Burnley Grammar School

Pete C question on 6th Sept - no is the answer, it definitely wasn't him but I can't remember the name now.

As I've said before I don't remember enforced shirtless PE being common in mid/late 80s. I think it was just swimming (the few times we did it) and occasional games of shirts and skins.

I don't think I minded going shirtless per se - teenage boys aren't really expected to be shy about that at pools or beaches or whatever. It was more that I didn't like having my belly button (an outer, still) commented on. Though from this remove I don't know why I let it bother me!

I don't remember anything like these high temperatures in September when I was at school and it was in September that we began immediately going out on cross country running for the first time since the spring. I'd like to think none of my PE teachers would have taken us out for the regular 3 to 4 miles in these unusually hot conditions despite the mantra we do things in all weathers, which normally meant poor weather. We'd have been dropping like flies with heat exhaustion and there was never water on hand either.

Nice post Zac.

I'm sticking this comment on at 5.34pm but I'm convinced my comment showed up an hour earlier the other day, so on GMT, not BST. Using this to find out if I've imagined it since the return of the site a few days ago.

You thought shirtless PE was a privilege. That's an interesting angle I must say!

I had an interesting trajectory through my middle school and into the senior school I went to. I had 4 years in middle school, a year longer than some people used to do, followed by another 4 years in seniors. I preferred the PE we did in middle school because it was generally speaking far more enjoyable and relaxed, although we were certainly put through our paces there is no doubt about that.

I always liked going outside to do things, am an outside person generally. At middle school I developed a liking and strength at long jumping. A bit of a growth spurt up to the age of 12 helped.

My middle school was almost a brand new building when I began there in 1982 with modern looking facilities by the standard of that year and for a school with a pupil count of about 250 and no more than 300 at most had a magnificent and large playing field that any secondary school would be fine with. There was this footbath kind of thing in there which we never used but was talked about sometimes. But we did shower frequently at the school when considered necessary, such facilities were built into the new building so although the average middle school might not have done so they probably felt that if we had the facilities there we might as well use them, except this strange little footbath thing I still remember. We were able to hang our sports bags, commonly known as plimsoll bags and the like on our own named hook in the cloakroom and just leave it there hanging all term to save us bringing it in each time or forgetting. This was very useful. Mine had trainers, shorts, a t-shirt, a bar of soap, sponge and very tiny towel not much bigger than a big flannel in it. I can remember being asked if I needed to bring it home for the contents to be washed. It only came home every half a term after at least a dozen if not many more PE lessons.

The first three years in middle we did PE in our trainers/or barefooted, shorts and t-shirts. But the fourth years, as we called them in our school, or the big boys as they seemed at that young age, did PE in the gym bare chests throughout the final middle school year and in my case these lessons took place under what I thought at the time was the toughest, strictest, sports obsessed male teacher in the school. Actually he was a pussycat in reality but at that age he didn't seem it. I've met him many times hence as an adult. The fourth years at middle could would also take our tops off outside if the weather was nice. The three lower years did not do this. It felt like a kind of privilege bestowed on the older boys to be able and allowed to do this for physical education, although we were actually told to. But I thoroughly enjoyed my time there.

Arrival at secondary school came with a deeper seriousness of trying to find out what we were good at in those early months. I mentioned long jump from the middle school but in the end I rarely got a chance to do it again which was a shame. In my first secondary year I remember a strong emphasis on measuring a lot of things, either with timings, tape measure or counting in general. I did get a couple of long jump opportunities but that was it. I cannot even remember what the distances were now but they were long by school standard.

Kit was strictly imposed. The gym was white shorts, white vest with a horizontal stripe and most times done in our bare feet only, although light soled trainers were part of the kit.

Unlike my final year at middle school i did not do a single PE lesson without tops in my first two years at secondary, even in the gym where we always wore vests and only vests, no t-shirts allowed. Then when we got to fourth form, which was only year three at secondary we began doing the gym in bare chests and found out that this was how the top two years at secondary did gym PE, which followed a very similar pattern to my middle school last year. Personally speaking I would have preferred to have just carried on the same way from my final middle school year and all through secondary in the same way. at the start of secondary fourth that brought out the 'why are we doing this' types in class who must have been a bit sensitive.

Secondary showering was compulsory and taken every single time irrespective of the state you ended up in after PE. I was always keen to just get on with such things with minimum fuss.

