Burnley Grammar School

Neil on 5th November 2023 at 15:19

On communal showers, it was never up for discussion with a PE teacher who had a size twelve plimsoll at the ready.

In those days you 'did as you were told' and it certainly did me no harm. I loved sport and would change nothing about my time at school in the 1960s.

I agree with Neil - an interesting question. Of course, up until the time that the cane and other physical punishments were made illegal, the teacher had the ultimate threat, which many no doubt would have used.

I do wonder if prospective PE teachers ever learn about gymnophobia?. I have no doubt they are told how to shout, berate and so on, and act like Alec Ferguson on steroids, but do they teach them anything about psychology?:

https://www.dovemed.com/diseases-conditions/gymnophobia/

Just Stop Showers is just a bit of a joke really isn't it, perhaps one for Mr Dando of old and Biff sounds like a school days nickname thing to me. They have stopped them in half of schools anyway haven't they, even though long ago on here there was some comment that they have to lawfully be provided for anyone over eleven in school who does physical education, but providing or having to maintain compared to using are not quite the same thing are they, whether voluntarily or even having to do so.

I'm quite interested at this from a legalistic point of view. I'm not a lawyer but I really rather doubt that any of the schools that any of us went to in the past had any legal authority to demand that anybody who did not wish to shower at school, communally and naked among others, must do so. A firm refusal to do so and what could they have done, quote some education law at you that meant that a teacher had full legal authority to compel anybody to do this, I doubt it.

It reminds me of the lockdown and how so many people just complied willingly and went along with 'how things were' despite many of them not wishing to. This happened in schools with communal showering and people like the Alan's of this world probably only ever had to say no. I'm just the same here, I was mandated to use showers in school and we all just went along with it unquestioningly at the time. I wasn't as concerned as some people are but certainly the legalistic side of school shower use and mandate is I think rather an interesting one.

Comment by: Craig on 3rd November 2023 at 23:19


Couldn't help but notice on the Feel Alive Outside website that at the end of the 'bare skin' video even that seemingly confident and very decent looking lad expressed a certain amount of self consciousness about being shirtless running in public.

"Biff" (!?)

You completely miss the point - perhaps deliberately?. I am all for cleanliness, and I repeat - yet again (for your benefit) that if people are happy doing anything (within reason) then they should be allowed to do it, by the same token if they are uncomfortable and there is a compromise then use it. Not every adult is comfortable with group showers, and elect to wear trunks or shorts under the shower. Who are we to say no. Freedom - as Orwell pointed out - is "the freedom to say two and two makes four". This is supposed to be a free country, not North Korea.

Ever thought about starting your own protest group called Just Stop Showers Alan?

Craig, thanks for the interesting post. Though I don't live anywhere near I hope this is a success. Have you been out lately? I didn't mind doing cross country without a vest and was out in all weathers. Did you experience bare chested exercise at school?

It's not a dismissive attitude Alan, it's a practical common sense attitude.

Comment by: Geoff on 4th November 2023 at 13:39


Yes I am aware of that Geoff, however, I was just trying to show in a gentle way how Graham was obviously completely insensitive to his pupils concerns - the old "teacher knows best - do as I say" attitude which has always riled me. His return question to those long ago pupils was ridiculous, if I might be allowed to say that, because at home they wouldn't have been sharing their space with 30 other lads. He was comparing apples with oranges. The fact remains that - as has been proved on this site many times - some men did feel very uncomfortable being forced into that situation when they were at school. The dismissive attitude Graham demonstrates, probably put more lads OFF sport than encouraged them. I know years ago I had a music teacher (this was post school) whose attitude so p*ssed me off, I might have given up altogether had I not left him and paddled my own canoe. As it was I did far better without him, than I did with him.

Unisex places were not the point though were they Alan, you've just changed the goalposts there. I know he said regardless of location but I think you know full well he almost certainly meant same gender areas and there was no need to bring girls or women into it.

