the bottom. It was unbelievably difficult, even just being the bottom one with the weight of those above on your shoulders. It felt like practicing for the circus. We eventually all managed it but after enormous effort and much falling over and lack of balance. Some of us were just not cut out for that kind of thing.

I remember how we did many physical things with each other like what we called the pyramid game in PE, where we touched each others bare feet, legs and arms a lot. We also did piggy back runs from one end of gym to the other where the smallest boys were expected to lift the biggest ones on our backs.

Greg I'd forgotten I'd mentioned the nipple distance point in answer to your own measurement question with the suspected student. So you measured, have you ever done that before? Mine are 23 cms, exactly 9 inches, which is what I once heard was meant to be everyone apparently, but could be a myth. I just looked this thing up and it turns out there is supposed to be a perfect nipple distance! You have to wonder why there is such a thing at all. There are some slightly conflicting answers on that but it's an interesting read for anyone interested in anatomy if you look it up like I just did. It just adds to looking out for imperfections especially to those with strong body awareness issues, of which I have to admit to being one of especially when I was younger.

I've watched the young football player drama. Touching. I would have been about the same age he was at the time that was shown. The ease with which they threw full frontal nudity into drama in those days was remarkable, but it wasn't gratuitous, it was simply conveying how things were. Even down a local football club where boys were playing voluntarily I'm sure not all of them were fully at ease with the culture of shared baths and showers around their sporting choice, but pressure meant they had to take part. I noticed the boy hiding himself behind the door too. The trouble was he was being told about a hot female physio working on the cancer boy and looked like he was getting off on the story, anything might have happened, best he hid a bit! Those old style football baths never look clean do they, and how long did they take to fill up. All that scum, no thanks, the sight of my own is bad enough without swimming in the scum of a few others. It makes a communal shower seem so much more agreeable come to think of it!

Joanne, I wouldn't have minded knowing that you were looking at me in a PE lesson with my top off in a nice way thinking we looked alright, but the thought for me when I was bare chested in PE was that others, boys mainly but some girls did see me shirtless too, was that they were looking at me in more critical ways, but the only person who actually did this was my least favourite PE teacher of the time, nobody else.

Hi Greg2,

'You made some interesting points in your reply, with just a few I’d like to clarify. You say, ‘Both genders have an evolved instinct to “cut males down to size.”’ Were you meaning that our adult male gym teacher was the alpha male here, who then felt a need and responsibility to punish his younger male pupils for ‘violating’ their same aged female classmates’ privacy, and therefore, ‘Cut us down to size?’

That is exactly what I mean. No doubt he though he was acting from an instinct for gallantry when he whipped his gymshoe out.

'We all knew immediately that he wouldn’t care that the girls had instigated this situation, and that we were therefore just doing the same, which is why we didn’t even bother to try to explain this, and anyway, he’d caught us red handed.'

Of course he wouldn't have. He was letting the girls' gym teacher pass through your changing room FFS so it was obvious he didn't care about your feelings.

'But what made this situation even more awkward for us boys -also something he'd never know- was that our girl classmates would then become empowered to continue to humiliate us.'

What makes you think he never knew? Teachers did gossip in the staffroom, you know. I bet he told the girls' teacher about your slipperings and she told him about the girls' spying and they both had a good chuckle about it. You stated yourself that the girls' teacher did condone their prying by walking past and taking no action.

You say the teasing continued for a long time so obviously the spying was ongoing. It is obvious the girls knew they were safe.

It was professional misconduct but hey. You were only boys.

'Perhaps then, are you meaning that this would have been something their adult female gym teacher would have condoned? Interesting.'

Hi Joanne,

'I remember that the boys were in bare chests for PE while we wore polo style white tops which were quite thick material with dark blue shorts. Everyone was barefoot on trampoline, infact everyone was for most gym I think.'

Your girls' kit sounds identical to the girls' kit at my secondary school. We boys were allowed to wear a bit more than your male fellow pupils though, including tops, trainers and shorts even for indoor PE. Girls, never boys, often went barefoot but that was by choice.

'I found myself looking on at some of the boys performing that looked nice with bare chests and I didn't get to see many boys like that outside of PE and the less common swimming lessons. I appreciated what they looked like and often wondered if they really liked being in bare chests for PE like that. Nobody ever said they didn't and if any of them were it wasn't obvious to any of us.'

Everybody checks out the opposite se at that age. I enjoyed it when the girls would stream past us in their PE kit.'

