Burnley Grammar School

Alan (1/8) I think you are reading too much into the p.e. lesson depicted in the Cylcling Proficiency Test film. 1964 was when I was just starting at secondary school. I really don't think it was a case that the producer "found it necessary" to show young boys without tops or under the shower. He just wanted to show boys talking at school. P.e. would have been as good as any other lesson - perhaps better than any other, to show them talking during a lesson. Also, if you suggested to the average pupil, parent or teacher at that time that there was anything gratuitous, egregious or voyeuristic about it then I think they would have laughed at you, possibly even suggesting that you should be carted off to the "loony bin."

Ian, that film is one I haven't seen in years but has many memorable and highly authentic moments doesn't it. One in the changing room that was always happening in front of PE teachers was someone pleading they'd either already showered when they hadn't or offering an excuse not to have to - did these boys just not want to wash or were they scared of communal nudity, I was never sure how genuinely widespread that fear actually was. I think the boy in that film says something like, 'mam says I'm not t'ave a shower Sir' or something similar. That was always happening on a weekly basis in my school from someone, or at least it seems like it was through the middle 1970s in my case.

Shirtless PE was embraced by me quite easily (it was mandatory in our gym, whilst at teacher discretion outside) and was fine but some of the early morning runs we used to get sent on could have done with being covered up. Even in the depths of winter we only ran out with a skimpy vest on which offered no warmth at all so we might as well have not bothered for all the use it was. No way would that be going on now, if they even run much or at all anywhere very far. There is a secondary school quite near me where many years ago you would often see groups going running together clearly doing PE but I haven't seen it for a very long time indeed now.

Guys, please don't get wound up by Alan, he has trolled this board for years with the same embitterd posts about his time at school and he will not believe that any of us could have had a positive experience or enjoyed school because he didn't.

Call him out like I have on many previous occasions and he will troll you all the more, I'm only doing this now because there is a lot of positive and healthy discussion going on and yet he's up to his old tricks of diverting the discussion to his own terrible time.

He's quite disturbed, should seek professional help but doesn't. Please, just don't respond to him and keep the healthy discussion going.

The bit I noticed most about the trampoline clip was the way the two boys suddenly stood bolt upright to attention in front of the PE teacher almost as if they were on army drill after jumping off.

I don't think two is a problem as long as you can coordinate well. I seem to remember it was the trampoline at school that was the culprit for one or two minor mishaps like getting caught in the springs.

There is such a thing a shirtless shyness / awkwardness for sure, I relate to it quite well and had that in school over thirty eight years ago now. It gave me feelings of silent inner nervousness when I knew it was going to happen. I wouldn't go as far as dysmorphia, just regular awkward shyness about being revealed like that. PE at my school was with tops but they were always having to come off and certain teachers definitely favoured the look of shirtless gym being done. In some at school in the early teens it just brings out very strong self conscious sensations even if you are just among other guys who look much the same in most cases. I wouldn't have said anything to a teacher, that would be quite embarrassing in itself wouldn't it, laying one level of awkwardness upon another. Boys don't want to admit being awkward about such things as being stripped to the waist which is meant to be one of those things that comes easily and naturally to all males of any age. But the reason I think it ends up an issue is that it happens to boys in school at the worst possible age for being self conscious and also I think that is the age when we start not liking being told what to do very much, especially if it's something we don't want or like.

There is one question I would like to ask you Nathan. Has reading some of the points raised on here come as a surprise to you and will it make you think slightly differently when you presumably return in September.

Thanks.

Alan. The only thing that worried me about the "trampolining" clip is that two lads were on the trampoline at the same time - an accident waiting to happen. This clip, and the others, actually record history. I do not want to see history forgotten or worse still, deliberately air-brushed out of existence. When young people think you are making it up, these clips and pictures are evidence. I do agree that showing lads, even pre puberty, completely naked, often for no good reason, is not right and never was.

I just thought I'd mention that the original version of "Kes" (1969) directed by the legendary Ken Loach, included a brief scene of a bunch of 14 year old lads in the shower, rear on, but head to toe. He must have thought it had historic and artistic merit - and I guess the wanted to show the bullying nature of many PE teachers. It just reminded me of showers in my early teens, everyone so embarrassed that they were all turned to the wall. Also the range of small, immature lads to muscular ones, tall gangly ones etc. I believe the scene has been deleted from the film - for good of for worse? I feel the latter.

