Burnley Grammar School

Mel, that was really interesting to hear about your sons experiences in PE. Is there any more you can add. Why was it only every other week, what was different about those lessons? Do you think it was done for Health and Safety or some other reason.

I remember reading something on a teachers forum a couple of years ago, They had just introduced a policy change to their indoor PE kit because a boy had broken his arm during gymnastics. A loose fitting t-shirt sliding down and getting tangled in equipment was given as the cause of the accident and therefore the school had returned to a shorts only kit. Not just for gymnastics but for all activities. I remember it clearly because it seemed such an extreme thing to do. Could this be your sons school Mel.

The only other time I read about a shorts only kit was on the Ex-Pats forum maybe ten years ago. There, a mother was expressing surprise and consternation that the new school for her two sons aged 9 and 11 had an indoor PE kit of white shorts only. She never said the boys would not be going though. This time the boys are the same age as the ones I teach and it was likely to be a fee-paying school.

Regarding your question David.

"Do you actively disagree with this policy or not though? ….and what your actual attitude is to bare chested PE. In principle are you for or against it, or ambivalent about it?"

I do not disagree with the policy. It is a practical PE kit for summer. There is a good chance it will encourage the boys to be more active in class. They should feel more comfortable and maybe there is even a Health and Safety benefit, or at least the school will have been seen to be reacting to a perceived problem. They are also use to being bare chested together with the girls in swim class where they spend about 25% of the lesson out of the pool.

Lastly I ask a favour. Last post I included a link to a video. Please do not mention the schools name on this forum, The video and others available on YouTube are there to give you a feeling of the school being discussed but not to criticise. Thank you.

Comment by: Mel on 8th March 2024 at 22:17


Mel I would say just because your son doesn't mention it now, doesn't mean to say that he likes it or is comfortable with it. I would take it up with the school.

Remember a few weeks ago a lady called Frances told us that she was still concerned she hadn't taken up something her son told her over 40 years ago?.

I think if more parents were willing to challenge the school on some of the ridiculous "rules" they make up as they go along there might be fewer of them.

Some form teachers aided and abetted by their headmasters, seem to think they are some sort of God, whose word cannot be challenged. Challenge them and see what happens.

Like a few of the people on this forum they seem to think time is marching backwards instead of forwards, and you usually find they have no real answer when you ask the question why.

All this excessive worrying over a bit of physical education being done minus a bit of cloth to cover the torso is surely a bit extreme when there are now two actual teachers on here expressing thoughts about whether they should or not and one is taking votes sand surveying his class about it and another is feeling unsure.

School shouldn't be about voting to choose what you like and don't like. Get them doing PE bare chested whether they like it or not, that's a perfectly acceptable way to turn out in physical education if you are a young male, or an older one too past school age.

I even did PE outdoors without anything on my top half in school once upon a time. Our PE teacher would say something like, 'right lads, leave your tops behind, your getting outside without today, so get a move on' and with that we'd often file out and have to warm up clapping our hands above our heads and jumping on the spot for a few moments on such days. Then we'd be off possibly for a light jog around the school field perimeter a few times, a close collection of upwards of 30 or so totally shirtless teenage boys. Nobody would dissent to it even if they were the incredibly shy about it, and many initially shy boys actually grew to be fine with it.

Boys haven't fundamentally changed that much down the years, so I say forget all this excessive concern and just get on with it if there is a bare chest mandate.

The Yorkshire Dad's comment about schools and decision making hit me there.

My own son goes to a school in Daventry, Northants, and every two weeks he has a gym lesson on the Thursday morning which has been compulsory bare chested for the past two years he has been there, he's just coming up to 14 soon (I'm 46) and he did make a fuss about how much he disliked it when he first began doing so but seems to have accepted it now reluctantly, but doesn't really like doing so. He's one of those boys that isn't really into staying stripped off above his waist at home either.

There was no indication beforehand that PE at the school would be done like that until he came home from his first indoor PE gym lesson proper in September 2021 and told me what he'd done and has since kept on doing. I remember asking him if there was choice in the matter and he told me everyone just got told to do so and remain stripped to the waist after taking their school shirt off.

I've been to a couple of parent/teacher evenings and almost mentioned this but never done so because I don't think it would change anything if that's how they do things, and no he's been doing it for over two years he must have done about 50 PE lessons like it over that time and so it seems a bit late to mention now and he's settled into it.

