Burnley Grammar School

So Archie has changed his tune? A teacher there then. A result. I wonder how many more Archie's are out there?

I thought that Mark sounded lovely. I had some really nice men take me for PE during that decade you taught Mark, but I always thought a few of them felt they had to play up to the typical PE teacher stereotype. I had one man who admitted to our whole class he'd happily let us all out the door without showering last lesson of the day but couldn't risk getting found out doing so by the headmaster we had at the time because it could affect his career!!!!

I had another PE teacher who was actually German who was on a one year exchange to our school with one of our own from this country. He was worse than any of the English PE teachers we had, went the full scale bare chest route for his lessons in PE, inside gym as well as a lot outside through early summer and was literally a madman when it came to enforcing us going into the showers in his German accent. We used to mimic him mercilessly both behind his back and sometimes to his face and he had no sense of humour whatsoever about it.

What inspirational decency from Mark Twyford.

I think you handled that boy remarkably well and what an outcome to get him to finally approach you and change his mind. I suspect you thought he might end up doing this eventually.

I detect a far more positive attitude generally in recent reads and a new found respect. Good!

I'll add my own praise for what I saw written here by Mark Twyford last night which I think was so nicely said. We have heard too much about "Roberts" and not enough about the decency many of our teachers had, as Mark said, in some quite difficult circumstances on occasion.

Mark mentioned how he dealt with football for instance, as well as the difficulties, and that nails it. You have a random collection of about 30 boys come together into a class, of all kinds of abilities, interests, personalities, the confident, the unconfident, the shy and the cocky and with that one big mix a man is expected to deal with them all in the same way, do much the same thing with them all, and is it any wonder that's harder then it seems. When you look at it like that it begins to seem an almost impossible task to keep everyone happy with their lot.

If that proves to have been your one and only post Mark then it was a cracking good one, and I though Nathan had some good ones too, nice to see you acknowledge that by the way Nathan.

A Yorkshiredad, I think quite a few people have asked for a follow up so nice to see you come along with one again.

This line is one I will take a pick at with you, if this was offered as an actual explanation and I'm sure other actual teachers on here might wish to comment who know more than me, but serious heat exhaustion as you describe it is not going to be caused by anyone wearing a single layer t-shirt on a hot summer's day in a PE class I feel sure that it would take a lot more than that to cause such a reaction.

A Yorkshiredad; 'It seems that just before my arrival at this school a couple of boys did suffer the effects of serious heat exhaustion, (head aches, nausea, lethargy), while in PE so the change in kit is designed to pre-empt this happening again'

Sorry Archie, I have popped back onto the site a couple of times since posting but I got the impression there was not much interest in my post. If you have questions please ask them again.

The change in summer indoor kit did seem very strange at first but I have to say that it soon became normal. No boys complained openly and neither did any parent, which is why I was so interested when I first found this site and read peoples own testimonies.

My own son is eight now and at this school so next year it will apply to him. My wife and I feel the school policy is out of tune with todays norms but as long as my son shows no concern we wont either. I guess the other parents will be the same. Seeing all the boys are conditioned to obey teachers instructions at school this probably explains their quiet acceptance of the situation.

It seems that just before my arrival at this school a couple of boys did suffer the effects of serious heat exhaustion, (head aches, nausea, lethargy), while in PE so the change in kit is designed to pre-empt this happening again. If the children became ill at school the parents would have had to be informed and you can easily understand the school would not want that to happen again. As there was no reoccurrence of heat exhaustion last year you could say the policy worked.

Like others, may I offer my Thanks to Mark Twyford for his recent posting.

TH

Another interesting set of comments. I would just take issue with oen of them:

Comment by: Stuart B on 18th February 2024 at 16:06

"The term "Body Shaming" is a modern day buzzword, a kind of soundbite.

The simple truth is that this "body shaming" if we must now use that term was rampant in school PE lessons under some men, not all of course.

If you've got a 15 stone 14 year old then it's quite fair to draw attention to such an unhealthy body weight and shape I think. I think there are things that can be said about the body that are fair, such as the example I give. To simply ignore it would be negligent I'd suggest to you."

Yes Stuart it is a modern expression, and I tend not to use them ("calling so-and so out" is my bete noir) but in the cases Mark Maynard and myself mentioned, where a teacher has either joined in with pejorative comments, started or continued it, what else can you call it?.