The trampoline clip just took me back 60 years to my school days in the gym, although our classes were even more regimented. Lads on the wall-bars (were they being punished? I think not as there are several of them), lads waiting standing attentively (yes, one has arms crossed. Not allowed in out class), other lads doing various activities. The two lads jump from the trampoline and are told to "Stop" just as they are about to say something to each other. And of course, the "Showers! Run!". Very authentic.

I'll just note here that my teachers favourite exercises for punishment were press-ups, burpees, or a combined one - a press-up followed by a squat thrust finishing with the jump, then back down for another. A couple of dozen vigorously done. He also liked making us run on the spot, fast, lifting our knees high up to our chests. Hard work!

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 3rd August 2023 at 16:48


Clearly you were not around 40/50 years ago as you could never "discuss" anything with any teacher, and to be frank, nobody would have wanted to be caught alone with our PE teacher in his little "office" - safety (of a sort) in numbers and all that.

It will be interesting to see how teachers like yourself cope with boys who think they are girls, which seems to be becoming a new fad.

One final point, now young men are required to stay at school till they are 18, if they can't find a job in our run-down country, would you still insist on the same "rules" for an 18 year old as you would, say . for a 12 year old? .

I have said many times, if a pupil wishes to take part in PE lessons with no top, then that is fine, but I think it totally wrong to insist on it. Most boys of whatever age, will not talk about things that worry them - I imagine it is the same today as it was back then - you will, of course, of read how many men on this forum felt as I did, but it couldn't be mentioned because it is was just not done - a bit like how grassing others up was never done - it is part of school etiquette - surely you remember that from the days when you were a pupil and taking the orders rather than dishing them out?

You do not need to justify yourself going about your day job in a lawful manner Nathan Hind.

Blimey, an articulate physical education teacher. My main one as a teenager could barely string a sentence together that made much sense.

Shirtless PE in school, deal with it, like so much else in life. I don't see any other forums out there with the current youth sounding off about the terrors of PE as they see it.

The comment by Alan on 29th July about me.

I think I've made my own personal position clear previously and the comments of mine you repeated speak for themselves I hope. It seems like a very touchy subject here but is nothing that raises comment where I am. Shirts off PE, in the bare chests state is a sometimes aspect of PE where I am, yes, right up until when school broke for summer in July. Showers are required too, and they get taken. But everything nowadays is by consent to a large extent and if I go back to the situations when PE might involve no shirts, it's given as a direct instruction, not a would you like to or not. But that's teaching, giving instruction. As I said previously, anyone is welcome to come privately to express concerns, or even openly if they wanted. Nobody has done this, even privately on the subject of no PE top wearing in all my time. If they did have a problematic severe body dysmorphic image or self esteem problem with being seen or what they looked like I'd definitely prefer them to see me or someone else privately to have a chat about it and find a solution. In the case of the hypothetical student who didn't want to be asked to do any gym in a bare chest then the solution would be simple wouldn't it, don't then, stick your PE t-shirt on then if that solves the concerns. Nobody, well at least me, is going to be forcing deep personal discomfort on anyone mentally. Physically is a different matter, no pain no gain is true broadly accurate if a crude way of stating it.

The same rule I've outlined above to PE kit can also apply to our required showers in PE rule. But no students other than a couple of parents have ever confronted this directly. That probably tells it's own story I hope.

Where Toby was probably correct in his 30 years comment, which is most of my lifetime to date, is that the days when PE took place like some of the older men here have said going back to the 60s & 70s are a lot less common and rarer in general where it was the done thing for every PE lesson in a school gym to look like the associated photo. That is not how it happens now, it's much more sporadic in nature, we have the occasional full class like it, often some of the class, and much of the time it's not even a thing at all. It's also worth saying that many young men do like doing PE without tops and I don't think it's something that should be treated negatively and treated like a big deal, it isn't to most.

Did any of you older guys on here pull your PE teacher aside privately and raise concerns in your own pasts about anything, and what would your own advice be. Alan did you ever consider having a quiet private word with your PE teachers about your own insecurities at the time and what do you think your reception would have been if you did so, if you didn't do so.