It is my guess a good two thirds of those boys weren't happy like that and less so in front of a load of girls but they knew they had no choice. Boys are the last to voice feelings of vulnerability in front of other boys and especially in front of girls. I remember myself the only tactic is to make out it doesn't mater to you and project an air of impassivity.

'I don't remember ever having to climb a rope in a school PE lesson, but I do remember watching boys climbing them high up and marvelling at their apparent strength in the arms to hold on.'

That is just in ,line with making boys do harder sports than girls. I had little upper body strength and could never get very far up, much to my gym teacher's contempt.

Hi Tony,

'Graeme your own comment about your female PE teacher being someone who thought boys in your school were better off doing PE shirtless doesn't surprise me in the least. If you read back on here over the past year or two there have been a few comments from people saying they had women take them for PE as boys doing just the same and that they were the equal to any male PE teacher if not worse at times when doing so.'

Graeme, maybe those women didn't think PE was better that way, they just wanted to impose their authority and forcing the boys to strip near-naked was an infallible way of doing just that. (Of course we mustn't forget that seemingly at many or most schools white shorts only was the general rule for boys and in many cases the women teachers were only observing the rules the same way their male colleagues did.)

But you are right - many women teachers just wanted throw their weight around and enjoy a little power trip. I can think of several teachers from my own schooldays like that - and they were all of them women.

I think what the posts by women PE teachers of boys on here has revealed consistently, rather than any deliberate unkindness, is a general indifference to the feelings of the boys in their charge. I certainly remember from my own schooldays that boys consistently received less consideration than girls and that was just how it went.

I do know that women do not like to be told that they have ingrained prejudices too. Any time I have taken up with any of those women posters about the double standard they have just fallen silent.

Personally I never before heard of women teachers taking boys' PE outside of infant school, and am surprised it was even being allowed.

'My own pet hate is men, and boys, who wear football tops with their team sponsor across the back and chest as normal everyday going about clothing. Just no to that.'

You and me both. I know it sounds really snobbish but I think it looks utterly chavvy. Speaking as an ageing indie kid (indie adult?) I hate this whole labelled brand culture full stop. But that's just me.

Hi Allen,

Thankyou for your reply,I agree,you raised some good points.and I accept the difficulties you mentioned going through those difficult years 11-16..
Of course as I never realised the reason why I was kept in short trousers at that age,but as you say to make me look considerably younger also had the effect of making my mother look younger.Of course this led to the reason why I was not compatible with my contemporaries.

Comment by: James on 8th May 2025 at 05:44


"Hi Alan,

Yes,my mother was aware that I was teased at school for wearing short trousers and the teachers tried to stamp it,albeit to no effect........."

I suspect that your mum wanted you to LOOK younger so she could FEEL younger, like those actresses who used to take 5 years off their real age - and sometimes a bit more - that explains, - though it doesn't excuse - her behaviour. I really find it unforgivable.

I think sometimes parents (and teachers) forget what it was like to be a teenage lad, all the insecurities and facing abuse on a daily basis, about often the most trivial things. I will never be a parent, but I like to think I would have been a better one, because I have never forgotten those horrible years between 11 - 16, and I think empathy is essential, and should be the goal of parents.

What I meant to say was'as boys that wore short trousers were in a minority they were an easy target for girls and boys alike'.

Hi Alan,

Yes,my mother was aware that I was teased at school for wearing short trousers and the teachers tried to stamp it,albeit to no effect.
As boys were in a minority we were an obvious target for teasing from girls and boys alike.
As it was not my choice to wear short trousers,but my parent's insistence,I considered it unfair.

Greg, to add some more to your 3rd May comment, I think the Norway historic video archive site that Russ was referencing was NRK Filmavisen, look here, it contains mostly films from the 1940's to 1960's, I've only seen a few and they were all black and white. Like Russ said, they all play quite easily on demand and without a need to register to view.

https://tv.nrk.no/serie/filmavisen


I think the more historical archives, either school or PE related or others the better so if anyone has any good content or knows of any good sites that others may be unaware of they should share it.


Graeme your own comment about your female PE teacher being someone who thought boys in your school were better off doing PE shirtless doesn't surprise me in the least. If you read back on here over the past year or two there have been a few comments from people saying they had women take them for PE as boys doing just the same and that they were the equal to any male PE teacher if not worse at times when doing so.

I think with women PE teachers, certainly those from the past when many here were at school, they knew they could get away with taking the shirts off boys backs for PE while the men could never hope to do the same for girls and were rarely even allowed to be in sole charge of an all girls PE lesson.