I ended up quite tall, a six footer by 15, and one of the most memorable comments a PE teacher ever made to me, some might say it was an insult, was to be told by a PE teacher I looked like a spider with half his legs missing as I lay spreadeagled on the gym floor one lesson with my long limbs outstretched. They certainly knew how to come out with them at times.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof - something that is rarely provided re: Allen Williams.

Why would anyone waste their time writing such obvious fictional twaddle.

Good to call it out Rich. Something about the Williams comment made me think he might have been a member of the naturist community or something like that. Wasn't someone else caught out on here with an email address which seemed to accidentally expose them for being part of what is described as the clothed female nude male community, abbreviated widely as cfnm.

If you want to know what a complete and utter fabrication looks like then here is the fully reprinted example left here by Mr Allen Williams shortly before last Christmas, left complete with his email at the time. So I emailed him about this comment only to be told he couldn't even remember placing it on here, could not remember what he actually said literally a few days beforehand and even though I gave the link to his comment made out he could not find it! I'd even cut and pasted the whole thing directly back to his email address too. There was no denial he made it. I should hope he was suitably embarrassed passing it off as plausible.





Comment by: Allen Williams on 21st December 2022 at 04:19
From 1960 to 1963 I was at a (mixed) state-maintained primary school in north-west Surrey. PE was done in the school hall. off which the classrooms led. The process was that the class would strip down to underpants/knickers in the classroom, then go to the hall for the lesson, then trot back and get dressed again. Some children came from very poor families, and, while the girls got underwear, boys did not, two boys in my class falling into this category. They had the choice of sitting out the lesson, or doing it in the nude, and they both chose the latter. So did boys whose underwear would not stay up during exercise without the support of the waistband of their shorts (including me). When I did get replacement pants, they were of the “string” variety, which concealed nothing, and were restrictive, so I stuck to not wearing anything. Some of the girls said they had the same problem, so went naked as well. I suspect it was more that they were more embarrassed to display their old-fashioned baggy knickers than what was underneath them. We also had swimming (at another school's pool). Neither of the two boys without pants had swimsuits either, and both wanted to swim, so they were permitted to do so in the nude. Boys who had not brought swimming costumes for any reason were given the same choice, and, then, of course, some of the girls claimed the same privilege. Effectively, either a boy or a girl had the same option to sit out a PE or swimming lesson or do it in the nude if they wanted to. At any lesson, about 20% to 30% of the participants were naked.

At my (boys) private secondary school in Croydon, from 1963 to 1970, the official PE kit was white cotton T-shirt, brief, but loose-fitting elasticated white cotton shorts, white cotton socks and white gym shoes, and absolutely nothing else. However, turning up wearing nothing but the shorts was acceptable. No kit meant you got punished. There came one occasion on which one boy did this, but he had borrowed the shorts, and the elastic was gone. Once he took away his hand holding them up, they fell down, so he took them off and did the rest of the lesson in the gym naked, without sustained objection from the teacher once the circumstances had been explained. Having established the precedent, boys who had forgotten their kit asked permission to do the lesson in the nude rather than get punished, and this was usually granted. Nobody objected or was offended by this. We all saw, and were seen by, each other naked most days anyway (in showers and changing rooms); we were in and out of changing rooms and showers six or seven times per week, so this sort of social nudity was entirely normal in any event. It was part of the curriculum almost. As far as swimming (in the school's own pool) was concerned, the rule was simple: “boys may swim in the nude, but if a costume is worn, it must be of the approved school pattern”. That is, the uniform trunks, of the right style, colour, size, and intact (not damaged or deficient in any way). It did not matter if it was your fault or not, if you did not comply with this when directed to go swimming, you had to swim in the nude. Swimming was compulsory, wearing a costume wasn't. Again, nobody objected or was offended. Embarrassed initially, yes. Anxious beforehand, yes. As the result of the rule, almost everybody did swim in the nude sometimes, often because the school arranged swimming at the last minute when some other thing was unexpectedly cancelled. They could always do this, because a boy could always go swimming: he could do it naked and did not need any kit. I got caught out like this when I was 12 and discovered that I thought I had hated swimming, but in fact it was wearing the costume that I hated: swimming in the nude felt wonderful! Everybody actually agreed with me. I know, I made a point of asking everybody subsequently whom I knew had done so, whether they preferred going naked or wearing trunks, Not one person expressed a preference for clothing, although they continued to use it, solely because a large majority did so. I continued to do so frequently, and, a year later, when I grew out of my costume, I decided this was a silly reason, and did not replace it.