Picking up what you say about that individual there Alan reminds me also of Philip Grosset who produced a lot of schools output in the 1970's and 1980's and had this knack of managing to stick in content similar to the cycling film that wasn't strictly necessary to fulfil the point of the films being produced or was overly gratuitous even by the standards of his time, never mind now. I work in the media and in the past have edited and you would probably be quite surprised how much content was taken/filmed and then left out of the final delivery on screen actually. Roughly for every minute made to screen they filmed ten minutes, thus ninety percent is discarded, or sometimes just kept aside, possibly in private collections. An example being some things turning up online from former BBC production staff of shows long considered wiped.

Ian I can't help you with the name of the exercise I'm afraid but I'd quite like to know the answer myself.

Jet, I have no idea of the context in which that very bizarre couple of minutes sits within that film but perhaps it was best also left on the cutting room floor although it did make me smile in an embarrassed way. I can truthfully admit that such effort as that never occurred to me at that age.

It's a cringe for me on that one Jet. What a strange sense of humour they have in Japan. Just weird, not funny.

I guarantee nobody ever has attempted this in a PE lesson no matter where or when you went to school.

Watch it from 1 hour 37 minutes onwards and laugh, cringe or be appalled.

I've heard a lot about the Japanese work ethic in school but this takes some beating for PE.

Maruyama, The Middle Schooler (2013)

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8irk18

Good luck finding any schoolgirls taking school showers in any such films from the past. That fact alone tells you all you need to know about attitudes to boys versus girls regarding things. Young males were not considered worthy or needing of any privacy at one time but we were the ones being judges at school by the size of our tackle, not the girls.

Just as an aside to Robbie and Ian (18th and 31st July), I am genuinely baffled why the film director and writer Anthony Simmons (1922 – 2016), found it necessary to show young boys without their tops on trampolining, then under a shower, to demonstrate the Cycling Proficiency Test!. It seems gratuitous. not so say egregious and voyeuristic. If they wanted to show only boys cycled (but was that the case, even then?), and they were at school they could have been shown in a classroom lesson like maths or English. I can see no reason for it.

Comment by: Louis on 30th July 2023 at 19:48

This was interesting. I never quite saw the point in playing truant from PE myself. All this did was play into the hands of PE teachers and I saw it bring out the worst aspects of them. You can avoid one PE lesson, what about the next one, and the one after that, and so on and on. The bigger question which never got asked and was worth asking was why did some go to great lengths to avoid PE in the first place. That's not a question that got asked much is it.

How many parents even knew what their children were doing in school p.e lessons most of the time out of interest.

Two of my sons are now 41 and 47, so you can do the maths about when they were at school. As soon as the eldest left the youngest started and got a heads up from the eldest, always useful to get the info on teachers, who's liked or not and all the rest of it. Prompted by reading the comments on this history site about old days p.e I just found out that both of them did widespread p.e lessons across the board during their time without the shirts and vests we used to buy each school year and send them in with, nine times out of ten they reckon the whole gym wasn't ever wearing any of the p.e kit tops in their bags. I don't mind but schools ought to just say so if that is their thing rather than stating p.e kits to bring along and then barely utilising them for the intended purpose.


When I was an older boy 11+ at school, and I'm now 74, we had a pristine white indoor p.e kit and always wore it with plimsolls, there was no shirtless p.e in my school, no team skins or any of that. It all seemed quite civilised actually. The only time anyone was seen in a state of undress was in the changing room and we had to be quick about that. Showers were standard obviously, so that was the universally accepted way of the school world irrespective of p.e kits and like the other gentleman has mentioned, importance was placed on proper personal hygiene and a complete body wash in school irrespective of personal privacy concerns or body shyness which hygiene overrode. The p.e lessons I had were well organised and well behaved with few disciplinary problems or troubles regarding lack of interest.

re Robbie 18 July

Thanks for posting the full video. I've only seen the trampolining section before, and wondered what happened after the PE teacher orders "Showers! Run!", a command which made me shiver with dread, as it was given at the of every gym period in our school.

Can anyone remember the proper name for that exercise, hanging from the wall-bars and bringing your legs up to 90 degrees?