Regarding the wearing of shorts, I've always been quite happy to wear shorts at any age and still do, smart classy looking ones, not sports type ones. I've done this within the past week although I'm back into long trousers for now again. It helps not to have short fat hairy legs!

Someone asked about our 14 year old schoolboy physiques. Well I liked my legs the most as it happens. They seemed almost perfectly formed! My feet seemed to turn out alright too, size 8's, so not too small but not too big, and no weird shaped bits. I was most critical of my actual body, my upper chest which I always thought could be improved upon but actually was what it should have looked like at the time. I never liked my nipples which I thought seemed larger than most boys, they are probably normal though. I would have liked slightly broader shoulders maybe. No amount of PE was going to change that. As for the personal bit seen in the shower, I'll pass on describing that on here, but to anyone looking at me as a teenage boy in school I don't think it would have given them any great surprises lets just say that.


My own pet hate is men, and boys, who wear football tops with their team sponsor across the back and chest as normal everyday going about clothing. Just no to that.

We had trampoline in our school PE. I loved it. We shared the trampoline with boys. Everyone was expected to have a go and use it at some point. Some liked it more than others and were better at it and more confident to jump really high. I remember that the boys were in bare chests for PE while we wore polo style white tops which were quite thick material with dark blue shorts. Everyone was barefoot on trampoline, infact everyone was for most gym I think.

The main drawback with trampoline gym was only one, or sometimes two people could use it at a time. This meant many of us just watching, leaning along the sides of it. But that didn't matter because I found myself looking on at some of the boys performing that looked nice with bare chests and I didn't get to see many boys like that outside of PE and the less common swimming lessons. I appreciated what they looked like and often wondered if they really liked being in bare chests for PE like that. Nobody ever said they didn't and if any of them were it wasn't obvious to any of us.

I think some boys saw trampoline as a girly thing to do but I knew boys who were really good at it and better than girls.

I don't remember ever having to climb a rope in a school PE lesson, but I do remember watching boys climbing them high up and marvelling at their apparent strength in the arms to hold on.

In our school I thought the boys looked nice with no tops on for PE but as they were all doing it I think it must have been the way they were told to.

Chris 1970 on 3rd May 2025 at 16:24

When I first posted about the ‘student,’ which is what I think we were told, taking our measurements the last time, no one really understood it either, including a few gym teachers on here at that time. I suppose it was unusual, and does now sound quite intrusive I agree, but intrusion it seems, was never a consideration regarded as relevant for boys back then. Perhaps we had been told that he was coming to do this, but I can’t remember that. I wonder whether he measured the girls too? Also, as it took up most on our single gym period, I don’t think we had to do the actual gym lesson on that occasion, but can’t remember whether we still had to shower. Since you mentioned it, I am now wondering whether this person measured between our nipples when we were only 13 or whatever we were, but I do now know that today this measurement is 24.5 centimetres. But I have always been broad shouldered!


Comment by: Yours Truly on 3rd May 2025 at 22:45

You made some interesting points in your reply, with just a few I’d like to clarify. You say, ‘Both genders have an evolved instinct to “cut males down to size.”’ Were you meaning that our adult male gym teacher was the alpha male here, who then felt a need and responsibility to punish his younger male pupils for ‘violating’ their same aged female classmates’ privacy, and therefore, ‘Cut us down to size?’ We all knew immediately that he wouldn’t care that the girls had instigated this situation, and that we were therefore just doing the same, which is why we didn’t even bother to try to explain this, and anyway, he’d caught us red handed.

But what made this situation even more awkward for us boys -also something he'd never know- was that our girl classmates would then become empowered to continue to humiliate us. Perhaps then, are you meaning that this would have been something their adult female gym teacher would have condoned? Interesting.


Comment by: James on 4th May 2025 at 11:06

James, your parents insisting you continue to wear shorts well into your secondary school years is just odd. They would have understood that it wasn't unusual back then for junior school boys to wear shorts, but to then transition to wearing long trousers as soon as they’d started ‘big school.’ It was long known as a right of passage to encourage a feeling of growing up, and something your parents should have welcomed and encouraged.


Comment by: Graeme on 7th May 2025 at 05:27

The few men on here who have mentioned that women took them for school gym, something I never realised before reading on here, always seemed to go on to say that they insisted the boys do gym shirtless. I wonder why!? At least your school was sufficiently respectful to the boys to keep that woman out of your changing room and shower area.