I have to say I never remember an obese lad in our class, and I suspect in some cases when this occurs it is a glandular problem rather than gluttony, and while I agree with you if a situation is dangerous to health it should be remarked upon - but HOW you do it is the question. If I were confronted with that sort of problem, I would contact the parent(s). I don't think showing the lad up in front of his class is the right way to go about things.

Don''t think I am having a go at you, Stuart, but there seems to be two types of PE teacher who give trouble - those who think they are army PT instructors and want to turn out army fodder rather than well rounded individuals, and those who regard themselves as a bit of an entertainer or showman, and regard their classes as a studio audience to laugh at their wit. Such as it is.

The question remains - it was hinted at by somebody other than myself, why do PE teachers think they are a special case?. You couldn't get through your school years without learning to read and write, but leaping over objects, climbing ropes and jumping to attention at the blast of a whistle is fairly unimportant, unless you want a career in sport, which is usually short-lived anyway. Most professional sportsmen are retired by the time they are 40.

Well isn't it good to see some common sense teachers putting in a bit of comment tonight.

There is very little I can disagree with regarding what Mark Twyford put in his post, and without knowing the full facts in his case I cannot comment satisfactorily on his own story about the boy and whether we would have acted the same or not. If I am to be completely frank I would have been unlikely to have followed that course. It just prolongs the problem which is best nipped in the bud quickly.

Although I hold slightly differing opinions nowadays I did not think anyone who was a boy in school should hold any fears while sharing with those the same as himself, all boys together, the same age, were expected to knuckle down and act like grown ups, empathy for the kinds of things that get talked about on here was in short supply.

Our school had its fair share of problem boys, no more or less than anywhere else and I can confirm the same as Mark Twyford that there were a small minority who would wish not to take a shirtless lesson but I never saw notes about it. I think we might have had a handful of shower exemption requests, possibly by letter to the head that got passed along. The final decision would have been the head of PE on that but there was little chance of success there. We were not going to start creating one rule for some and another for the majority. Everyone was expected to do the same, showering or shirtless PE when needed. I had little sympathy for those who played about making a fuss about such things in their underhand ways at the time. But I've changed my tune nowadays.

There was some leeway over PE participation however. Such as flu recovery. If we had boys that had been off school for more than a week and had returned but were still feeling weakened by it there was an allowance to exempt PE for a further week, and that seemed fair and reasonable to me. But this did have to be accompanied by a note detailing the illness and if possible it helped if the family doctor could provide something too but wasn't essential, we took the parents word as proof enough. If we were in doubt about a note it got passed to the school admin to follow up and come back to us and confirm.

What a pity the Yorkshire Dad teacher has chosen not to respond to the multiple requests to do so surrounding his own question he raised about his head's request this summer for his PE classes. I would have liked to hear more.

Many people who disliked PE in their own childhood will have looked at what Bill wrote and found that to be a backward old school step, but actually I take the view that it is a far more forward looking and healthy option to allow that kind of PE if desired. I concur with the follow up takes on what is likely to have been occurring there.

Shirtless PE was always applied where I was in a completely non discriminatory way, everyone had to do it when told. I don't see that as anything unkind to ask of anyone in school, but unlike when I was in the thick of it myself I'd be more willing to listen than I, and most others once were.

For his era, I found the actions of Mark Twyford most enlightening and unusual compared to my own expectations and experience.

From 13-18 I attended a mixed school which placed a big emphasis on PE/Games. Vests were preferred to t-shirts though both were on the kit list but t-shirts were never worn.
Indoors vests vs skins were preferred for team games and those picked to strip off were expected to do so very quickly and without fuss.
Gym/fitness were performed with all boys barechested, and expected to show sweat
Cross country and athletics were always performed barechested too. I did receive remedial PE sessions during my time which resulted in being taken out of class, changing into shorts/trainers and absolutely no vest and instructed to run around the rather large field until basically you couldn't run any further and regardless of the conditions. Yes I really do mean any weather.
Then you had the joy of catching up whatever was missed. Once a month our teachers also had each PE/Games class workout outside all boys barechested.Tough but worth every second.

Mark Twyford.

An absolutely stunningly good and ultimately positive post about a PE teacher from one himself.

The school I was at, Filton High, just before you were a teacher, did PE all the time in gym like you wrote. I don't actually remember anyone actually wanting to escape being bare chested like that so openly and I doubt they would have been allowed actually but it;s possible I suppose if a parent is pushy enough about it.