As to how frequent the practice of nude swimming for boys was in other schools, there are two points: one, when we had our first swimming lesson at the school, half the boys turned up with trunks, the other half walked into the pool area naked. The nudists had all gone to private preparatory schools, at every one of which boys were obliged to swim in the nude. The other half had gone to state-maintained primary schools where either no swimming was done, or where the wearing of a suit was compulsory, or expected. Each half had simply done what they thought was normal. I conclude that at private “prep” schools, at least in the north-west Surrey area, boys always swam in the nude, at least to the 1960s. The second point is that, when visiting other private schools in London, Surrey, and Sussex, as part of our fencing team for away matches, I asked them about the policy there on swimming. Nowhere was it banned, and at some it was either compulsory or de rigueur. We were once shown to the side of a small training pool at Dulwich College and were told there were no showers, but we could use the pool to freshen up afterwards. On being told we obviously had no swimming costumes, the senior boy guiding us said “We never wear them, and I don't see why you should have to, either.”, and left us to it. We all used the pool in the nude. It was bloody cold, though. I conclude that, well into the 1970s, most boys-only private schools in the region either allowed or generally adopted nude swimming, too.

I don't think boys have evolved into different creatures in the past 50 years. I learned at school that social nudity is actually not an imposition, it is genuine, and entirely non-sexual fun, giving a feeling of freedom, confidence, and empowerment. That these days it is drummed into them that it is a terrible perversion, and they should be ashamed of revealing their naked bodies to anyone, is a monstrous disservice to them, and to the truth.

While I'm at it, don't call this a reversion to Victorian standards. They were certainly guilty of dual standards for boys and girls, but they never objected to boys being naked together, or, indeed, in public places where male nudity was known to occur. Ladies' modesty could be protected quite sufficiently by their not frequenting such places. No: the “New Prudery” is far, far, worse than that, and it ought to be stamped out vigorously.

I've just seen the answer you gave to Greg here Jeffrey and it spiked me onto the keyboard.

I left school in the early 70s. I have actually sat in my living room within the past five years and had a grandchild of mine actually accuse me of exaggerating when I told her how boys at my school used to have to strip naked and shower with each other without freedom of choice. There are actually youngsters out there right now who think even that is something of a myth if they go to schools that no longer do such things and think because they have not ever been asked to do them or seen it being done anywhere then it simply didn't happen.

Greg.

I would not argue with your findings on the pictures you wrote about. Fake imagery is the curse of our modern age isn't it. I agree with the sources you mention and quite a number of the pictures lacking authenticity, some more so than others.

I think over the past quarter century and certainly since the 20th became the 21st, the internet has enabled many things, some wholesome, others not so, but those quiet voices that did not have an easy outlet to tell their story suddenly discovered the possibility to finally address their earlier lives and gain some traction with an audience. The historical comments here can be added to that, men and a few women in some cases actually unburdening themselves of their past, at school in PE lessons in the case of this little corner of the internet.

Regular everyday people were mostly quiet, or seemed to be mostly quiet only because their options were strictly limited to perhaps chatting among friends and neighbours or family and that's where it stayed. There was no easy national or world wide audience unless you were able to get published the old fashioned way and stuck in a book store or create something the press might pick up on and run with.

Now the problem is providing proof, and in almost all the genuine cases there is none aside from word of mouth because no photography was present, quite rightly, such as in my case, and as you've said, doubts arise in this day and age even with photography.

When it comes to details and writing up these accounts of the past as we lived it, well those who enjoy writing often get drawn to places such as these and people with those kind of strengths and interests tend to be those who are good at the detail and have the memory to back it up. Has anybody here ever kept a journal for example.

I know there are disbelievers out there, what you are saying here comes with the territory and the points you make have been widely made elsewhere before and I don't feel offended you take this view, you are free to think critically and that is healthy.

In my own case I can hand on heart tell you with my hand on the bible as God is my witness say to you and anyone else that what I have written about from April 1952 is accurate and wholly truthful, the events and my thoughts and feelings about them and I can really say no more than that.

I sign off with a reminder of the phrase, the past is a foreign country.

I concur with Jim. I've been having access and functionality issues with this site all evening and wrote a post which I lost with a failure to submit. Googling up is taking ages to appear on two browsers and timing out. Mentioning this just incase it goes down again.