Comment by: Hamish K on 7th May 2025 at 22:13

Since reading and contributing on here I’ve realised how unusual it was that I didn't have to do gym without a top, or bare feet, as unbelievable as it now seems. But it was just as strictly enforced that we all wear our all white kit of, t-shirts, shorts, socks, and plimsols, or in my case, Puma trainers, which I loved. Woe betide any boy who ventured onto the hallowed wooden gym floor wearing outside shoes, apart it seems from our headmaster, who I remembering walking right across the gym floor during one lesson to talk to our gym teacher!

On this shorts thing being talked of here, while I get that boys of secondary age certainly don't want to be forced into shorts as day to day uniform, is the problem with you Yours Truly that you are shy about showing your legs in the same way many here are about their chests, or is it just the wearing of shorts in certain circumstances at a certain age? Were you alright with shorts for normal PE for example, I've never heard anyone who found that a problem, ever, and would be very surprised to hear you say it was in your case, but if you were I'm not going to ridicule you for it.


Yes Greg it was a rather lovely well written drama wasn't it. I didn't recall it because of the bath scene, it was the story being so powerfully told, but I did recall the sudden in the face nudity all the same. It was a simple story, well told, in under an hour and was just so plainly gritty, you felt it. You felt the grief of the dad at the end as if it were real. Why can't they make drama so touching like this anymore Greg? Of it's time, I think you are correct. I believe the young actor who played the cancer sufferer is now dead in real life from cancer too.

I liked the way the naked lad greeting the wheelchair bound boy in the bath area was talking to him half hiding himself behind the door all awkwardly! Perhaps he felt it for real. Imagine being the other chap whose only non speaking walk on part was to walk past and to the bath for a couple of seconds waving his penis to camera. What a claim to fame for an actor that was!

I caught up with an ex-PE teacher of mine a few years ago, it was about 15 years after I'd left school in 1987 at the time. Up here in Dunfermiline where I attended Woodmill school for six years. My ex-PE teacher was still on the staff at the time.

Woodmill High made all the boys take gym in bare chests only while I was there. There was no other option available to any of us at that period in time. Generally speaking it's not as warm here in Fife like it is in all those southern counties of England. I remember speaking about the school gym and the cold feet I used to get on the hard floor, no trainers you see, just brought your feet, and how cold it could be without a top on in the winter especially but not solely, any time really. Boys were always feeling cold in our chilly echoey sounding big gym, wearing short shorts and not a great deal else how else could you feel when you and many of your class don't exactly have a lot of meat and fat on our skinny bodies.

Anyhow, my ex-gym teacher denied to me that our school gym was ever too cold, and I sniped one back telling him he would say that because he was always taking our gym class in t-shirts, full tracksuits often in navy blue, long sleeves and long bottoms too, no shorts, trainers and socks, so of course he didn't notice, while we were all stuck into the shorts alone policy of the school, or the teachers at the time. His answer back to me was that I may have a point! You bet I did, gym teachers were always having a wee laugh like this over us, over dressing themselves and under dressing all of us, and Dunfermline is not one of the warmest places in the UK. I asked if he still worked at school, and he said yes, and if it was still the same and he said yes, this was about 2003 and another whole calendar decade had passed since I left there.

We used to run in the summer in cross country with all our shirts off, but never in winter, although we ran in all weather, wrapped up against the bitterest cold, in one flimsy sweatshirt. If you came to school with a non sports vest under your school uniform shirt you had to remove it and not wear it.

One PE teacher of mine, James McBride, used to accuse the class of being half asleep if he thought we seemed low on energy or were showing signs of lethargy. If this was the case, and he was always saying it, on return to the changing room he only gave us cold or very close to cold showers that he said were designed to wake us up, so if you were in PE and heard the words lethargy or low energy you almost knew you were probably getting the cold shower dose in the showers soon, and whatever the temperature, we were forced to take them.

On some of the coldest Scottish winter afternoons of the 1980s when we were literally frozen despite any running or constant movement when I took my stuff off to shower I used to be more than a wee bit unhappy at how the cold had shrivelled up the size of my wee winkie quite dramatically compared to it's normal size I was familiar with it being, amnd wanting some warm water on it quick to restore my young male pride in front of the others, who had probably all been affected the same as me.

You didn't have any choice about showering, even if you did get a choice, which we didn't. We were always in a great deal of mess coming from the outside after football, rugby or cross country, the cold wet mud clinging to us was legendary, you could never not shower after many of these PE lessons, you had to. We were expected to be a filthy old mess. They even made us shower when the school boiler broke and it was stone cold.