Comment by: A Yorkshiredad on 8th March 2024 at 15:04




"Schools are not democracies and cannot be run that way, "


A true, but shocking indictment in 2024.

Comment by: A Yorkshiredad on 8th March 2024 at 15:04

Thanks for your response.

Do you actively disagree with this policy or not though?

Also, you didn't answer whether you would be prepared to go skins with your class in those situations and what your actual attitude is to bare chested PE, unless I have missed that somewhere previously.

In principle are you for or against it, or ambivalent about it?

Thanks for your interest, I can quickly give some replies.

David
"Do those affected by this rule your head teacher has chosen to implement actually know what faces them during the summer term, or after Easter? If I remember what you previously said some time ago, this kit policy started last year, am I correct?"

Term 3 or Summer term starts mid-April David when the kids return from Easter holiday. The Year 5 and 6 boys have indeed already experienced the policy, although there are boys who are new to the school in these classes too. For the 8/9 year old boys in year 4 it will be the first time. They will have seen boys doing PE in the hall last year though, its quite open. The Junior boys do indeed know about the kit for summer term, it was in the uniform instructions to parents at the start of the school year, but I doubt they have thought about it much. It will only be when it happens that they will realise how different it will feel to work in class that way.

"Out of interest, in your own schooldays, however long ago they were, did you do PE this way very much and what did you think or feel about it at the time?"

I was their age back in the early 1990's. It was a normal suburban Primary school. For indoor PE I wore a singlet and shorts and had bare feet. I think this was very normal for that time.

Andy
"You could just tell them that you're making a lesson optional bare chests and see what happens, whilst making it clear that next term they are going to have to do so, if that is what the school has infact decided. Do you foresee problems with anyone over this?"

It cannot be optional Andy, partly for the reasons given in a previous post. Schools are not democracies and cannot be run that way, sorry. No opting out.

Every boy must be involved so no-one feels singled out. If every boy is busy being bare top and active at the same time no-body should feel strange, that is the hope. That is why I have ruled out using games in which the boys remove their tops when they get caught. It would mean some boys are fully clothed while others are bare chested. I think from next week I will simply ask the boys to do a fitness session during the lesson towards the end and this will be when I ask them to work without their tops. (Our indoor PE lessons usually involve about 10 minutes of activity to warm up, stretching and running around, followed by 30 minutes of creative movement to music then finally 15 minutes of games.)






https://youtu.be/yrEIq2Z_XCE

A Yorkshire Dad - You could just tell them that you're making a lesson optional bare chests and see what happens, whilst making it clear that next term they are going to have to do so, if that is what the school has infact decided. Do you foresee problems with anyone over this? I think if the teacher is willing and able to take the lesson without his own top on and be shirtless for gym it could also act as encouragement in itself, that's if it's even needed, it might not be.

Just don't make going bare chests in PE into a big deal with them. Try and play it down as an entirely routine way to expect a group of boys to be like in the gym, even in 2024, and tell them how we've all been there and done it before them.

Comment by: Richard on 7th March 2024 at 20:51
These are my own Filton High schooldays gym pictures on Flickr. Not my actual class but one a year earlier than mine, same gym though, but much the same to look at. Bare chests for me started in 1975 and were mandatory for all in our gym PE lessons and remained that way further up the years. I put them up on here before about a month ago.




Looks like you forgot to put the links up in your post. So I will do it for you! Some nice photo's there, including the two of your shirtless gym on display.

https://www.flickr.com/people/134490316@N07

https://www.flickr.com/photos/134490316@N07/

My suggestion to you A YorkshireDad is to do what you suggest, break any new class unused to shirtless PE in gently with it if you think that works best. I do though think you can sometimes rather overthink this however. Just act like doing PE like that is the most normal thing in the world, because it is really.

These are my own Filton High schooldays gym pictures on Flickr. Not my actual class but one a year earlier than mine, same gym though, but much the same to look at. Bare chests for me started in 1975 and were mandatory for all in our gym PE lessons and remained that way further up the years. I put them up on here before about a month ago. Overall I think it might have given us a better body image to be seen and see everyone for what they are in our actual 'skin'.


Picking up a point on commercial gyms desiring coverage and not showing actual bodies while on their premises, can this really be the case? I saw a really peculiar video which made the news from the USA about a year ago in one gym over there where someone minding their own business working out shirtless in a quiet gym was approached by a very creepy man asking about his shirtless working out. The whole incident was filmed and was very strange indeed. Maybe someone else can find it online and post it, or knows about it.