I planned to post this some time ago, but glad the site’s reappeared.

I thought it would be useful to bring some balance to the mostly accepting response to Jeffrey’s ’short essay’ of 24th. August.

As I work in documentary I thought I’d do a little checking using relevant sources and archives that I have access to. I was intrigued, so I also looked at a few sites to see what others had said. I also checked the link posted by William, 25th. August, which connected with this comments page: https://screeve.org/articles/naked-swimming/frank-answers-about-swimming-naked-commentary-part-i-discerning-the-truth/ There are photos here too, though all supporting images had obvious photoshop adjustment. Search for someone who uses the single name, ‘Billy’ who appears quite far down this long page, having done lots of work on this subject. Some will not want to agree with his findings, but he can back it all up.

It seems there’s never been any recorded evidence by any reputable source, media or photography, or any written programme, confirming that boys ever swam naked in the presence of female swimmers, female coaches, or before mixed family spectators, in the USA. It’s known that boys routinely swam without suits in these pools, with no one ever understanding why this rule existed for males in the USA. But, it was said to be behind closed doors, with no females permitted. Girls swam separately, wearing suits, and at different times. It does seem, for whatever reason, that some people would like to publicise a 40s-70s USA society as being completely tolerant and easy going regarding everyone being able to view mixed age male nudity during these swimming events. Many would like it to be thought of as acceptable family entertainment, and that most of 40s-70s USA public thought that too. Well, where's the documentary evidence of this? There’s no record, on any format, that it ever happened…not until the internet anyway.

I believe there was a one exception, which was so unusual that the press did get onto it. I think it was the late 40s when some small boys aged, 5 to 6, swamin a beginners competition. They asked if they could compete without suits, as they'd probably not worn suits before. It was permitted with a little amusement, and there’s no mention of it happening again. The written column called them tadpoles. There are articles mentioning mothers objecting that their sons had to swim naked, and similar regarding daughters who had also wanted to do so, both these during their single sex sessions. So, I do think the press might have caught an event regarding over 120 naked boys aged up to 14 performing for a Family night!

Jeffrey, I do think that the whole of your ‘short essay’ does read like a very well choreographed story of fiction. It’s visually descriptive, with memorable detail, and ending with a fitting conclusion with you winning your age group race, while being small for your age. I apologise for seeming to doubt your essay’s circumstantial truth; rather I’m challenging your chosen personal accuracy.

In response to Kieron.
I am like you, and agree with your comment and attitude
" I was on the side of just letting it all out there like a normal boy should and not care."
and although it does not suit everyone, I do not bother hiding behind a towel , just get changed.

On the subject of the recent techy issue on here, I've had further problems getting this site to click up and timing out similar to in the days before it vanished for a bit.

Ivan when I was swimming with the primary school in 1997 our teachers actually encouraged us to wear something under our actual swim shorts, most boys were wearing quite baggy ones at the time I know that. I didn't do this but a lot of boys seemed to and what was even more ridiculous was that afterwards one or two removed the swim trunks/shorts but kept their under garment/pants on and tried to towel dry them like their actual skin before putting the school trousers back on over damp pants. Our teacher at the time actually watched this happen and thought it was okay. I also remember from those swimming lessons in primary that half the class seemed terrified of showing even a few seconds of a willy and this insane towel around the waist and taking stuff on and off was going on. I was on the side of just letting it all out there like a normal boy should and not care.

A direct question for Nathan on here. Not posted before but have read up.

One imagines you will get some new boys intake in the days ahead.

Why don't you actually ask their opinion in your own way on the no shirts situation if an when you seek to apply it, and do the same for the showers you say your school still uses.

I can tell you if my own PE teachers had done this with me I feel it would have made an enormous difference to me to just ask and acknowledge the fear and anxieties I had when I began at secondary school in September 1980 but it was quite a matter of fact introduction to all these things and not a hint of any empathy from anyone in our PE lot that such things produce what I latterly agree is an irrational fear.

The quite frankly rather nasty way my PE teacher spoke to us and told us to strip off and shower has never left me on that first week. I felt genuinely scared that day and we all felt intimidated.