A reminder of my school gym from Flickr, catch the rest of what I wrote on 6th February, not my actual class but the gym the year before I got there, but boys just like me all the same.

I could not imagine just one boy in my PE gym wanting to stand out alone against the rest of us like that.

It does not surprise me that boy changed his mind within only a few months and came asking you that when he didn't. That's the power of peer pressure for you and a feeling of wanting to belong that even overode a boy with such a deep sense of shyness about his appearance that his mum made school contact about it. Ultimately the belonging and wanting to bond with his mates won out and did him a great favour by the sound of it, with the help of a decent bunch of teachers along the way to help him through. Fabulous!

https://www.flickr.com/people/134490316@N07

https://www.flickr.com/photos/134490316@N07/

Very nice post Mark. I do hope that it's accepted for what it is and not confronted with too much negativity from anyone.

Comment - Mark Twyford on 18th February 2024 at 18:36

The comment highlighted above was such an interesting one.

I was also one of those boys in school who ended up having to learn the hard way and it working out, thinking I could easily skip PE and not do so or get given something else to do simply by not bringing my PE kit at an age similar to the boy you wrote about. In my case I was simply stripped to my pants and sent out to do the class. One time only for me.

I was feeling almost physically sick with nerves at one point and terrible but I put myself in that situation and knew not to do so again. The teacher called my bluff, and to think I thought I was going to outsmart a teacher at that age, my inner confidence about that contrasted greatly with my lack of confidence when I was down to my pants for an hour. I was thin and didn't want to be at that age at all.

Coming into secondary schools used to come as a big shock to some of us but we soon grow up and many of us don't stay so thin either, have you seen the old pictures of the late Steve Wright, actually a quite obese man nowadays but incredibly thin on TV when he was in his twenties, he must have been absolutely skeletal at school wherever he went but ended up dying of obesity in all probability.

Mark Twyford - What a great sounding PE teacher and a really great anecdote. Come back anytime.

Comment by: Mark Twyford on 18th February 2024 at 18:36


Mr Mark Twyford I applaud that comment and hold you in the highest regard for it and yet you relate it to a period forty years ago as well, partly before I was even born. I'm so pleased you have written that here. It ought to be beyond criticism.

I had not planned a return anytime soon but that made me do it.

I will keep this as a one time post only if you don't mind.

I taught physical education lessons for a period of 12 years between the age of 30 and 42, from 1979 until 1991.

An actual class within the confines of the school gymnasium or the sports hall would be as many have described for the time regards dress requirements, so I won't go into that any further.

During the dates above I worked in what I can describe as two perfectly normal state run comprehensive and secondary schools among a PE roster with a regular collection of six to eight other male colleagues.

The one thing that would irritate me or anyone else would be that pupil who was unwilling to participate properly and would show this clearly. This could be with a lack of trying, pretending to forget the PE kit, feigning illness or complete truancy.

At times a physical education class could be quite a task to control effectively.

I used to be quite frustrated myself by over sensitive boys at times. Not because I didn't care about them but because they could often be their own worst enemy. Many such boys had nothing at all to be concerned about and I'd often say so on written reports back home. That sensitivity could relate to participation in certain activity, or how they appeared.

I always knew that not all boys like football for example. But it was a compulsory part of the remit at the time to do some. With those who I knew lacked the skill or were mostly uninterested I would take them aside and give them a smaller 5 a side with each other and leave them to it, and it worked. The more football inclined ones and me then continued nearby on the bigger pitch. It worked well.

That's just one example.

In the school gymnasium that period always involved an element of what became known as the skins against shirts team participation. In my case the fairest way I used to decide this was to ask the pupils to separate into two equal groups of their own choice, or my choice. I would then pull out a shiny 50p piece from my pocket and say to one group if it's heads you are shirts and the other if it was tails they would be the skins, a bare chest appearance. The coin would be flipped high into the air and allowed to fall on the ground for all to see clearly. Decision made quickly and fairly. Once made there was no discussion, I would expect the choice to be carried out and one group to slip off their vests so we could get on. This took only a few seconds.

Everyone does things slightly differently, that was my way.

I was quite well aware that there are some who are not keen on such things but have never thought that complete avoidance is the answer.

I will now explain a real life example of why this is. One day I received a letter from a parent, the mum of a child who was about 12 years old and not long at the school. He had been unhappy and I was asked to allow him not to take his shirt off like that in such classes. This I knew could prove troublesome for the young man in question, so with permission I telephoned the lady during school hours while her boy was still at school. Having listened and then consulted with others I and they agreed to the request.