We did it as part of circuit training, introduced to our Scottish boys grammar school in the 60s. The other exercises were press-ups, bench lifts (bench hooked over wall-bars and lifted from ground to over your head), squat thrusts, burpees, sit-ups, forty repetitions (at least good attempts) of each. We did the circuit at the start of each period and every month we did a whole period of six circuits. We all of a sudden came to realize why we were shirtless!

Our PE teacher was a no-nonsense Army PTI, who also introduced PE detentions to supplement the gymshoe and tawse. Yes I accepted his approach but would hardly say I approved of it (Mark's comment 28 July) but he had the right to introduce it as a fully qualified teacher and he never crossed the line.

I'm taken by the fact you are willing to call yourself out for an irrational anxiety there Louis in what I thought was a cool post. I also share your view on cricket too. That was also a quite thought provoking final sentence.

Looking back I definitely had an irrational anxiety about not being allowed a top to wear in a PE class, which was commonplace in my time, infact almost permanent for gym at secondary school in the early 80's. Seeing those 4 years of PE like that lying ahead seemed like forever at the time. I bunked a few classes at the time for varying reasons, anticipating doing stuff I didn't want to take part in, barechested PE and naked showers played a big part in that during my debut year in 79/80 which was rife with bunking off PE mostly through feigning sickness and sitting it out rather than being a total no show. There always seemed to be a couple of boys sitting aside, sometimes it was me. I regret that.

However where I possibly differ from some contributors on here who seem to hold a quite strong view or feel a sense of bitterness is that I don't feel any such things, actually quite the reverse, I wish I'd had my older head on my shoulders at that younger age and accepted and got stuck in more without the worrying PE could give me.

None of my PE teachers were dreadful people at all, I liked one or two of them quite a bit but just not the things we did. If there is one thing that does make me unhappy about the past it is the narrow minded attitudes of the time about what kind of sports boys liked doing and the lack of widening it out. Too much being forced out onto the football pitch for instance on the out days, and summer cricket bored the pants off me, standing about doing nothing but fielding and kicking my heels. I remember a few times going out to the sports field, standing still for the whole lesson and simply walking back in, having done literally nothing, and still had the take the shower. It looks like it's been said before and I'll say it again, those showers were mighty important to our PE teachers in the past weren't they, but to be fair I can't get too worked up about all that or the shirtless nature they made us do PE in. It was what it was, and as you suddenly find yourself getting a lot older than you ever thought you'd be the past normally looks ever rosier but PE in school seems to buck that trend for some in a big way.

Rob/Scott:

I was formal because DH decided to use both his forename and surname in his posts, which suggests he likes formality. I have a customer who always refers to himself as "MR ****" on the phone., so being friendly is a non-starter. Give the customer what he wants!.

Comment by: Scott on 29th July 2023 at 18:20
I note and am amused by the way you are referring to 'Mister' Hind almost as if you were one of the pupils at school.



I was just going to say this myself.

I note and am amused by the way you are referring to 'Mister' Hind almost as if you were one of the pupils at school.

This reminds me of the unwavering respect we always had to show to our teachers at all times by addressing them correctly but they didn't really have to show us the same respect when addressing us using our surnames and it was PE that was the worst for it.

I remember sarcastic teachers would sometimes call us Mister if we were doing something wrong like not listening in class.

David, I would remind you of what Mr. Hind wrote back in May:

"Comment by: Nathan Hind on 25th May 2023 at 22:28
I think I'm quite approachable and pupils often have one-to-one contact about a variety of issues with me. What gets worn, or not in PE is rarely a discussion point. Anybody is free to say anything that troubles them at any point. Alone if they wish. The occasional bare chested PE has not cropped up with me ever. Showering has a couple of times with other colleagues, not with pupils but parents wanting reassurance."


Reading that suggests that if boys were bothered he wouldn't press the point. I just want him to clarify that. He is clearly younger than us (I guess in his mid 30s), so it seem unusual to have such old fashioned ideas, if he forces the issue. It would be interesting to know what sort of school he attended himself, and what sort of school he teaches in now - I certainly don't think he would go down well in the very ordinary comprehensive schools where I live now.

But it is for Mr Hind to answer for himself.