Comment by: Craig on 3rd November 2023 at 23:19

This whole back to nature thing of swimming in lakes and rivers, barefoot running and running shirtless which seems to be gaining popularity is right amusing at a time when we have never had so many good swimming leisure facilities and unlimited choice in expensive air cushioned trainers and designer label sports tops to do all these things in but perhaps it's because of these that there are increasingly people who want to go back to basics. At least it's free to do. Good luck to anyone who takes it up.

Comment by: Nigel on 3rd November 2023 at 18:06

Quite often men leave their swimming trunks on when they shower after their swim, Nigel. Again, in unisex modern leisure centres, they would have to, wouldn't they?

Almost everyone showed reluctance heading into the showers. Teachers always had a hard job making sure we all did though. There were no really keen boys. When I think back to school in the early 1980s I can't believe we had to do it so much at the time. If many schools showers had been inspected I think they would have found them to be quite unhygienic places where you picked up bugs and infection. I used to wonder how many other peoples feet had been standing where I was. I had two foot infections from a school changing room. I might have actually stayed cleaner if I'd kept out the school showers rather than been told I must step in our school's one twice weekly to please the teachers. I never saw anyone try to wear shorts by the way. If someone had tried to I think they'd have got them ripped off pretty quick fast knowing some of the chaps I knew.

I'd like to share this video and website with you of one of our bareskin runners.

https://feelaliveoutside.com/bare-skin-running/

Who showers with clothing of any sort on, regardless of location, solo or not. Think of it as another lesson in life, although it shouldn't need to be taught should it. I think Graham was right there. Pandering to such requests like Graham mentioned is not the answer to extreme modesty issues. I now know that because I was one of those boys who had to be told off in a school changing room for being reticent about taking all my clothes off and showering with my class. I later realised my PE teacher was right and I was wrong. It was awkward at the time but far better for me in the long run. I think I may have ended up less confident if I'd been let off things in PE when young than being made to face up to them a bit.

Comment by: Graham Butterfield on 3rd November 2023 at 13:52

"I encountered a couple of times requests about the possibility of wearing a garment such as shorts in the shower when I was teaching, this will be some 25 years ago now ...My response to these were quite simple by answering with another question - Would you wear shorts in the shower at home? When the answer came back as no then I would simply state, there's your answer then, and there would be no further discussion and we'd get on with things."

Graham , with the greatest respect, would it be otiose to point out that in the home the lad was, in all probability, showering alone, and in privacy. At school it was a group situation. Do you REALLY not see the difference between a private scenario and a public one, and the difficulties or anxieties that such a situation might cause - even for some adults, let alone boys?. That would have been my answer to you in 1998, as it is in 2023.

I encountered a couple of times requests about the possibility of wearing a garment such as shorts in the shower when I was teaching, this will be some 25 years ago now I should think in the instances I am actually thinking of here. My response to these were quite simple by answering with another question - Would you wear shorts in the shower at home? When the answer came back as no then I would simply state, there's your answer then, and there would be no further discussion and we'd get on with things.

Comment by: David W on 2nd November 2023 at 13:08
"This shorts in the shower thing has never made much sense to me. The shorts get wet, so have to come off at some point anyway, so what's the point in that. "

I agree it might be uncomfortable, David, but I think it just reflects that men are more conscious of wanting privacy these days. Most modern leisure centres these days, for example, are unisex (I suppose for reasons of economy rather than modesty), and if you shower with shorts on, you will have your own private locker space to remove them, dry off and get dressed again. I don't think this is a bad idea at all, and you have to remember we are long past the days when you were forced to join the military where you just did what you were told without question. It just reinforces my point that everyone is different and what's easy for one will be difficult for another, and I think school students deserve the same consideration that adults expect now.

This shorts in the shower thing has never made much sense to me. The shorts get wet, so have to come off at some point anyway, so what's the point in that.

Your obstacle course training in PE Nathan brought images of going to Crufts one year and seeing the dogs running their timed course around, up and over a layout. It sounds different to anything I did.

I just wonder if people like you Nathan who work in schools that still go with the required showering after PE would prefer it if this was no longer a part of your job at all. Do you allow them to wear shorts in the shower or is it traditional methods?