I have recently returned from holiday, and I am catching up after the technical problems.
I know that the topic of pants or no pants being worn under P E shorts has been widely debated, but to take this a step further whilst on my holiday in Menorca I noticed that the latest fashion/fad for young men in the swimming pool was that they were wearing underwear i.e. boxer shorts under their swim shorts. This became apparent as they get out of the pool the waistband of their boxers being exposed with the brand name.
I wonder why is this done because in my experience swim shorts have a netting inside which provides adequate support. I would have though that wearing boxer shorts under swim shorts would be very uncomfortable and cling to their skin.
Does any one know why this has become fashionable?

Great story that one Jon, I have had a similar experience at such a show even further back in the 1970's. Was your one Paul McKenna by any chance, before he was famous on TV. The reason I ask is that you mentioned Dunstable there and I happen to know he worked in that area about that time doing local radio.

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 5th September 2023 at 20:30


I think you said Nathan, that while the performance f those young boys was acceptable, the music used during their act was not, because I thought the music was irrelevant (such as it was). Perhaps if Soho strip clubs used Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance March No 1, the acts would be less tawdry. I dare say those stage struck lads quite enjoyed exhibiting themselves, not that it makes the performance less repulsive or squalid.

I grew up and went to school and university in the United Kingdom but have resided for the past 10 years in New Zealand's south island in a town called Invercargill.

Back home a number of years ago in around about 1988 I think it was, I went with a group of friends from work to a hypnotic show in Dunstable despite having no belief in it at all. I remember being tried out but finding I was not a good candidate to be placed under suggestive hypnotic thought. I knew that already. But we had a friend with us that day who did get chosen for one of the hypnotic trances, although he thought he couldn't be put under. We were then asked what things he would least be likely to do and among the answers given was he would not be likely to open his wallet and flash the cash or buy a round of drinks, and also he would never take his clothes off and definitely would never just casually take a top right off. As I didn't believe in hypnotic suggestion I thought he will never succeed in any of these things. But somehow he not only made our friend take most of his clothing off, his trousers and shirt, he made him crawl on the floor having done it and start treating the chair he'd been sitting on as if it was an attractive woman he wanted to date. We were all in our thirties at the time. When a sound was made he snapped out of it in an instant and I have never seen anybody in my entire life look so panicked and fumble around trying to dress again so fast. I remember thinking, what just happened here, because I still couldn't believe what I'd seen could possibly be for real. I just don't believe he was the kind of person who could have passed it off faking it though and he always insisted he never realised what he had done.

I'm afraid I cannot remember what I said now in the missing comment of mine, sorry. Back to school tomorrow, rotten luck with the timing of the weather.

Mike on the 4th.
Yes I was referring to Nathan's post where he discussed that film.
I always find his comments, as a contemporary PE teacher, interesting.

Goodness me what a piece of film that was. I think many of the parents might have got caught up in the moment and then walked away with a different view. Why would any of them wish to sexualise their boys like that, it's really rather terrible isn't it. I know kids seem like they grow up quicker nowadays but all the same, did those boys act like that without any adult encouragement at that age.

My boys, I have had 3, now all well into adults, could go to school and do P.E like that and I would always have been relaxed about them being asked to do so. The ones in the film could have been fully dressed doing the same movements and I would have been equally disapproving.

re Comment by: Rob on 4th September 2023 at 19:39

I recollect that post myself, but I just cannot remember the exact occasion we had to wear PE kit in drama, so I did not put in my contribution at that time. Amazingly I found a file on an old laptop with the answer:

Danny C on 22nd December 2020 at 03:17.

and the discussion around it.

Lance - thats the one.

Thanks for posting it!

This I think. Some misguided strip show for their parents. Beyond odd in my view.

https://youtu.be/bTW1iJlSEV0?feature=shared

TimH what is this gross video you are referring to?

Ian says - <Youth drama has also a lot of instances of lads wearing very little, playing parts like “Puck” and “Ariel”. (A lot of my friends were Drama/English teachers and I've seen the production photos).

I can vaguely remember my involvement in school drama (I'm no actor!). Our drama teacher believed that just before the final rehearsals in costume, we had to get used to not wearing our uniforms – so he had us strip to PE shorts. A bit disconcerting, but the worst thing was getting black feet from the dust on the stage.>




Ian, you were talking about drama classes there and it took me back to some comments I remembered from a couple of years ago right here from someone who put a few things on here about being forced into shirtless drama lessons as well as in PE. Does anyone remember who that was and when it was put on here, I'd like to read it again.

I think we have lost Nathan's post that you're referencing Tim have we not? What a shame, there were some decent comments in just those couple of days.