James Finch, it was nice to see your own video from South Africa. I agree it looked like a typical British sports day, and I also noticed the lack of trainers on the feet of nearly all of you lot there. I think there is a thought process that suggests that trainers restrict proper movement and running completely barefoot is actually far more beneficial than sticking the latest hundred quid nikes on your feet even if they have the latest air cushion technology and are lightweight.

Yorkshire Dad, your own suggestion sounds quite sensible. Do those affected by this rule your head teacher has chosen to implement actually know what faces them during the summer term, or after Easter? If I remember what you previously said some time ago, this kit policy started last year, am I correct?

Like has been said to Nathan Hind on here, would you be allowed to or be prepared to simply discard your own top and lead by example when you are expected to take class bare chested? Maybe an indication of your own age would be helpful here. Would you even think it appropriate for yourself? Has anyone directly asked the head teacher about his rule or questioned it?

Out of interest, in your own schooldays, however long ago they were, did you do PE this way very much and what did you think or feel about it at the time. It's obvious you have reservations.

Some of the Nathan suggestions by others to him have been quite reasonable I thought, but in the end there's nothing wrong with doing PE like that in my opinion even with some who are less assured.

Reading so many of your memories that mention dislike of working in PE bare chested made me think that if possible, the implementation of the same kit policy at this school next term should be introduced in a careful way.

Should i introduce the boys to working without their tops on for part of the lesson in these last few weeks before Easter holidays. I do think it should be done in a way that includes everybody. No-one should feel singled out. Perhap Mr Hind or others could suggest for me an activity best suited for this. Mr Hind, which activities do you sometimes ask your year 7 boys to do in just shorts?

I have come to the conclusion that it would be a good idea to let them feel how it is to be active in a PE lesson bare top, hopefully they will come away feeling it is less stange. It will be less impact full for ghem when after Easter holidays they are asked to leave their PE tops at home.

Here is another early PE lesson video, see if anyone can find one even older. If you have ever wondered were the whole idea of PE without a top on came from here is your answer,

https://www.dr.dk/bonanza/serie/702/dka/71344/gymnastik-i-1931

Shirtless PE as it was meant to be, outdoors in the fresh air, army style to get the kids ready for the next war.

Most school now have PE kit of shorts, vest-t shirt, trainers and socks.

I wondered if anyone knows of any where this is the "formal" kit, but where boys are free to skip items if they want, without any form of sanction. If so how many go shirtless, and how many strip to only shorts ?

As per Rudolph's suggestion, to test that out against the survey results which were 24 to 2 or 3 would be revelatory because if the PE teacher was to state at the start of the PE lesson as they changed that shirts or chests were optional I would be quite surprised to see such a figure replicated in those circumstances. I think what the class might have decided in principle doing that snap survey would be somewhat different in the actual reality of the moment given that actual choice in their own hands on the spot. Certainly something worth testing.

Surely the point of Nathan's survey was to establish the attitudes of two of his classes. He has sampled his populations at 100 o/o. He is not extrapolating to much larger populations, just reporting the outcomes.
My only suggestion - try a few lessons where the lads get to choose, vest or no-vest. And make that the general approach throughout the school, unless conditions dictate otherwise.

Comment by: Stephen on 6th March 2024 at 23:16



Except Stephen, you left off three words of your edited quote from me, which were "on one word". If you are only going to quote selected portions, it is usual to follow that with three dots ... to show an edit has been made. Cheat fair, Steve.

For the sake of clarity I repeat the quotation if full: "This fixating on one word seems to be a favourite ploy when others can't - or won't - answer a straightforward question"

Somebody else, like Robbie himself, choosing not to respond to the more serious point I had made - i.e. why modesty seems to be a requirement at commercial gyms, but not in school. The question is - why?

“Sometimes people don’t want to hear the truth because they don’t want their illusions destroyed.” – Friedrich Nietzsche

Speaking practically, all a young male needs to do physical education in a gymnasium or sports hall in school is a pair of shorts on, anything else is just clutter.