I distinctly remember making it clear to the mum over the phone that some of our classes often involved all the boys removing their vests in PE, and I didn't want the child to become a figure of fun. But we agreed to the request all the same. He was sensitive and extremely unconfident for no reason he needed to be, I still remember his name.

Eventually we came to a PE lesson in our sports hall that I knew might prove a problem, where the whole class would be doing the fortnightly fitness session, timed and recorded, traditionally done in a bare chest look and this young man would stand out, which he did of course. There was some questioning by others about this but I offered up a quick reason for him and it was left alone, a one off was not the problem, it was the continuation of this boy being the sole child in class who would not remove a top or be asked to that began to develop problems I could see.

Within three months he realised his sensitivity was counter productive and came up to me and told me he had decided to change his mind. At the first PE lesson when he returned to being like the others when asked, there was a cheer and applause, mostly genuine I thought, and I put my arm around his shoulders for encouragement as a well done.

I think he moved on quickly and gained in confidence. I remember giving this young man some very good marks actually. That's what is so frustrating about insensitive and overly shy ones, they are quite often not the ones who have any need to be at all.

I can only offer this in the spirit of encouragement.

The term "Body Shaming" is a modern day buzzword, a kind of soundbite.

The simple truth is that this "body shaming" if we must now use that term was rampant in school PE lessons under some men, not all of course.

If you've got a 15 stone 14 year old then it's quite fair to draw attention to such an unhealthy body weight and shape I think. I think there are things that can be said about the body that are fair, such as the example I give. To simply ignore it would be negligent I'd suggest to you.

When it comes to the other extreme, that's less clear cut. Mostly it's boys that get spoken of on here, and they don't tend to get anorexic like young women do. But if that looked to be the case and someone was becoming exceptionally thin with bones appearing more than they should I think it would also be fair to raise, in an appropriate manner, not in front of a class let's just say. That would be unfair.

But just to make reference to normal kinds of thin or a bit overweight boys for the sake of it is something that I don't think is the job of anyone, and any PE teacher who knows his stuff knows about growing bodies and that there are three main body types we get as adults and we get what we are given to a certain extent and have to work within that.

Ectomorph - This is when the body is lean and slender and tends to have less body fat and muscle.

Endomorph - This is when the body has more stored fat, lots of muscle, and gains weight easily.

Mesomorph - This is when the body is athletic and strong.

<<It would be nice to think the days of ordering people about are over - but I doubt it. Even in recent times Nathan told us that he still decides to have "shirtless lessons" in his gym. To be entirely fair to him, this might be an edict from one of his superiors, but if I were a head teacher my question would be this: If it is OK to wear a shirt on Monday, why not on Tuesday as well?>> says Alan here early today.



But it's not about what day of the week it is, is it, it's about what they were doing wasn't it, that was the factor in his decision I thought.

When you posted that Grange Hill clip that included the boys in the semi circle all in their full whites, that lesson was more or less how I remember many of mine, except we were not in anything like the whites, we all had to turn up like a lot of Benny Green's instead, in the bare basics as I tend to think of it.

Some teachers, mostly past ones, just seemed to be the kind to go with that I suppose, although in my case at secondary school my memory is gyms filled with shirtless and bare footed boys diving about, up and down things and grabbing onto each other a lot.

At least we knew where we stood, whether it was liked or not. A teacher who kept changing on a whim what was wanted would have driven me crazy, if I was lugging PE kit into school and then not using it.

When I got older (about 15) there was one PE teacher we had who suddenly decided the shower rules that had always been the thing we always had to do were relaxed, just like that, so I got annoyed I was bringing a towel in my bag and not needing it. The trouble was it was only this one man that did this and any other teacher we had made very sure we went into those showers like we always expected after PE. But you didn't always know for sure which teacher was taking you on any given day, it could have been any one of about four.

I had the more relaxed teacher for a string of gym classes (but we were still shirtless) and stopped bringing the towel on those days anymore as he was letting us off showers, most didn't shower but a couple continued to do so anyway. But then I got caught out without a towel when we went back to another teacher for gym without warning and back it was to all in the showers no excuses and had to explain why I didn't have a towel on me. At the time I thought I gave a good reason but it was made clear to me that I brought one any day I had PE stuck on the timetable. Rules of course.

Comment by: Mark Maynard on 17th February 2024 at 23:36


If it is any consolation your physique at 15 was a lot better than mine, Mark.