One other point I would ask ALL of you to remember, whatever side of the clothing fence you are on. The namby pamby governments this country has had in the past 25 years have decreed that any lad or girl unable to find a job at 16 can be forced to stay on at school till they are 18. 18 year olds are men and women - they were in our day, most certainly they are now. Is it correct or even decent to "dictate" (your word, David, not mine) how they dress and herd them into the showers against their will at the end?. Just to get one thing straight - I prefer to be clean and showered all the time, but for anyone who has a phobia against it, it doesn't mean they are "dirty" it just means they have a problem, like those who can't stand mice or spiders. For Christ's sake lets start treating adults as adults.

To set the scene, I was private school educated between ages eleven and eighteen, 1970-77 in Southampton.

I don't think anyone ever actually chooses the shirtless option at school do they, it's always been one of those decisions that gets made for you, either by one of your teachers or even by one of your others in class if they were choosing a team and selecting a skin or a shirt. I remember selecting a team for my side on a couple of occasions and having to pick a skins side once a teacher had pointed at me and told me I was going to captain a skins side. Both times I did this I was actually outside but it did also happen inside the gym. None of this was any problem to me because I was the kind of kid at home who would hang about shirtless a lot, I'd get up in the morning and come down to the breakfast table in the dining room and eat with the family without getting dressed first, even on school days, often sitting there in just a pair of pants. On school days only getting dressed and ready at the last moment possible before the drive in from another parent who picked me up with her son. I hated the strict school uniform we had to do ourselves up in possibly as much as some others hated taking everything off for P.E. In the summer we were allowed to take our ties off and I got done once for unbuttoning my shirt completely so it hung open. It's interesting to see others my age now with a completely differing viewpoint. There was a teacher I had who used to clap his hands in P.E and shout, shirts off, when we did gym tests and sometimes on the apparatus, but it was quite a random thing. Casting my mind back to it all, we did seem rather a fit bunch of kids and extremely lean with it. The only reason I can think of why it should become a worry for anyone is if they are on the fat side of things alone like that in a class of lean boys but I can't see where the problem lies when you are very similar to everyone around you. My school went very big on bracing shirtless long distance runs in the fresh air of up to ninety minutes duration once in a while which I found rather agreeable myself as someone who liked being outdoors as much as possible. They were not everyone's cup of tea but certainly mine.

We were separated into two separate ability groups based on fitness tests we took and questions we answered when we started. I was in the top ability group, simply known as A. The other being B. Once we were placed into our group that seemed to be that, nobody seemed to change between one group and the other, so if you improved greatly in the lower group you didn't seem to get moved upwards to match your improvement, or vice versa. It was very competitive, even between teachers. There were two changing rooms and which one we used depended on which ability group we had been placed in and that was your one from then on. Showers were compulsory, watched closely and enforced with an iron rod. Group nudity in school was to be as expected as much as doing your times tables, long divisions and algebra in maths and knowing your verbs, adverbs and pronouns in English. I found such things a positive bonding experience and some of these people I shared these intimate school things with are my lifelong friends like no uthers I've had since.

First time poster, read through many of the pages this week though.

Well Ralph I disliked shirtless PE intensely, but wouldn't say it's abusive to make you do it in cases like mine BUT in this day and age (not in mine) I do think to harass and force guys into the showers in school against their will should be considered an abuse if it is an open free for all. I remember how all my PE teachers used to really harass boys in the shower room after PE. What do I mean by harass, well literally standing invading your personal space making you strip down while shouting in your ears. Maybe I was ahead of my time but that never sat quite right with me and that was rather a while ago now in beginning in 1980.

Is it me or does there seem to be something of a divide in attitude between the older guys here who went to school before about 1975 and the younger ones. The forty and fifty year olds seem to be calling things out a bit while the sixty and overs seem to accept and approve of their lot in school.

If you read one of his previous comments you'd already know the answer to that question Alan. Is he not allowed to dictate the terms of his own lessons anymore in your opinion?

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 27th July 2023 at 22:45


As I recall you are a P.E. teacher. Were these July 2023 lessons at the students own request or by diktat?

Comment by: Toby on 23rd July 2023 at 11:05
I'd be amazed if shirtless PE had been a thing in the UK for the last 30 years or more.


It's been a thing this year, 2023 Toby. Infact it's been a thing this month.

If a lad who isn't keen is now told in PE to take whatever top he wears off and go barechested is that now to be considered abusive then?

What about when me and my pals were told to remove everything we had on and shower, is that now retrospectively to be considered abuse too?

My view - NO.