Good call Nathan, that sounds like a sensible deal.

An interesting snippet there of your day today. Thanks for sharing that.

Comment by: Jeff Knight on 1st November 2023 at 16:35

I take your point Jeff. I used to play truant on Wednesday afternoon during my third year, because we had games/PE all afternoon - no other lessons at all. Amazing how many ¨dental appointments¨ I had that year!. The next year it was woodwork all afternoon, which was better

Hugh's weekend comment.

I will happily provide further details of my own if you place a link to your practice website (NHS or private?) on this forum making reference to your good self.

I'm not naive but it would not have even crossed my mind that anybody would wish to contact my school knowing my ID simply because they disagree with me over something. I think you own comments were extremely unwise and feel sure you probably know that by now.


I've spent my day outside laying out cones and markers to develop techniques and improve developments for all round competitive sports. In short cutting it to plain English, obstacle course training. This is so we can check on performances compared to previous ones and see any improvements, or not. It's always popular. The aim is that everyone can tackle complex and demanding physical activities. This kind of day is one of the most physically challenging PE lessons. So to the person who asked a couple of weeks ago how many showers I supervise each day, today was three but it's normally just a couple or even one.

Timothy on 29th Oct - 'Having read back the last 20 pages on here this evening I see a lot about shirtless PE and also shower fear.'


That's because it was all so common if you went to school in the days most of us over 35 did. Concerns about these things seemed commonplace, as did generalised PE phobia if the amount of truancy I remember was anything to go by.

Just to say I went to the gym as usual this morning and walked along the boundary of the school I attended as a boy. Normally lads are out doing sport and I often stop to watch but this morning, I couldn't because it's half term.

I don't think anyone can argue with the last comment that Alan has said here can they.

Everyone's different, remember that.

I'd genuinely like to thank Steve and Ian for their support in their posts. I can assure you this "dangerous individual" is nothing of the sort. I have genuine reasons for feeling the way I do. I can also assure anyone reading that as I am not omniscient (nor mentally ill), I would not wish to disrupt Hugh or anybody else's career, as making false allegations would be a criminal offence, and it would be very hard to do so to somebody whose identity and location is unknown to me. How many "Hugh's" practice medicine. How many Alan's are small businessmen?. I have been quite open about my location but I have again posted my email address so if Hugh or Original Andy or anybody else wants to contact me privately, please do so. I can assure these paranoid gentlemen that I have no means or desire to mine their data - again totally illegal, a totally outrageous suggestion, and it would be very hard for me to run my business - established 14 years now, to operate from prison. Honestly this nonsense should stop. It is as boring for ordinary readers as it is for me.

Comment by: Hugh on 30th October 2023 at 16:44
I regard Alan as a dangerous and manipulative character, just look back over the pages and years to see example after example.




No self respecting general practitioner in the medical profession would ever make the comment above that you have left on this forum tonight about an individual that they have never even met.

You're quite right to ask that question Mick.

Real GP's haven't got the time or inclination to faff around with such trivia on forums like this, they're too busy. Real GP's don't sound off like that either, especially older maturer ones. My sister-in-law is in GP practice. I also suspect that the person you allege to fear causing you professional distress from these boards would have far better things to do with his own time than waste it bothering a GP he doesn't even know, and about what exactly?

Just admit you've been caught out. As Mick said, your answer to Nathan gave the game away didn't it and deflecting back on somebody who has already provided a full name and details of their workplace in a school (which I've had a thorough look at) with demands for more out of him, while refusing to give anything up about your own background that you make claims about on here isn't cutting it with me. Do you really think readers are that gullible.

Pete on 29th October 2023 at 22:59

I think you missed the point I was making. That sort of disclosure is not appropriate however someone asking you to do it must surely set an example by doing it themselves? I didn't expect Nathan to disclose any more than he already has.

Mick on 30th October 2023 at 15:15
My comment is a very serious concern, the General Medical Council investigate anything and everything these days and you are guilty until proven innocent.

I regard Alan as a dangerous and manipulative character, just look back over the pages and years to see example after example.