"The worst thing I ever did in PE was a group of us being made to decide who had the puniest body because at the time there was something of a joke on TV called Mr Puniverse and it encouraged one of my teachers to give it a go in the gym at one stage when I must have been closing in on 16. This so called light entertainment had an effect on me as I thought I looked too similar to those I saw on TV even though I was quite a few years younger and still just about at school. I remember disbelieving that anyone would want to go on TV and open themselves up to ridicule in front of millions like that ... It would not happen today. But I suppose nobody made them go on and do it. Some people used to do anything to get on TV. Some people still do."

I remember writing on here a few years ago that I was astonished that candidates who wanted to become teachers had to undergo a medical,examination (to see if they were fit enough to write on a whiteboard with ink markers?) - somebody I knew was contemplating becoming a teacher. I believe he changed his mind and went into something else. I suggested at the time it would be more pertinent if they had to undergo a mental examination instead., and your teacher seems a prime example of the need for it. How could anybody encourage what we would now call body shaming to such an insensitive degree. I have mentioned previously how much Roberts enjoyed picking up on the "TinRibs" nickname for me and "Frankenstein" for my mate Mark. He, and your teacher, should have been above such name calling, and says far more about them, and the state of their minds than it did about the pupils.

As for the last ;part of your message, people would still do anything to appear on TV, however much ridicule they heap upon themselves - even so-called celebrities - I have never watched it but there is a BBC show forever trailed on BBC1 where a grinning idiot of a comedian Michael McIntyre(?) has contestants rolling around in what looks like massive wheelchairs and Channel 4 excel themselves with things like "Naked Attraction", where people actually appear stark b*llock naked looking for sex. Again I have never watched it, but there are numerous articles in the press, and that is before we get to the programmes where money can be won. I can never understand why people want to be on TV of any sort. I suppose I Am A Celebrity is the nadir of such trash TV where a load of has-beens and never-weres will descend to extraordinary levels of vulgarity to try to restart dead careers. Nigel Farage recently, God help us.

For anyone wondering about my own build following my comment previously I think I was about 7 stone and 5 foot 7 inches at 15 year old. I was definitely thin but no more so than so many others.

The worst thing I ever did in PE was a group of us being made to decide who had the puniest body because at the time there was something of a joke on TV called Mr Puniverse and it encouraged one of my teachers to give it a go in the gym at one stage when I must have been closing in on 16. This so called light entertainment had an effect on me as I thought I looked too similar to those I saw on TV even though I was quite a few years younger and still just about at school. I remember disbelieving that anyone would want to go on TV and open themselves up to ridicule in front of millions like that in the days of mass audiences and four channels, showing off such wimpy bodies, thin arms and bony thin chests. It would not happen today. But I suppose nobody made them go on and do it. Some people used to do anything to get on TV. Some people still do.

Russ - "I think what Bill has seen isn't comparable with others who have spoken of their pasts in normal school PE lessons, such as cross countries stripped down. I think in the case mentioned it seems like a sports focused school in some way where obviously older ones are making decisions for themselves rather than being imposed which accounts for what you saw and the answer the nearby resident gave you, and it was such a very warm February day yesterday I don't blame them. It sounds like a place with a very relaxed and healthy attitude, but not as I say worth comparing to your average unfit 14 year old being sent out to run a few miles in the cold in 1975 perhaps."


I think you are probably right there Russ. I would not expect to see that very much in this day and age but having done so I do not believe they would be forced into running like that against their wishes like so many other boys did in the past times (me included) when they really were given no say in the matter, and I suppose for many boys it is seen as quite a personal decision to make about themselves and some clearly felt violated when that decision was taken out of their own hands and made for them. I didn't but obviously many did. What I've seen I found to be surprising, but also rather refreshing and interesting to observe, but nothing like old times, they all looked remarkably comfortable in their skins to me from my vantage point stuck on the roadside looking across.

Comment by: Russ on 16th February 2024 at 20:10
'I think it's fair to say that some teachers considered themselves a law unto themselves once upon a time. There were the school rules and then there were 'their' rules, and that was a bit clear with one man I had who basically ruled his PE classes I was in by decree, his word was the law.'



This is so true.

I was shy and had a PE teacher in my comprehensive who dictated like this. He was a bare chests in PE kind of guy and projected his liking for it onto everyone.

It was - When I say shirts off sonny, it's shirts off, or I will pull it off.

That was if we were in the PE gym already and in kit.