I remember when I used to do PE at local senior comprehensive school back some 45 to 50 years ago now and the enjoyment I got out of being able to get out of a stifling school uniform trussed up with shirt collar tight on my neck and the tie tightened around too and a heavy blazer, long socks and heavy leather shoes. It was a pleasure to go along to gym PE and have a chance to get all that off and saunter along to the school gym for PE as any of my teachers of PE wanted us, in shorts and nothing else at all. I welcomed such an opportunity to cast just about everything I had on aside. We shared the gym in PE with lots of girls too at the time. I know some people say they felt vulnerable like that but in my case I actually felt rather confident in doing so, and when it came to showers in school I took to those like a duck to water too but you could see that such things pained others and they would work themselves up into a real state about showers at school, going shirtless or just PE in general. Luckily I wasn't one of those.

Here is a site called Teen Hut where just a few months ago some modern school kids were talking about old PE ways and uniform, such as this comment here;

'In school in assembly last week we were watching some old footage from the school. There were some clips from some old PE lessons in the 80s and it was very funny seeing the uniform as it was different to what is normal today. Girls were wearing leotard-like costumes and leggings. And the boys had to go shirtless and just wear shorts, even in mixed lessons with girls! Some of the boys seemed to think that was quite awkward when we talked about it afterwards.

How do you think you would have found this old style of kit? Do you think it would be practical, or embarrassing or unfair? Did anyone here have to wear a kit they found awkward or embarrassing?'

https://www.teenhut.net/thread/170253-old-fashioned-physical-education-uniform-at-school/

Alan tonight responding to Robbie- "this insidious nit-picking and fixation"

As someone so acutely self aware and self conscious I'm sure this comment of yours will make you blush enormously won't it for the momentary lapse of self awareness on your part, I very respectfully suggest.

Tony, on the small sample size, I daresay you're right.

Comment by: Matthew S on 6th March 2024 at 17:01
It is interesting that 88% of the 12- to 13-year-old boys and 92% of the 13- to 14-year-old boys in Nathan Hind's two classes were unconcerned about doing PE with no shirts on, at the very age when, as Adrian says, you might reasonably expect self-consciousness to be at its greatest, and also at a time when obesity rates are high.
If pupils went one at a time to place their coins, whether each coin placed was heads up or tails up might not have been discernible at a distance of even two metres.



I think I'd been very keen to see a far bigger sample size on that question to be completely honest about it. It would come as a big surprise to me to see that ratio repeated across all others to that extent. We have Cedric here saying out of his two sons one wasn't keen for instance. By the way, nice to have some thought from someone delving further back than many can manage on here so welcome Cedric, and it was interesting and backed up a couple of other recent posts about boys at school furthest back in memory doing PE in vests and t-shirts, often pristine whites, and then boys in more recent pre-millennium decades like the 70's and 80's switching to the bare chest way of doing things more often than not.


James, one thing I noticed about the school YT clip of yours was that you did athletics outside without trainers on, nearly all seemed barefoot on the grass running. As you said you were in South Africa at the time this reminded me of the famous South African runner Zola Budd who caused a fuss in 1984 doing that in competition, so I was interested to see the whole school running outside like that which doesn't seem the normal way. But at least you all kept your vests on and I'm sure that will please our Alan here. No offence Alan!

Some people have been querying my use of the word "exhibitionistic" in relation to the few men who use public/private gyms, minus a shirt. I can only say that when the majority of men wear shirts, and the few who don't flaunt themselves in a way the others don't,(posing usually at the windows or door) then that is a fair use of the word I chose. With all due respect, some of you have been so busy jumping on that word, you seem to have missed the final lines of that observation - namely why school students are not allowed the same degree of modesty that Tim's, for example, gym demands of adults. This fixating on one word seems to be a favourite ploy when others can't - or won't - answer a straightforward question.

Cedric: I can understand why some lads, through nervousness or embarrassment , (several posters have referred to the modern "towel dance", so it is a fairly common occurrence) don't like using group showers. My problem at school was that our teacher used to enjoy watching us (I can see him now, forty years on standing there watching with his hands in his track suit - many of the lads used to comment on that). It is sad that men of that sort seek work with children and teenagers. In this day and age there are so many alternatives for them - personal trainers, work in the numerous private gym companies (our town has three in the town centre alone, and there are others around the town on the outskirts), or coaching adults. I always despised being amongst his free entertainment. There are many jobs for the athletic homosexual beyond the school gates, even though the holidays will be shorter.

Yesterday I referred to Craig as "Chris" - my apologies - I am surprised only Robbie has pulled me up on that one!. Anyway, the same comment applies. What people chose to do privately is their own concern, not mine. But please, Robbie, stop trying to stir up trouble. where none exists, That is all I am saying on the subject. Why not take up some of the other points I have made, instead of this insidious nit-picking and fixation on one word.