Hi Graeme,

'Madame PE Teacher?' You make her sound like a dominatrix but I suppose that was your intention.

I note you said it was the two oldest teachers who pressed the bare chested thing. I think it was much more common for boys in the postwar years which would presumably be when those two teachers had started their careers.

What age were you when you had her? Depending on her age, and her experience, she may have felt the necessity of asserting herself over a gym full of lairy teenage boys.

Also the activities you say she made you focus on sound like a lot of gymnastic type stuff, for which a shorts-only kit is safe and practical.

I wouldn't have liked doing PE like that either and the thought of having to do it in front of a woman teacher makes me shudder. Before discovering this forum I had never heard of women teachers supervising boys' PE, much less supervising them in the changing room.It really does seem that every secondary school had its own strange idiosyncrasies. At least Madame PE Teacher was not allowed to do that.

I wouldn't have minded having a go at trampolining though but our school didn't haver one.

Hi Alan,

If you read Rob's post closely he says that shorts are optional for both sexes. Suggesting them is all his manager can do.. And if the postmen really disliked her comments they could turn up en masse in long trousers, that would show her.

Women find the idea of men in shorts amusing and Rob's manager is just playing on that. You're right, women have far more entitlement to these kinds of comments but this is doubtless in no small part down to the fact that women very rarely prove to be sex pests.

No doubt he's right and they don't really mind. Think of it: when was the last time you saw a delivery postman in long trousers?

I actually have seen delivery postwomen in those long regulation shorts before, though as Rob says, rarely.

Comment by: Royal Mail Rob on 7th May 2025 at 02:38


"You should work for the Royal Mail guys.

I've got a woman manager at the sorting office and she likes seeing men in shorts on the rounds and suggests it whatever age going......"

I find that appalling Rob. This is a typical example of YT's double standards. I bet if a male manager told this bissom to wear shorts she would be whining about "sexism" and misogyny in the workplace. I would tell her where she could stick her shorts. I always wear trousers and always will. That's the benefit of being self-employed - you don't have to deal with individuals like that.


On shorts in general, (James) I think it is disgusting that your mother made you wear shorts into your teenage years. Did she have no idea about the teasing, bullying and attention she was attracting towards you?. Let's face it, most kids will take the gypsies out of anything. I would have suggested, had my mum been like that, she went out and bought herself some crinolines, bloomers and button boots. It would only have been fair if she practised what she preached. If she wanted to live in the past she should have applied it equally to herself. I bet she didn't though! These days you even see little toddlers wearing long trousers.

Hi Yours Truly.

It must have been very gratifying to be allowed to wear long trousers and give up your shorts at seven.Certainly,when I attended primary school nearly all the boys wore short trousers,so any request to wear long trousers was immediately turned down.I waited patiently to attend my new school when I learned that boys could wear long trousers or shorts.I was shocked as you would have been and my parents were pleased that I would be allowed to wear short trousers for my new school. I was kitted out in my new uniform complete with short trousers at eleven.
When I attended my new school most boys wore long trousers with the exception of a few boys and after informing my mother she was impressed that she chose short for me to wear.

I had 5 different P.E teachers take me for gym while at school some 35 years back. 4 of them were men from quite young to middle aged, 1 was a middle aged woman. School was not regulation shirtless P.E by any means but out of the 5 teachers in gym we had, 2 of them went with doing gym done bare chests A LOT, like 90 percent of the time, they were the oldest two teachers we had and one was the woman who took us for P.E who definitely had the attitude towards boys at school when she was given us for P.E that boys do gym in bare chests and don't need tops on. She was obsessed with trampoline, bench and mat based work and anything involving balance and we sometimes shared her with girls but it was mostly just boys. Most gym I remember was done without plimsolls or socks on. Madam P.E teacher as we sometimes called her was never allowed in our changing area, another male teacher always made sure we did the showers deed and kept tabs on us all.

I never quite got into P.E like that. I liked wearing a top.

You should work for the Royal Mail guys.

I've got a woman manager at the sorting office and she likes seeing men in shorts on the rounds and suggests it whatever age going. Mind you, most guys doing the delivery rounds, on foot or vehicle, do seem to like wearing shorts anyway so it's not a problem, some do so all year long.

But keep an eye out for your post ladies on the rounds, you are unlikely to see many of them wearing female shorts or tiny skirts well above the knee this summer. They are not encouraged to do so incase it leads to unwelcome attention. Yes, really! So we do have a situation where the men are openly encouraged to get our knees out in the fresh air and bare the legs while the women are not. But there's no firm rule on it.