If we were in the changing area it was sometimes - bare chests bare feet to the gym pronto.

But then school PE kit wasn't a bare chest at all, neither was it meant to be bare feet either. But this guy just made his own rules up and nothing ever got said.

And were we following his own example, like hell were we, he was never seen out of white trainers and a selection of branded, mainly Adidas tops in the gym at school.

I always thought the bloke was a fool, thicker than almost all his class of 1978, the same year as Grange Hill started and I was 12 and easily intimidated at that age by such men.

Comment by: ALAN 1970 on 17th February 2024 at 03:44


Hi Alan - a good job we have the new IP system as by old reckoning you would have been me posting under yet another alias!. That was you at my usual time. Like you, all through infant and primary up to big school we had all women teachers - the younger you were you tended to get the mild, "librarian" type of teacher, who wouldn't say boo to a goose, - then in primary they were a bit tougher - the headmistress was very strict - a sort of "I was Himmler's Gym Mistress" type, probably wearing Harris Tweed knickers, but looking back, probably a good bridge between the very soft infant years,where discipline was barely noticeable, and the horror of Colditz Mk 2. that came after this lady. Miss Beaumont her name was. You couldn't imagine a Mr Beaumont.

I entirely accept without reservation what Nathan said about over 16's not being compelled to take part - it is unfortunate that my earlier post mentions him in a less favourable light, though I do, and did, acknowledge he might be acting on a head of departments orders. Whoever's decision it is, it still seems unnecessary to me, as they will all shower anyway. If I were a member of staff, I would challenge the reasoning behind it. Rules were made to be broken - or at least, questioned.

We never had girls at all in senior school. At the time I was indifferent, though looking back on it from this distance, I still do not understand why we still have them. Is single sex education a good thing or not?. I don't know. Depends on the teachers I suppose. We have both an all girls and an all boys school in my area, though the least said about the latter, the better (Royal Liberty). In this day and age it seems a strange anachronism, and I don't think it is even for religious purposes as neither school is denominational. I do understand Muslim schools have their own very strict rules about both sexes being taught separately.

With my skinniness and later my acne, the "difficult" years of being seen minus clothes lasted all the years I had to do it, and to this day, like that blog post that David posted on Thursday, I prefer to remain clothed, even though both my problems are long gone. . It was bad enough having the boys critiques, let alone giggly schoolgirls.

I agree with you I think that nothing really changed in schools till the late 80s, rather than the 70s, Caning was officially banned in 1987, I think, and those teachers who were "into it" exercised their rather tawdry and sometimes, dubious tastes with alacrity until it ended. It was used throughout my school years often for the most paltry reasons. A blot in your "best" exercise" book? a ruler across your knuckles, chewing in class? - the slipper. Upsetting one of the more temperamental teachers - for whatever reason? - , caning. A lot of people thought at the time that it would be the end of civilisation as we know it, perhaps it was for some of the teachers. I think, to compensate some of them became more verbally aggressive, as this was the only trick left to them in their armour, hence the insistence to this day of uniforms and "suitable" length of hair, not too long and not too short, not wearing jewellery or makeup - and that's just the boys.

I also agree with you that the older pupils that Bill saw were probably exercising without shirts at their own volition - it has been a warm week here in the Southern part of Britain this week, though it still wouldn't tempt me - but Craig probably has some potential members of his group. God luck to them - they are doing it out of choice, not compulsion.

Comment by: Russ on 16th February 2024 at 20:10


"I think it's fair to say that some teachers considered themselves a law unto themselves once upon a time. There were the school rules and then there were 'their' rules, and that was a bit clear with one man I had who basically ruled his PE classes I was in by decree, his word was the law."

I think one word sums up the teaching profession (with some notable exceptions) . It is a five letter word, also loved by politicians, civil servants and petty officials, and that word is "Power". The love of bossing people about, telling them what to do and how to do it.

This thing about kit for example, how many posts have we read on here about the school "rules" dictating football shirts, rugby shirts, socks, singlets and/or tee shirts being provided in their prospectus, and the poor kid has ended up just wearing the shorts. The parents have wasted their money, which they might have ill-afforded to lose - and for what?.

I do think the showering thing is more important especially as, getting older you do sweat more and that is a hygiene matter, so any sweat picked up by a tee short will be washed off in the showers afterwards.