It is interesting that 88% of the 12- to 13-year-old boys and 92% of the 13- to 14-year-old boys in Nathan Hind's two classes were unconcerned about doing PE with no shirts on, at the very age when, as Adrian says, you might reasonably expect self-consciousness to be at its greatest, and also at a time when obesity rates are high.

If pupils went one at a time to place their coins, whether each coin placed was heads up or tails up might not have been discernible at a distance of even two metres.

Comment by: Alan on 5th March 2024 at 18:14
Comment by: Robbie on 5th March 2024 at 15:28
It is not my affair what Chris gets up to Robbie. Please don't try to put words into my mouth.



It was Craig, the bareskin running chap, not Chris.

You used a very general term - 'a few men do choose to display themselves without shirts, but these, I suspect are exhibitionists' - these are the words you used, and I was just citing Craig as an actual example to make my point to you.

So do you think such activities as that are undertaken by mere exhibitionists, when grown adults choose to do so? You gave what was a classic politician's non answer to an easy question!


Comment by: Cedric on 5th March 2024 at 22:31
I also remember that everyone seemed quite able and very fit indeed, and we were still on post war rationing at the time and so were often quite hungry. Even the sweets were limited.
I was at a grammar school in the late 40's and early 50's. I am now 86.


Now you really are going back in time there Cedric. What a great point you make about being on rations and yet everyone still remaining fit, active and with the energy to do PE effectively back then still.

Following on from some of the sports day and gym videos placed here, I grew up in South Africa and went to school in Durban until I was 13 years old and my family returned to the UK. Sports day over there was actually very English and even the name of my primary school was probably more English sounding than actual schools back here, it was called Manor Gardens Primary School.

I am in the clip from 1979, in white vest, shorts & barefoot doing 200 metres and also tug of war.

https://youtu.be/0iVdPT22mus?feature=shared

Sorry to go back to such an old comment but I just read this from Bill....

Comment by: Bill on 1st December 2023 at 00:00
Craig - "bareskin runner" man.

About half the boys I saw cross country running out of Queensbury Academy in Dunstable on Monday afternoon this week were running along shirtless with entirely bare chests. They looked to be about 15 to me. There must have been at least 20 doing that. It looked very old school and like they might have even been divided up like that deliberately but it was impossible to tell.




My own son is hoping to study sports sciences at uni next year, he's currently in a sixth form and there's a running club in school that now does just the same as you have described here Bill, not at this school however, so it's not unique, and he runs through suburban Sheffield and enjoys it immensely. I do not know the exact numbers involved but it's a dozen or so I think. Anything that gives rise to a healthy mind and body is alright with me. I'm sure exhibitionism has nothing to do with it although being naturally confident obviously helps and he's got that.

Comment by Alan on 5th March 2024.
Where showers are concerned - personally I am pro shower.


I am also in favour of compulsion when it comes to the after PE hygiene routine. Awkwardness never lasted long with these things in my school and once everyone had got that first couple of times out the way, seeing each other nude after PE became so routine it was almost nothing.

I do not recall taking part in gymnastics at school without a white vest and black shorts. I also remember that everyone seemed quite able and very fit indeed, and we were still on post war rationing at the time and so were often quite hungry. Even the sweets were limited.

Later on both my sons went on to grammar schools also and would be seen sporting the bare chest when I visited for sports afternoon annually. I had no concerns about this, but one was much less confident than the other and wasn't so keen.

I was at a grammar school in the late 40's and early 50's. I am now 86.

@ David - 16.15 - Thanks ...

@ Stuart B - 17.41 something to do with what people wear in health clubs ... 'nuff said - its over.
T

Comment by: Stuart B on 5th March 2024 at 17:41
I'm scratching my head here trying to work out what the actual point of the exchange here is between Alan and Tim. I've read the posts through twice and still don't get it.
It doesn't make sense to me, does it to anyone else?



No. No sense whatsoever. What is the point of this argument/exchange?

Please explain.

Comment by: Robbie on 5th March 2024 at 15:28


It is not my affair what Chris gets up to Robbie. Please don't try to put words into my mouth.

I'm scratching my head here trying to work out what the actual point of the exchange here is between Alan and Tim. I've read the posts through twice and still don't get it.

It doesn't make sense to me, does it to anyone else?