I've had comments about the way I dress in my time, some people think posties look scruffy nowadays, but we dress for comfort on daily rounds, especially the soft shoes. When you are walking about all day you get someone sometime mention your legs if you are in shorts, I've had three or four comments over the last five years or so. I'm not a winter shorts wearer though.

I would not know what the rule is on tops on men, if it was a scorcher and I wanted to do the round without one, but what would put me off that would be sun damage out for hours, rather than embarassment, plus I don't think it would be a good look in the job even if we could and I doubt many would.

Just to mention my schooldays, although I'm only 41 we had our fair share of shirtless PE in my time and I remember sharing such sessions with girls in all the schools I was at from a young age up until close to leaving actually so I'm moderately alright with it as a gym uniform even when not by personal choice. I was taking class group showers in school all through the late 90s from eleven to sixteen, nobody attempted to keep shorts on or anything like that, we all just got naked and got on with it, whatever each of our personal thoughts about doing that were. It's certainly a memorable part of school PE lessons remembering seeing all your class with absolutely nothing on.

Hi James,

What you describe there is my worst nightmare. The difference being, the last time it happened to me I was seven years old. It is actually what gave me what has turned out to be a lifelong preoccupation with double standards. I can't even begin to imagine how I would have felt having to wear shorts at thirteen.

I do remember one of the women teachers, come straight from a PE lesson, taking our Maths lesson still in her short netball skirt. Don't know what the girls thought about it but we boys paid attention.

Hi Yours Truly,
When I wore shorts particularly at secondary school I found that they gave a distinctly childish and immature look to the boys that worm them,including myself.
This look may have appealed to some adults,but most boys wearing long trousers and girls continually mocked and teased the boys that were wearing them.

Steve, the difference today would be that boys would have a choice if they preferred to wear shorts.When I wore shorts and short trousers I was made to wear them continuously.My mother bought shorts for me and never purchased long trousers or jeans in case I refused to wear my shorts.When I returned from school I would change out of my school uniform shorts and change into my satin shorts.These fitted tightly and my mother used to show me off and display me in my shorts.

Hi James,

It's interesting you say 'she'. Women seem to have had a particular thing about boys wearing shorts. It was all women pronouncing the shorts rule at my infant school. And certainly when my teacher brought me into line my mum happily responded by putting me in shorts most of the time. I also remember, in junior school, when I thought I had escaped the tyranny of shorts, our woman teacher one day in summer surveying us in irritation and exclaiming, "All you boys should be in shorts!" She then proceeded to ask every boy in class in turn whether he owned a pair of shorts. I pointed out that mine weren't regulation school grey but she was very quick to say that didn't matter.

Several years ago I was walking through a park with a social group I used to be a part of. There was a group of young boys playing there and one of the women in the group was moved to remark, "I like to see boys in shorts." Another woman responded, "Little boys?" and they both had a good laugh. They weren't being malicious, they just regarded boys in shorts as part of the natural order of things.

I remember, in my last year at secondary school, a class conversation turning to how we had been at primary school. I remember one girl pulling an exasperated face and remarking how one particular boy had always worn short back then. The two boys she told, who had gone to different primary schools, immediately started laughing exultantly and were straight over to him to start the mockery. So both genders associated short trousers for boys with a sense of indignity.

I still think it was weird that your secondary teacher was keeping count of the boys in shorts though. Or maybe not, given my previous observation that women seem to have a thing about boys in shorts. I expect she thought it was amusing to see you in your shorts and also maybe saw it as you say as a way of cutting potentially bolshie young men down to size, by undermining your developing masculinity. I can't be much younger than you but I don't remember a single instance of boys wearing shorts in secondary school. I wonder if they would even have been allowed them? Girls too, officially, weren't allowed skirts above the knee.

Weirdly the same principle worked and works inversely for girls. Miniskirts had a resurgence in the mid-80s and I remember girls in increasingly short skirts, by their own choice, in contrast to your and my experience, and incidentally, very much against the school's rules. Girls seemed to want to get their legs out as they got older. Didn't they feel self-conscious? Didn't they feel vulnerable? They didn't seem to.

And before you expect me to whip out the double standard thing, we boys were bumming the dress rules as well, in our own ways. My school was just very inconsistent.

Yours Truly,It was in the late seventies when satin shorts became fashionable.
I thought it was strange that my teacher counted how many boys were wearing shorts,but she probably wanted to encourage them to wear them.I agree, my parents wanted to keep me in shorts to keep me looking young.