It would be nice to think the days of ordering people about are over - but I doubt it. Even in recent times Nathan told us that he still decides to have "shirtless lessons" in his gym. To be entirely fair to him, this might be an edict from one of his superiors, but if I were a head teacher my question would be this: If it is OK to wear a shirt on Monday, why not on Tuesday as well?.

If it is anything like our old school the head was an elderly and I am sure a fair and well-meaning man, and in his day had no doubt been a good teacher (I believe Maths was his speciality), but by the time we were saddled with him, he was a poor old chap in declining health and he delegated everything to his deputy, a rather unpleasant sour little man who suffered from small man syndrome, and his cronies could do as they pleased. He loved power, even when he had delegated power, to a trusted lieutenant - you could see it as he swaggered round the building. He loved to describe himself as a "disciplinarian" . We can only hope that this sort of teacher is now dead or retired, but it can't be guaranteed that their influence hasn't lived on. I am sure, had the headmaster been in better health the regime would have been different - still firm, but without the extra difficulties his deputy allowed to be caused.

1970, the year I was born, and yet for about 7 years from 1975 when I started school until 1982 when I ended primary, almost all my school hall (they didn't really have a gym as such) PE lessons were done shirtless from a very young age when children are rarely self conscious about what they are doing. Then when I went to secondary school from 1982 onwards I actually did less shirtless PE than I did at the lower schools, quite a lot still but not all the while, and it was at that secondary school where the way I looked started to matter, even more so when I was having to get my shirt off in school, not just among boys but sometimes in the presence of girls. Well I had to share the PE at both the lower schools with girls quite a lot of the time and that wasn't much of a big deal but suddenly it becomes something you think a lot about at 13. I was not enthusiastic about being seen by girls at that age with my shirt off, and swimming was mentioned with Ben, but we stopped swimming at school when I was I think 11 or 12. I did not do any at secondary school at all, it was mostly a primary school thing for some reason. I was always surprised that PE in secondary school never involved going swimming at some point.

I was pleased that you finally accepted the explanation of that PE teacher about what pupils over 16 are expected to do in school. I never doubted his answer for a moment. Bill's comment caught my eye and I think what he saw would have caught my eye too, but there's clearly more to that and it's never going to be a regular PE class out like that but a bunch of lads who sound like they might be in training for something who are still at school but a bit older and I saw possibly 16+ and I'm sure each and every one of them was doing what they wanted to and nothing else to it. Going shirtless can be infectious. One does it, then a couple and before you know it a lot of others suddenly find the confidence to do it as well because the others went first. Perhaps there are a lot of secret shirtless runners within all of us, as Craig's comments appear to suggest amongst his adult volunteers. I would definitely take up such a challenge.

I was so used to never wearing tops from such an early age, in school and around the house and outside playing. But that never stopped me having a nervous period about it when I reached my teens, especially among girls at the time for possibly a couple of years from 13 to 15. Boys rarely make direct comments about other boys bodies but girls do. They only got a handful of chances at secondary school but that was more than enough.

I remember watching Grange Hill almost from the start. Someone here asked if they did the shirts and skins lessons in that and someone found one, but I bet they won't find a boys girls PE lesson in that, I never remember that on there.

Even though I was born in 1970, a year that was identified on here as transitional in thinking, I still think many of those teachers who took me were quite old school even well into the 80s actually. There must have been plenty of PE teachers taking lessons in the late 80s who were doing so in the late 60s in school, a lot in the same school and with similar values.

What is notable about my early schooling is that it was almost exclusively done by women, there were no men around at school until I was 8, yet my PE was shirtless, and there were not many men around in my primary, I can only think of three, and most PE was done there under a woman too and once again no shirts for the boys, only our shorts got worn. So this shirtless PE thing is definitely not just a male teacher in secondary school thing at all.

(not Russell Spark, another Russell - last posted 8 Feb 24)


That bit about the year 1970 mentioned by Christopher here seems relevant to me as a boy who was on the actual cusp of that one. I'm 63 today, a young 63 I might add. As the start of the seventies began I was in my first year at middle primary when 1970 began and most of my main schooling was therefore during much of that decade.

Without wishing to repeat myself, just look back to what I said a few days ago but I suppose I have mixed feelings nowadays in some respects. Not surprising as school straddled that 1970 year if the theory has any merit, and it's definitely a good one that makes sense.

I think it's fair to say that some teachers considered themselves a law unto themselves once upon a time. There were the school rules and then there were 'their' rules, and that was a bit clear with one man I had who basically ruled his PE classes I was in by decree, his word was the law.

I think what Bill has seen isn't comparable with others who have spoken of their pasts in normal school PE lessons, such as cross countries stripped down. I think in the case mentioned it seems like a sports focused school in some way where obviously older ones are making decisions for themselves rather than being imposed which accounts for what you saw and the answer the nearby resident gave you, and it was such a very warm February day yesterday I don't blame them. It sounds like a place with a very relaxed and healthy attitude, but not as I say worth comparing to your average unfit 14 year old being sent out to run a few miles in the cold in 1975 perhaps.

I preferred doing PE at my own pace and not the times it started to get seriously competitive in the later years. It was also much better when we got stuck into similar ability groups and worked and played together like that against each other sometimes.

That was a great time Russell Spark. You must have been doing a lot of training beforehand for that. We actually lost the Marathon World record holder this week aged just 24 in a crash, who might have broken the two hour mark at Paris 2024 this summer. It's been a bad week for shocking passings hasn't it.

But it's been a good week for some really good comments on here.

"But even if you are weedy or a fatty I don't think that should simply mean an exemption to shirtless PE which should then only be allowed for the average looking ones. Imagine a PE teacher taking a shirtless class and allowing a fat boy to cover up, what message would that send to him, that he looks too awful to be seen"

With respect to you, Stuart (and I am in full agreement with you about weighing kids at school just to make them feel even more awful - we will have even more of that nannying, with Miss Phillipson and her Teeth-Brushing Lessons!), I don't see WHY any kid needs to do bare-chested PE.


We had it on authority of Paula yesterday that it is not a requirement in Florida - the Sunshine State, one of the hotter parts of the US, so why should it be so here, especially in the North, Scotland and Wales which can get fairly chilly?.

Time we all got into the 21st century. I repeat again any kid happy to do it, fine, let them do it, if they want to, but not at the expense of the rest of their class, as Graeme told us about yesterday.

Ian,
You must have attended the same school as I did! I remember the dreaded ‘belt ‘ only too well but I would never have described it as ‘a highly entertaining spectator sport’. I remember the silence in the class as some poor classmate was on the receiving end- often for only a minor misdemeanour!

Russell
I remember watching the London Marathon on TV and certainly noticing shirtless runners, until recent years.
I myself ran to keep fit until recent years. Early morning, so as I could go shirtless. I can't remember when I first had the courage to risk it, but I do remember the first time shirtless in a hard frost. The wonderful sensation of crisp air against my skin. Happy memories! Astonished looks from passers by - usually in cars.
I never thought seriously about entering a race, but I did check and most made provision for shirtless men.
My view on Christopher's point re the dividing line for attitudes being 1970, which in essence I agree with.
I was at a boys' secondary grammar school in Scotland in the 60's. The Scottish educational system in those days was excellent, but authoritarian and disciplined. We were even proud of our tradition of corporal punishment - teachers, parents and even pupils approved of the approach (although we did not like being on the receiving end, but it was highly entertaining spectator sport). I remember a teacher talking about how the tawse was "improved" in the late forties, by being made heavier and harder - the dreaded Lochgelly.
As a lad you hoped for the milder teachers, but you just had to get through with the strict ones. I had strict English and Technical teachers, very strict in French, and my PE teacher was the severest. But I got through and even found I enjoyed some things in PE - running, swimming, hockey, ropes and anything requiring agility. Even circuits. Rugby and the heavier stuff, no thanks. Being picked for a team, no.
I'm very much with Mr Chips' and Barney's recent comments.
Then of course, the 60's came with attitudes becoming more liberal, less rigid and authoritarian.

Comment by: Christopher on 15th February 2024 at 23:18


I think you are right, Christopher, and I would go further - I think there have been, and will continue to be, changes with the post 2000 students. When you see six foot plus lads with beards, it would be very hard for even the most dictatorial teacher to try to intimidate them in the way our teachers did us, without making themselves look very foolish.

Comment by: Bill on 15th February 2024 at 19:08

It was more like mid April today than mid February like when I ran the London Marathon in that month. I'm certain all the ones you saw did so freely. I don't think you are allowed to run the London Marathon completely shirtless even if you place your number stuck onto your abdomen and back, even if the race is run on a hot one. If a runner was to remove his vest I think he might even be disqualified actually. I ran the race back in April 1996 (2:58:16) and it was actually quite a warm one that year. I only did it once. I achieved my sub three hour first time, couldn't quite believe it.